Posted: 2/4/2013 8:45:25 PM EDT
| Making the magazine non-detachable via the bullet buttun deal, or some other mechanical means, would this be a viable alternative for those who are thinking about registering their guns? I mean, then you can take it out to a public range with no worrys. You can easily convert back whenever you want to. Aren't all the evil features OK as long as the gun has a non-detachable 7 round magazine? |
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I wasn't talking about me. And I have too many bolt guns as it is. I'm trying to talk others out of registering. I agree with your reading of the law. The factors only come into play if it's a semi-automatic rifle with a detachable magazine... If you have a fixed magazine, the factors don't matter. I think this is one of those 'you may beat the rap but not the ride' type situations. If you use it at a public range you might get arrested, even if it's in compliance with the law. |
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We don't know yet if something you can rather easily change or circumvent will be sufficient. An SKS can be easily modified to accept detachable mags, and they are legal under the new law. Are they? What if you have the parts to do it on hand? Nassau DA raided a bunch of shops over lose roll pins in collapsible stocks. |
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But what happened in court? That's what counts. And please let me know when the downstate communists start raiding private homes looking for gun parts. Not gonna happen where I live, I doubt even there. No, that's not what counts actually, unless you have $150,000+ to throw at the issue. |
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Yeah right. that's what your lawyer charges. No point talking to you any further. Hi, welcome to the forum. Way to make an entrance. You want to do something questionable, go for it, but don't go pontificating about how only the outcome of a years long and seriously expensive trip through the courts is the only thing that counts. |
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You guys are giving him a hard time. He is looking for ways to beat registration using his brain. You can be part of the I wont register crowd but all it takes is an anonymous call from someone who knows.what you have and you are fucked. You can register and get confiscated later or you can ignore the law and keep your ar hidden rendering it useless. We can all use lessons from our brothers in California. The bullet button makes your ar not have a detachable mag so you can keep your pistol grip and muzzle brake and add a collapsible stock if you want because it wont be classified as an AW by the letter of the law. The bullet button is totally reversible for when the shtf. I for one think it's a better option and a big FUCK YOU to them. It worked in California so it can work here. We can use their own laws against them. Hell we pinned our stocks under the old ban. The bullet button is the same concept.
Now if you want to keep your 30 rounders, you can get a 458 socom upper and keep your 30 rounders loaded with 7 rounds or you can get a block. They are saying that blocking them would be legal if permanant. Permanent is subjective since there is no legal definition of permanent. A block and locktite can be permanent yet reversible if you have the patience and know what you are doing. Our brothers in California got 458 socom base plates put on their 30 rounders making them 10 rounders. There are many California case laws where bullet button users beat the rap. I would bet a jury composed of at least one of us would render an AR with a bullet button legal. Lets stop bashing and look for ways to fuck them with their own laws until the day comes when this shit is stricken. In the meantime lets learn from our brothers in California how they beat the exact same ban minus the 7 round part. They can keep 10 rounds. |
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How did the guys in CA get the bullet button approved? Did a bunch of guys that tried it have to got to jail first before it was deemed acceptable by the state or did the manufacturer of the bullet button get the states approval before they sold it to the public? I feel we need to get an approval from the state of NY for any modifications on our so semi-auto rifles so that they don't meet the definition of an "assault weapon". How we go about doing this I have no idea, but it would take the guess work out of it for sure. It says on the question and answer website that we can modify our gun so that it is not an assault weapon:
Q: If I modify my gun by removing all design characteristics that makes it an assault weapon, do I have to register it? A: No. If you modify your gun so that it is not an assault weapon, you do not have to register it. The modification must be permanent however. This includes, for example, removing the bayonet lug by cutting or grinding, grinding off the threads on the barrel, removing the foregrip so that it cannot be readily reattached, or any change that cannot be reversed through reasonable means. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol1SzjHPFGw This was also reconfirmed at the Erie county meeting, just fast forward to between 11:58 -12:14. The speaker says " If you have an "assault weapon that was legal as of 1/15/13 when this law was passed, you could do one of a couple of things. 1) Register it on line or 2) Permanently modify it so that it doesn't meet the definition" We know that we can modify them, but we need to find out what they consider "permanently modify" and "any change that cannot be reversed through reasonable means". |
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How did the guys in CA get the bullet button approved? Did a bunch of guys that tried it have to got to jail first before it was deemed acceptable by the state or did the manufacturer of the bullet button get the states approval before they sold it to the public? I feel we need to get an approval from the state of NY for any modifications on our so semi-auto rifles so that they don't meet the definition of an "assault weapon". How we go about doing this I have no idea, but it would take the guess work out of it for sure. It says on the question and answer website that we can modify our gun so that it is not an assault weapon: Q: If I modify my gun by removing all design characteristics that makes it an assault weapon, do I have to register it? A: No. If you modify your gun so that it is not an assault weapon, you do not have to register it. The modification must be permanent however. This includes, for example, removing the bayonet lug by cutting or grinding, grinding off the threads on the barrel, removing the foregrip so that it cannot be readily reattached, or any change that cannot be reversed through reasonable means. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol1SzjHPFGw This was also reconfirmed at the Erie county meeting, just fast forward to between 11:58 -12:14. The speaker says " If you have an "assault weapon that was legal as of 1/15/13 when this law was passed, you could do one of a couple of things. 1) Register it on line or 2) Permanently modify it so that it doesn't meet the definition" We know that we can modify them, but we need to find out what they consider "permanently modify" and "any change that cannot be reversed through reasonable means". The NYSP and albany have proven that they won't make a statement on how to comply. Makes it too easy on us underlings to stay legal. |
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How did the guys in CA get the bullet button approved? Did a bunch of guys that tried it have to got to jail first before it was deemed acceptable by the state or did the manufacturer of the bullet button get the states approval before they sold it to the public? I feel we need to get an approval from the state of NY for any modifications on our so semi-auto rifles so that they don't meet the definition of an "assault weapon". How we go about doing this I have no idea, but it would take the guess work out of it for sure. It says on the question and answer website that we can modify our gun so that it is not an assault weapon: Q: If I modify my gun by removing all design characteristics that makes it an assault weapon, do I have to register it? A: No. If you modify your gun so that it is not an assault weapon, you do not have to register it. The modification must be permanent however. This includes, for example, removing the bayonet lug by cutting or grinding, grinding off the threads on the barrel, removing the foregrip so that it cannot be readily reattached, or any change that cannot be reversed through reasonable means. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol1SzjHPFGw This was also reconfirmed at the Erie county meeting, just fast forward to between 11:58 -12:14. The speaker says " If you have an "assault weapon that was legal as of 1/15/13 when this law was passed, you could do one of a couple of things. 1) Register it on line or 2) Permanently modify it so that it doesn't meet the definition" We know that we can modify them, but we need to find out what they consider "permanently modify" and "any change that cannot be reversed through reasonable means". The NYSP and albany have proven that they won't make a statement on how to comply. Makes it too easy on us underlings to stay legal. I don't think we really need any help from the NYSP or Albany on how to comply. As long as the rifle no longer meets the definition of an"assault weapon" (according to what is written in the law) it is no longer an assault weapon. I feel what we really need is a definition of "permanently modified" and "reasonable means" from the NYSP or Albany. This definition would also be helpful in modifying any magazine that is able to hold more then 10 rounds. After the 2000 ban, we were able to modify and still be compliant, how did we know then what was good and not good? Did we just go by what was given to us from the Federal ban? |
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I don't think we really need any help from the NYSP or Albany on how to comply. As long as the rifle no longer meets the definition of an"assault weapon" (according to what is written in the law) it is no longer an assault weapon. I feel what we really need is a definition of "permanently modified" and "reasonable means" from the NYSP or Albany. This definition would also be helpful in modifying any magazine that is able to hold more then 10 rounds. After the 2000 ban, we were able to modify and still be compliant, how did we know then what was good and not good? Did we just go by what was given to us from the Federal ban? It was all a guess based on the federal ban... |
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I don't think we really need any help from the NYSP or Albany on how to comply. As long as the rifle no longer meets the definition of an"assault weapon" (according to what is written in the law) it is no longer an assault weapon. I feel what we really need is a definition of "permanently modified" and "reasonable means" from the NYSP or Albany. This definition would also be helpful in modifying any magazine that is able to hold more then 10 rounds. After the 2000 ban, we were able to modify and still be compliant, how did we know then what was good and not good? Did we just go by what was given to us from the Federal ban? It was all a guess based on the federal ban... True, but at least we had guidelines. No threaded barrels, but we were able to pin and weld on muzzle brakes. No collapsible stocks, but they were okay if they were pinned. We don't have any guidelines as to what's acceptable. |
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I don't think we really need any help from the NYSP or Albany on how to comply. As long as the rifle no longer meets the definition of an"assault weapon" (according to what is written in the law) it is no longer an assault weapon. I feel what we really need is a definition of "permanently modified" and "reasonable means" from the NYSP or Albany. This definition would also be helpful in modifying any magazine that is able to hold more then 10 rounds. After the 2000 ban, we were able to modify and still be compliant, how did we know then what was good and not good? Did we just go by what was given to us from the Federal ban? It was all a guess based on the federal ban... True, but at least we had guidelines. No threaded barrels, but we were able to pin and weld on muzzle brakes. No collapsible stocks, but they were okay if they were pinned. We don't have any guidelines as to what's acceptable. Which is precisely why arbitrarily relying on California work-arounds or drawing our own lines is an at-best questionable practice. |
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I don't think we really need any help from the NYSP or Albany on how to comply. As long as the rifle no longer meets the definition of an"assault weapon" (according to what is written in the law) it is no longer an assault weapon. I feel what we really need is a definition of "permanently modified" and "reasonable means" from the NYSP or Albany. This definition would also be helpful in modifying any magazine that is able to hold more then 10 rounds. After the 2000 ban, we were able to modify and still be compliant, how did we know then what was good and not good? Did we just go by what was given to us from the Federal ban? It was all a guess based on the federal ban... True, but at least we had guidelines. No threaded barrels, but we were able to pin and weld on muzzle brakes. No collapsible stocks, but they were okay if they were pinned. We don't have any guidelines as to what's acceptable. Which is precisely why arbitrarily relying on California work-arounds or drawing our own lines is an at-best questionable practice. I agree 100%. We need to get the okay first and then go from there, but how does one go about getting an okay in writing? |
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I agree 100%. We need to get the okay first and then go from there, but how does one go about getting an okay in writing? Won't happen. Or at least never would have before. This whole SAFE public meeting thing has got me wondering. Before this, it would never happen. |
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There will be a list of weapons and variants. No way of beating that. Wasn't there a list of weapons and variants in the 2000 ban? I'm not being a wise ass, but I really thought there was, maybe not as broad as the new ban, but I thought they mentioned specific weapons and variants of those weapons in the actual law. |
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There will be a list of weapons and variants. No way of beating that. Wasn't there a list of weapons and variants in the 2000 ban? I'm not being a wise ass, but I really thought there was, maybe not as broad as the new ban, but I thought they mentioned specific weapons and variants of those weapons. They did. Somehow, rather improbably, the "or copies of" language meant exact, to the roll marks, copies. Who knows what the future will hold. |
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There will be a list of weapons and variants. No way of beating that. Wasn't there a list of weapons and variants in the 2000 ban? I'm not being a wise ass, but I really thought there was, maybe not as broad as the new ban, but I thought they mentioned specific weapons and variants of those weapons. They did. Somehow, rather improbably, the "or copies of" language meant exact, to the roll marks, copies. Who knows what the future will hold. Well, yeah. Not that improbable... Even though the "spirit" of the 2000 AWB was to ban ALL guns that even LOOKED like an AR15, you can't really do that legally speaking...the legal language is not really possible. You can't write a law that says "Every gun that LOOKS like a 'Colt AR-15 Sporter' is banned." That doesn't work. They tried to say "copies or duplicates" of such guns are banned, but that doesn't work either...since a copy or duplicate has to be EXACT to the measurement, model name, roll mark etc...so anytime a gun maker comes out with an "AR" type lower with a different mag well thickness, or different aluminum thickness, or different roll mark...BOOM...it's legally a different gun. And there are enough AR type manufacturers out there nowadays that making a "FUCK YOU CUOMO" marked lower receiver would be easy, and is PATENTLY and LEGALLY different (albeit small differences). Sorry gun grabbers, you can't just ban ALL guns just because they LOOK like the type of gun you want to ban. This is why they do "feature" bans...it's the only way for them to legislatively ban what they want to ban...but that doesn't always work either...because there are mechanical and cosmetic work arounds. The only real way for them to really gut gun owners is to ban ALL semi-auto guns. THAT would essentially work, but that ain't happenin. This is how I am trying to beat NYC and the NYPD...they ban "ALL AR-15s" - But my gun is not an AR15, it is a Colt Match Target. The NYPD still doesn't want to register it, but technically it is NYC legal...even according to the NJ Attorney General: http://www.njsp.org/about/fire_ag1.html The Colt Match Target Rifle, based on the manufacturer’s specifications, is a new line of rifles and is not part of the AR-15 series, and thus, is not prohibited under N.J.S.A.2 C: 39-1w(1).
Although this new rifle, may resemble the Colt AR-15, there have been substantial changes to the firearm, including the receiver which is not identical to an AR-15 receiver. In addition, because of changes in the configuration of the firearm, the Colt Match Target Rifle is not substantially identical to a prohibited firearm and prohibited under this classification. |
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It's an area that demonstrates how fundamentally stupid the law really is, and concurrently that their end game MUST be to ban all semi-autos. There simply is no other way that they can win. Someone will always build around the feature ban. This is exactly what I was saying, we can modify it so it doesn't meet the definition. The only other problem is what modifications are acceptable? According to davem4p99, "This is how I am trying to beat NYC and the NYPD...they ban "ALL AR-15s" - But my gun is not an AR15, it is a Colt Match Target. The NYPD still doesn't want to register it, but technically it is NYC legal...even according to the NJ Attorney General:" His rifle doesn't have any of the features anymore and they still will not accept that it is not an "assault weapon" granted he is dealing with NYC not NYS, but who's to say NYS won't do the same thing. What is his recourse at this point... Lawsuit? |
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Yes. We need a court, preferably SCOTUS, to smack the ever living shit out of NYS and NYC...that is the only way for recourse.
The NYPD and gun grabbers simply don't understand that they can't ban all AR-15 style guns...the legal language is just not possible. And the NYPD think that "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck" is a legal basis. 
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"True, but at least we had guidelines. No threaded barrels, but we were able to pin and weld on muzzle brakes. No collapsible stocks, but they were okay if they were pinned. We don't have any guidelines as to what's acceptable."
We never had guidelines with the old ban. Nowhere did it say a pinned stock or welded muzzle brake was legal. There was no writing stating what constituted a pinned stock. There was no writing saying it had to be blind pinned and epoxied. A welded muzzle brake can be removed, yet we had it and it was sold that way. The whole country just made its modifications and were good to go. Eventually it became accepted. After the first test case in California, AR's began to be sold with bullet buttons on them at gun stores. They require a tool to take apart just like a A2 stock requires a tool to remove the stock rendering the rifle below legal length. This is no different. Do not ask the NYSP about what is permanent because they do not know and will tell you NO because it is safer for them to do so. Read the law and make your modifications accordingly. Do not go by their website of what is an AW because their website is not law. It is an interpretation made by police who do not know their ass from their elbows.... nothing more. Nowhere on the actual Safe Act is a weapon banned by name. We have case law from other states we can differ to if challenged. Nobody wants to be a test subject but, I sure as hell am not registering or selling what is my legally acquired property so they can come and take it at a later date. I will modify it to be not considered an AW and right now the bullet button seems to be the way to go since I am not getting a new barrel or some ridiculous grip. With the bullet button, I can keep my pistol grip, forward grip, muzzle brake, and unpin my collapsible stock. When out of state the mag lock will be converted to normal. MOLON LABE |
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It's an area that demonstrates how fundamentally stupid the law really is, and concurrently that their end game MUST be to ban all semi-autos. There simply is no other way that they can win. Someone will always build around the feature ban. This is exactly what I was saying, we can modify it so it doesn't meet the definition. The only other problem is what modifications are acceptable? According to davem4p99, "This is how I am trying to beat NYC and the NYPD...they ban "ALL AR-15s" - But my gun is not an AR15, it is a Colt Match Target. The NYPD still doesn't want to register it, but technically it is NYC legal...even according to the NJ Attorney General:" His rifle doesn't have any of the features anymore and they still will not accept that it is not an "assault weapon" granted he is dealing with NYC not NYS, but who's to say NYS won't do the same thing. What is his recourse at this point... Lawsuit? I'm sorry, I can't keep up with all the threads around here...I think the point was that a bullet button was a borderline work-around because it doesn't even make it difficult, in any sense of the word, to eject a magazine. Even if it requires a tool, it's relatively easy to reverse, and with those magnetic things on the market...I just don't want to end up being a test case, and I don't want anyone here to unwillingly be that test case either, and just because of the way it will be spun, I think, in my personal opinion, that this is a device that is ripe to give you a problem. |
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This is getting crazy.
I think there will be some "test cases"...but there is no way they can process the number of cases that they would need to if they charged all the people the they could charge under this law. If it comes to that point...we're talking concentration camps. Also, if they are going to charge a significant number of people...the courts would be so clogged and could not do normal business...such as prosecuting real crimes. That being said...a black helicopter just banked over the house...no shit. I'm totally not kidding. |
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This is getting crazy. I think there will be some "test cases"...but there is no way they can process the number of cases that they would need to if they charged all the people the they could charge under this law. If it comes to that point...we're talking concentration camps. Also, if they are going to charge a significant number of people...the courts would be so clogged and could not do normal business...such as prosecuting real crimes. They won't....it'll be one at a time as people are encountered... |
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Wow...a few minutes after I posted that last post...a black helicopter flew up and banked and kind of swerved and left. Maybe at about 2000 feet.
I'm not paranoid...but that was kind of funny/spooky/weird. I'm in the sticks and we have C-130s fly over lots...but not many black helicopters. Not sure what kind...but it was military...it wasn't the local news copter or Mercy Flight. |
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How did the guys in CA get the bullet button approved? Did a bunch of guys that tried it have to got to jail first before it was deemed acceptable by the state or did the manufacturer of the bullet button get the states approval before they sold it to the public? I feel we need to get an approval from the state of NY for any modifications on our so semi-auto rifles so that they don't meet the definition of an "assault weapon". How we go about doing this I have no idea, but it would take the guess work out of it for sure. It says on the question and answer website that we can modify our gun so that it is not an assault weapon: Q: If I modify my gun by removing all design characteristics that makes it an assault weapon, do I have to register it? A: No. If you modify your gun so that it is not an assault weapon, you do not have to register it. The modification must be permanent however. This includes, for example, removing the bayonet lug by cutting or grinding, grinding off the threads on the barrel, removing the foregrip so that it cannot be readily reattached, or any change that cannot be reversed through reasonable means. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol1SzjHPFGw This was also reconfirmed at the Erie county meeting, just fast forward to between 11:58 -12:14. The speaker says " If you have an "assault weapon that was legal as of 1/15/13 when this law was passed, you could do one of a couple of things. 1) Register it on line or 2) Permanently modify it so that it doesn't meet the definition" We know that we can modify them, but we need to find out what they consider "permanently modify" and "any change that cannot be reversed through reasonable means". We got the bullet button approved through arrest and trial. (I'm Californian) It took a long time for the DOJ to come out and acknowledge the BB to even say it was legal. Personally I couldnt stand the neutered CA ar15s so I never got into just stuck with my SKS and M1 Carbine. However when I got to Missouri I bought an AK and built an AR. |