Posted: 9/4/2015 7:40:14 AM EDT
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Just wanted to say something briefly:
There are a few of us that put on HTF events, and most of us that do know each other pretty well at this point and talk regularly about said events. There is a fair amount of coordination on our parts to get these scheduled so that the most amount of people will be able to attend. It takes time and a little effort, but no one minds giving that up for the greater good of the HTF and to make the events as good as possible. I genuinely enjoy doing it as long as people are into it and it makes sense. We've asked for donations previously and it worked out fine at my Fall event last year because I had a surplus of cash in my bank account, but the donations came up short when Redgoat/Votefromrooftops/Glockfan68 did the spring shoot, and that sucks. I just want to make sure that you folks understand that there is a lot of time, energy, and of course money that goes into putting one of these events on (not to mention the liability we are shouldering should something bad happen), and that we really appreciate your support whether it be physically helping us with the events, RO-ing, money for supplies/food, loaning us a generator, etc. For everyone that has donated in some form or fashion, thank you. You know we appreciate it. That being said, I think if I continue to organize/run the Fall HTF, wherever it may be held, I am probably going to just go to charging per head everyone who attends who isn't donating in any other way. This may piss some people off, but it is honestly the only way to keep this from becoming a burden on us that we don't want to bear and to keep it fair to those who have donated time or money for every event. Again, I love hanging out with you guys, but I just don't have the money available to cover the difference (should there be one) for these events like I did last year. If that means we need to do away with providing food, I'm ok with that. Hell, it was my idea to provide food anyway, so blame me for it if you want. That is all; carry on. Ashley |
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Years ago myself and another put on a shoot at a local range. I seem to remember it was a charge by the head deal and it worked out nicely with no hard feelings.
Thank you for putting these things on. I've stepped away from attending for too long. Time to change that. |
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..First and foremost I want to say 'Thank You' to our organizer (SC) and host (Emu) for the Fall Shoot....and to all who have pitched in so far to get things ready....A pre-emptive thank you to those who haven't made it out to the range to help, but will before the shoot as well....
...FWIW, I think a 'per head' donation the day of the shoot is not, and should not, be a problem....We may have quite a few 'drop ins' that haven't had the opportunity to donate or help out........ I would think that anyone who disagrees has never tried to organize or host such an event and has no idea what goes into it, but if they think it's better to do a get together without a per head fee, let them organize the next one.... ...That being said, might I suggest some type of organized structure be discussed (by those of you who've been here a whole lot longer than me)...Perhaps with something akin to a GA-HTF leader (Chairman/President/Boss/Head Headknocker/whatever term) and a small group of people willing to propose and discuss matters like this?...Maybe elections with one year terms?.. ......After all, a ship without a rudder tends to go around in circles..... 
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Quoted:
..First and foremost I want to say 'Thank You' to our organizer (SC) and host (Emu) for the Fall Shoot....and to all who have pitched in so far to get things ready....A pre-emptive thank you to those who haven't made it out to the range to help, but will before the shoot as well.... ...FWIW, I think a 'per head' donation the day of the shoot is not, and should not, be a problem....We may have quite a few 'drop ins' that haven't had the opportunity to donate or help out........ I would think that anyone who disagrees has never tried to organize or host such an event and has no idea what goes into it, but if they think it's better to do a get together without a per head fee, let them organize the next one.... ...That being said, might I suggest some type of organized structure be discussed (by those of you who've been here a whole lot longer than me)...Perhaps with something akin to a GA-HTF leader (Chairman/President/Boss/Head Headknocker/whatever term) and a small group of people willing to propose and discuss matters like this?...Maybe elections with one year terms?.. ......After all, a ship without a rudder tends to go around in circles..... I'm fine with however the HTF wants to do it. I am merely the one pulling the strings to make it happen. Totally open to all ideas. |
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Quoted:
Years ago myself and another put on a shoot at a local range. I seem to remember it was a charge by the head deal and it worked out nicely with no hard feelings. Thank you for putting these things on. I've stepped away from attending for too long. Time to change that. Yes, get your ass out to one of the events. |
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If I remember correctly from the after event comments from last year, a fairly large amount of people did Donate day of the event IE that was their planned method of payment for whatever reason (that is great and appreciated). I do however on reflection wonder who among us has the funds to front all the expenses prior to the shoot and wait until 'the weekend of' to start receiving donations toward all the funds already laid out. Additionally under this type of payment model what happens to the guy that was able to pay for everything up front if the weekend of the shoot ends up being a bust for whatever reason, say a late season Tropical Storm moves through the area and the whole weekend is rained out? I don't think our benefactor would be stepping up to front the event money the following year. I think there needs to be a means and a system that is fair to the person putting on the Shoot so they have access to some funds as its needed if we are going to have Port-a-Johns and Lunch/Dinner provided on the main day of the shoot (Saturday). If the shoot is just going to be showing up at the donors property and he has a range/place everybody can shoot on without Shitters and no food, then a simple donation when you show up model would work. Last years shoot and this years shoot will not work under that model in my opinion IE if we are going to do it up right with facilities and food, we need a means to collect money prior to and know that X amount of people are coming. Sure some people's schedules are such that they don't know until last minute and I am sure we all want them to come on out and then make a donation day of. But to do it up like last year and this, there needs to be a firm commitment from people prior to the event and that commitment needs to be backed up with a donation/payment prior to the shoot in my opinion. In other words, this is just the nature of the Beast if we want to put on this type of event. So as not to just put out problems or be negative, how about I start with some suggests. I know this will not help for this Shoot, but if everybody agrees that this is the type and level of Shoot that the GA HTF wants to keep putting on, here are some suggestions and I hope they will spark others that have experience in this area to chime in. My first thought is doing it just like the fine people that offer us training in that your spot is not secured until the Event Planner has received your payment IE you are committing to coming and supporting the event by making a Donation well in advance of the Shoot. Another idea is to start planning the Spring Shoot now if we wish to have one and ask local Merchants if they would like to come out and to sponsor the event with a donation to offset the cost of putting it on. I am sure there is the talent in the GA HTF to make it worth their wild and benefit the Shoot. These are just some ideas while I am working on my first cup of coffee. Speaking of planning, if we are going to do more big Shoots after this one and want a shirt for said events, I don't mind helping with that. Additionally if we plan them far enough in advance, I already have two merchants willing to donate to help offset the cost of the shirts. On a side note if the group wishes to create a year round General GA HTF Member Shirt as well, they are willing to donate to that also. All this being said, I donated to last years shoot and was unable to make it due to a pet emergency. No big deal as I feel the money went to a good cause and from the post event comments, everybody had a hell of a good time. Since I couldn't make it, I am glad I was able to donate so others could participate in the great event Ashley and the group put on. No matter what anybody says, several things bring this group together, love of Country, love of Firearms (anything that goes bang), a pleasure in pursuing the Black Rifle, and lastly its always more fun to go shooting with somebody else then just plinking away by yourself! . |
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(snip) My first thought is doing it just like the fine people that offer us training in that your spot is not secured until the Event Planner has received your payment IE you are committing to coming and supporting the event by making a Donation well in advance of the Shoot. Another idea is to start planning the Spring Shoot now if we wish to have one and ask local Merchants if they would like to come out and to sponsor the event with a donation to offset the cost of putting it on. I am sure there is the talent in the GA HTF to make it worth their wild and benefit the Shoot. These are just some ideas while I am working on my first cup of coffee. Speaking of planning, if we are going to do more big Shoots after this one and want a shirt for said events, I don't mind helping with that. Additionally if we plan them far enough in advance, I already have two merchants willing to donate to help offset the cost of the shirts. On a side note if the group wishes to create a year round General GA HTF Member Shirt as well, they are willing to donate to that also. All this being said, I donated to last years shoot and was unable to make it due to a pet emergency. No big deal as I feel the money went to a good cause and from the post event comments, everybody had a hell of a good time. Since I couldn't make it, I am glad I was able to donate so others could participate in the great event Ashley and the group put on. No matter what anybody says, several things bring this group together, love of Country, love of Firearms (anything that goes bang), a pleasure in pursuing the Black Rifle, and lastly its always more fun to go shooting with somebody else then just plinking away by yourself! . ....All very good points I think....Maybe a combined system?....The event planner determines (along with the head chef) an approximate price per head for eats and facilities...based on the average expected turn out....That price per head is then published and those who plan to attend send in their money....For those who aren't sure if they can make it due to work or other obligations would still have the ability to 'pay at the gate' but said cost would be at a slight increase over those who paid in advance....Any money left over could then be used for future events to help offset the up front costs... ..Another advantage is for some of those friends or family that we tell about the shoot that aren't members but show up.....They can 'pay at the gate', see how much fun these things are, actually fire something they've only dreamed about and our numbers grow as they join the HTF so they don't miss out.....Is there anyone here who would walk away from someone who had never fired a MSR who asked you about them?...Let's face it, we love our hobby/collection/moneypit/rights/addiction/whatever you call your weapons and enjoy talking about them...Personally, the look in the eye of someone who's only contact with an AR is what they've seen in movies when they squeeze that trigger the first time.....Every time (for me at least) they squeeze off that first shot, raise their head and turn to me with that grin...you know the grin I'm talking about.....and they're hooked....
...Sponsors would be a great resource for added funds and even 'attractions'....For example maybe Jake would like to bring some of his toys to a shoot (and toss a little money in the hat) with sponsor's names included in the shirt design....(Hey, advertising is still a write off right? )...after all, other than a gun show, where else will those in the firearms related field have a better group to sell to than a shoot with 75-100 people who WANT these items?....
...Lastly, I will refer to my earlier post regarding some form of group, chosen FROM the HTF members and BY the HTF members to oversee such things as planning, finances (who holds any money left over?), sponsors, etc...... I firmly believe that members of the HTF can be trusted with money, and any funds left over will be used appropriately....but for those of the pessimistic or paranoid bent, having a group that can all say 'We have X amount remaining from the last shoot' would dispell any questions IMHO....Also, this group can help spread the load so it doesn't fall so heavy on one person, help make the mundane, niggling little decisions that don't need six pages of discussion over, etc.... ...Just my two cents worth.... 
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Great Points. The merchants I spoke to about putting their Name, Logo or tag line, and phone number on the shirts and thought they might even come out said that its hard to find advertising that 100% goes directly at their customer base so they liked the idea. In all seriousness, I just can't see a consistent great outcome if the Shoot model is changed totally to only a "Pay at the Gate" model. And as was said, getting a discount for paying early while supporting the before expenses and having a higher Gate Fee sounds both fair and like that would work to accomplish the funds requirements. Additionally, I have been around ARs forever, but am relatively new to the GA HTF. Others I have talked with have spoken about what sounded like some great past shoots. Maybe we could get some great ideas from those past shoots IE take all the cream off the top idea wise. The biggest thing besides money that makes these events great are the people resources. Those willing to put the time into both the venue and getting it all organized, so not getting to far off topic, a big thanks to EMU for the place and SouthernCross for planning the event as well as everybody else that pitched in no matter how small the contribution because it requires all of it to make the Shoot a success as a whole! |
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Like Ashley said in an earlier thread, the funds left over(if any) will roll over to the next shoot. So a simple solution in my mind is donate what you can when you can if you plan on attending any events. You may miss this one and make the next or maybe come to both, but you have been chipping in a little at a time all year. If we have a rolling pot that's always being stocked, it's a matter of announcing a shoot and discussing how many and what you need and the funds should be there already.
I had a blast last year and I'm sure it's gonna be a great time this year. If I didn't have something going on every weekend leading up to it and working 6 days a week I would drive the few hours a camp for some work days. Thanks Ashley, emu, and everyone else for putting this on. |
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I am torn in several different directions on this one. The type of events that we seem to be moving toward are far more complex than "a few buddies getting together to shoot." I'm thinking we are currently in that awkward stage of "too big, but not big enough."
I have to walk a fine line out here at the range. The county code administrator goes to my church, and when I asked him about regulations for a range, he graciously looked them up and sent them to me via email. The MAJOR stipulation, that he was emphatic about, was that this MUST be a "private" range, and could not be a public facility operated as a business. My current zoning will not permit such a range. As such, I must be very careful to avoid even the appearance of this range being "hired out" to the GAHTF. IMHO, we also need to be very careful not to turn these into "professional" events due to legal ramifications that profit generating organizations find themselves in. Requiring $$$ to attend kinda means we're being "for profit" unless we file as a "non-profit" and even doing that suggests a level of organization where we might ought to be talking insurance, business licenses, taxes, etc., etc., ad nauseum. I am no lawyer, these are just random impressions that I have from being in business for nearly 25 years. Requiring people to pay up front to attend, sorta takes it out of the donation category, IMHO. I think the most prominent example of worrying about legal exposure is AR15.com not wanting to be associated, in any way, with a local shoot. We should consider ourselves lucky that they allow us to organize these independent shoots on their forum! In today's litigious society, operating something as dangerous as an event hosting up to 100 shooters, of mostly unknown backgrounds, bringing literally hundreds of firearms, many of which are fully automatic and/or NFA type weapons, setting off explosives, and serving food not cooked in FDA compliant surroundings (yeah that sounds silly) is not something to undertake lightly. I am no lawyer, but in this day and age, if you are even nominally cognizant, being involved in hosting, or organizing, such an event, is a real nail-biter kind of experience!!! Personally, while I am looking forward to hosting this shoot out here with GREAT enthusiasm, on another level, I'm nearly scared shitless, at the same time. However, if we were to conduct these events at a "for hire" range, with insurance and regulations to minimize their, and our, legal exposure, I suspect the additional costs, and shooting stipulations, would likely reduce attendance to the point that these events would suffer greatly, and then slowly cease to exist..... SO, what is the answer? I don't know. All I have are some suggestions: For starters, I'm thinking that when the organizer/host requests donations, I would hope EVERYBODY who wants to show up for a fabulous weekend of fun, frolic, eats, and shoots, would break their necks trying to be the first to get $$$ to the guy/s that are doing all the hard work and taking on all the risks. I understand about not wanting to, or not being able to do a paypal. I am one. But, I have a $50 bill in my wallet that has Southerncross' name engraved on it, that he will receive at the start of tomorrow's work day. I also am very willing to use my shop's address as a "dropbox" for checks and money orders, if Southerncross is willing and interested. That way he doesn't have to post his mailing address online. Showing up for workdays is not only fun, but helps build camaraderie within the group. We had 4 folks plus my son working this past Saturday. I'm hoping for many more tomorrow. If you can't make it out for any of the work days, and yeah, I know all about that since I work 6 days/week nearly every week barring holidays, send some $$$ to help with supplies and needs. Gas for weedeaters and mowers, blades for weedeaters, paint for targets and stands, welding for more stands, nuts-bolts-washers for targets, $$$ for more steel targets, gun racks, bush hogging, rental for earth moving equipment to make changes to the range (eventually), a number of picnic tables would be nice (eventually), the list goes on and on. Coming out with your family, or a few friends between shoots to do a little work and enjoy a day's shooting, so that maintenance don't get so far outa hand, would be nice too. Building, and keeping the range up, is no small task. Rotating the responsibility for organizing would be a HUGE help. Working 6 days/week, I simply don't have the time to organize something of this size. I'll be glad to help, and do what I can to make things run smoothly. But a fellow putting one, or more, of these things together, every year, while holding down a full-time job, maintaining a wife, and family, and sanity, is a wee bit onerous. Breaking the responsibilities out into categories would help. We have seen some of that for this Fall Shoot. I think we need many honest, strong, and active leaders to marshal the troops for each of the following categories (more, or less, categories open to discussion!), and to handle all the donations and purchases (if any) for their particular category: Sign-up, Range prep/work days, RO's/Staff at the shoot (though each category Captain should be considered staff at the shoot), Potties, Legal, Food, Entertainment, Clean-up afterward (maybe under range prep), T-shirts, Sponsors, Anything else? That's a LOT of categories, and a LOT of work! Imagine what Southerncross has been going thru trying to hold down most of those jobs himself!!! We have several folks who have jumped in solidly this year T_F, Vote, Draconis, immediately come to mind, (sorry if I missed anyone!) amongst others who have helped at the work day, and will help at the next two upcoming work days. I also will be needing LOTS of help on Sunday to make sure everything is cleaned up, and put back in place. (hint-hint) Now that I have typed a veritable wall of text, I hope that it will be food for thought, and discussion. To take this to the next level, or even maintain the level we have currently achieved, is, I believe, going to take some major organizational efforts, and a willingness to part with some time, and $$$, by the peanut gallery! AND, I hope that EVERYONE will go out of their way to thank Southerncross at the shoot, for the HUGE amount of time, effort, and $$$ that he puts into these events on his own!!!!!! Edit to add: I see some of my suggestions were already posted above, I didn't mean to ignore or steal your ideas! That's what I get for starting a marathon post at 10:15ish, and peck and tap at it between customers over the course of 4 1/2 hours or so!!!! 
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I am torn in several different directions on this one. The type of events that we seem to be moving toward are far more complex than "a few buddies getting together to shoot." I'm thinking we are currently in that awkward stage of "too big, but not big enough." I have to walk a fine line out here at the range. The county code administrator goes to my church, and when I asked him about regulations for a range, he graciously looked them up and sent them to me via email. The MAJOR stipulation, that he was emphatic about, was that this MUST be a "private" range, and could not be a public facility operated as a business. My current zoning will not permit such a range. As such, I must be very careful to avoid even the appearance of this range being "hired out" to the GAHTF. IMHO, we also need to be very careful not to turn these into "professional" events due to legal ramifications that profit generating organizations find themselves in. Requiring $$$ to attend kinda means we're being "for profit" unless we file as a "non-profit" and even doing that suggests a level of organization where we might ought to be talking insurance, business licenses, taxes, etc., etc., ad nauseum. I am no lawyer, these are just random impressions that I have from being in business for nearly 25 years. Requiring people to pay up front to attend, sorta takes it out of the donation category, IMHO. I think the most prominent example of worrying about legal exposure is AR15.com not wanting to be associated, in any way, with a local shoot. We should consider ourselves lucky that they allow us to organize these independent shoots on their forum! In today's litigious society, operating something as dangerous as an event hosting up to 100 shooters, of mostly unknown backgrounds, bringing literally hundreds of firearms, many of which are fully automatic and/or NFA type weapons, setting off explosives, and serving food not cooked in FDA compliant surroundings (yeah that sounds silly) is not something to undertake lightly. I am no lawyer, but in this day and age, if you are even nominally cognizant, being involved in hosting, or organizing, such an event, is a real nail-biter kind of experience!!! Personally, while I am looking forward to hosting this shoot out here with GREAT enthusiasm, on another level, I'm nearly scared shitless, at the same time. However, if we were to conduct these events at a "for hire" range, with insurance and regulations to minimize their, and our, legal exposure, I suspect the additional costs, and shooting stipulations, would likely reduce attendance to the point that these events would suffer greatly, and then slowly cease to exist..... SO, what is the answer? I don't know. All I have are some suggestions: (snipped to save space) ...I'll start by saying I'm not a lawyer, have never played one on TV and didn't sleep at Holiday Inn Express last night, but here goes.... ...I think the key here is the donations, either before or at the shoot, are not REQUIRED to attend...they are donations.....therefore the range is still just Emu's Angry Emu Range, a private property where a BUNCH of his friends all get together a couple of times a year to shoot paper, steel, and 'the shit' ...
...Now, if you show up with empty pockets and empty stomach, you aren't going to be turned away....but if you do that every..single...time, you might get the sharp edge of discussion here and at the shoot, but there is no 'pay to play' or 'for profit' involved..... ...As for sponsors who want to show up and play with this bunch of friends, well, they have a right to join in the fun right?...And, if they make some sales as a result, good for them.... ...In short, I'm not arguing that your take is wrong, but YOU aren't making anything from this......No other person is making anything from this.....No entity is making anything from this.....No one is going to try and write off their donation on their taxes....so I think it would be hard to say this is a business enterprise either for or non profit... ..Of course, the law may say I'm wrong and hopefully some of our legal beagle friends will put their two cents worth in the discussion....and I have been wrong at least once (divorce) 
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...I'll start by saying I'm not a lawyer, have never played one on TV and didn't sleep at Holiday Inn Express last night, but here goes.... ...I think the key here is the donations, either before or at the shoot, are not REQUIRED to attend...they are donations.....therefore the range is still just Emu's Angry Emu Range, a private property where a BUNCH of his friends all get together a couple of times a year to shoot paper, steel, and 'the shit' ...
...Now, if you show up with empty pockets and empty stomach, you aren't going to be turned away....but if you do that every..single...time, you might get the sharp edge of discussion here and at the shoot, but there is no 'pay to play' or 'for profit' involved..... ...As for sponsors who want to show up and play with this bunch of friends, well, they have a right to join in the fun right?...And, if they make some sales as a result, good for them.... ...In short, I'm not arguing that your take is wrong, but YOU aren't making anything from this......No other person is making anything from this.....No entity is making anything from this.....No one is going to try and write off their donation on their taxes....so I think it would be hard to say this is a business enterprise either for or non profit... ..Of course, the law may say I'm wrong and hopefully some of our legal beagle friends will put their two cents worth in the discussion....and I have been wrong at least once (divorce)
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I am torn in several different directions on this one. The type of events that we seem to be moving toward are far more complex than "a few buddies getting together to shoot." I'm thinking we are currently in that awkward stage of "too big, but not big enough." I have to walk a fine line out here at the range. The county code administrator goes to my church, and when I asked him about regulations for a range, he graciously looked them up and sent them to me via email. The MAJOR stipulation, that he was emphatic about, was that this MUST be a "private" range, and could not be a public facility operated as a business. My current zoning will not permit such a range. As such, I must be very careful to avoid even the appearance of this range being "hired out" to the GAHTF. IMHO, we also need to be very careful not to turn these into "professional" events due to legal ramifications that profit generating organizations find themselves in. Requiring $$$ to attend kinda means we're being "for profit" unless we file as a "non-profit" and even doing that suggests a level of organization where we might ought to be talking insurance, business licenses, taxes, etc., etc., ad nauseum. I am no lawyer, these are just random impressions that I have from being in business for nearly 25 years. Requiring people to pay up front to attend, sorta takes it out of the donation category, IMHO. I think the most prominent example of worrying about legal exposure is AR15.com not wanting to be associated, in any way, with a local shoot. We should consider ourselves lucky that they allow us to organize these independent shoots on their forum! In today's litigious society, operating something as dangerous as an event hosting up to 100 shooters, of mostly unknown backgrounds, bringing literally hundreds of firearms, many of which are fully automatic and/or NFA type weapons, setting off explosives, and serving food not cooked in FDA compliant surroundings (yeah that sounds silly) is not something to undertake lightly. I am no lawyer, but in this day and age, if you are even nominally cognizant, being involved in hosting, or organizing, such an event, is a real nail-biter kind of experience!!! Personally, while I am looking forward to hosting this shoot out here with GREAT enthusiasm, on another level, I'm nearly scared shitless, at the same time. However, if we were to conduct these events at a "for hire" range, with insurance and regulations to minimize their, and our, legal exposure, I suspect the additional costs, and shooting stipulations, would likely reduce attendance to the point that these events would suffer greatly, and then slowly cease to exist..... SO, what is the answer? I don't know. All I have are some suggestions: (snipped to save space) ...I'll start by saying I'm not a lawyer, have never played one on TV and didn't sleep at Holiday Inn Express last night, but here goes.... ...I think the key here is the donations, either before or at the shoot, are not REQUIRED to attend...they are donations.....therefore the range is still just Emu's Angry Emu Range, a private property where a BUNCH of his friends all get together a couple of times a year to shoot paper, steel, and 'the shit' ...
...Now, if you show up with empty pockets and empty stomach, you aren't going to be turned away....but if you do that every..single...time, you might get the sharp edge of discussion here and at the shoot, but there is no 'pay to play' or 'for profit' involved..... ...As for sponsors who want to show up and play with this bunch of friends, well, they have a right to join in the fun right?...And, if they make some sales as a result, good for them.... ...In short, I'm not arguing that your take is wrong, but YOU aren't making anything from this......No other person is making anything from this.....No entity is making anything from this.....No one is going to try and write off their donation on their taxes....so I think it would be hard to say this is a business enterprise either for or non profit... ..Of course, the law may say I'm wrong and hopefully some of our legal beagle friends will put their two cents worth in the discussion....and I have been wrong at least once (divorce)
I agree with everything you just said. Mostly I was wanting to avoid the appearance of it being "for pay" and the appearance of it making big $$$, just in case someone does get hurt, and is looking for a payday. Granted anyone can take you to court for ANYTHING, and the bottom line is, you've already lost if you end up in court due to time and spending $$$ on a lawyer so you don't lose EVERYTHING. Not being a lawyer, it seems to me that I have read that there are some protections under GA state law for those individuals who open their properties to outdoor recreational activities, and are not doing so as a business. And even as a business, if the business is NOT negligent, simply by engaging in a somewhat dangerous activity, ie: horseback riding, shooting, etc., you are required to assume some, if not all, of the responsibility just because you showed up to participate. But I might be misremembering a distant dream or nightmare. A GOOD release form will hopefully cover most, if not all, of the stupid accidents which might occur. <fingers crossed> |
| I'll sign anything you want, I'm not looking to screw anybody and that may be the way to go. Just have everyone sign the waiver as they arrive. If a sign is required, as it is for equestrian events(if you have a barn and folks ride horses you have one hanging up I'm sure), I have a good friend that owns a sign shop and I could probably get it made up for a steal. Couldn't hurt to have one hanging up at the range or the entrance, if even for better sleep at night for you. Hell maybe even both. |
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My horses are pasture ornaments, so no worries about riders. However, a sign for the range would be a wonderful, and welcome addition!!!! I don't know what ought to be on it.... That might make an excellent thread in it's own right. I haven't been to enough ranges to have a clue as to what might ought to be on it.
Please enjoy the Angry Emu Range at your own risk. Eye and ear protection must be worn at all times the range is in use. No loaded firearms except for at the firing lines. Chamber flags required for all firearms not at firing lines. Loaded firearms must always be pointed downrange. Only shotguns fired at clay targets to be discharged into the air. Only pistol calibers allowed on pistol berm. No firing at steel target at a range of less than xx' for pistol calibers, and xx yards for rifle calibers. No steel core (or should that be armor piercing?) ammo to be fired at steel targets. Range not responsible for ANY items damaged, lost, or stolen. Shooting firearms is an inherently dangerous activity. The Angry Emu Range, it's owners, and any hosts, and/or organizers, of any event held herewith, are NOT responsible for ANY injuries, dismemberment, or death, that may occur while using these facilities, or while on ANY part of the surrounding premises, due to accident, negligence, or purposeful action, of ANY persons, or which may occur during the use, or misuse, of ANY equipment. I'm sure that's just a start, I have no doubt there's LOTS more that needs to be added!!! Anybody have any additions?!?
Editing to add to regs. |
first off, thank Ashley and Emu for doing this, it's much appreciated from this guy. Ashley is spot on with the donation comments, and i think maybe it needs to be X money per head, but that's just me. honestly who can't come up with 25 or 30 bucks per person with 4 months advanced warning 
anyways i'm looking forward to seeing everyone again
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Emu , for a clarification on the ammo . Just about all I have is the Monarch brand ammo . This is steel core . Is this to be considered armor piercing ???
Also have some of the dreaded Tula brand . Would this be discouraged also. Neither is labeled as armor piercing. gd |
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... Chamber flags required for all firearms not at firing lines. ... Roger that. Just ordered 96 from the CMP e-store for the HTF event(s). Folks that don't regularly shoot highpower or NRA matches may not see the value and consider them a nuisance. Lets be clear what they are for: It isn't because we don't trust anyone - the reason is so RSOs and line officers (as well as all attendees) at an event can visually confirm weapons are clear when watching a large crowd. Thats all. I will pass these out for free, so don't be a hater. |
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Roger that. Just ordered 96 from the CMP e-store for the HTF event(s). Folks that don't regularly shoot highpower or NRA matches may not see the value and consider them a nuisance. Lets be clear what they are for: It isn't because we don't trust anyone - the reason is so RSOs and line officers (as well as all attendees) at an event can visually confirm weapons are clear when watching a large crowd. Thats all. I will pass these out for free, so don't be a hater. Quoted:
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... Chamber flags required for all firearms not at firing lines. ... Roger that. Just ordered 96 from the CMP e-store for the HTF event(s). Folks that don't regularly shoot highpower or NRA matches may not see the value and consider them a nuisance. Lets be clear what they are for: It isn't because we don't trust anyone - the reason is so RSOs and line officers (as well as all attendees) at an event can visually confirm weapons are clear when watching a large crowd. Thats all. I will pass these out for free, so don't be a hater. Sounds good to me. Its a little hard to keep up with as many folks as we had last year at my place without flags. |
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I have been slacking this go round with donation, I will get mine to you in the next week or earlier SC.
Also I know last year was more a "donate this much or more" type deal which worked out better. Hopefully donations can cover it, because I know the planning and the time taken from all involved is a lot and it has always been a blast. See y'all in a couple weeks. |
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I have been slacking this go round with donation, I will get mine to you in the next week or earlier SC. Also I know last year was more a "donate this much or more" type deal which worked out better. Hopefully donations can cover it, because I know the planning and the time taken from all involved is a lot and it has always been a blast. See y'all in a couple weeks. Looking forward to having all of you guys out there. Make sure Tim #2 shows up. I think next year I'm going to do things a little differently with the original thread and how donations are done. |
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I would also include a safety glass requirement at all times if you are on site and the range is not cold. I have only been to two shoots but both times saw people taking off glasses while people were shooting. DUH!!! What a rookie mistake to leave off eye and ear protection!!!! 
GREAT CATCH!!!!
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Emu, what kind of garbage are you trying to pull with this ammo banning i go and buy a M82A1 with 1k of API 50bmg and now i can't bring it  
j/k LOL I actually don't know what types of ammo might be detrimental to use on AR500 steel. I've heard anywhere from high speed lead ammo at too close of a range, to no steel core at all, to just no AP, to AR500? NOTHING can hurt that stuff.... 
Any and all real world experience is greatly appreciated!!!
Vote, I'll start looking around or some pie plates to hang out there for you to perforated with WHATEVER ammo you care to bring!!!!
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I don't typically force people to wear eye pro. When you sign the waiver to get on site you are assuming all of the responsibility for your own safety, and that includes the saftey of your eyes and ears. Having it as a rule but not necessarily strictly enforcing it, especially when well away from the firing line/s, might be a good compromise. That way, if there is an injury it could be pointed out that they were breaking the rules, as a form of defense. Just my 2¢ |
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Just wanted to say something briefly: There are a few of us that put on HTF events, and most of us that do know each other pretty well at this point and talk regularly about said events. There is a fair amount of coordination on our parts to get these scheduled so that the most amount of people will be able to attend. It takes time and a little effort, but no one minds giving that up for the greater good of the HTF and to make the events as good as possible. I genuinely enjoy doing it as long as people are into it and it makes sense. We've asked for donations previously and it worked out fine at my Fall event last year because I had a surplus of cash in my bank account, but the donations came up short when Redgoat/Votefromrooftops/Glockfan68 did the spring shoot, and that sucks. I just want to make sure that you folks understand that there is a lot of time, energy, and of course money that goes into putting one of these events on (not to mention the liability we are shouldering should something bad happen), and that we really appreciate your support whether it be physically helping us with the events, RO-ing, money for supplies/food, loaning us a generator, etc. For everyone that has donated in some form or fashion, thank you. You know we appreciate it. That being said, I think if I continue to organize/run the Fall HTF, wherever it may be held, I am probably going to just go to charging per head everyone who attends who isn't donating in any other way. This may piss some people off, but it is honestly the only way to keep this from becoming a burden on us that we don't want to bear and to keep it fair to those who have donated time or money for every event. Again, I love hanging out with you guys, but I just don't have the money available to cover the difference (should there be one) for these events like I did last year. If that means we need to do away with providing food, I'm ok with that. Hell, it was my idea to provide food anyway, so blame me for it if you want. That is all; carry on. Ashley I'm finally going to chime in on this one. If money is a problem, how about doing this cheaper? Can we install permanent outhouses out there? I bought mine for $50 used. I used a chainsaw to cut out the bottom. I dug a big hole with a posthole digger and it is still going strong 10+ years later. It doesn't fill up, think compost. Every couple of years I fill the hole with water and all the solids settle out. 2 used porta-potties.... $100, renting a 2 man posthole digger for 2 hours....$50? and they would be good for a long time. TP and lime would be about $10 per shoot. Figure 4 hours of hard work, and they would be done. How much are you spending on rentals? Food... switch to byo or potluck. Have a sign up. Assign someone to be in charge of it? I bet there are a few people who would be willing to smoke a butt or 2, but not for 70 people. Same for the sammich makers... They will make large tray of something, but not 4 large trays of something. Use cash donations to reimburse people who make food and need the money back. Drinks.... BYO Range work - Looks like you are ok with that one. HTF is usually very willing to come out and put in sweat equity. If you can get someone to mow it twice a year, the prep work for a shoot would be much less. Targets - buy once, cry once... until it gets destroyed. Then collect 4 cents per pound at the scrap yard. Once established, very little upkeep and cost. T-shirts.... add $3-$5 per shirt if you are selling shirts for the shoot. The extra can go in the slush fund to pay for TP, lime, spray paint, food, utensils, plates, napkins.... Donations.... Fortunately, you (southerncross) do get lots of cash donations. brass.... I am guessing there will be about 100 pounds of brass / empties for the shoot. Figure about 30-40% brass, 60% steel. Of the 30-40 pounds of brass, probably 2/3 will be reloadable. Sell the brass and scrap and put the money towards targets. It will take many hours to sort, count, and sell, but you can get some $ back. Or see if someone wants to buy the lot at the end of the shoot?? (current scrap prices are 4 cents/# for steel, and 70 cents/# for brass... so maybe $30 for the lot at scrap prices... maybe $100 net for sort n sell) this is what it feels like to be the host...         
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I don't know if we can put permanent outhouses out here, but I suspect that it'd be far easier to ask for forgiveness, than to ask for permission....
I'd have no problem installing a couple in the woods, where they'd be "outa sight, outa mind" just a wee (no pun intended ) bit away from the range. For all the usage they'd get, I can't imagine it to be a problem. Lime is your friend! Anyone know where to get a couple of used porta-potties?
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I don't know if we can put permanent outhouses out here, but I suspect that it'd be far easier to ask for forgiveness, than to ask for permission....
I'd have no problem installing a couple in the woods, where they'd be "outa sight, outa mind" just a wee (no pun intended ) bit away from the range. For all the usage they'd get, I can't imagine it to be a problem. Lime is your friend! Anyone know where to get a couple of used porta-potties? If they are in the woods, they should be off the easement. I just stopped at one of the rental places off of I-85 on a Friday afternoon - as I was headed out to camp. I asked for a deer camp special. One with a cracked bottom. Bingo. $50 and into the truck it went. I will say you get a lot of looks driving out I-20 with one of those in the back of your truck. Don't forget a tie down strap!
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I don't know if we can put permanent outhouses out here, but I suspect that it'd be far easier to ask for forgiveness, than to ask for permission....
I'd have no problem installing a couple in the woods, where they'd be "outa sight, outa mind" just a wee (no pun intended ) bit away from the range. For all the usage they'd get, I can't imagine it to be a problem. Lime is your friend! Anyone know where to get a couple of used porta-potties? As I still have not heard back from my porta-john contact on pricing, I'll call Tuesday and also find out if they have any damaged units they're willing to donate or sell....Worst case, about $100 worth of material I don't have laying around and one good workday, plus two toilet seats and we're in business.....I might even be able to lay my hands on a two man auger with 10"-12" bits to go 4'-6' deep for the pit....
Emu, if you know someone you can ask, you might want to check on any code violations with installing them out there....or just hope no one who cares notices
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| So a question and my thoughts on everything. How much does it cost to put on a shoot? Just a ballpark average so we know what we need to work towards. teufel_hunden said we may have an in with getting some sponsors, I think we should really look into this and maybe tack on a few bucks per shirt to go in an HTF fund. Maybe we can elect a treasurer or something like that so give out funds from a single PayPal account or something like that that we can all donate to year around. |
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As I still have not heard back from my porta-john contact on pricing, I'll call Tuesday and also find out if they have any damaged units they're willing to donate or sell....Worst case, about $100 worth of material I don't have laying around and one good workday, plus two toilet seats and we're in business.....I might even be able to lay my hands on a two man auger with 10"-12" bits to go 4'-6' deep for the pit....
Emu, if you know someone you can ask, you might want to check on any code violations with installing them out there....or just hope no one who cares notices Quoted:
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I don't know if we can put permanent outhouses out here, but I suspect that it'd be far easier to ask for forgiveness, than to ask for permission....
I'd have no problem installing a couple in the woods, where they'd be "outa sight, outa mind" just a wee (no pun intended ) bit away from the range. For all the usage they'd get, I can't imagine it to be a problem. Lime is your friend! Anyone know where to get a couple of used porta-potties? As I still have not heard back from my porta-john contact on pricing, I'll call Tuesday and also find out if they have any damaged units they're willing to donate or sell....Worst case, about $100 worth of material I don't have laying around and one good workday, plus two toilet seats and we're in business.....I might even be able to lay my hands on a two man auger with 10"-12" bits to go 4'-6' deep for the pit....
Emu, if you know someone you can ask, you might want to check on any code violations with installing them out there....or just hope no one who cares notices I'm thinking off behind the wooded opening would be an excellent place to plant a couple of relaxation stations. Out of the way, not easily noticed, and hidden from prying eyes. As far as I'm concerned these are simply modified porta-potties, not outhouses!
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Ok, I'll try to address a few things at once here:
How much does it take to put on a shoot? Roughly $750-1k depending on how many people you're doing it for and how extravagant you get. The first year at a place is always the most expensive because some of that money goes to permanent fixtures and infrastructure. Can you do it for less? Obviously. We were just trying to meet the level of quality I felt like everyone deserved. Gahunter95, you are absolutely right, we can definitely do them cheaper and that is an option. We originally decided to do the food at the urging of a substantial number of folks. We've basically shot from the hip on that so far and while it worked well for the Fall shoot last year (mainly because I had the extra money to eat the over run), it didn't work out as well for the Spring shoot. Turn out was lower there as well, so that's to blame for some of it. I keep forgetting about buying a used port a john. Thats a great idea. Since Emu is on board with it and we saved a ton of money scavenging stuff to build the fire pit, I don't see why that can't be in the budget. We have a lot of steel at Emu's already, so that is covered. The benches Draconis has built are going to awesome and are just where we need them. The grill only lacks the grate and the steel, amd we will know whether we have that covered shortly. I'm open to this going whichever direction everyone wants it to go in; I'm just trying to put on the best event I can with what I'm given. |
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I hate typing; so I'm gonna keep this short. I agree with GH95's take on running a shoot. There are some things that I'm gonna do different for the spring shoot. I'll get with SC, Emu, and GH95 and see if we can come up with a plan on organizing and running these events. I am willing to take a leading role in the herding of the cats. ;) Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
| Maybe we still do a MOA shirt where we sell ad space. Say Joe Blows rifle works spends $150 to get their logo name and number on all of the shirts. that money goes into the shoot fund and we buy the shirts like normal. I think that this year it should be the "LaRue Tactical MOA all Day Challenge" but if this becomes a yearly thing we could include a sponsors name in the title. Just thinking out loud. |
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I hate typing; so I'm gonna keep this short. I agree with GH95's take on running a shoot. There are some things that I'm gonna do different for the spring shoot. I'll get with SC, Emu, and GH95 and see if we can come up with a plan on organizing and running these events. I am willing to take a leading role in the herding of the cats. ;) Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile You guys know I don't mind helping any way I can. Herding cats can be a challenge.
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So a question and my thoughts on everything. How much does it cost to put on a shoot? Just a ballpark average so we know what we need to work towards. teufel_hunden said we may have an in with getting some sponsors, I think we should really look into this and maybe tack on a few bucks per shirt to go in an HTF fund. Maybe we can elect a treasurer or something like that so give out funds from a single PayPal account or something like that that we can all donate to year around. It's really hard to put an exact number on it. Without going full accountant on it, I would say I am out of pocket several hundred for each shoot, and I don't deal with food or drinks at all. The early ones were more expensive as the range was being built then. Having a treasurer would be interesting, but this year we have 5 shoots at 3 locations (3 down, 2 to go). I don't know how one would divide everything unless each donation was earmarked to an event or to a range. I know I certainly wouldn't want to be a treasurer! |
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Maybe we still do a MOA shirt where we sell ad space. Say Joe Blows rifle works spends $150 to get their logo name and number on all of the shirts. that money goes into the shoot fund and we buy the shirts like normal. I think that this year it should be the "LaRue Tactical MOA all Day Challenge" but if this becomes a yearly thing we could include a sponsors name in the title. Just thinking out loud. I was trying to get shirts done for the MOA shoot. It was going to be a surprise at the shoot. $20/shirt and nothing too fancy. I went outside the htf to get help with the artwork, as I thought they had enough going on with the htf shirt and possibly a fall shoot shirt. Needless to say I am still waiting on the artwork.
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Quoted: ....All very good points I think....Maybe a combined system?....The event planner determines (along with the head chef) an approximate price per head for eats and facilities...based on the average expected turn out....That price per head is then published and those who plan to attend send in their money....For those who aren't sure if they can make it due to work or other obligations would still have the ability to 'pay at the gate' but said cost would be at a slight increase over those who paid in advance....Any money left over could then be used for future events to help offset the up front costs... ..Another advantage is for some of those friends or family that we tell about the shoot that aren't members but show up.....They can 'pay at the gate', see how much fun these things are, actually fire something they've only dreamed about and our numbers grow as they join the HTF so they don't miss out.....Is there anyone here who would walk away from someone who had never fired a MSR who asked you about them?...Let's face it, we love our hobby/collection/moneypit/rights/addiction/whatever you call your weapons and enjoy talking about them...Personally, the look in the eye of someone who's only contact with an AR is what they've seen in movies when they squeeze that trigger the first time.....Every time (for me at least) they squeeze off that first shot, raise their head and turn to me with that grin...you know the grin I'm talking about.....and they're hooked.... ...Sponsors would be a great resource for added funds and even 'attractions'....For example maybe Jake would like to bring some of his toys to a shoot (and toss a little money in the hat) with sponsor's names included in the shirt design....(Hey, advertising is still a write off right? )...after all, other than a gun show, where else will those in the firearms related field have a better group to sell to than a shoot with 75-100 people who WANT these items?.......Lastly, I will refer to my earlier post regarding some form of group, chosen FROM the HTF members and BY the HTF members to oversee such things as planning, finances (who holds any money left over?), sponsors, etc...... I firmly believe that members of the HTF can be trusted with money, and any funds left over will be used appropriately....but for those of the pessimistic or paranoid bent, having a group that can all say 'We have X amount remaining from the last shoot' would dispell any questions IMHO....Also, this group can help spread the load so it doesn't fall so heavy on one person, help make the mundane, niggling little decisions that don't need six pages of discussion over, etc.... ...Just my two cents worth.... Quoted: Quoted: (snip) My first thought is doing it just like the fine people that offer us training in that your spot is not secured until the Event Planner has received your payment IE you are committing to coming and supporting the event by making a Donation well in advance of the Shoot. Another idea is to start planning the Spring Shoot now if we wish to have one and ask local Merchants if they would like to come out and to sponsor the event with a donation to offset the cost of putting it on. I am sure there is the talent in the GA HTF to make it worth their wild and benefit the Shoot. These are just some ideas while I am working on my first cup of coffee. Speaking of planning, if we are going to do more big Shoots after this one and want a shirt for said events, I don't mind helping with that. Additionally if we plan them far enough in advance, I already have two merchants willing to donate to help offset the cost of the shirts. On a side note if the group wishes to create a year round General GA HTF Member Shirt as well, they are willing to donate to that also. All this being said, I donated to last years shoot and was unable to make it due to a pet emergency. No big deal as I feel the money went to a good cause and from the post event comments, everybody had a hell of a good time. Since I couldn't make it, I am glad I was able to donate so others could participate in the great event Ashley and the group put on. No matter what anybody says, several things bring this group together, love of Country, love of Firearms (anything that goes bang), a pleasure in pursuing the Black Rifle, and lastly its always more fun to go shooting with somebody else then just plinking away by yourself! . ....All very good points I think....Maybe a combined system?....The event planner determines (along with the head chef) an approximate price per head for eats and facilities...based on the average expected turn out....That price per head is then published and those who plan to attend send in their money....For those who aren't sure if they can make it due to work or other obligations would still have the ability to 'pay at the gate' but said cost would be at a slight increase over those who paid in advance....Any money left over could then be used for future events to help offset the up front costs... ..Another advantage is for some of those friends or family that we tell about the shoot that aren't members but show up.....They can 'pay at the gate', see how much fun these things are, actually fire something they've only dreamed about and our numbers grow as they join the HTF so they don't miss out.....Is there anyone here who would walk away from someone who had never fired a MSR who asked you about them?...Let's face it, we love our hobby/collection/moneypit/rights/addiction/whatever you call your weapons and enjoy talking about them...Personally, the look in the eye of someone who's only contact with an AR is what they've seen in movies when they squeeze that trigger the first time.....Every time (for me at least) they squeeze off that first shot, raise their head and turn to me with that grin...you know the grin I'm talking about.....and they're hooked.... ...Sponsors would be a great resource for added funds and even 'attractions'....For example maybe Jake would like to bring some of his toys to a shoot (and toss a little money in the hat) with sponsor's names included in the shirt design....(Hey, advertising is still a write off right? )...after all, other than a gun show, where else will those in the firearms related field have a better group to sell to than a shoot with 75-100 people who WANT these items?.......Lastly, I will refer to my earlier post regarding some form of group, chosen FROM the HTF members and BY the HTF members to oversee such things as planning, finances (who holds any money left over?), sponsors, etc...... I firmly believe that members of the HTF can be trusted with money, and any funds left over will be used appropriately....but for those of the pessimistic or paranoid bent, having a group that can all say 'We have X amount remaining from the last shoot' would dispell any questions IMHO....Also, this group can help spread the load so it doesn't fall so heavy on one person, help make the mundane, niggling little decisions that don't need six pages of discussion over, etc.... ...Just my two cents worth.... If there is to be ongoing events, it is definitely worthwhile to have some "leftover" cash for that jacked up thing nobody expected to happen(or not happen) so the day can be saved without having the organizer have to dig into the grocery money. The day the organizer is left holding the bag for too much is potentially the last day that the event will happen. I know HTF shoots are not punk rock shows, and that there are quite a few of you guys that plan stuff all the time, but if any organizers need a little general help on this sort of thing, I can offer some help if asked. (By the way, I think volunteer RO shifts are an awesome idea, we are all pretty safe shooters, but it is hard to keep track of a lot of stuff while you are shooting, and unfair to expect any one person or the organizer to have to not shoot because they are busy being the guy keeping everyone safe) |
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Quoted: Sounds good to me. Its a little hard to keep up with as many folks as we had last year at my place without flags. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ... Chamber flags required for all firearms not at firing lines. ... Roger that. Just ordered 96 from the CMP e-store for the HTF event(s). Folks that don't regularly shoot highpower or NRA matches may not see the value and consider them a nuisance. Lets be clear what they are for: It isn't because we don't trust anyone - the reason is so RSOs and line officers (as well as all attendees) at an event can visually confirm weapons are clear when watching a large crowd. Thats all. I will pass these out for free, so don't be a hater. Sounds good to me. Its a little hard to keep up with as many folks as we had last year at my place without flags. Chamber flags are one of the best range tools ever. I have a stack of them too, and will order extra for the next HTF shoot I attend and pass them out. Looking down a line of rifles with flags, it is really easy to see any that are not "safe" from a distance. |
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I don't typically force people to wear eye pro. When you sign the waiver to get on site you are assuming all of the responsibility for your own safety, and that includes the saftey of your eyes and ears. Eye and ear pro should be highly recommended but not mandatory. That's the way it is at most ranges I shoot. I never wear eye pro shooting highpower matches anywhere. River Bend, Oak Ridge, Ft Benning, Ft Gordon, Camp Perry,... |
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I was trying to get shirts done for the MOA shoot. It was going to be a surprise at the shoot. $20/shirt and nothing too fancy. I went outside the htf to get help with the artwork, as I thought they had enough going on with the htf shirt and possibly a fall shoot shirt. Needless to say I am still waiting on the artwork.
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Maybe we still do a MOA shirt where we sell ad space. Say Joe Blows rifle works spends $150 to get their logo name and number on all of the shirts. that money goes into the shoot fund and we buy the shirts like normal. I think that this year it should be the "LaRue Tactical MOA all Day Challenge" but if this becomes a yearly thing we could include a sponsors name in the title. Just thinking out loud. I was trying to get shirts done for the MOA shoot. It was going to be a surprise at the shoot. $20/shirt and nothing too fancy. I went outside the htf to get help with the artwork, as I thought they had enough going on with the htf shirt and possibly a fall shoot shirt. Needless to say I am still waiting on the artwork.
I'm in for a shirt,.I'll get you the cash Saturday and just pick it up whenever they get in. The idea of a treasurer probably isn't the most practical, I certainly wouldn't want the job. |