[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Legislative Report #20 (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 5/11/2012 10:10:07 AM EDT
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Legislative Report #20 is now online.
Next week's legislative agenda: Senate Codes, Tuesday May 15 S-1427, Proposes a constitutional amendment protecting the right of the people to keep and bear arms for traditionally recognized purposes. Senate EnCon, Tuesday May 15 S-6849, Authorizes big game hunting in Albany county with a pistol, rifle, shotgun, crossbow or long bow. |
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Quoted: CoBIS was repealed this year. That's a big deal. You have nothing to complain about. Respectfully sir, I would not feel it were my place to tell another citizen of this country or state what they have, or do not have to complain about. It is reasonable to applaud the progresses that have been made,and to thank the people who push relentlessly to make these things happen, while in the same breath still b*tch about all the other stupidity that abounds in this state. Even if I were on the front lines of the fight to preserve our fragile 2nd amendment rights. |
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CoBIS was repealed this year. That's a big deal. You have nothing to complain about. ok, if it is going nowhere....why bother even posting it then? If you want to post something about a bill, know it is going nowhere....what is your point? To attack people who respond??? Doesn't make sense to me. |
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Quoted: CoBIS was repealed this year. That's a big deal. You have nothing to complain about. The archaic NYS pistol licensing/registration system and the arbitrary/capacious rules/regulations/fees of county pistol licensing agencies and licensing officers along repeal of the NY AWB are my "big deal" priorities. CoBIS was way down on my list of importance for repeal. I don't get why it would be considered a big deal to anyone. |
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The archaic NYS pistol licensing/registration system and the arbitrary/capacious rules/regulations/fees of county pistol licensing agencies and licensing officers along repeal of the NY AWB are my "big deal" priorities. We are not getting a big ticket item like that right now. CoBIS was way down on my list of importance for repeal. I don't get why it would be considered a big deal to anyone.
The Governor and legislature admitted one of their gun control laws did not work. When was the last time you heard that happen? 5 years ago they'd regularly put up a dozen or so bad bills in the Assembly and file motions for discharge in the Senate. It's now down to mainly one bill, microstamping, getting any attention and they're having problems with that in the Assembly. This is a very big deal. |
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Quoted: The Governor and legislature admitted one of their gun control laws did not work. When was the last time you heard that happen? 5 years ago they'd regularly put up a dozen or so bad bills in the Assembly and file motions for discharge in the Senate. It's now down to mainly one bill, microstamping, getting any attention and they're having problems with that in the Assembly. This is a very big deal. In that perspective I agree that the repeal was a "big deal". Other than that CoBIS was more of an inconvenience/unnecessary cost and was easily circumvented by shipping a "used" handgun to a NY dealer. I wonder what Pataki has to say about the repeal of one of the two key laws of his five law legislation package that contributed to his downfall as Governor and subsequent failed political career at the national level. |
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The archaic NYS pistol licensing/registration system and the arbitrary/capacious rules/regulations/fees of county pistol licensing agencies and licensing officers along repeal of the NY AWB are my "big deal" priorities. We are not getting a big ticket item like that right now. Why isn't anyone even trying?? Particularly with the AWB ban. It violates the actual wording of DC vs Heller directly and since the sunset of the federal ban, it subjects law abiding citizens to potential police harassment and felony arrests and prosecutions! And no one is even trying??? DC vs. Heller: "The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition—in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute—would fail constitutional muster. " That also perfectly describes what is banned under the AWB. Perfectly. It bans an entire class of arms that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Also, NY is one of what, two, three states that require a permit to OWN a handgun? Since these permits are arbitrarily given, that not only violates the above, but the following: "Because Heller conceded at oral argument that the D. C. licensing law is permissible if it is not enforced arbitrarily and capriciously, the Court assumes that a license will satisfy his prayer for relief and does not address the licensing requirement. Assuming he is not disqualified from exercising Second Amendment rights, the District must permit Heller to register his handgun and must issue him a license to carry it in the home. Pp. 56–64." The above can be used to make NY a shall issue state or get rid of the requirement to obtain a permit to own handguns. And again...no one is trying? What are you waiting for? For Cuomo to leave office? Cuomo has political aspirations and knows that anti-gun stuff is deadly to that. What if his successor is some moron who doesn't have any aspirations and will not give a shit about stomping on the 2nd A? |
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How about the high cap ban? It's uneforceable in most cases and wastes police resources and potentially subjects law abiding people to arrest and prosecution despite having comited no crime. The worst part is, it subjects law abiding people to arrest, prosecution, prison and worse for UNINTENTIONALLY violating the law, like when some idiot in a gun store believes you can use a post ban high cap in a preban gun, or when someone buys something he or she was told is a preban mag that turns out to be post ban?
The feds knew this and required mags to be marked. NY can't do this. Therefore, the law is dangerous, irresponsible, and it has to go. But...NO ONE IS TRYING. I've given thousands of dollars over the years to 2A groups. I donate to the 2AF, GOA, NRA, NYSRPA regularly. I'm doing my part. DO YOURS. |
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Why isn't anyone even trying?? I'm not going to waste my time pushing an issue that I know will not go anywhere right now. We did have a bill a few years back that would have gotten rid of NYS gun laws. ALL of it. It was introduced in just the Assembly promptly died without any action. What are you waiting for?
Because I don't have the political clout to make demands to the legislature like you want. Nobody does. We've had legislators come right out and say one of the big problems is that gun owners think they can ask for everything and then get it. That is not how our system functions. |
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So who do we have to buy? Lets take up a collection www.nysrpa-pvf.org |
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Why isn't anyone even trying?? I'm not going to waste my time pushing an issue that I know will not go anywhere right now. We did have a bill a few years back that would have gotten rid of NYS gun laws. ALL of it. It was introduced in just the Assembly promptly died without any action. What are you waiting for?
Because I don't have the political clout to make demands to the legislature like you want. Nobody does. We've had legislators come right out and say one of the big problems is that gun owners think they can ask for everything and then get it. That is not how our system functions. I'm not talking about the legislators. Screw the legislators. I'm talking about the courts!! NYS's AWB VIOLATES DC vs Heller. It violates it! Completely and totally! And then there is the other stuff I mentioned. Here is my suggestion. Start a fund SPECIFICALLY for this lawsuit. Get together with the 2nd Amendment Foundation and sue the crap out of NYS. Lose in the NY courts, appeal and eventually win, because you can't have a law that violates a SCOTUS ruling directly. What say you? |
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too roundabout...I'm talking straight up cash in a suitcase to the right guy. Quoted:
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NYS's AWB VIOLATES DC vs Heller. It violates it! Completely and totally! That is your opinion only and you have no case law to back it up. Do you see NRA, SAF or anyone else challenging similar laws in CA, MD? No. There is a reason for that. It's been a while since I checked in on it, but doesn't Heller II specifically deal with the banning of weapons by class? Richards v. Harris, a current SAF suit in CA, apparently deals with CA's AWB, though I haven't done the reading on it. I don't know if there is really a reason beyond the strategy other organizations have adopted to pursue handgun issues and pick off the low hanging fruit first. |
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too roundabout...I'm talking straight up cash in a suitcase to the right guy. 1. Bribery is illegal. 2. There is not just one guy. 3. Bloomberg tried that approach with the Senate Republicans to get microstamping and they told him to shove it. I don't know if there is really a reason beyond the strategy other organizations have adopted to pursue handgun issues and pick off the low hanging fruit first.
Because Heller is not as all encompassing as you might think. It did not void all gun laws and left the door wide open for lots of them with the reasonable restrictions clause. NRA is trying to build up good case law with certain cases around the country. That is their strategy. |
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NYS's AWB VIOLATES DC vs Heller. It violates it! Completely and totally! That is your opinion only and you have no case law to back it up. Do you see NRA, SAF or anyone else challenging similar laws in CA, MD? No. There is a reason for that. They are doing it in California. How will we feel if California gets rid of their AWB before we do?? Whether they'll make it or not, at least they are doing something. |
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NYRKBA, In all of this, thank you for your continuing efforts. They are appreciated and noticed. Indeed, very much so. But I want more. Maybe that isn't fair, but it just is. I want the AWB gone. I want to not need a stupid permit to own a handgun. Since 90% of the people in this country already have that, I don't think it's too much to ask. |
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They are doing it in California. How will we feel if California gets rid of their AWB before we do?? Whether they'll make it or not, at least they are doing something. Just for the sake of argument, lets say whatever outcome you think is best does happen in CA. The very next day the CA legislature will draft new legislation which would accomplish 99% what the old law does. That is what DC and Chicago did and we have been told by legislators they do not care what the courts say, they will go ahead and do whatever they want. There is no simple magic way to make what you want to happen, either through the courts or through the legislature. It took 30+ years of legal scholarship just to get somewhat good SCOTUS decisions on a 5-4 vote. If you are not prepared for the long haul you are going to be disappointed. Doing "something" is not the answer. It must be the right something. |
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They are doing it in California. How will we feel if California gets rid of their AWB before we do?? Whether they'll make it or not, at least they are doing something. Just for the sake of argument, lets say whatever outcome you think is best does happen in CA. The very next day the CA legislature will draft new legislation which would accomplish 99% what the old law does. That is what DC and Chicago did and we have been told by legislators they do not care what the courts say, they will go ahead and do whatever they want. There is no simple magic way to make what you want to happen, either through the courts or through the legislature. It took 30+ years of legal scholarship just to get somewhat good SCOTUS decisions on a 5-4 vote. If you are not prepared for the long haul you are going to be disappointed. Doing "something" is not the answer. It must be the right something. I don't think it would be that easy to pass an AWB in NY again. The old one was simple, because no one cared much, since few believed the fed ban would sunset. The assembly is constantly trying to pass shit here and is failing, thanks in no small part to you. |
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But I want more. Maybe that isn't fair, but it just is. I want the AWB gone. I want to not need a stupid permit to own a handgun. Well so do I! I'm not going to waste my time or yours either by presenting a rosy scenario that just ain't gonna happen. Anyone who does not believe what I said go ahead and print this thread out and show it to your state reps. and ask their opinion on it. |
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NYS's AWB VIOLATES DC vs Heller. It violates it! Completely and totally! That is your opinion only and you have no case law to back it up. Do you see NRA, SAF or anyone else challenging similar laws in CA, MD? No. There is a reason for that. What are the reasons? The only way anything will ever change is to go after individuals financially, as in, we specifically name them in civil rights suits, ie, judge puts restrictions on a permit, permit holder gets robed, raped, murdered etc, go after THAT judge, not the system, there has to be a way to do it. We also need to go after pretty much all of senate and congress for all the treasonous acts they have been committing. How we as citizens can do that, I have no idea, but there has to be a way. |
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What are the reasons? They are trying to build up good case law in parts of the country that can then be applied elseware. The only way anything will ever change is to go after individuals financially, as in, we specifically name them in civil rights suits, ie, judge puts restrictions on a permit, permit holder gets robed, raped, murdered etc, go after THAT judge, not the system, there has to be a way to do it. We also need to go after pretty much all of senate and congress for all the treasonous acts they have been committing. How we as citizens can do that, I have no idea, but there has to be a way.
You cannot sue judges for making rulings or legislators for writing laws. |
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They are doing it in California. How will we feel if California gets rid of their AWB before we do?? Whether they'll make it or not, at least they are doing something. Just for the sake of argument, lets say whatever outcome you think is best does happen in CA. The very next day the CA legislature will draft new legislation which would accomplish 99% what the old law does. That is what DC and Chicago did and we have been told by legislators they do not care what the courts say, they will go ahead and do whatever they want. There is no simple magic way to make what you want to happen, either through the courts or through the legislature. It took 30+ years of legal scholarship just to get somewhat good SCOTUS decisions on a 5-4 vote. If you are not prepared for the long haul you are going to be disappointed. Doing "something" is not the answer. It must be the right something. Which is why the lawsuits must be persistent and expensive. Gura himself noted that persistence alone has brought some places into relative compliance just because they are so tired of dealing with him, blowing budgets on defending themselves, looking stupid to the taxpayers and because they have more important issues to stand behind than what the public perceives as the minutia of gun control, but issues which makes worlds of difference to us. Chicago is being challenged on the new legislation regarding gun rages. It didn't take 30 years, it took some very interested and motivated individuals and the right supreme court just a few years to change gun control in this country as we know it. The time to strike is while the iron is hot, while we have the slim majority, the momentum of recent positive decisions. While SAF and Gura do indeed stand on the shoulders of their predecessors, the arguments are not that complex, they just needed to be presented to the right people at the right moment. There is no reason to downplay positive law because the legislature is prone to subvert it later, in fact, as they manufacture new means to circumvent the law and take our rights, we get the opportunity to address those theories in court, and every time they lose in the supreme court, every jurisdiction comes that much closer to they way it should be. We should be preferentially targeting areas whose legislatures are prone to manufacturing ways around new law, not avoiding them. The harder they fight it, the more opportunities we have to make good law that benefits everyone, everywhere. |
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What are the reasons? They are trying to build up good case law in parts of the country that can then be applied elseware. The only way anything will ever change is to go after individuals financially, as in, we specifically name them in civil rights suits, ie, judge puts restrictions on a permit, permit holder gets robed, raped, murdered etc, go after THAT judge, not the system, there has to be a way to do it. We also need to go after pretty much all of senate and congress for all the treasonous acts they have been committing. How we as citizens can do that, I have no idea, but there has to be a way.
You cannot sue judges for making rulings or legislators for writing laws. There has to be a way to go after them, you are not relieved of all culpability just because you are a judge or elected official. |
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http://scopeny.org/
Jacob and his organization does well, but here is another worthwhile NY State based 2A organization to belong to, especially if you live in western NY where we have largest membership. Majority of counties in western NY have local SCOPE chapters, allowing you to get involved from the grassroots level. We have done a lot of great work for gun owners in Western NY. We have meetings, banquets, rallies, sponsor youth shooting events, sponsor youth firearms education classes. SCOPE sent about a dozen bus loads of gun owners to ALbany on March 20, Brian Kolb regularly attends our events and is a member as well. Our local politicians know us on a first name basis and many of them are SCOPE members. Western NY is quite different than eastern and downstate NY. Vast majority of our local politicians are pro-gun and on our side. Get involved.....no time for sideline sitters. |
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Are you aware Bill Gibson is still pushing his scheme for statewide renewable pistol licenses in Albany? In my opinion, the renewable pistol permit system is WRONG. Majority of SCOPE members oppose this. I have vehemently opposed renewable pistol permits from the get-go. I have voiced my opinion on this STRONGLY. You can go to the SCOPE website and read our position papers, we do not back a renewable pistol permit system. I am aware of several missteps of your organization as well Jacob, such as the NY state AWB. We all must fight together rather than piss on each other. |
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Then you better have a long talk with your boy because he is still trying to trade renewable licenses with a host of qualifications for shall issue. He thinks Shelly will go for that. He is wrong. You and your boys had better stop spreading misinformation again ..SCOPE opposes renewable pistol permits in NY. |
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Then you better have a long talk with your boy because he is still trying to trade renewable licenses with a host of qualifications for shall issue. He thinks Shelly will go for that. He is wrong. You and your boys had better stop spreading misinformation again ..SCOPE opposes renewable pistol permits in NY. Bill Gibson supports them and is acting in your name in Albany. Call him up and ask him. |
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Then you better have a long talk with your boy because he is still trying to trade renewable licenses with a host of qualifications for shall issue. He thinks Shelly will go for that. He is wrong. You and your boys had better stop spreading misinformation again ..SCOPE opposes renewable pistol permits in NY. Bill Gibson supports them and is acting in your name in Albany. Call him up and ask him. Bill Gibson is NOT the president of SCOPE. The president of SCOPE and the BOD OIPPOSE RENEWABLE PISTOL PERMITS. I am on the SCOPE BOD, I do not need to call Bill Gibson. Please stop spreading misinformation. What is your purpose in doing so? |
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Quoted: Bill Gibson is NOT the president of SCOPE. The president of SCOPE and the BOD OIPPOSE RENEWABLE PISTOL PERMITS. I am on the SCOPE BOD, I do not need to call Bill Gibson. Please stop spreading misinformation. What is your purpose in doing so? I don't have any personal knowledge but based on the shitstorm 2009 e-mail exchange between Mathison, Gibson and King it did appear SCOPE was willing to "discuss" renewable pistol licenses.  |
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I cannot speak for what individuals think on their own outside of what the group stands for, but SCOPE DOES NOT ENDORSE RENEWABLE pistol permits. If you read our position paper you would have known the truth. Allowing the govt to "tax" us for an unconstitutional statute is absurd. |
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Bill Gibson is NOT the president of SCOPE. The president of SCOPE and the BOD OIPPOSE RENEWABLE PISTOL PERMITS. I am on the SCOPE BOD, I do not need to call Bill Gibson. Please stop spreading misinformation. What is your purpose in doing so? I am well aware Gibson is not president and your "official" position. That does not change the fact that he is still promoting the idea as part of a scheme he thinks will get statewide shall issue. That is why you should have a talk with him. He thinks the Republicans are going to lose and the Democrats will force it on us anywhere so by putting it on the table along with other things he'll be able to get shall issue in return. |
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Quoted: well then...you admit you had no personl knowledge....yet you are spreading rumors? speaks volumes of your character sir.  WTF are you talking about. I said I had no personal knowledge and was merely commenting on the 2009 PUBLIC e-mail exchange between the three parties. Are you saying the e-mails/responses were fabricated?ETA: What's wrong with a "discussion of renewable licenses" (which is all I said) anyway? |
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Quoted: Bill Gibson is NOT the president of SCOPE. The president of SCOPE and the BOD OIPPOSE RENEWABLE PISTOL PERMITS. I am on the SCOPE BOD, I do not need to call Bill Gibson. Please stop spreading misinformation. What is your purpose in doing so? I know you don't support rewable pistol permits, but, at some point in time Albany is going to fully realize a) what a potential cash cow it is b) it is an easy way to purge all of the folks who moved, or who died, off the rolls. So, I'm not saying you should change your position, but to keep your finger on the pulse of what is transpiring up there. NYC will most likely always be a separate beast for whatever gains we make. "Long Island" likewise, and possibly WC will also have a different shade of stupid than NYC. If the writing on the wall points to the inevitability of renewable permits, for gosh's sake, please do (collectively) gain serious concessions. For example: - remove requests for references - six month in county/state as resident before eligible for pistol permit - remove requirements to PURCHASE and POSSESS and to a lesser extent - AWB - suppressors (noise) I'll just come out and say it - there are essentially three sorts of gun people in NY a) the people who live upstate (like me) who have lifetime permits and want to hang onto that b) the people who live downstate who have to renew every X years, and don't see anything wrong with references, the waits, and discretionary issuance of permits c) gun owners who think NYC's, WC, Nassau C and Suffolk's gun rules are "rational". For the most part, once folks are "in", they really don't give a wet fart about the people on the outside looking in. Well I do, and I ask myself: What changes to our laws would be of benefit to the largest pool of people? Should those changes be focused on the pool of folks who already have guns, or for those who want guns? Or both? Are we going to have AZ or VT style carry anytime soon? No. How long would any of us project it would take for us to get there (AZ, AK style laws)? What is the long term map that the various gun associations in this state looking at? -ml |
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Quoted: Well I do, and I ask myself: What changes to our laws would be of benefit to the largest pool of people? Should those changes be focused on the pool of folks who already have guns, or for those who want guns? Or both? Just mirror the FL CCW licensing system. That said there is never going to be any meaningful reform of the pistol licensing system by the NY legislature. If anything it's going to get worse unless a Federal court forces a reform of the current law. $117 7 year shall issue renewable licenses Same FL training requirements No handgun registration 30+ state reciprocity CCW qualifies as a NICS alternative OK, I've had enough laughs for today.  |
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That said there is never going to be any meaningful reform of the pistol licensing system by the NY legislature. Oh yes there is. There isn't any question about that. What idiots like Gibson refuse to accept is the reason the legislature does not pay much attention to them is, not that they're offended by the issue, but because they do not think they are going to do much of anything to back their position up at election time. |
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Oh yes there is. There isn't any question about that. Hopefully you're correct. Let's revisit the subject on Wed. Nov. 7th. That does not mean we are going to get a big ticket item in the near future. More realistic expectations would be possession exemptions for training, pistol license privacy, etc. |
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Quoted: What I think needs to happen is we need to send Mr. Coumo and Mr. Bloomburg down to Florida to beat some sense in them. THE NERVE of theme to think they can start issuing pistol permits without references, training requirements, or taking an arm, leg and lung.Quoted: Well I do, and I ask myself: What changes to our laws would be of benefit to the largest pool of people? Should those changes be focused on the pool of folks who already have guns, or for those who want guns? Or both? Just mirror the FL CCW licensing system. That said there is never going to be any meaningful reform of the pistol licensing system by the NY legislature. If anything it's going to get worse unless a Federal court forces a reform of the current law. $117 7 year shall issue renewable licenses Same FL training requirements No handgun registration 30+ state reciprocity CCW qualifies as a NICS alternative OK, I've had enough laughs for today. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that their (FL) pistol permit system will not last more than a few weeks.  |
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Quoted: Quoted: That said there is never going to be any meaningful reform of the pistol licensing system by the NY legislature. Oh yes there is. There isn't any question about that. What idiots like Gibson refuse to accept is the reason the legislature does not pay much attention to them is, not that they're offended by the issue, but because they do not think they are going to do much of anything to back their position up at election time. I've never met you, or Mr. Gibson. It don't help our cause if/when we lose our cool. Do you think "meaningful reform" will promulgated more as a result of lobbying, or as a result of lawsuits? -ml |
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If I had lost my cool my shoe would have been up his ass. We are not going have anyone preemptively surrendering to the Governor or legislature ever again. That is what the Conservative Council did in 2000 for the AWB and tried again in '09 with a .50 cal ban.
All the elected officials want is for us to be involved with their election process. They want us to support them, to donate to their campaigns, put up signs, send press releases for them and turn out to vote. That is it. |