[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Pre-ban documentation (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 10/19/2011 9:25:37 AM EDT
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Hey all,
What would best serve as documentation that my lower receiver is a pre-ban? I have documentation from THIS link that shows my serial number falls within the pre-ban date range. If I print that off, and keep that on me, will that serve to adequately prove that my rifle is a pre-ban or do I need a "parental note" from the manufacturer that it is a pre-ban? Thanks, - P |
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If I was you, I would contact the manufacturer and then get a letter from them.
I would then go to the bank and have it notarized, you know for extra authenticity. Then I would go and make sure you make copies so that you could keep some in every gun bag, you cars, etc etc Then I would go to Kinkos or the like and get those copies laminated, to ensure that they are protected. I would then make sure that you place the original in the safety deposit box so that it stays safe. |
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If I was you, I would contact the manufacturer and then get a letter from them. I would then go to the bank and have it notarized, you know for extra authenticity. Then I would go and make sure you make copies so that you could keep some in every gun bag, you cars, etc etc Then I would go to Kinkos or the like and get those copies laminated, to ensure that they are protected. I would then make sure that you place the original in the safety deposit box so that it stays safe. Not sure if serious...  Maybe I'm thinking about this incorrectly...do we even need documentation for pre-bans or is the onus on the state to prove that it isn't a pre-ban? I'm so confused...
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This question comes up every month, I have a lot of friends with prebans. I have shot a lot with them.
I have a few myself. Never once have I ever been hassled. The only 2 cases that I have heard of about people getting hassled were on this board. The only charges of AWB violations were from people that were getting arrested for other crimes. relax and shoot your guns |
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If I was you, I would contact the manufacturer and then get a letter from them. I would then go to the bank and have it notarized, you know for extra authenticity. Then I would go and make sure you make copies so that you could keep some in every gun bag, you cars, etc etc Then I would go to Kinkos or the like and get those copies laminated, to ensure that they are protected. I would then make sure that you place the original in the safety deposit box so that it stays safe. Not sure if serious... Maybe I'm thinking about this incorrectly...do we even need documentation for pre-bans or is the onus on the state to prove that it isn't a pre-ban? I'm so confused......same thing I say to my uber left leaning S.I.L when it comes to firearms. Better to have it and not need it ,then need it and not have it. Do you really need to have documentation?... probably not. Will it smooth things out quickly if you get stopped and questioned by LEO...Yes. I have few pre-bans from different manufacturers and they were all helpful and accommodating in sending me either an e-mail or a letter on company letter head with the born on date of the lower. YMMV |
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This question comes up every month, I have a lot of friends with prebans. I have shot a lot with them. I have a few myself. Never once have I ever been hassled. The only 2 cases that I have heard of about people getting hassled were on this board. The only charges of AWB violations were from people that were getting arrested for other crimes. relax and shoot your guns Thanks for setting me straight...I owe you a beer if we ever meet at a hometown shoot! 
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i understand the whole "avoiding the hassle" thing, but any documentation that I have seen looks like a regular old email.
and the cops out there have no clue about these laws anyways. whats the point of going crazy trying to cover your ass. NFA is a whole nother story. I do keep my forms on me. |
| since the can o worms got opened again. i just bought a preban "uzi type" group industries gun, NOT a vector. it is deff a preban, in fact the receivers were made in the same batch as FA transferable group industries guns. i shouldnt have a problem because of this? i only ask because they went under years ago. |
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Quoted: since the can o worms got opened again. i just bought a preban "uzi type" group industries gun, NOT a vector. it is deff a preban, in fact the receivers were made in the same batch as FA transferable group industries guns. i shouldnt have a problem because of this? i only ask because they went under years ago. The law bans UZI by name "UZI Carbine, Mini-Carbine and Pistol" so as long as it isn't stamped "UZI" then it should be fine, especially if it was made pre-1986. http://www.cga.ct.gov/2011/pub/Chap943.htm#Sec53-202a.htm |
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I would then go to the bank and have it notarized, you know for extra authenticity. You can't have someone else's signature notarized? What is the notary going to verify? Date that you had it in your possession? If that is the issue, mail it to yourself and don't open the envelope. The question you are asking, whether you know it or not, is, "Does my possession of a rifle that resembles a banned class of weapons constitute probable cause for it's seizure and my arrest and prosecution?" Maybe. If it is a pre-ban, you obviously won't be convicted (if you can afford to plead not guilty and go to trial). The state must prove each element of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt, and given that the thing is serialized, and given that there is a production record available, and at least information regarding it's initial sale, you probably won't be convicted. All of the other stages merely require probable cause...good luck figuring out what that means at each stage of the game. Could a dumb, uninformed police officer genuinely think that you gun is illegal? Sure. Would that be deemed reasonable? Who knows. Likely not. Up until the point where you are officially charged with a crime, the police have ALOT of leeway in the stupid things they can do and later claim good faith ignorance too. Typically, the moron cop who is out to arrest you isn't really going to be dissuaded by your piece of paper, if you run into Mister 1 in 100 bad cowboy cop, who knows. |
| i dont think any of us are worried about goin to jail for a preban, well because we know its legal, and the truth will come out. most of us, i think at least, are worried about that cowboy cop and giving us a hard time. its just a waste of time if that were to happen, and none of us like wasting our time. |
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i dont think any of us are worried about goin to jail for a preban, well because we know its legal, and the truth will come out. most of us, i think at least, are worried about that cowboy cop and giving us a hard time. its just a waste of time if that were to happen, and none of us like wasting our time. Waste of time and an arrest record for future employers to see...never mind the horrendous tactics they tend to employ when they arrest you on a friday night of a holiday weekend, perform a strip search and then put you in a suicide gown for 3 days naked and alone. Some police departments will go Iraqi prison on your ass if you piss them off. You'll never see the gun again either or anything attached to it, or any cash you had on you. Just keep a good grip on the soap and hope you don't get shanked in a holding cell. Trust me, you DO NOT want to be arrested. Of course you can file a 1983 action against them after the fact if you have $150,000 lying around and no better use for it. Then you get to see the world from behind the blue wall of silence and if you're especially lucky they might have someone follow you around town writing you traffic tickets all day, have the local building department crawl up your ass or send the SWAT team to your house to protect you from yourself. You'll be begging to plea for a disqualifying felony with no jail by the time they are done with you. |
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i dont think any of us are worried about goin to jail for a preban, well because we know its legal, and the truth will come out. most of us, i think at least, are worried about that cowboy cop and giving us a hard time. its just a waste of time if that were to happen, and none of us like wasting our time. Waste of time and an arrest record for future employers to see...never mind the horrendous tactics they tend to employ when they arrest you on a friday night of a holiday weekend, perform a strip search and then put you in a suicide gown for 3 days naked and alone. Some police departments will go Iraqi prison on your ass if you piss them off. You'll never see the gun again either or anything attached to it, or any cash you had on you. Just keep a good grip on the soap and hope you don't get shanked in a holding cell. Trust me, you DO NOT want to be arrested. Of course you can file a 1983 action against them after the fact if you have $150,000 lying around and no better use for it. Then you get to see the world from behind the blue wall of silence and if you're especially lucky they might have someone follow you around town writing you traffic tickets all day, have the local building department crawl up your ass or send the SWAT team to your house to protect you from yourself. You'll be begging to plea for a disqualifying felony with no jail by the time they are done with you. 
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i dont think any of us are worried about goin to jail for a preban, well because we know its legal, and the truth will come out. most of us, i think at least, are worried about that cowboy cop and giving us a hard time. its just a waste of time if that were to happen, and none of us like wasting our time. Waste of time and an arrest record for future employers to see...never mind the horrendous tactics they tend to employ when they arrest you on a friday night of a holiday weekend, perform a strip search and then put you in a suicide gown for 3 days naked and alone. Some police departments will go Iraqi prison on your ass if you piss them off. You'll never see the gun again either or anything attached to it, or any cash you had on you. Just keep a good grip on the soap and hope you don't get shanked in a holding cell. Trust me, you DO NOT want to be arrested. Of course you can file a 1983 action against them after the fact if you have $150,000 lying around and no better use for it. Then you get to see the world from behind the blue wall of silence and if you're especially lucky they might have someone follow you around town writing you traffic tickets all day, have the local building department crawl up your ass or send the SWAT team to your house to protect you from yourself. You'll be begging to plea for a disqualifying felony with no jail by the time they are done with you. I uh,umm ewww.I got nothing. Congrats this post and the infamous "Dipper" have again left me speechless. |
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Nancy Genovese
http://www.longislandlawyerblog.com/mother-of-3-arrested-for-taking-pictures-of-tourist-attraction-at-airport Gabriel Razzano http://www.gunblogs.org/2008/08/how-to-lose-your-guns-without-due-process-in-freeport Thankfully, CT tends to be an order of magnitude better than downstate New York, but we're all just a few poor decisions away from this sort of treatment. |
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Nancy Genovese http://www.longislandlawyerblog.com/mother-of-3-arrested-for-taking-pictures-of-tourist-attraction-at-airport Gabriel Razzano http://www.gunblogs.org/2008/08/how-to-lose-your-guns-without-due-process-in-freeport Thankfully, CT tends to be an order of magnitude better than downstate New York, but we're all just a few poor decisions away from this sort of treatment. I hope they both win their lawsuits and win millions and millions of dollars in the process. Then they should move to a nice warm Red state. |
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I would then go to the bank and have it notarized, you know for extra authenticity. You can't have someone else's signature notarized? What is the notary going to verify? Date that you had it in your possession? If that is the issue, mail it to yourself and don't open the envelope. The question you are asking, whether you know it or not, is, "Does my possession of a rifle that resembles a banned class of weapons constitute probable cause for it's seizure and my arrest and prosecution?" Maybe. If it is a pre-ban, you obviously won't be convicted (if you can afford to plead not guilty and go to trial). The state must prove each element of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt, and given that the thing is serialized, and given that there is a production record available, and at least information regarding it's initial sale, you probably won't be convicted. All of the other stages merely require probable cause...good luck figuring out what that means at each stage of the game. Could a dumb, uninformed police officer genuinely think that you gun is illegal? Sure. Would that be deemed reasonable? Who knows. Likely not. Up until the point where you are officially charged with a crime, the police have ALOT of leeway in the stupid things they can do and later claim good faith ignorance too. Typically, the moron cop who is out to arrest you isn't really going to be dissuaded by your piece of paper, if you run into Mister 1 in 100 bad cowboy cop, who knows. In order to convict: The state would have a burden to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the defendant did in fact possess the weapon and that the weapon qualified as an assault weapon under 53-202a. This would not be very difficult. In Connecticut there would actually be a burden of proof, on the defense, to prove by a perponderence of the evidence that the defendant qualifies for the affirmative defense (which 53-202m(4) would constitute)- if the defendant were trying to get off based on their firearm being a preban. |
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Nowhere in CTs assault weapons laws does it say you have to prove the gun is preban. That is another thing some administrator at the State police made up. The burden of proof is on them not on you. That is based on state case law pertaining to the assertion of affirmative defenses, which a claim of "it's a preban" would be considered, since 53-202m is an exemption. In Connecticut, exemptions (whether contained in the section or another section) are considered affirmative defenses. When a defendant asserts an affirmative defense, he is admitting to certain acts (in this case that he possessed the weapon and that the weapon is an assault weapon) but is claiming that their possession is not subject to the general prohibition/ criminality, and he needs to prove by perponderance of the evidence that he qualifies for the affirmaive defense being raised. |
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I guess your sarcasm meter is broken.
but at least your tin foil hat is on tight. 
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I would then go to the bank and have it notarized, you know for extra authenticity. You can't have someone else's signature notarized? What is the notary going to verify? Date that you had it in your possession? If that is the issue, mail it to yourself and don't open the envelope. The question you are asking, whether you know it or not, is, "Does my possession of a rifle that resembles a banned class of weapons constitute probable cause for it's seizure and my arrest and prosecution?" Maybe. If it is a pre-ban, you obviously won't be convicted (if you can afford to plead not guilty and go to trial). The state must prove each element of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt, and given that the thing is serialized, and given that there is a production record available, and at least information regarding it's initial sale, you probably won't be convicted. All of the other stages merely require probable cause...good luck figuring out what that means at each stage of the game. Could a dumb, uninformed police officer genuinely think that you gun is illegal? Sure. Would that be deemed reasonable? Who knows. Likely not. Up until the point where you are officially charged with a crime, the police have ALOT of leeway in the stupid things they can do and later claim good faith ignorance too. Typically, the moron cop who is out to arrest you isn't really going to be dissuaded by your piece of paper, if you run into Mister 1 in 100 bad cowboy cop, who knows. |
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You can be arrested for any number of things illegitimately. As a gun owner you attract alot of attention for just that sort of thing. The personal information outing and borderline personal attacks aren't appropriate. Neither is the fear mongering in your posts. |
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You can be arrested for any number of things illegitimately. As a gun owner you attract alot of attention for just that sort of thing. The personal information outing and borderline personal attacks aren't appropriate. Neither is the fear mongering in your posts. I posted examples of incidents. You need to be careful out there. |
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You can be arrested for any number of things illegitimately. As a gun owner you attract alot of attention for just that sort of thing. The personal information outing and borderline personal attacks aren't appropriate. Neither is the fear mongering in your posts. Fear mongering? He only gave his opinion |
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Nowhere in CTs assault weapons laws does it say you have to prove the gun is preban. That is another thing some administrator at the State police made up. The burden of proof is on them not on you. Any cop can arrest you and pull your pistol permit. Now you then go to court and prove your innocence. You can spend lots of hard earned cash to get your pistol permit back too. After your cleared of any wrong doing, then you can sue the town, station & officer for damages. Then in 8-10 years you have your money back! I put supporting info of my prebans in my range bag. A few sheets of paper don't take up much space. You can find preban S/N numbers in the correct ranges here on this site or on the net. Copy and paste that info and fold it in your range bag. That's how I do it. Like the other guy said, I've never been asked to show papers either, but that paper if needed will support your position, and prove your in good standing with the law. |
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You can be arrested for any number of things illegitimately. As a gun owner you attract alot of attention for just that sort of thing. The personal information outing and borderline personal attacks aren't appropriate. Neither is the fear mongering in your posts. Fear mongering? He only gave his opinion Good for him. And he got some opinions back. No different than anyone else who posts Their opinion. |
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You can be arrested for any number of things illegitimately. As a gun owner you attract alot of attention for just that sort of thing. The personal information outing and borderline personal attacks aren't appropriate. Neither is the fear mongering in your posts. I posted examples of incidents. You need to be careful out there. You posted two examples that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. We are talking about preban firearms ownership in the state of CT. |
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You can be arrested for any number of things illegitimately. As a gun owner you attract alot of attention for just that sort of thing. The personal information outing and borderline personal attacks aren't appropriate. Neither is the fear mongering in your posts. I posted examples of incidents. You need to be careful out there. You posted two examples that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. We are talking about preban firearms ownership in the state of CT. You do seem to be attacking him, go back and look at your posts just my observation |
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You can be arrested for any number of things illegitimately. As a gun owner you attract alot of attention for just that sort of thing. The personal information outing and borderline personal attacks aren't appropriate. Neither is the fear mongering in your posts. I posted examples of incidents. You need to be careful out there. You posted two examples that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. We are talking about preban firearms ownership in the state of CT. You do seem to be attacking him, go back and look at your posts just my observation We have been talking about prebans for quite a while on this board. People read what is posted here. Some people just read and don't post. I don't want them to be scared of their own shadow thinking that they are going to be thrown in prison for having a preban rifle. It amounts to fear mongering. |
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You can be arrested for any number of things illegitimately. As a gun owner you attract alot of attention for just that sort of thing. The personal information outing and borderline personal attacks aren't appropriate. Neither is the fear mongering in your posts. I posted examples of incidents. You need to be careful out there. You posted two examples that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. We are talking about preban firearms ownership in the state of CT. You do seem to be attacking him, go back and look at your posts just my observation We have been talking about prebans for quite a while on this board. People read what is posted here. Some people just read and don't post. I don't want them to be scared of their own shadow thinking that they are going to be thrown in prison for having a preban rifle. It amounts to fear mongering. It has more to do with the modification to his posts "nonsensical wall of texts" that emsjeep did not post and you replies/posts He posted his opinion of a worst case scenario and you took it to a personal level. He called you on it and I also seem to see the same thing. Others have agreed with him (to a limited extent, that a letter could be of some use )but you keep going back to emsjeep and busting his balls! Why? Is it personal? |
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It has more to do with the modification to his posts "nonsensical wall of texts" that emsjeep did not post and you replies/posts He posted his opinion of a worst case scenario and you took it to a personal level. He called you on it and I also seem to see the same thing. Others have agreed with him (to a limited extent, that a letter could be of some use )but you keep going back to emsjeep and busting his balls! Why? Is it personal? No, it's about as impersonal as you can imagine. You seem to have more of a hard on for me, is that personal? I don't like seeing people work others into a frenzy over something that is pretty much a non issue. And I would go back and re-read the thread post for post, to see who said what. Because I have no issue with someone wanting a letter for verification, but the poster I questioned didn't advocate having one. Usually when someone does one of these [....], it implies that a modification was made. Often in the form of a [snip] to reduce clutter. You seem to be the only one offended by it. My response to you is, get the fuck over it. [:// But if you want to keep going back and forth, no problem. I don't walk away with my tail in between my legs like you did in another recent thread somewhere else after you posted and got jumped on. |
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It has more to do with the modification to his posts "nonsensical wall of texts" that emsjeep did not post and you replies/posts He posted his opinion of a worst case scenario and you took it to a personal level. He called you on it and I also seem to see the same thing. Others have agreed with him (to a limited extent, that a letter could be of some use )but you keep going back to emsjeep and busting his balls! Why? Is it personal? No, it's about as impersonal as you can imagine. You seem to have more of a hard on for me, is that personal? I don't like seeing people work others into a frenzy over something that is pretty much a non issue. And I would go back and re-read the thread post for post, to see who said what. Because I have no issue with someone wanting a letter for verification, but the poster I questioned didn't advocate having one. Usually when someone does one of these [....], it implies that a modification was made. Often in the form of a [snip] to reduce clutter. You seem to be the only one offended by it. My response to you is, get the fuck over it. [:// But if you want to keep going back and forth, no problem. I don't walk away with my tail in between my legs like you did in another recent thread somewhere else after you posted and got jumped on. No body seemed to get worked up into a frenzy! I have no hard on for , I am simply observing your attacks on him and noting it! Does that bother you? . |
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Go back and read my response to the thread you refer to. I did Dont like it To bad Get over it There was nothing for me to get over. The carbonation level in my soda is more important. You did make it personal And two people called you on it Him.....and you? If you post something for all to see, be prepared to defend it. If you are easily butthurt, take up knitting instead. |
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Go back and read my response to the thread you refer to. I did Dont like it To bad Get over it There was nothing for me to get over. The carbonation level in my soda is more important. You did make it personal And two people called you on it Him.....and you? If you post something for all to see, be prepared to defend it. If you are easily butthurt, take up knitting instead. or arguing Why make it personal? just saying |
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Not for nothing Pain, but what does a list of preban serial numbers actually prove? I am looking at this from a law enforcement point of view. Having a email from the manufacturer, a list printed out from the internet, or an email from Mrs. Bushmaster stating that her rifle is legal, does not matter to anyone. I just dont see a LEO saying "oh, since you have that piece of paper, with some words on it that could have been typed out by anyone, we are not going to hassle you over your firearm" Quoted:
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Nowhere in CTs assault weapons laws does it say you have to prove the gun is preban. That is another thing some administrator at the State police made up. The burden of proof is on them not on you. Any cop can arrest you and pull your pistol permit. Now you then go to court and prove your innocence. You can spend lots of hard earned cash to get your pistol permit back too. After your cleared of any wrong doing, then you can sue the town, station & officer for damages. Then in 8-10 years you have your money back! I put supporting info of my prebans in my range bag. A few sheets of paper don't take up much space. You can find preban S/N numbers in the correct ranges here on this site or on the net. Copy and paste that info and fold it in your range bag. That's how I do it. Like the other guy said, I've never been asked to show papers either, but that paper if needed will support your position, and prove your in good standing with the law. |
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what does a list of preban serial numbers actually prove? I feel it will add credibility that the gun in question is legal with the CT AW law. If you bought or transferred the preban from lets say JOJOS, and inform them on that too, would also support your case. I think getting busted for a preban is like winning powerball, It just won't happen. Like you, I've never been approached by LEOS or range officers when mine are out. I've been asked by many shooters if they are prebans, but in a curious way. |
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All,
History has shown that even an official certificate of possession from the state isn't enough for a random check of opportunity to a cop unwilling to understand the law he is enforcing. As JAD and Joel have pointed out, the onus is on the cops. The solution is to simply get out there and shoot the guns more and educate people where appropriate and possible. Granted some old fudds won't learn ( but they probably have prebans at home an just want to hassle you anyways). Just be confident. We know the law better than most anyone. Prove how stupid and futile the ban is and maybe one day we can get rid of it. The condition improves every day people! We got cops, hunters, women, and children shooting prebans. Now just get some politicians shooting them and you don't have to worry about winding up in a Turkish jail. (unless you enjoy that sort of thing you twisted sickos) |
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When I first moved to CT, I religiously carried preban documentation as well as snips of the pertinent statutes/laws with my preban firearms. This was especially so whenever I brought my Colt Carbine out in public since it is such a rare firearm and many CT gun owners don't even realize it exists and is legal. (look how many threads get answered by "no Colt prebans are legal in CT") After a while, I came to realize that I knew tremendously more than anyone who I would ever encounter, and that overwhelming knowledge of "I'm legal" eventually drove me to the point where I just left my folder of information back at home. There are plenty of well known goofy or gray area firearm issues in CT, but preban status just isn't one of them that I'd worry about. Just shoot it. |
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All, History has shown that even an official certificate of possession from the state isn't enough for a random check of opportunity to a cop unwilling to understand the law he is enforcing. As JAD and Joel have pointed out, the onus is on the cops. The solution is to simply get out there and shoot the guns more and educate people where appropriate and possible. Granted some old fudds won't learn ( but they probably have prebans at home an just want to hassle you anyways). Just be confident. We know the law better than most anyone. Prove how stupid and futile the ban is and maybe one day we can get rid of it. The condition improves every day people! We got cops, hunters, women, and children shooting prebans. Now just get some politicians shooting them and you don't have to worry about winding up in a Turkish jail. (unless you enjoy that sort of thing you twisted sickos) Actually, I was very clear to suggest that if somebody were to be prosecuted that they (the defendant) would have to meet a burden of proof- that is, that they would need to prove by perponderence of the evidence that the firearm that they possessed was made before 13 SEP 1994. The state would not have to prove anything about manufacture dates. That's why I like carrying a copy of the date of manufacture letter with my PWA. |
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All, History has shown that even an official certificate of possession from the state isn't enough for a random check of opportunity to a cop unwilling to understand the law he is enforcing. As JAD and Joel have pointed out, the onus is on the cops. The solution is to simply get out there and shoot the guns more and educate people where appropriate and possible. Granted some old fudds won't learn ( but they probably have prebans at home an just want to hassle you anyways). Just be confident. We know the law better than most anyone. Prove how stupid and futile the ban is and maybe one day we can get rid of it. The condition improves every day people! We got cops, hunters, women, and children shooting prebans. Now just get some politicians shooting them and you don't have to worry about winding up in a Turkish jail. (unless you enjoy that sort of thing you twisted sickos) Actually, I was very clear to suggest that if somebody were to be prosecuted that they (the defendant) would have to meet a burden of proof- that is, that they would need to prove by perponderence of the evidence that the firearm that they possessed was made before 13 SEP 1994. The state would not have to prove anything about manufacture dates. That's why I like carrying a copy of the date of manufacture letter with my PWA. Did not intend to misrepresent you. I dont have a copy of date of mfr. I don't think armalite has them that far back anyways. I just carry the business cards of a mean old judge. Anyways, I think it is due time to add some content regarding consequences and repercussions of being accused of violating the various state firearms laws, but mainly focused on the AWB. I am gathering some thoughts to begin a thread in which applicable portions of the discussion could then be later merged into the stickied pre-ban thread. Obviously would want to discuss due process, procedure, experiences, local experts, and case law. A legal aid guide, if you will. JAD, if you are a lawyer, your input on any discussion would be invaluable to what is already a priceless source of info. |