Posted: 3/9/2010 8:53:13 AM EDT
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Had a bad scene yesterday and would be interested in some opinions on how to proceed...
Short story is that I awoke yesterday morning to find two guys on my front lawn cutting the hell out of my Oak tree on the front lawn in the easement. I told them to stop what they were doing and asked why they were here. Their response was the HOA had said my tree was not IAW the agreement and had to be trimmed. I was also told that I would be billed an unknown amount for the service! Being that I was in my boxers I told them to leave my property and stop all work until I could figure this out. When I returned 3 or 4 minutes later I found them again on my property and my tree was now half gone... The entire neighborhood had received a mass mailing about 2 months prior ref trimming the trees. I had then trimmed mine about 1 foot above the standard...min height for branches above the road in 7' and I trimmed mine to well above 8. So as I see it my tree was in standard (an I have pictures to prove it) and the trimming was done illegally. Additionally I see this as criminal trespass and destruction of personal property. Anyone been in similar circumstances? Worth hiring a lawyer and suing the management company in civil court? I talked the Sherif's office and they have to had observed the trespass to allow a criminal complaint to be filed. The BL is that feel like I was violated and I also have the distinct impression that both the HOA and the management company feep as if they can act with impunity. What are my legal options? Also, please no "I would have shot them" comments.....too busy right now and I would just like some solid advice as to if there's a solution. Thanks in advance. |
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Start by pulling out your HOA contract .... if they were smart when they wrote it ... you will just waste your money in court .... on the other hand going and talking to them might be a good place to start. Had that happen to a friend years ago .... he stayed outside and they the painters refused to leave he called the police and have them cited with trespass warrants ... he then painted his door the new color and went about his day.
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Thanks and already looked at it....the HOA has the right to trim the trees/bushes if they aren't IAW the reg. The problem is that mine was and I have a photo to prove it.
The trespass issue is separate and I believe I missed the boat as the Deputy didn't arrive until these guys had departed (about 2 hours after.....). |
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why the hell would someone buy where there is a homeowners association? This has always bothered me.
your not smart enough to make your own decisions or want a small group government of neighbors; assholes usually, to have control over what you do? My advice is sell out and move to a place where others have no say. You agreed to the rules of your association when you bought into the place. It's your fault. Learn people. it is like a mini socialism and the only thing that you can do is get out of it and give them the Bronx's Salyut as you leave. On a side note If we get the Oboma care foot in the door to real Marxist socialism were screwed one just can't just sell and move out of that . comming soon to a town near you . |
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Quoted:
why the hell would someone buy where there is a homeowners association? Where I live you really don't want to live unless there is one. Just outside the neighbor is the non association and numerous yards look similar to Sanford and Sons while other yards look like parking lots. It is more of a protection against "those" types of neighbors. Sure, it would be wise to simply move to a better area where no homeowners association is needed but last I checked I wasn't shitting out $1000 bills and my company wasn't willing to relocate to accommodate me. |
| HOA covenants and restrictions are not written in stone and often violate local ordinances and even state law especially as to trees and environmental stuff.They were written by the builder/developer in the beginning and might have been illegally modified through fraudulent votes by corrupt asshole board members. |
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Quoted:
HOA covenants and restrictions are not written in stone and often violate local ordinances and even state law especially as to trees and environmental stuff.They were written by the builder/developer in the beginning and might have been illegally modified through fraudulent votes by corrupt asshole board members. Got it....agree. The point is that my tree was in compliance. The question is....does anyone have experience with taking legal action against a HOA or the hired management company...?? If so, any advice on how to proceed? |
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I would show up at the next HOA meeting and ask to speak and provide your side of the situation with the photos.
If you can show that you were in compliance prior to the tree company showing up then you should not be held liable for the bill. The Mgmnt company and HOA contracted with the tree company and they were probably overzealous in their trimming activities. Not all HOA's are bad, in most cases the homeowners never show up to a meeting unless they have a reason to complain and even fewer choose to get involved and try to help the community stay on track. Most people are reasonable and will listen to what you have to say. As far as the trespassing look in your convents it should state that the HOA has the right to do this when completing work. The other thing is they cannot place lean your home for fines only dues and assessments. Good luck |
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As far as the trespassing look in your convents it should state that the HOA has the right to do this when completing work.
I disagree and so does the HCSO....once I told them to stop work and leave the premisses they were obligated under the law to do so. If the HOA decided to push the issue they would be obligated to sue me and then enter my property under court order, normally with a deputy escort. No, that much is clear, this was criminal trespass...the issue is that the SO will not charge unless they observe. |
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Quoted:
As far as the trespassing look in your convents it should state that the HOA has the right to do this when completing work.
I disagree and so does the HCSO....once I told them to stop work and leave the premisses they were obligated under the law to do so. If the HOA decided to push the issue they would be obligated to sue me and then enter my property under court order, normally with a deputy escort. No, that much is clear, this was criminal trespass...the issue is that the SO will not charge unless they observe. Its a scam.... same scam they been running in Illinois for years... they get a cousin to cut the tree for like $200 and then they bill you about $2000 for the service. |
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You don't own the easement. Get over being upset about being violated by "trespassers" and to being let down by your local law enforcement agency. There is nothing to be done about these issues, especially now. This may be a hard truth to accept but it is what it is.
You haven't been billed yet and maybe you won't be. Wait for the bill, escrow the money and then work towards a settlement. An attorney will likely cost more than the bill. Solve your ugly tree problem by killing the tree in the easement EVERY winter (I won't explain how but you can figure it out). Then plant a new tree (I like to think of it as GOING GREEN!!). Your tree will never be in violation or need to be trimmed. This has worked for me for the last 15 years. |
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Solid advice?, solution?
Well you signed the line for the HOA rules so they could lord over you like you were a 2 year old. Want a solution... leave. Sell and leave. It is the only thing that is going to get rid of them. The state will side with them because you signed their "contract" you have to abide by it. You will get nowhere but broke trying to fight them and their stupidity. |
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You don't own the easement. Get over being upset about being violated by "trespassers" and to being let down by your local law enforcement agency. There is nothing to be done about these issues, especially now. This may be a hard truth to accept but it is what it is.
You absolutely own the easement and are 100% responsible for it's upkeep as well as for injuries that occur in it... And where did you read that I was "let down" by local law. I stopped feeling let down decades ago.....I just wrote what they told me.... Here are the facts: The law , and this was confirmed by the SO, is that they were criminally trespassing once I told them to leave as would be Verizon, the gas company or who ever. No one, with the exception of LE (and then only under certain circumstances) has the right to enter your property once told to leave. After that, they are trespassing. In the case of my HOA they would be required to sue me to gain entrance to my property. Would they win the lawsuit...probably ...I've read the covenant. If it were a utility then the SO would escort them onto my property if it concerned public safety. If not, then they would have to sue as well. Would they win...of course. That's not the issue here and that's not what I'm asking. The issue is that the tree WAS in compliance and I have proof. I am now going to be billed for a tree that did not need to be trimmed as well as the aggravation of the destruction of my property. The question is how to action this? Is there a method of dealing with the HOA management company that may have been proven to be effective? I would show up at the next HOA meeting and ask to speak and provide your side of the situation with the photos.
If you can show that you were in compliance prior to the tree company showing up then you should not be held liable for the bill. The Mgmnt company and HOA contracted with the tree company and they were probably overzealous in their trimming activities. Good advice and thanks. The overzealous part has me thinking....I wonder how much $$ goes to the landscaping company and how much to the management company? This whole thing really stinks....also did some research on the company, Rampart Properties. BBB has them at D+, Tampa consumer advocacy has them as pure scum. |
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Rampart Properties sounds like a familiar name. However, I would start with them and state your case and see where it goes from there. If you go in with an attitude, you'll get one back, so start nice. Sometimes a good first impression is all you need.
What part of Tampa are you in? |
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If you want to know how much the Mgmnt company charges each month just refer to your annual HOA statement.
No, I'm referring to the tree cutting activity. I understand that there are 280 in the community that will be trimmed. Each owner will be billed individually by the management company separate from the HOA fee. Potentially this company could profit upwards of 10-15k. It certainly seems to be in their best interest to cut as many trees as possible. The reality is that the HOA has enormous powers and when abused, are far reaching. The HOA leadership is elected and are volunteers. These members then decide which management company to hire....this is where the breakdown occurs. Once the management company is hired they assume the far reaching authorities of the HOA and can levy fines, liens, etc....the potential for abuse is mind boggling. This especially stark when one considers that they can generate additional profit by these "projects" Appreciate the sage advice from all ref not living in a deed restricted community. Perhaps that's a discussion for later....as it sits right now I have a problem and really don't care to consider the philosophical implications of a HOA. So no one has taken on an HOA? |
| First, i would have a certified letter delivered to them explaining your grievances and how you expect the situation to be resolved. A real estate attorney should be able to draft one for a small fee. If that does not fix it, you will most likely have to go to civil court to have judgement ruled on the matter. Can get expensive, but the hoa most likely will not fight it since they will also lose money. Keep in mind these scammer management companies do not like the limelight of being in court. |
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Working for a city in Florida for 30+ years, both as an LEO and later as an engineer (Traffic/Signs/Public Works), we had our share of run-ins with both HOAs and residents. The "Easement" and Rights-of-Way disputes were common. This is NOT a simple issue.
First, are the streets in your development maintained by the city/county, or the HOA? It makes a difference because of ROW issues. If they're publically maintained, then your "easement" most likely falls within the Right-of-Way, which is typically 50ft on either side of the roadway centerline. If you have a sidewalk in front of your house, it generally falls just within the Right-of-Way. If your tree is within an easement which is also the legally-defined Right-of-Way, then although you "own" that area and pay taxes on it via deed, the rights of others to access that property are virtually unlimited, provided they are working in an "official" capacity. They can walk on it, plant pink grass, dig-up the trees, plant elephant topiaries, whatever they want. If it is a simple easement, then there is a type (Easement of Necessity, Floating Easement, Prescriptive Easement, Negative Easement) and are created by deed and recorded just like any property interest. An easement, in it's simplest terms, is "the right to use the real property of another for a specific purpose." Legal title to the underlying land is retained by the original owner for all other purposes. In this case, the recorded easement would have to specify "for the purpose of planting/trimming/removing trees or other landscaping and/or foliage to comply with (blah, blah, blah). It depends if your HOA has it's shit together or not. In Florida, they wield A LOT of power, and the courts tend to rule on their side. Other than the Government, they're the ONLY ones that can forclose on a homesteaded property, and they're usually run by a bunch of frustrated geezers who never had any power, and they're making up for lost time. Before you start throwing people off "your" property, make sure you're on solid legal ground. Just because some Deputy says you can do this or that doesn't mean he's right. I used to have to "correct" these legal-beagles all the time. Remember, the "wronged" parties usually can't sue the Sheriff's Office or P.D., but they can sue the shit out of you. |
| Our HOA was dead/inactive when we moved in. About two years later some asshole(s) revived it. They are the biggest bunch of pompous assholes I've had the displeasure of being inflicted upon. The problem is they keep trying to play off the fear of people losing property value. This ain't Davis Island and no bylaws are going to bring values back to 2006 levels. Someone once told me I should get involved. I said only if I could dissolve the HOA and fire Rampart. What are the chances of that? That's not a rhetorical question. |
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If it is the area between the sidewalk and the street it is NOT an easment it is a RIGHT OF WAY. The easement is between homes and conservations. This is a common misconception among homeowners in an HOA community. I am the President of our HOA. An HOA has every right to trim (read maintain) the RIGHT OF WAY unless a county ordinance supersedes it. Now..... if you have proof that the tree in question was within compliance then they can cut away all they want but don't have leg to stand on for billing you.
As for trespassing you don't own the right of way so unless there is a court order they can be there. Now if they are just hanging out smoking weed then it is loitering. It the right of way yours? NO Are you supposed to maintain the upkeep (grass etc)? YES Maintenance of anything else is falls to the HOA 1st and then the county (unless it is a gated community) Hope that helps.... don't think you have a case unless they try to bill you. |
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Quoted: This is what I was gonna say....If it is the area between the sidewalk and the street it is NOT an easment it is a RIGHT OF WAY. The easement is between homes and conservations. This is a common misconception among homeowners in an HOA community. I am the President of our HOA. An HOA has every right to trim (read maintain) the RIGHT OF WAY unless a county ordinance supersedes it. Now..... if you have proof that the tree in question was within compliance then they can cut away all they want but don't have leg to stand on for billing you. As for trespassing you don't own the right of way so unless there is a court order they can be there. Now if they are just hanging out smoking weed then it is loitering. It the right of way yours? NO Are you supposed to maintain the upkeep (grass etc)? YES Maintenance of anything else is falls to the HOA 1st and then the county (unless it is a gated community) Hope that helps.... don't think you have a case unless they try to bill you.  ETA....pg 2 bitches!  |
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Here's an update for those of you who are following this....
Well this gets better and better..... Seems that the contractor doing the work, trimming 280 trees at $40 a pop, is also a member of the HOA board and a next door neighbor to the President of the board. In fact the company is owned by three next door neighbors of the HOA Pres... This is really quite hilarious....anyway I'm over the emotional event of having these guys butcher my tree....it's definitely allowed by the covenant and zero I can do. The real issue now is now is to follow the money.... Let me re-cap....this all began with a small notice that was buried on the community news letter 2 months ago noting that trees would be trimmed if not in compliance. No mention that the individual home owners would not be notified. Next came the surprise tree trimming event that occurred on a Monday morning. No notice to any home owner....most just returned home to find their tree trimmed and will receive a bill. When I asked the Pres why he didn't notify the homeowners prior to cutting their trees his response was "our notice met the minimum legal standard" !! Also important to note that that a previous letter had stated that the standard was the lowest branches had to be 7' above the road. This is how I trimmed my tree. The new standard is now 7' from the base of the tree. It now appears that the decision to have the trees trimmed was made, in part, by the guy who profited (ROM 10-15K!) from that decision. That's right ,the guy who owns the company that trimmed the trees is also on the HOA board. He was also part of the decision not to notify individual home owners. Do the math....if you notify homeowners that their tree was going to be trimmed most would have dome it themselves. Hence his profit would have probably been reduced by 70-80%. Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...probably a duck. What is even better is that the covenant reads that the HOA "can pay anyone, for any service, as determined by the board." So a first blush it looks like these guys are good to go from a legal standpoint, at least at this juncture. My view is that, at best, this is an ethical lapse on the part of the HOA board and inappropriate. At worst it's conspiracy under racketeering laws . Hard to prove.... Next step is that I'll have the books looked at and have an audit done. What I have going for me is that I work in the joint LE environment and my close partners are all 1811s or former agents. Another friend is a retired IRS special investigator and she's offered to take a look at the books. So no telling what we'll find. If these guys are up to monkey business it may show in the books through the normal audit process. At the end of the day these guys will probably shake out just to be Ass Clowns trying to grease each others palms under the thin legal veil of the loose HOA covenant. Probably legal though certainly shitty. If the problem is too large then the only COA will be to mobilize the community to have these guys put out of office. The issue there is that my experience is that every HOA over the last 7 years that I've been here is either driven by ego or greed....so booting these guys out will most likely just result in another batch of old men on a power trip... Hopefully though we'll find some good old fashioned criminal activity or at least enough to approach the city attorney on....the trick to this is to build out the case for him so he quickly understands what he's looking at and also might smell a conviction. This is where my 1811 buddies will come in 
Talking to the wife about moving. We've been thinking about it for a while and this just serves to move us in that direction a bit more quickly. |