Posted: 12/4/2013 6:20:55 PM EDT
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or anyone else who may know.
Is it a violation of code (St. Charles county, unincorporated, if that matters) for a receptacle box to have 5 wires in it and share a common neutral wire with another circuit? This seems pretty f'd up to me and I'm tripping GFCI breakers with a few ma on one outlet downstream. I thought I could figure this out and fix it myself, but just got a nasty electrical burn from a separate circuit that is in this box for some reason and I'm really scratching my head about what's going on. I just bought this place last week and I'm kinda pissed that a new house would be this jacked up. |
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Need more info but it is extremely difficult at best to diagnose a electrical issue over the net.
Ragarding the "five wires". Are you saying five different romex cables each containing three or more wires or just five individual wires? Are you actually tripping "GFCI breakers" or are you tripping a GFCI receptacle? Is the "extra circuit" spliced and continuing on or dead ended in this box? A GFCI isn't a current limiting device in the way you are thinking so your practically non existent amperage isn't the issue. The issue would be a short to ground which could be caused by a number of variables and it takes very little to trip. Now if you are in fact tripping a breaker then there are other potential factors. It sounds like this is a newly built house. If that is the case, the electrical contractor should come fix at no charge. Do you know who the contractor was? |
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Need more info but it is extremely difficult at best to diagnose a electrical issue over the net. -Yeah, I know. Mostly I was just wanting some confirmation that something is wrong enough I was justified in bitching about this. Ragarding the "five wires". Are you saying five different romex cables each containing three or more wires or just five individual wires? -Yes, 5 romex cables. 15 conductors. 3 from adjacent outlets. 1 from the breaker panel. 1 from a separate circuit that has it's own breaker, but seems to be sharing a neutral wire. Are you actually tripping "GFCI breakers" or are you tripping a GFCI receptacle? Just the GFCI breaker in the outlet box I'm looking at. Is the "extra circuit" spliced and continuing on or dead ended in this box? -The extra circuit appears to be a switched outlet that has it's own separate breaker. I can't figure out why it's in this outlet box. There is no GFCI outlets on this one but it will shock the shit out of you if someone turns it on while you are working with the subject outlet. A GFCI isn't a current limiting device in the way you are thinking so your practically non existent amperage isn't the issue. The issue would be a short to ground which could be caused by a number of variables and it takes very little to trip. Now if you are in fact tripping a breaker then there are other potential factors. -I know, and this is what's pissing me off. Everything works except for one downstream outlet that will trip it (the GFCI outlet) with anything plugged into it.The plug type circuit tester shows it's good but a digital alarm clock trips the GFCI. It sounds like this is a newly built house. If that is the case, the electrical contractor should come fix at no charge. Do you know who the contractor was? -I think the seller did the wiring in this place himself. My realtor is trying to get me to pursue a claim against my insurance. I've never seen this many wires in one outlet box. And sharing a neutral wire with a separate circuit seems odd to me...and dangerous. I have a hard time believing this doesn't violate some code. |
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you can share a neutral on the same phase ( example 1 & 3 or 2 & 4 ) . so let me get this right in my mind you have a home run coming from a gfi breaker that powers 4 recpticals one in the box an 3 others? you also have another circuit that feeds a switched recptical with a switch . one of the other 4 recepticles has a neutral tied into the seperate circuit for the switched recep . is this right? if so could you tell me the circuit numbers on the breakers.
there is reference to wire fill in a jbox in the code book and I dont have one handy at the moment but any electrician past a first year apprentice would leave himself some room to work and not try to cram 10lb of shit in a 5lb sack . |
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You have that all right except the GFCI breaker is in the outlet and not the panel if that matters. The breakers are #8 and #10, adjacent to each other on the same side of the panel.
It is a real shit mess in that box so my first though was something must have come loose from a wire nut and shorted but that doesn't seem to be the issue. I think I've run across the shared neutral line before, but not on a GFCI circuit so that had me worried. Especially after it jolted me when the breaker was (I thought) off. I'll double check the connections when I get home again. Maybe one of the downstream outlet wires is hooked to the line side and not the loads side. It all looked right yesterday, but I could have missed something I guess. |
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Five romex cables in a single gang plastic residential type box has got to be overloaded. I'm surprised the gfi even fits in there.
I would find out who pulled the permit. They are the responsible licensee. Then I woulld make them fix their crap. Issues like this would make me very suspicious about what you can't see or don't yet know about. Are your bedrooms fed off of arc fault breakers? If not that is a violation that should be changed as well. |
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It's a tight squeeze for the GFCI outlet. I guess the permit would be through the county?
I'll have to check on the arc fault breakers, I didn't notice them when I was in the panel last night but I wasn't really looking. From what I've read online the shared neutral seems to be an accepted practice, but I really wish they had done me the courtesy of using a double pole breaker or something to prevent surprises like I got last night. |
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Yes, through the county. You can not get a permit to wire a house without a license.
As for sharing neutrals, yes it has been acceptable for as long as I've been in the trade. However, that has changed in the most recent NEC revision but not all jurisdictions have adopted it yet. The new revision says you must have independent neutrals for branch circuits unless the breakers are tied together. |
| you have gfi recepticles not breakers . that all sounds doinked up . stuff like this is hard to diagnose over the internet And yeah sharing neutrals can get your socks knocked off . I have a pair of klines that look like wire strippers . my tool buddy turned off two of the three phases and then uttered the famous last words Its off go ahead and cut it. |
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Yes, through the county. You can not get a permit to wire a house without a license. As for sharing neutrals, yes it has been acceptable for as long as I've been in the trade. However, that has changed in the most recent NEC revision but not all jurisdictions have adopted it yet. The new revision says you must have independent neutrals for branch circuits unless the breakers are tied together. do you do alot of residential work ? I use to have my own shop and fixing something somebody else had been into or a remodel always drove me crazy . I finally figured out it was better to just work with my tools and let somebody else do the bidding. |
No, I am commercial and Industrial. The only "house" I have worked on was a $13 million + house that had a three phase / 480v / 800 amp service. 
So that was really more like a commercial job. Quoted:
do you do alot of residential work ? I use to have my own shop and fixing something somebody else had been into or a remodel always drove me crazy . I finally figured out it was better to just work with my tools and let somebody else do the bidding. Quoted:
Quoted:
Yes, through the county. You can not get a permit to wire a house without a license. As for sharing neutrals, yes it has been acceptable for as long as I've been in the trade. However, that has changed in the most recent NEC revision but not all jurisdictions have adopted it yet. The new revision says you must have independent neutrals for branch circuits unless the breakers are tied together. do you do alot of residential work ? I use to have my own shop and fixing something somebody else had been into or a remodel always drove me crazy . I finally figured out it was better to just work with my tools and let somebody else do the bidding. |
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Base,
Remember this simple rule. GFI receptacles will be in outlet boxes. And GFI breakers will only be found in breaker boxes. I dont know code. But I do know this. In breaker boxes going down the left or right side you will find that the first breaker is on one phase and the next down will be on the other phase (you other electricians give me a break here). So between breaker 1 and #3 is 220V. But breakers across from each other such as #1 and #2 are on the same phase. Now lets say that breakers 1 and 3 are 15 amps. For 15 amp you need wire sized to 14 AWG. In theory you can use one 14 AWG neutral wire to be shared. I would not do this cause if your neutral comes loose, then you are going to see some weird stuff happen. Some things will have a lower than 110V and others will have more than 110V. Worse case something might be real close to 220 across it. Or you could have circuits 1 and 2 share a neutral. In a case like this you need to have the neutral wire be a 10 AWG to carry back 30A to the panel. And if the neutral was to open up. All devices would quit working cause you would see 0 Volts at the receptacle Now with a GFI in the circuit. I would keep it simple and run a neutral for each hot wire. I had some DF wire my house. Went to replace my lamp over my dinner table. Turned off the switch and proceeded to remove the lamp. But before I disconnected the wires. I noticed something didnt look right in the box. Yep sure enough, they are switching the neutral wire and hot wire goes directly to the lamp. Needless to say I corrected the wiring. And when I did the porch lamp, I was watching for the error. Yep it too is wired wrong. |
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Quoted:
Base, Remember this simple rule. GFI receptacles will be in outlet boxes. And GFI breakers will only be found in breaker boxes. I dont know code. But I do know this. In breaker boxes going down the left or right side you will find that the first breaker is on one phase and the next down will be on the other phase (you other electricians give me a break here). So between breaker 1 and #3 is 220V. But breakers across from each other such as #1 and #2 are on the same phase. Now lets say that breakers 1 and 3 are 15 amps. For 15 amp you need wire sized to 14 AWG. In theory you can use one 14 AWG neutral wire to be shared. I would not do this cause if your neutral comes loose, then you are going to see some weird stuff happen. Some things will have a lower than 110V and others will have more than 110V. Worse case something might be real close to 220 across it. Or you could have circuits 1 and 2 share a neutral. In a case like this you need to have the neutral wire be a 10 AWG to carry back 30A to the panel. And if the neutral was to open up. All devices would quit working cause you would see 0 Volts at the receptacle Now with a GFI in the circuit. I would keep it simple and run a neutral for each hot wire. I had some DF wire my house. Went to replace my lamp over my dinner table. Turned off the switch and proceeded to remove the lamp. But before I disconnected the wires. I noticed something didnt look right in the box. Yep sure enough, they are switching the neutral wire and hot wire goes directly to the lamp. Needless to say I corrected the wiring. And when I did the porch lamp, I was watching for the error. Yep it too is wired wrong. no . for the sake of keeping it simple call the left side a phase and the right side b phase . the left side will be odd numbers ( 1, 3 , 5 , 7 ) the right side b phase (2 , 4 , 6 , 8 , ) you can share the neutral on the same phase example 2 and 4 circuits but not 1 and 2 since 2 would be a different phase. |
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Quoted:
No, I am commercial and Industrial. The only "house" I have worked on was a $13 million + house that had a three phase / 480v / 800 amp service.
So that was really more like a commercial job. Quoted:
No, I am commercial and Industrial. The only "house" I have worked on was a $13 million + house that had a three phase / 480v / 800 amp service.
So that was really more like a commercial job. Quoted:
Quoted:
Yes, through the county. You can not get a permit to wire a house without a license. As for sharing neutrals, yes it has been acceptable for as long as I've been in the trade. However, that has changed in the most recent NEC revision but not all jurisdictions have adopted it yet. The new revision says you must have independent neutrals for branch circuits unless the breakers are tied together. do you do alot of residential work ? I use to have my own shop and fixing something somebody else had been into or a remodel always drove me crazy . I finally figured out it was better to just work with my tools and let somebody else do the bidding. thats cool I mostly do industrial and commercial work I had a good buddy get burnt pretty bad over at calloway this past summer . |
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no . for the sake of keeping it simple call the left side a phase and the right side b phase . the left side will be odd numbers ( 1, 3 , 5 , 7 ) the right side b phase (2 , 4 , 6 , 8 , ) you can share the neutral on the same phase example 2 and 4 circuits but not 1 and 2 since 2 would be a different phase. Quoted:
Quoted:
Base, Remember this simple rule. GFI receptacles will be in outlet boxes. And GFI breakers will only be found in breaker boxes. I dont know code. But I do know this. In breaker boxes going down the left or right side you will find that the first breaker is on one phase and the next down will be on the other phase (you other electricians give me a break here). So between breaker 1 and #3 is 220V. But breakers across from each other such as #1 and #2 are on the same phase. Now lets say that breakers 1 and 3 are 15 amps. For 15 amp you need wire sized to 14 AWG. In theory you can use one 14 AWG neutral wire to be shared. I would not do this cause if your neutral comes loose, then you are going to see some weird stuff happen. Some things will have a lower than 110V and others will have more than 110V. Worse case something might be real close to 220 across it. Or you could have circuits 1 and 2 share a neutral. In a case like this you need to have the neutral wire be a 10 AWG to carry back 30A to the panel. And if the neutral was to open up. All devices would quit working cause you would see 0 Volts at the receptacle Now with a GFI in the circuit. I would keep it simple and run a neutral for each hot wire. I had some DF wire my house. Went to replace my lamp over my dinner table. Turned off the switch and proceeded to remove the lamp. But before I disconnected the wires. I noticed something didnt look right in the box. Yep sure enough, they are switching the neutral wire and hot wire goes directly to the lamp. Needless to say I corrected the wiring. And when I did the porch lamp, I was watching for the error. Yep it too is wired wrong. no . for the sake of keeping it simple call the left side a phase and the right side b phase . the left side will be odd numbers ( 1, 3 , 5 , 7 ) the right side b phase (2 , 4 , 6 , 8 , ) you can share the neutral on the same phase example 2 and 4 circuits but not 1 and 2 since 2 would be a different phase. +1 Don't share a neutral between phase A and B. Also, in a 120/240 3 wire system, you wouldn't need a 10AWG for the shared neutral of circuit 2 and 4 (both on B phase). With completely equal loads, the neutral current would be 0amps. Worst case would be the 15amps. For what it's worth, a typical GFI receptacle will interrupt the circuit if it senses a difference of 5mA between the neutral and the hot conductor. One that is designed to only protect equipment (as opposed to ppl) would interrupt at 30mA. |
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no . for the sake of keeping it simple call the left side a phase and the right side b phase . the left side will be odd numbers ( 1, 3 , 5 , 7 ) the right side b phase (2 , 4 , 6 , 8 , ) you can share the neutral on the same phase example 2 and 4 circuits but not 1 and 2 since 2 would be a different phase. Quoted:
Quoted:
Base, Remember this simple rule. GFI receptacles will be in outlet boxes. And GFI breakers will only be found in breaker boxes. I dont know code. But I do know this. In breaker boxes going down the left or right side you will find that the first breaker is on one phase and the next down will be on the other phase (you other electricians give me a break here). So between breaker 1 and #3 is 220V. But breakers across from each other such as #1 and #2 are on the same phase. Now lets say that breakers 1 and 3 are 15 amps. For 15 amp you need wire sized to 14 AWG. In theory you can use one 14 AWG neutral wire to be shared. I would not do this cause if your neutral comes loose, then you are going to see some weird stuff happen. Some things will have a lower than 110V and others will have more than 110V. Worse case something might be real close to 220 across it. Or you could have circuits 1 and 2 share a neutral. In a case like this you need to have the neutral wire be a 10 AWG to carry back 30A to the panel. And if the neutral was to open up. All devices would quit working cause you would see 0 Volts at the receptacle Now with a GFI in the circuit. I would keep it simple and run a neutral for each hot wire. I had some DF wire my house. Went to replace my lamp over my dinner table. Turned off the switch and proceeded to remove the lamp. But before I disconnected the wires. I noticed something didnt look right in the box. Yep sure enough, they are switching the neutral wire and hot wire goes directly to the lamp. Needless to say I corrected the wiring. And when I did the porch lamp, I was watching for the error. Yep it too is wired wrong. no . for the sake of keeping it simple call the left side a phase and the right side b phase . the left side will be odd numbers ( 1, 3 , 5 , 7 ) the right side b phase (2 , 4 , 6 , 8 , ) you can share the neutral on the same phase example 2 and 4 circuits but not 1 and 2 since 2 would be a different phase. Well it is clear you have never wired a C.B. panel. If you had, you would know that a 220V breaker would be two breakers on the same side of the panel such as circuit 1 & 3, or 5 & 7, or 2 & 4 for examples. Where as breakers 1 & 2 would be on the same buss bar. Please think out what you are going to say when you try to correct them. I have never seen a dryer wired to two breakers on opposite sides of the panel. Then too, I do have a Square D QC panel in my house and you are working with them cheaper panels. |
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+1 Don't share a neutral between phase A and B. Also, in a 120/240 3 wire system, you wouldn't need a 10AWG for the shared neutral of circuit 2 and 4 (both on B phase). With completely equal loads, the neutral current would be 0amps. Worst case would be the 15amps. For what it's worth, a typical GFI receptacle will interrupt the circuit if it senses a difference of 5mA between the neutral and the hot conductor. One that is designed to only protect equipment (as opposed to ppl) would interrupt at 30mA. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Base, Remember this simple rule. GFI receptacles will be in outlet boxes. And GFI breakers will only be found in breaker boxes. I dont know code. But I do know this. In breaker boxes going down the left or right side you will find that the first breaker is on one phase and the next down will be on the other phase (you other electricians give me a break here). So between breaker 1 and #3 is 220V. But breakers across from each other such as #1 and #2 are on the same phase. Now lets say that breakers 1 and 3 are 15 amps. For 15 amp you need wire sized to 14 AWG. In theory you can use one 14 AWG neutral wire to be shared. I would not do this cause if your neutral comes loose, then you are going to see some weird stuff happen. Some things will have a lower than 110V and others will have more than 110V. Worse case something might be real close to 220 across it. Or you could have circuits 1 and 2 share a neutral. In a case like this you need to have the neutral wire be a 10 AWG to carry back 30A to the panel. And if the neutral was to open up. All devices would quit working cause you would see 0 Volts at the receptacle Now with a GFI in the circuit. I would keep it simple and run a neutral for each hot wire. I had some DF wire my house. Went to replace my lamp over my dinner table. Turned off the switch and proceeded to remove the lamp. But before I disconnected the wires. I noticed something didnt look right in the box. Yep sure enough, they are switching the neutral wire and hot wire goes directly to the lamp. Needless to say I corrected the wiring. And when I did the porch lamp, I was watching for the error. Yep it too is wired wrong. no . for the sake of keeping it simple call the left side a phase and the right side b phase . the left side will be odd numbers ( 1, 3 , 5 , 7 ) the right side b phase (2 , 4 , 6 , 8 , ) you can share the neutral on the same phase example 2 and 4 circuits but not 1 and 2 since 2 would be a different phase. +1 Don't share a neutral between phase A and B. Also, in a 120/240 3 wire system, you wouldn't need a 10AWG for the shared neutral of circuit 2 and 4 (both on B phase). With completely equal loads, the neutral current would be 0amps. Worst case would be the 15amps. For what it's worth, a typical GFI receptacle will interrupt the circuit if it senses a difference of 5mA between the neutral and the hot conductor. One that is designed to only protect equipment (as opposed to ppl) would interrupt at 30mA. Wait a minute. Do you realize what you just said above "You wouldnt need a 10 AWG for the shared neutral of circuit 2 and 4 (both on B phase). What fucking school did you go to genius? Dont attempt to correct me till you get your shit straight. |
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Look I might fart up sometimes. But a few of you geniuses are going to get someone hurt. The only two times you will not have any current flowing on the neutral lead is when the loads are turned off or you have for example a 60W bulb on the A phase to neutral and a 60W bulb on the B phase and both are lit for example. And has anyone ever seen a breaker for a dryer or A.C. unit? The contacts are side by side and either two toggle handles that are fixed so that they turn on and off together. Or internal to the breakers body.
Wish you people would get your ducks in line before telling me I am wrong. Electrician by trade. Why my house has a commerical QC panel. Got this one so that the wife can ID tripped breaker if I am away from the house. Does your wifes know how to ID and reset a breaker? Mine does.... 
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Look I might fart up sometimes. But a few of you geniuses are going to get someone hurt. The only two times you will not have any current flowing on the neutral lead is when the loads are turned off or you have for example a 60W bulb on the A phase to neutral and a 60W bulb on the B phase and both are lit for example. And has anyone ever seen a breaker for a dryer or A.C. unit? The contacts are side by side and either two toggle handles that are fixed so that they turn on and off together. Or internal to the breakers body. Wish you people would get your ducks in line before telling me I am wrong. Electrician by trade. Why my house has a commerical QC panel. Got this one so that the wife can ID tripped breaker if I am away from the house. Does your wifes know how to ID and reset a breaker? Mine does.... LOL.... neat your wife can flip a popped breaker. Obviously you are better than me at everything. I did mess up what I was saying but there is no reason to get all pissy and start cussing. I think we are meaning the same things here. You are correct, if you have a purely resistive load from A to neutral and the same resistive load from B to neutral, the current on the neutral will be zero because it cancels out. The 240 breaker (2 pole breaker), that takes up slot 2 and 4, does not need to have a double sized neutral. Although, if you had a large amount of harmonics or reactive loads on those 2 circuits you might double size the neutral. Agreed? If, for whatever reason, you had a phase A circuit loaded to 15 amps and a second phase A circuit loaded to 15 amps and they were sharing a neutral, you would need a double sized neutral. Agreed? But, like you said, I would not do this. With the GFI, I would also run separate neutrals. Easier to fix and troubleshoot if it starts interrupting a lot. Note to self actually read posts instead of just skimming before replying.... |
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Mortis03,
The problem is that you attacked me for something I didnt even say. I said that you need a 10AWG neutral when it is shared to two circuits that are on the same phase of 15A circuits. I never said you had to have a wire double sized for a wiring that used on an A and B circuits. Cause in this case worse situation would be 15A on the Neutral if not less. Lets just say that trying to correct me on a issue that involves safety. Best have your ducks in a line cause I will come out swinging. I have gotten the same from others for the same reason. I hope you have big boy pants and can get over it and realize all is fair when discussing the safety of others. Cutter Hammer, meh 
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Why my house has a commerical QC panel. Got this one so that the wife can ID tripped breaker if I am away from the house. Does your wifes know how to ID and reset a breaker? Mine does....
Gee I know my wife is smart enough to see a tripped breaker without a idiot flag and reset it 
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Yikes. You electricians are a prickly bunch.
I missed that the offending outlet was hooked to neutral on the line side of the gfi outlet and the hot on the load side  . First thing I checked but with all the kinked up wires in there I must have made a mistake. I guess reading up on the codes and such was a good learning experience for me though I still thinking sharing neutral between 2 circuits is a shitty idea. If I hadn't had my left hand on the chassis grounded range range it probably would not have been a big deal...still seems unnecessary and silly.
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Yikes. You electricians are a prickly bunch. I missed that the offending outlet was hooked to neutral on the line side of the gfi outlet and the hot on the load side . First thing I checked but with all the kinked up wires in there I must have made a mistake. I guess reading up on the codes and such was a good learning experience for me though I still thinking sharing neutral between 2 circuits is a shitty idea. If I hadn't had my left hand on the chassis grounded range range it probably would not have been a big deal...still seems unnecessary and silly.thank you prickly is a very kind word to describe most of us. when I was an apprentice my dad made me take down a whole conduit run and do it over because I didnt have the flats on the compresion fittings all turned the same way . I tried to sneak by with putting a level on them but he caught me and said learn to do it right the first time . 
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