Posted: 7/4/2011 7:07:41 AM EDT
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Having looked at a lot of kit over the last 4 days, I've decided to 'ditch' the flashider and go for a compensator after several conversations, there were a few different ones on view so my question is: Which one to go for?
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I like this..... http://www.surefire.com/surefire/content/images_inv/a/a/24482/MB556K_xlarge_24482.png As do I, but where from? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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I like this..... http://www.surefire.com/surefire/content/images_inv/a/a/24482/MB556K_xlarge_24482.png As do I, but where from? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Same place you can get a KX3 from in the U.K..... 
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I'm considering a brake myself after the last few days.
However, I think all these 2 port brakes are pretty much the same. I can't see how they perform any different to each other, whether they're a Benny Cooley (or their copies) the Holland one, Miculeks, Accuracy Speaks Jakenator etc etc. I think it just comes down to how much you want to spend and how they look............oh and of course, who's name is on it
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I had one of these Benny Cooley comps - it was the Billy Bollox (thats confused the septics) 
If a comp is what you're after, this is highly recommended. It has the Limey1 seal of approval. |
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You could always buy British and get a ARC. Link? All I can find is paintball stuff? Don't know whether he does paintball stuff as well but here's the link. ARC Sounds good but I don't know whether it works. |
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That is just a different take on the std birdcage flash hider.
Anything that is fully open at the muzzle, and not specifically bored for calibre wont work as a brake, its simple physics. The side vented brakes such as benny cooley, hollands etc are the most efficient type of brake going, because they brake at 90 degrees to the bore. They are also identical on both sides. A brake that does not have opposing ports will cause uneven gas flow around the bullet on exit....if it is used as a brake with a tightly fitted bore. The next best type are the Vais, or the many copies available here. I use these extensively. They have several bonuses. They dont require timing. They vent evenly, and radially. The can be machined down to look like an integral part of the barrel, and they are quieter than the side ported brakes. They can also be bored the correct .020" over bore size for maximum brake efficiency. |
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That is just a different take on the std birdcage flash hider. Anything that is fully open at the muzzle, and not specifically bored for calibre wont work as a brake, its simple physics. The side vented brakes such as benny cooley, hollands etc are the most efficient type of brake going, because they brake at 90 degrees to the bore. They are also identical on both sides. A brake that does not have opposing ports will cause uneven gas flow around the bullet on exit....if it is used as a brake with a tightly fitted bore. The next best type are the Vais, or the many copies available here. I use these extensively. They have several bonuses. They dont require timing. They vent evenly, and radially. The can be machined down to look like an integral part of the barrel, and they are quieter than the side ported brakes. They can also be bored the correct .020" over bore size for maximum brake efficiency. Thanks for that Baldie, I was not sure if it work but without a closed and tightly bored exit hole. |
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Just had a look on Brownells site and the DPMS Miculek brake's not too pricey I paid around £55 for a Bennie Cooley from Brownells late last year. It does need timing, they say drill a 3/16 hole in the flat, right hand side for right handed shooters, other side for lefties. |
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The miculec brake has to be the brake bargain of the year Mark. Basically its a straight copy of a holland, but without hollands price tag. It also comes with a nut to time and lock the brake with.
I,ve used loads of these, and have the Holland one on my own .223. No difference in performance, but a hellova difference in price. That is also a very interesting one John. Combines what looks to be an efficient design with a vortex style flash hider ? Who makes that fella ? I fancy one of those for my next gun. |
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The ARC is as Baldie says a new take on the A2 Birdcage with some refinements. Its not a Brake, rather a Compensator, in that it aids in reducing muzzle rise or flip, not recoil(well very minor). First off its CNC machined unlike some of the moulded A2's. The finer port pattern causes back pressure to be applied to the lower 'non machined' section. The one thing I have seen it do is increase back pressure within the barrel, very slightly, and help cycle weaker .22LR rounds. If you are after a Brake, then look at the others as suggested, or wait for mine :) Being a compensator and not a Flash Hider means that the ARC is not licensable, so you do not need a FAC to purchase one. I'm having trouble sourcing stainlees timing shims for a sensible price for it. Have now given up and am supplying it with peel washers instead. To get the shim sets I wanted at the correct OD and ID was looking at £800 outlay to make each set work cost wise. That was from the USA as well, after I tried the UK. |
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Quoted: That is also a very interesting one John. Combines what looks to be an efficient design with a vortex style flash hider ? Who makes that fella ? I fancy one of those for my next gun. Here u go matey: |
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I have been working on our new brake for a while now and looked into this quite a bit. Like the surefire we have an initial chamber that is near vertically ported on both sides to aid in compensation and minor braking (this is different to any of the other brakes mentioned), followed by open baffle like surfaces at 90degrees to the bore with some final braking and porting towards the muzzle end of the device. The exit hole diameter is still under discussion at present as we are trying to balance effective use of gas pressure for both recoil and compensation throughout the length of the device. Those side ports vent a lot of pressure and our initial compensation chamber takes up quite a bit too. |
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Quoted: That is just a different take on the std birdcage flash hider. Anything that is fully open at the muzzle, and not specifically bored for calibre wont work as a brake, its simple physics. The side vented brakes such as benny cooley, hollands etc are the most efficient type of brake going, because they brake at 90 degrees to the bore. They are also identical on both sides. A brake that does not have opposing ports will cause uneven gas flow around the bullet on exit....if it is used as a brake with a tightly fitted bore. The next best type are the Vais, or the many copies available here. I use these extensively. They have several bonuses. They dont require timing. They vent evenly, and radially. The can be machined down to look like an integral part of the barrel, and they are quieter than the side ported brakes. They can also be bored the correct .020" over bore size for maximum brake efficiency. +1 If the bore is very tight. I talked with Bryan Litz (Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting) about this and he claims that, the pressure from the initial outflow around the crown can effect accuracy, over long distance, as it is so great. After the bullet has left the barrel these gases do not have the strength to impact accuracy in an open bore design. If this was the case we would see problems with the A2 birdcage as the lower portion of the device is flat while the upper is ported, causing a veritable thunderstorm of energy within the Flash Hider. The narrow/tight bore effect will vary over distance and openings, hence why we are still messing about drilling bits of metal :) |
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There's a couple or 3 peeps shooting CSR using those PWS brakes (although not with the prongs to the front). They seem about as effective as anyone elses. I used to have an early Holland Untra Brake that looks like a golf ball, kinda, and it was very good too. I also used to have an AK style brake from Bushmaster and guess what.....that's right, it was effective too. Only thing though was that where the AK brake did a good job of flash suppression, the Holland was a fire breathing beast with H335  ETA: I still have that Holland but use it for protecting the threads/crown when I'm spinning barrels up on the linisher/polisher |
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Finally somebody has filmed a KX3 on an SBR at night, so you can see how much shit comes out of the end of the thing. Why its called a flash hider is a mystery. The inverted funnel 'inside a tube' traps gas and helps SBR piston AR's cycle better, due to inceased back pressure. http://youtu.be/xrdojpFUp4c |
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Those KX3's are a bit daft. I think that a simple Holland/Miculek type will do the job any day. Dave, I'm not a real fan of lock rings, crush or peel washers etc, and like you, Gav and others, would rather take the time to time it correctly. It's much neater, even though it is a pain Actually I used to have a Holland triple port on my PR gun a few years ago and timed and blended it so you couldn't see the join, however with fashion and the desire to occasionally fit a can on the end, it wasn't ideal. That's why I went back to a std flash hider. One of these days I will make my own one that will be the same external dimensions, albeit with double ports, that I will be able to fit a QD can over. I currently have a B&T that does double duty on the Whisper, and although it is in .30 cal, still does a good enough job to keep me satisfied with it's suppression performance. |
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Quoted: Those KX3's are a bit daft. I think that a simple Holland/Miculek type will do the job any day. Dave, I'm not a real fan of lock rings, crush or peel washers etc, and like you, Gav and others, would rather take the time to time it correctly. It's much neater, even though it is a pain Mark I can't afford that luxury, wish I could, having to manufacture something that has to fit on a variety of 1/2-28 UNEF barrel ends, while the thread may be uniform the length is not.  |
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Quoted: Those KX3's are a bit daft. I think that a simple Holland/Miculek type will do the job any day. Dave, I'm not a real fan of lock rings, crush or peel washers etc, and like you, Gav and others, would rather take the time to time it correctly. It's much neater, even though it is a pain Actually I used to have a Holland triple port on my PR gun a few years ago and timed and blended it so you couldn't see the join, however with fashion and the desire to occasionally fit a can on the end, it wasn't ideal. That's why I went back to a std flash hider. One of these days I will make my own one that will be the same external dimensions, albeit with double ports, that I will be able to fit a QD can over. I currently have a B&T that does double duty on the Whisper, and although it is in .30 cal, still does a good enough job to keep me satisfied with it's suppression performance. Funny you should say that Mark |
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Quoted: Quoted: Those KX3's are a bit daft. I think that a simple Holland/Miculek type will do the job any day. Dave, I'm not a real fan of lock rings, crush or peel washers etc, and like you, Gav and others, would rather take the time to time it correctly. It's much neater, even though it is a pain Actually I used to have a Holland triple port on my PR gun a few years ago and timed and blended it so you couldn't see the join, however with fashion and the desire to occasionally fit a can on the end, it wasn't ideal. That's why I went back to a std flash hider. One of these days I will make my own one that will be the same external dimensions, albeit with double ports, that I will be able to fit a QD can over. I currently have a B&T that does double duty on the Whisper, and although it is in .30 cal, still does a good enough job to keep me satisfied with it's suppression performance. Funny you should say that Mark Say what? |
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The one thing I have seen it do is increase back pressure within the barrel, very slightly, and help cycle weaker .22LR rounds. Just one question, as a .22lr AR works from an open bolt how could a slight back pressure build up in the barrel as the bolt starts to move back as soon as the round is ignighted. Gas pressure has not a lot to do with cycling a recoil operated .22lr semi unless I'm mistaken. |
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The one thing I have seen it do is increase back pressure within the barrel, very slightly, and help cycle weaker .22LR rounds. Just one question, as a .22lr AR works from an open bolt how could a slight back pressure build up in the barrel as the bolt starts to move back as soon as the round is ignighted. Gas pressure has not a lot to do with cycling a recoil operated .22lr semi unless I'm mistaken. IIRC John, me thinks you're right. Blowback operates on the principle of er.... Blowback. The cycling comes from the energy emitted from the cartridge after detonation not gas pressure in the barrel. Hence why some .22lr will cycle everything and some not. Otherwise, the bolt would have some kind of delayed lock opening, which the .22's don't. Then it would be down to the recoil spring adjustment to adjust it's ability to cycle. I don't think barrel length even comes into play seeing as you could have a 16.5" barrel cycling .22 or a 4" cycling .22 and get the same results. Although I could be wrong 
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Well something happens differently with it on v's off Can't quite see how. Basic physics comes into play here. Actions and reactions etc etc. You have a very low powered cartridge pushing a very heavy bullet (powder volume vs bullet weight), can't see how any muzzle break or compensator will make any difference |
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Well something happens differently with it on v's off Have you done extensive testing on .22LR ARs, ie CMMGs, BAR22s, Spikes etc. Without properly instrumented testing you maybe mistaking your senses or being fooled into seeing an effect you want to see but that is not actually their. Have you any empirical data? |
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What can I say John, I see a difference, its just something observed. I'n not make a big deal of it and its not a sales point, just something seen. Blowback still has to use gas pressure between the case and bullet over x amount of barrel length, when the bullet exits the barrel that pressure will drop as the gases are free to expand into the atmosphere, if those gases are slowed in some way then residual pressure within the barrel will stay higher for longer, whether that has an effect on the blowback mechanism I don't know (IF what I am seeing is correct then it must). There has to be a build up of pressure over time for the force to work against the bolt face and action spring, where the bullet is in the barrel as the action cycles, I don't know, do you? If it is still in the barrel then obviously the comp is having no effect whatsoever. If it cycles at the point of exit then it could. I would imagine (I could be wrong) that for the action to function efficiently it would allow the gases time to drive the bullet as much as possible, rather than emptying the barrel from the breech early and reducing power. So it would be my guess that the cycling happens over barrel length and residual pressure in shorter barrels could aid in that, if the cycling occurs at, or extremely close to bullet exit. Low power ammo therefore would not have built up enough pressure to act against the case and bolt face before the bullet exited the barrel and said pressure droped dramatically, if you slow the expansion of gas from the muzzle you create higher residual pressure in the barrel that may assist in cycling. Thats my reasoning and what I think I am seeing. At the end of the day you have a force that can either go out of the muzzle or breech, for the gun to work at its best you would want to stop it exiting from the breech for as long as possible, idealy as the bullet exited the barrel. Like I said its something we have seen not tested, thats why its not a sales point and I may well have it completely wrong. The comp does reduce muzzle flip as it was designed to. |
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Quoted: damn complicated these simple guns What can I say John, I see a difference, its just something observed. I'n not make a big deal of it and its not a sales point, just something seen. Blowback still has to use gas pressure between the case and bullet over x amount of barrel length, when the bullet exits the barrel that pressure will drop as the gases are free to expand into the atmosphere, if those gases are slowed in some way then residual pressure within the barrel will stay higher for longer, whether that has an effect on the blowback mechanism I don't know (IF what I am seeing is correct then it must). There has to be a build up of pressure over time for the force to work against the bolt face and action spring, where the bullet is in the barrel as the action cycles, I don't know, do you? I think the spring just absorbs some of the energy of the bolt, its effect on 'holding the pressure back' is negligible, thats down to the mass of the bolt. I guess the spring could limit the bolt travel, by absorbing its energy over a shorter distance so that the action doesn't cycle properly? I googled some of this so it might be crap, The bolt and the bullet start moving at the same time. Semi bolt speed is about 12 fps, with .22 LR we could (be generous) and say it has to move .6 inch (.22 LR case length ) before the breach is open the atmosphere, assuming the case seals perfectly ( which it dont). So thats roughly 0.004 seconds. If the case seals against the chamber until pressure drops, (not sure with .22 ?) its going to slow it down further. And, the bolt won't accelerate instantly to 12 fps so add some more for that. MV of .22LR is (say) 1200 fps, if we have a 12 inch barrel the bullet is clear in about 0.001 seconds. That doesn't account for the time it takes to accelerate which might cock things up of course. If I had to guess, I'd say the bullet will clear the end of the barrel before the chamber opens to atmosphere. So restricting the gas expansion at the muzzle might well give a slightly longer pulse, but shouldnt make the pulse any bigger. but then again, I'm sure somebody on here will have the opposite view..... |
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Only way to prevent gas or recoil opening the bolt is to have a locked bolt design. Without a close fitting exit port on a muzzle device with an expansion chamber any gas behind the bullet will take the path of least resistance ie the big hole at the front of the muzzle.
The best thing to reduce muzzle flip on a .22LR or that matter a .223 is to increase the weight of the rifle, lead wedge in the buttstock, this is a compromise between having a rifle that is too heavy to lug up and down the range on a rundown and one that very quickly resettles on your POA during a rapid string; which is the only time you will gain any real advantage. My HP rifle weighs 16.5 lbs but balances well when standing and comes back on my correct POA during a rapid sitting or prone string efficiently and quickly. Any advantage with a recoil reduction device on a CSR 'Service Optic' Class manually operated rifle is mostly lost as you have to break position to cycle the action. On a CSR 'Practical Optic' Class rifle there might be an advantage in you being able to spot your fall of shot at closer ranges if you have a high power scope and your sight picture is not disturbed too much, accepting that on high magnification every disturbance is exaggerated. Bottom line is I don’t think that a Muzzle Brake is going to make much difference in CSR and a better result would be achieved with a little extra weight - that’s where I might be heading on next seasons rifle. |
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Just had a look on Brownells site and the DPMS Miculek brake's not too pricey I paid around £55 for a Bennie Cooley from Brownells late last year. It does need timing, they say drill a 3/16 hole in the flat, right hand side for right handed shooters, other side for lefties. I have a Bennie Cooley right here, and it does indeed have a hole bored in the right hand side, although it's not 3/16". It looks smaller. I think it's Limeys old one and although the initials are the same, I'm not so sure it's Bennie Cooley....I think it's a Bobbie Clarkey
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I have a Bennie Cooley right here, and it does indeed have a hole bored in the right hand side, although it's not 3/16". It looks smaller. I think it's Limeys old one and although the initials are the same, I'm not so sure it's Bennie Cooley....I think it's a Bobbie Clarkey aaaay!! Glad you found it
ETA: IIRC that hole on the right hand side is threaded. |
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I have a Bennie Cooley right here, and it does indeed have a hole bored in the right hand side, although it's not 3/16". It looks smaller. I think it's Limeys old one and although the initials are the same, I'm not so sure it's Bennie Cooley....I think it's a Bobbie Clarkey aaaay!! Glad you found it
ETA: IIRC that hole on the right hand side is threaded. Always been here. Tis still here if you want it |
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Ok, I've been having a conversation with Derrick Martin about muzzle brakes.
He makes the Jakenator brake, and has made them in many configs from 1 to 5 ports. I asked him if he had ever seen any significant differences in performance between 1,2 &3 port brakes. His opinion is that three's are the loudest so they must be the best
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Ok, I've been having a conversation with Derrick Martin about muzzle brakes. He makes the Jakenator brake, and has made them in many configs from 1 to 5 ports. I asked him if he had ever seen any significant differences in performance between 1,2 &3 port brakes. His opinion is that three's are the loudest so they must be the best Probably followed by another of his regular sayings; "It don't matter". |
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Ok, I've been having a conversation with Derrick Martin about muzzle brakes. He makes the Jakenator brake, and has made them in many configs from 1 to 5 ports. I asked him if he had ever seen any significant differences in performance between 1,2 &3 port brakes. His opinion is that three's are the loudest so they must be the best Probably followed by another of his regular sayings; "It don't matter". Yeah I was kind of expecting that but he refrained....which is unusual
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Just had a look on Brownells site and the DPMS Miculek brake's not too pricey I paid around £55 for a Bennie Cooley from Brownells late last year. It does need timing, they say drill a 3/16 hole in the flat, right hand side for right handed shooters, other side for lefties. I have a Bennie Cooley right here, and it does indeed have a hole bored in the right hand side, although it's not 3/16". It looks smaller. I think it's Limeys old one and although the initials are the same, I'm not so sure it's Bennie Cooley....I think it's a Bobbie Clarkey My first brake was a "Blobbie Clarkey" clone and he had drilled the right hand side "by default"without checking the handedness of the shooter. The hole wasn't threaded but it went through the threads of the brake. Just found my installation leaflet, it says "drill a 3/16" hole in the flat area just ahead of the muzzle behind the first expansion chamber" |
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Steven_UK Yep, that was me. Its a 3 port "Bobby Clarky" and the chap next to me mentioned it on every detail. He said it was more the concussion than the noise which was disrupting him. I could only apologise........ Ah yes, I remember ! You didn't tape it up then 
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