PSG Competition Licence enables entry to PSG, Gallery Rifle and Mini Rifle (UK Only)
Pistol/LBF Competition Licence enables entry to Pistol (abroad/NI) and LBF (UK only)
Mini Rifle Competition Licence enables entry to Mini Rifle only (UK Only)

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From the UKPSA forums...



HTH

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Competition licenses aren,t required up to a certain level for shotgun or mini rifle . We run little comps to ipsc rules at Thurnscoe and anyone can enter. Its only when you get to the bigger copmps that the license is needed i think.

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What is the difference between these 'levels'? Is it the movement with the firearm (some actions/ movements / positions restricted) or just the size / importance within IPSC of the event?

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Thanks for the explanation on the levels, it has nothing to do with restrictions or limits on the type / difficulty of shooting then.

What about the other questions, are you / anyone able to answer them please?

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IPSC is IPSC is IPSC in reality the only thing that changes is the size & complexity of the match, the stages are basically built to the same principles.



Exactly, gun handling is gun handling is gun handling and safety is safety is safety, no matter what type of firearm is used
I like you, am at a bit of a loss when it comes to why you can do a shotgun course & then shoot rifle, & I have been playing the UKPSA game for over 15 years.



Because they way the UKPSA has evolved has turned it into the nanny state of UK shooting and so much has been passed down from generation to generation that all common sense has been lost and the members too indoctrinated that they think they must continually sit further tests to shoot further disciplines.
I have been told its because the thinking is a long gun be it rifle or shotgun have similar safety concerns & as shotgun has been the primary discipline since the handgun ban it saves those who have done the shotgun course from repeating it all again just for the rifle, the thinking is that the shotgun is more complicated than the rifle both ballistically & in its manual at arms & its easier to cover both in a single course. I don't know of a mini rifle only course that has been run in recent years, most do the shotgun course & then shoot rifle as well if they want.



A safety course is a safety course is a safety course. I think it is because the UKPSA has become a shotgun shooting association, with the other disciplines so ill supported and matches poorly attended, that the majority of the heirarchy are shotgunners with little consideration for these by-products have completely over-looked them, but while still drinking the IPSC kool-aid from the Vince Pinto cup of life think that having separate courses ( which have no real value) is the only way to go if they wish to remain part of the "Global Village".



I have been looking at the IPSC website today and reading through the requirements of some of the regions, and I see none that are as anal as the UK. Why is that?



True, some do have various safety levels that have to be attained, but this is something that can be achieved in short order rather than the protracted process that is still enforced by your "training division"



If people wished to shoot a pistol based discipline, then a simple bolt-on course is all that would be req'd for holster drill. Nothing more is needed than is already covered.



Is there even a Mini-rifle course in existence?



When I left the UKPSA 10 or so years ago, there was talk then of introducing a course, but has one ever been implemented?
Pistol is totally different however & when I did my pistol course back in 1995, finger off the trigger & muzzle awareness were a given but there is a lot of other stuff regarding the drawing of a loaded gun in order to avoid muzzle sweeping yourself & that needs to be covered & so that will always be a separate course



Yep, just said that too, but it only needs to be a short bolt-on
For what its worth I have been a campaigner within the association to make it easier for UK shooters to get involved in IPSC matches, but safety has to be the overriding concern above everything else, but I also accept its also about getting the balance right.



Which even after all these years they are no closer to achieving, mainly because they don't look outside their own world and have a captive and indoctrinated audience. They have a new one too, coz only recently Baldie Dave licked the lid of life and has begun to chant the mantra (Barnsley accent req'd here) "you can never be too safe and anyone that says they don't learn anything from these courses is a bloody idiot".
Currently IPSC allow regions to set their own safety course requirements & the UK is far from being alone in setting such a standard, many other IPSC regions have similar courses based on the one we use, IPSC are working on an international standard course & so its only a matter of a short time before all IPSC regions must have something similar in place.



And as usual with all things British, the UKPSA takes it too far. This is probably why they gained so much acceptance with the mandarins at the Home Office, ACPO et al when our handguns were banned and the UKPSA feared it was the end for them.
The bottom line with any IPSC sanctioned match (level3 & above) is that after you have sent your entry, the match organisers from which ever region is hosting the match will contact your regional director (currently George Granycome UKPSA) & ask if you are competent to shoot the match, he will consult with the membership secretary first to check you are a fully paid up member of our IPSC region (UKPSA) & second if you have passed a safety course in the discipline required, if all is in order he will OK your entry into the match & your in, this is done on purpose by IPSC to ensure that only paid up members of IPSC regional associations who have passed a safety course get too compete in their matches, be they at a national or international level.



No, the bottom line is that after you have done this safety thing, a record of it need merely be kept and no stupid "Competition License" (whatever that is) need be required.



In fact from what I gather, you can only enter Intl matches through your regional director, so he would be the one that would sign off on whether you could enter that match, again making the whole "Competition License" (whatever that is) issue as pointless as it is.



Simply put, do the course and get a competency card like everyone else does and not give it a poncy name.
UKPSA gets a lot of stick, but much of the BS is forced upon it by IPSC, No, much of it is self-implemented and that's why in UK shooting circles they are seen as a laughing stock & there is only so much room to maneuver, no there isn't, there is plenty of room but I feel the UKPSA could maybe do more to make things easier to compete within the UK.



You're not kidding there
There are elections coming up in January for all of the UKPSA council seats, the membership are restless, perhaps this year will be the year of change.



Yeah, good luck with that! As The Who said, "meet the new boss, same as the old boss"



HTH



Jonh

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ACR26

IPSC is IPSC is IPSC in reality the only thing that changes is the size & complexity of the match, the stages are basically built too the same principles.

I like you, am at a bit of a loss when it comes to why you can do a shotgun course & then shoot rifle, & I have been playing the UKPSA game for over 15 years.

I have been told its because the thinking is a long gun be it rifle or shotgun have similar safety concerns & as shotgun has been the primary discipline since the handgun ban it saves those who have done the shotgun course from repeating it all again just for the rifle, the thinking is that the shotgun is more complicated than the rifle both ballistically & in its manual at arms & its easier to cover both in a single course. I don't know of a mini rifle only course that has been run in recent years, most do the shotgun course & then shoot rifle as well if they want.

Pistol is totally different however & when I did my pistol course back in 1995, finger off the trigger & muzzle awareness were a given but there is a lot of other stuff regarding the drawing of a loaded gun in order to avoid muzzle sweeping yourself & that needs to be covered & so that will always be a separate course

For what its worth I have been a campaigner within the association to make it easier for UK shooters to get involved in IPSC matches, but safety has to be the overriding concern above everything else, but I also except its also about getting the balance right.

Currently IPSC allow regions to set their own safety course requirements & the UK is far from being alone in setting such a standard, many other IPSC regions have similar courses based on the one we use, IPSC are working on an international standard course & so its only a matter of a short time before all IPSC regions must have something similar in place.

The bottom line with any IPSC sanctioned match (level3 & above) is that after you have sent your entry, the match organisers from which ever region is hosting the match will contact your regional director (currently George Granycome UKPSA) & ask if you are competent to shoot the match, he will consult with the membership secretary first to check you are a fully paid up member of our IPSC region (UKPSA) & second if you have passed a safety course in the discipline required, if all is in order he will OK your entry into the match & your in, this is done on purpose by IPSC to ensure that only paid up members of IPSC regional associations who have passed a safety course get too compete in their matches, be they at a national or international level.

UKPSA gets a lot of stick, but much of the BS is forced upon it by IPSC, & there is only so much room to maneuver, but I feel the UKPSA could maybe do more to make things easier to compete within the UK.

There are elections coming up in January for all of the UKPSA council seats, the membership are restless, perhaps this year will be the year of change.

HTH
Jonh

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I hope there will be a more inclusive attitude from any regime change.

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Safety courses are great....
I am considerably safer than yow !

Opening zipper
Removing weapon.
Pulling back f––eskin
load & make ready...

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Fail

You are neither at the firing point or in the safety area, you are in fact DQ'd. Put it away and go home!

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In fact from what I gather, you can only enter Intl matches through your regional director, so he would be the one that would sign off on whether you could enter that match, again making the whole "Competition License" (whatever that is) issue as pointless as it is.
Simply put, do the course and get a competency card like everyone else does and not give it a poncy name.

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ETA:
I would dearly love some of our US IPSC shooting cousins to read these threads and chime in and laugh at your daftness too

 

Hi Mark

I agree the comp licence system is a farce, I have never needed it, but without doing the course I wouldn't have been able to enter any foreign matches, but what you describe is actually what happens, except you can enter level 3 international matches on-line without going through your RD, but the match organisers will contact him to check you are a member & if in his opinion you are eligible to enter, (safe etc)

Level 4 & 5 are different as the match entry slots are issued by IPSC to our Region & they (council) distribute them as they see fit. each region is given a quota of slots based on the size of its membership. If slots are limited then a selection process is implimented usually based on previous scores leading up to the match.

Merry Xmas
Jonh

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you can enter level 3 international matches on-line without going through your RD, but the match organisers will contact him to check you are a member & if in his opinion you are eligible to enter, (safe etc)

Jonh,  As a genuine point of interest, you say you need to do the safety course to be able to shoot the international matches.

My understanding is that the other IPSC Regions don't require this safety course be completed.... and that there is no official set safety course for the IPSC globally.  Is this correct?

Jonh,  As a genuine point of interest, you say you need to do the safety course to be able to shoot the international matches.

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Income generation by another means then?

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Funky

Their are quite a few regions that do require a safety course, IPSC Germany is one & they have a similar course to ours.

UKPSA are I'm guessing just ensuring they only have people who have taken some kind of safety course entering IPSC matches abroad & representing us as a region, they don't want any potentially unsafe shooters showing us up in other regions, depending on your opinion you may or may not agree with that restriction but its the way it is at the moment.

Currently you are correct there is no mandatory IPSC course, but IPSC HQ are working on a modified version of the Canadian Black Badge course that will be implemented before very long from the gossip I've heard.

Jonh.

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In answer to the question of why does a shotgun course also cover you for rifle: similiarity of equipment. There is no rifle course and for those that want(ed) to do it some mechanism  of assessment was deemed necessary.

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Ipsc rules will soon dq any unsafe shooter

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Visiting competitors are require approval from their RD/National Shooting Body before they can take part in the match. Not all regions have a Safety Course, some due to logistical problems (not enough viable members) some for historic reasons, some because they dont think its needed.

In answer to the question of why does a shotgun course also cover you for rifle: similiarity of equipment. There is no rifle course and for those that want(ed) to do it some mechanism  of assessment was deemed necessary. A bolt action rifle is a little simpler in use than a PA shotgun though not much and as you are all painfully aware we dont have SA rifles so any tricks and wriggles that they might fling up in use could not be taught anyway.

regards

James

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Why do you wish to know ?

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I find it curious that the IPSC do not require anything internationally, but the UKPSA do and won't let anyone compete unless they have done a course.

Thats down to history


The course might be interesting and good in many respects, but to asume someone isn't a safe shooter because they haven't done a safety course and prevent them from competing seems counter-productive.

I agree that just becuase someone has not done the basic course it does not mean they are not safe. In fact I know a number of shooters whose ability far exceeds that of many of the "top UKPSA shooters" who have not done a basic course.

I've just found out that it's possible to undertake the UKPSA "competition certificate" training, and pass it.  However you MUST become a member of the UKPSA within six months of passing the course otherwise your certification is revoked.  It would appear that unless you maintain your membership with the UKPSA that any safety certification you have is automatically unlearned when you cease to be a member.

Not quite, unless you join within 6 months your , wait for it, Competition Licence will not be granted. Your Basic Safety course pass is valid until you drop dead.   If you cease to be a member then re-join at a later date i think that you are asked to undergo a re-assessment, just to make sure you havent forgotten.

Yet, you can "apply" a shotgun safety certification to a bolt action .308 "because it's almost the same thing"......   Fact is, it isn't.  Discharging birdshot with an effective range of 150yds from a shotgun is one thing, discharging a ballistically efficient solid lump of copper and lead, travelling at twice the muzzle velocity and with range measured in thousands of yards requires a very different set of understanding.

The safety course is more about handling than specific ballistics. In the UK you would require your Safe Shooter cert before you use the rifle anyway, so why should we duplicate that knowledge which you must have already?  Or are you saying we should make the training and testing regime even more lengthy.

This is all a bit of  mountian out of a molehill, the reason for the dual certication was because I  (yes me) wished to compete in an overseas Rifle match, to prevent cries of unfair by letting me compete without a comp licnece (which i couldnt get as there was no course) the UKPSA took the view that as I had the Sg comp license and had proven knowledge of rifle that was sufficient.

It seems that the UKPSA is saying that you cease to be considered safe to shoot unless you fork out for membership, thereby making membership a condition of being considered a safe shooter.

No, you can use your club safety scheme or the NRA one, you do not have to be a member to go on any of the basic course, only if you want to compete in UKPSA anctioned mathces

It just seems very complicated, un-necessarily bureaucratic and riddled with dependancies that prohibit you taking one action unless you have completed another.

I'm sure there are aspects of the course are very good in terms of speeding up the shooting and enhancing the capability of the shooter to complete a course of fire more quickly while still remaining safe, however, itseems that is a desirable rather than a necessity and a fundamental principle.

I'm sure you can understand some of confusion and difficulties many of us have in understanding some of the nuances of the the IPSC and UKPSA relationship, and the whole safety cert issue.  It would be so much easier to see a more open and less isolationist UKPSA from my perspective.

chnage from within is best, join and vote

I have shooting's best interests at heart.

oh good please stand for a postion on the UKPSA council

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Thanks but no thanks.  

shame



I don't assume to have all the answers, which is why I asked the questions. What I do have is a strong interest in shooting, and have been shooting in some form or other since I was 8 years old.

Late starter then!

The need for seperate organising bodies for the different discplines is clear, as it provides forcus for the development of the competitive framework, however all assiciations need to be open and accepting of new and prospective members with cost being held to a minimum and obstacles to participation being removed wherever possible.

I personally don’t see the need for separate shooting organisations, unfortunately there are too many entrenched vested interests to make unification a viable proposition, perhaps once our liberal government whittles us down to one bolt action .22 each with a .410 to go with then we will all be able to unite……

This requires transparency, an association leadership that is representative of the shooters who are paying their fees and a compulsory rotation of committee members to ensure no stagnation, the introduction of new blood, enthusiasm and a committee that leads by example, not restriction.

Hooray!  Are you sure that you don’t want to be on the Council?



You make reference to the NRA's shooter certification cards....however they are only relevant on MOD ranges owned and operated by Landmark (happy to stand corrected on this one if I'm wrong).


And where else would you shoot? Yes I know that there are private fullbore ranges but not many, its all kind of irrelevant as the only ranges that I know of that are suitable for UKPSA rifle are MOD ones.

Furthermore you don't need to pay to do a two day course to get it.... My current Chariman is able to sign me off a safe because he sees me shooting and running competitions as a RO. In effect they are two different ways of going about demonstrating safety and shooting experience. In both cases however the safe conduct of a shooter depends on what is done in the moment.... not what is printed on a piece of paper, so it is sensible and reasonable to question the validity of a competiton safety "certificate".

[b]Just like a driving license or an MOT really. There should be the option to carry out a continual assessment like you allude to , in fact there is the club couching route which entails covering the whole syllabus over time in segments, culminating in a final assessment. But I only know of on in the last 5 years, I ran it BTW. Its not offered as a means of training , though I don’t know why[b]

I believe, from what I have heard that the safety course offers some real benefits to the type of competitve shotgun shooting which the UKPSA specialises and excels in, with a focus on being safe and quick through a course of fire. That sounds like an interesting course that should be offered as an enhancement to your shooting abilities, not as a compulsory measure of safety.

[b]Im not in unequivocal agreement with you there, but there is some merit in what you say.[b]



It's great that more UKPSA members are joining this forum as it enables us to learn more about what goes on. You are all welcome here as far as I'm concerned, however be prepared to be asked some interesting questions and please don't feel like it's a "pile-on" - that certainly isn't my intention  


[b]Please ask away, I find it refreshing to get honest answers and direct questions. [b]

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I find it curious that the IPSC do not require anything internationally, but the UKPSA do and won't let anyone compete unless they have done a course.



Thats down to history

It's down to being overly PC, bowing to the nanny state and being ridiculous, that's what it is





 The course might be interesting and good in many respects, but to asume someone isn't a safe shooter because they haven't done a safety course and prevent them from competing seems counter-productive.



I agree that just becuase someone has not done the basic course it does not mean they are not safe. In fact I know a number of shooters whose ability far exceeds that of many of the "top UKPSA shooters" who have not done a basic course.

Indeed, every time I look at UKPSA match results, I am dumbfounded by the amount of people who end up getting DQ'd, even after all the training and "experience" they're suppose to have through shooting matches.





I've just found out that it's possible to undertake the UKPSA "competition certificate" training, and pass it.  However you MUST become a member of the UKPSA within six months of passing the course otherwise your certification is revoked.  It would appear that unless you maintain your membership with the UKPSA that any safety certification you have is automatically unlearned when you cease to be a member.



Not quite, unless you join within 6 months your , wait for it, Competition Licence will not be granted. Your Basic Safety course pass is valid until you drop dead.   If you cease to be a member then re-join at a later date i think that you are asked to undergo a re-assessment, just to make sure you havent forgotten.

This is where it's most stupid. You're a UKPSA member and have done the basic course to prove you're safe. You don't need any further categorisation through a stupid "competition license" (whatever that is). You've already met the criteria.

Yet, you can "apply" a shotgun safety certification to a bolt action .308 "because it's almost the same thing"......   Fact is, it isn't.  Discharging birdshot with an effective range of 150yds from a shotgun is one thing, discharging a ballistically efficient solid lump of copper and lead, travelling at twice the muzzle velocity and with range measured in thousands of yards requires a very different set of understanding.





The safety course is more about handling than specific ballistics. In the UK you would require your Safe Shooter cert before you use the rifle anyway, so why should we duplicate that knowledge which you must have already?  Or are you saying we should make the training and testing regime even more lengthy.

Wrong, the NRA safe shooter cert is a relatively new thing to allow you to shoot on MoD ranges.

The UKPSA has always had these daft criteria (unlike the rest of the sensible free and not free world) obstacles. Please don't piggy back off the NRA system to justify yourselves.



This is all a bit of  mountian out of a molehill, the reason for the dual certication was because I  (yes me) wished to compete in an overseas Rifle match, to prevent cries of unfair by letting me compete without a comp licnece (which i couldnt get as there was no course) and none is needed the UKPSA took the view that as I had the Sg comp license and had proven knowledge of rifle that was sufficient. Because they feel that they have to be seen to be doing something

It seems that the UKPSA is saying that you cease to be considered safe to shoot unless you fork out for membership, thereby making membership a condition of being considered a safe shooter.



No, you can use your club safety scheme or the NRA one, you do not have to be a member to go on any of the basic course, only if you want to compete in UKPSA anctioned mathces



It just seems very complicated, un-necessarily bureaucratic and riddled with dependancies that prohibit you taking one action unless you have completed another.



I'm sure there are aspects of the course are very good in terms of speeding up the shooting and enhancing the capability of the shooter to complete a course of fire more quickly while still remaining safe, however, itseems that is a desirable rather than a necessity and a fundamental principle.



I'm sure you can understand some of confusion and difficulties many of us have in understanding some of the nuances of the the IPSC and UKPSA relationship, and the whole safety cert issue.  It would be so much easier to see a more open and less isolationist UKPSA from my perspective.



chnage from within is best, join and vote



I have shooting's best interests at heart.



oh good please stand for a postion on the UKPSA council

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No such thing, please don't kid any of us that there is
 

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No such thing, please don't kid any of us that there is
 

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That was my next question - UKPSA Rifle???    Never heard of it.

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No wonder most people view the UKPSA as the North Korea of shooting

Didn't know that