[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Selling rifles.. Question (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 8/17/2007 1:25:41 PM EDT
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I have few rifles I inheriated from my dad's death back in 98. He was a lefty and Im a righty, so I have few rifles I cant/wont shoot. My question is how do I go about a sales deal? What all do I need to do to legaly sale them? Any paperwork I need to do first? Or is just as simple as finding a buyer, I get money, he/she gets rifle, end of story? Ill write up a bill of sale of course... |
You really should get their name and address and drivers license and give them a bill of sale and have them sign it as receiving the rifle. This is for your own protection. |
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Yea they will all be FTF in state sales... Hell prolly within the same county (a few of my buds are wanting them) But I plan to type up a form with all their personal info on it, weapon info (serial number and discription), and have both me and the buyer, prolly a witness too, sign and date. Both my folks are LEO's along with ALOT of my friends, so a small check may be ran also... |
what are you guys trying to protect yourselves from? future litigation stemming from some future crime? say a guy is shot with Dad's deer rifle. and the rifle is found at the crime scene. they will call the manufacturer and can trace it to the distributer and the gun store. maybe all the way to your father's estate. they may look at the dispensation of the estate and see that you got it. you then tell them you sold it at a gun show and you don't remember who you sold it to. so they say crap. the trail has gone cold and you were 100% within your rights to sell the gun without a bill of sale. just hand the buyer the rifle and take their cash, shake their hand and walk away without any more info. i consider the face to face buying and selling of guns to be one of the last exorcises of what little remains of our second amendment rights! |
using offical 'checks' for personal reasons is illegal. Tell me again why you would want a bill of sale to protect yourself if you are willing to have others break the law before the sale. |
that's ok man. we know what you meant!  TXI can be a little hard nosed sometimes but he means well. after all, in the barnyard some animals are more equal than others. |
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Still, you ask me for that info, I'll do a 180 and walk away. I have never had a problem selling or buying FTF. The responsibility passes the day money/gun is exchanged. If the law knocks on my door years down the road, you just say "I sold that gun years ago". End of discussion. How do I know you are not some guy that keeps that info. for bad purposes? Too bad. I am a lefty and wanted some lefty additions.  |
+1 You may see my CHL if you wish, but you're not writing it down. Same if I sell a rifle. I want to see your CHL, most likely, but I'm not writing it down. I bought a C&R one time from a local guy who is also a C&R. We exchanged C&Rs which have your full name and address. That was kind of weird but I trust the guy I was dealing with so I got over it. We need fewer pieces of papers with gunowners names and serial numbers on them, not more. |
| Ill admit in the past Ive asked for name and DL or CHL # of the person I was selling a gun to. I thought I would be held responsible for the use of the gun from when I bought it until I die if I didnt have a record of who I sold it to. I will be rethinking that in the future though. Good to know. |
| The way the ATF would have you do it is go to a dealer and transfer the gun on a 4473 form. This is no good because it usually costs money. The guys are right. You are not responsible for this in Texas as an individual, yet. Just be sure that the guy you sell your rifle(s) to isn't a psycho and you should be alright. Even though a lot of us do not exchange information, for the few of us that do it gives us the peice of mind that we did not put a gun in the hands of a convicted felon. |
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Actually, I think you'd have fewer liability problems as the seller w/o any paper trail at all. How is some lawyer going to track you down (or prove anything even if he does) without paperwork? I've bought and sold a few guns as private, ftf deals. Never did any paperwork or signed anything on any of em. In fact, I think its a good way to prevent de facto registration. The more people who own "no-trail" guns, the better, in my opinion. Remember that bullshit propaganda film about the guy who traces the sale of the gun used to kill his son? Good luck doing that here. I agree with making a reasonable effort to make sure the buyer ain't a felon or something. |
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I know some folks who buy guns at estate auctions. They get really good deals and there are no background checks or registrations at all. It's considered a private sale by the estate. You can take your unloaded firearm to a gun show and offer it for sale to dealers or an individual. It's pretty common for people to sell or trade their guns at a show. |
Amen, and hallelujah. This is exactly how I do it. I dont blame anyone if they think that getting DL info or a bill of sale protects them from something.... but I just tend to do things the legal way. You hand buyer the weapon, they hand you the cash. Just like selling a sofa. No different, and NO NEED to be any different. |
Explain to me how you as an individual can determine via a bill of sale, or drivers license, that the buyer does not have any felony convictions? |
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This is the info and comments I was looking for. Ive only bought one rifle (My AR) on an FTF deal. We both know each other and had each others info (we worked together). Y'all answered ALOT of question I had in mind! Forget the info, get money, give gun, go home... Thanks! ---edited - no selling in here - you can ask what they are worth, but do not advertise in any way. --- FALARAK Remington 788 243 w/ Weaver 4x (RH)  Savage 110CL 30-06 w/ Bushnell 3x9 (LH)  Savage U/K model 243 w/ Tasco 3x9 (LH)  Stevens 110E 30-06 w/ no scope (RH)  Thompson Contender Super 14 30-30 (LH&RH Grips)  They are in OK condition... The Contender is in great shape, dont think it was shot more than 20times. Shoot me some ideas of what they may worth... |
hk, you hit the nail on the head. The day we have to go through dealers to make a private sale will be the beginning of the end. I have sold and bought alot through privat sales and I don't want anybody's info and I don't want them to have mine. If the buyer/purchaser has the "shakes/nervous twitch" or looks like a gang banger, then I'll pass. YMMV |
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here's my take on it If I sell a gun to an individual that I know (someone from the boards, friend of a friend, so on) I'll do it FTF shake hands trade money and walk away as I have a way to somewhat track you down should a problem arise If I'm at a gun show and a complete stranger walks up and wants to buy a gun I'm trying to sell I get name address phone number and DL. If you don't want to give up the info you don't get the gun. If you sell a hunting rifle to someone just because they don't look like a gang banger and they look all right. then that gun is used to assassinate the pres or someone else do you really believe they are going to buy the "I sold it to some stranger" line might as well tell them you had a tragic boating accident and that fell overboard and you don't know where it went. I spoke with a cop buddy he said here's how it works without any documentation to back up the sale you will have to fill out an affidavit stating that you sold it. Your name then goes into the report. The report then goes tot he ATF and the agent there gives you a call. You file another affidavit stating that you sold the weapon. They then want a description of the guy you sold it to. You then will become a witness for the state and have to testify in court when this comes to trial. You are also setting yourself up to civil liability for latter litigation for having sold the gun to the person in the first place. or you fill out a receipt your name, address, and DL the buyer provides same info you date it and both sign this document releases you from all of the above they make a copy of the document put it into evidence and your done but ymmv |
That's BS. Without a NOTARIZED receipt, you will still have to testify that the receipt is real AND is a true and accurate representation of what occurred. |
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I don't get the CHL crap I have seen a few deals I would have licked to pick up but the adds read "FTF w/ CHL only" is the guy w/ a CHL better than me or something. Just becouse I have never been able to justify getting my CHL does not mean I am not qualified. There are alot of guys like me who are just as into guns, and have just as much right to own them as a CHL holder and have not found a CHL necessary. |
No they are not better or more qualified. It is a certification that they have had a background check done by the gov, and they can buy a firearms no problem. When you have a CHL and want to buy a gun anywhere in the state of Texas (considering the license is isssued in Texas) from a licensed dealer. you do not have to be called into the Federal NICS check. Which means fill out the 4473, exchange money and firearm, you're done. |
Whether you got a DL, or not - has NO bearing on being called as a witness in a trial. None. |
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tell that to the cop he related 2 stories to me one guy sells gun to person person uses gun in crime original owner has paper with sig and dl numbers Original owner is questioned provides paper they make copy use it as evidence Plano cop sells gun to a guy no paper work 3 days later guy caps himself with gun cop gets major questions when he sold it where is paper work goes to court because shooter wasn't suposed to be able to own a gun (no way for cop to know that) cop gets sued by widow in civil trial I relate what cop told me I asked him directly because of this thread Don't want to do any paper work when you sell a gun don't Don't want to buy a gun and do paper work then you might miss a good deal whatever makes you sleep better at night |
See the difference between when a cop does it AND the guy offs himself? If they are going to hassle you over no receipt, one that is not notarized and could have been made up will get you the same hassle. It is comon sense. |
Why does it have to be notarized? His signature is just as good. Verbal agreements hold up in court sometimes in Texas. And in regards to an incident were a weapon was used in a crime after you sold it FTF w/ paper work, all you would provide them with is the invoice. That gives them enough Probable Cause to investigate the individual you sold it to without taking you into custody as a suspect. Which may lead them to the suspect. Paper work WILL NOT SAVE YOUR ASS, but it might give you peice of mind. This discussion is bordering the morality line. No it is not your JOB to enforce the law as a citizen, and no you do not have to have paper work. But, how would you feel if the guy at the gun show you sold your rifle to used it to kill his family or randomly shoot people at will, then left the gun behind? You'd probably feel like crap, and would be willing to help authorities to find and burn the bastard, but wait... you have no information! Menawhile, you become the suspect until authorities can figure out that you didnt do it. This, as we all know, can take a while. Guys, if this kind of situation happens...IFF... you still will not be prosectued by the law, but you will be going through a lot of B.S. trying to clear your name.
Agreed... Be a responsible gun owner. |
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Wow... Really wasnt expecting to get this much interest in my topic. Its good to see IMO, the way people debate their points. Let me see if I can sum this up and try to paraphrase the whole thing... If selling a weapon, paper work and proof of sale isnt manditory, although, it is good to have in the instance the buyer is a crazy killer. Having said paper work, may save you some time and headache and may aid in catching said killer. How does that sound? Fairly close to the points being made here? |
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I only sell to close family or to reputable FFL. If your firearm you sold at the gunshow is ever used in a murder or other serious crime, and the last trace they can get on the 4473 leads back to you, you are leaving yourself open for some serious questioning from a prosecutor and depending on the situation you may be forced to lawyer up. The old "I sold it to some guy" excuse isn't going to fly if some anti-gun prosecutor up for re-election decides to make your life a living hell. If you sell to a reputable FFL, you can quickly get the prosecutor off your ass and onto his. I fully believe that individuals should be free to sell firearms to others without any government interference, but the movement by urban prosecutors to criminalize anyone associated with a firearm at all has made me paranoid about selling to strangers. |
So your saying you get all your receipts notarized? Lets say you buy a 26" plasma TV from wal-mart You need money and have to pawn it for a few weeks. While in the pawn detail somehow the s/n comes back as stolen according to your logic the wally world receipt does you no good because it wasn't notarized and witnessed by at least 4 non interested individuals. No the receipt is good enough to give the police/atf/fbi/poletzi/or whoever a lead and take your name off their suspect list. And for you guys that say its not your job to do this and its something the police and NICS should be concerned with. Its also not your job to protect yourself from burglary, rape or robbery also correct. I mean if a big bad robber approaches you with a knife/club/gun/rope/astroglide you'll be able to call 911 and let the police handle that also right? the point of this is it may not be your JOB but it should be your RESPONSIBILITY and people wonder why our hobby/sport/way of life is declining |
I am offended at your implication that not taking information is irresponsible. I completely disagree... and it pisses me off that you would implicate such a thing. You wanna write a book? Knock yourself out. Dont tell me I am irresponsible or immoral for following the law, the constitution, and my personal beliefs. 
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Can you quote some actual cases where someone was convicted, or even arrested, for simply having owned a weapon in the past. ANYTHING beyond simple questioning? Or is this a big assumption? I am not discrediting your decision to only sell to FFLS.... that's your choice. But what exactly is it based on? |
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I dont change my deeply rooted beliefs based on the current court of public opinion, nor do I care what some stupid hippy gun hater thinks.
I didnt take it as a personal attack on me.... however, your words stated it was irresponsible, and bordeline immoral, not to collect paperwork. That is offensive to me.
I get offended by all kinds of stuff. Doesnt mean I "retaliate".... which would affect my moderatorship. My skin is real thick. Me being a morderator means I dont get to have an opinion.... or even a strong one? Hey - I like a good debate as much as the next guy.
I agree with your first statement. That's how I feel too. As to your second statement.... dont call me immoral or irresponsible for not doing things your way.... and I wont have to worry with it. Words have meanings. 
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It's not bad publicity, it's the truth. t |
My county DA (Mr. "I hate gunowners" Rosenthal) is not fond of the 2nd amendment. Just check out the AK forum for evidence, there is a whole thread 1000 pages long devoted to it. Not only does he arrest/prosecute those for legally owning firearms but he also arrest/prosecutes those who are legally traveling with them as well. Do you not know about him? I thought everyone in the state knew about this dumbass by now. He's the one that told the state legislature to FOAD and that he alone would determine what was law and what was not. I wouldn't put anything past this piece of shit. He has shown time and time again that he has only the utmost contempt for gunowners and has no respect for the law and the state legislature. Trust my life with this guy, don't think so... FFL only for me please. |
The DA in the next county over is the same way. Not sure his stance on gunowners and what not, but he's one of those "I rule the world" pricks... Even made the statement "I am GOD in this county, Ill do what I want, when I want!" Sure am glad our DA is fairly desent... |
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I guess I am confused.... If I sell a gun to someone FTF and that gun is later used in a crime. I don't see how any type of paperwork could prevent me from being sued in a civil court. (Anyone can sue anyone these days.) Now whether they would win or not, I dunno. I would think that you would be fairly safe as long as you did not knowingly sell to a felon or a minor as it is not illegal to sell without paperwork. I know I bought my first AR at a gunshow from a guy - no paperwork, except the green stuff. Of course, it just occurred to me that I took a risk too, the gun could have been hot. If it turns out to be stolen, best I could do now is say I bought it from some guy at a gunshow 10 yrs ago. ( No, I don't remember what he looked like, or if I bought it at a show in Houston, Corpus, or San Antonio. ) |
It will also help the government when they come to confiscate all firearms from the citizenry of this nation. That's why I wouldn't buy one from someone who demanded a copy of my DL or other personal info such as address. Giving a seller that info could also make me the target for a break in/theft of my firearms. |
In that scenario, having a receipt wouldn't have changed a thing. It would just be proof that the cop sold a gun to someone who isn't allowed to have one - how would that help in a civil suit? It wouldn't. |
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Actually what it looked like the the police is the cop knew he was going to cap himself and let him borrow the gun As stated many times there is no way to know the person's mental or criminal status before selling the gun to the person you have to make a judgement call had the cop had a receipt it would show when the person A) took posesion of the firearm and B) that the cop more than likely didn't know he had planed to expose his brain to the sun since he was CYA with the receipt As said before if you don't want a recepit don't fill out/collect one odds are you will never need it either way but if you need it well just tell then you were protecting yourself from the possible .gov collection/burglar/zombie attack that you felt was comming ETA cuz I don't wanna bump it if you sell a gun to a guy that makes you feel like you should check on the family, call for backup, move then you must have sold it to someone who might have a felony and would then be a bad move on your part and breaking the law. unless you get the warm and fuzzy's from the guy don't sell it to him also you have his info also so if you think he's the one that did it you can |
Probably like shit (until my rationality overcame my vaginal emotions), but I also don't really think my "feelings" are anyone else's concern. If some guy was going to kill his family or randomly shoot people, he didn't need my gun to do it. Read the papers long enough, you'll find plenty of people who killed their family with a spork. You'll find plenty of people who randomly shot people with a gun that you didn't sell them. Only thing I'd probably "feel" bad about long-term is that I didn't sell the gun to one of the victims instead (because then they'd at least be equally able to face off the guy who *still* managed to get a gun). But if I could see the future that well, I'd be playing the lottery and taking ALL the guns off the market by buying them all for me with my billions in winnings. |
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This is just plain sad. Gun owners (Texans at that) giving up their rights faster than the gun-grabbers can take them away. No need to to close the "gun show loophole", Texas gun owners are doing it voluntarily. As to be expected, their logic is not based on facts or reality, just some warped idea of a worst-case scenario. Anyone ever had a gun traced? I have. Nothing happens. You either tell them who you sold it to or you don't, it ends there. I know this as a FACT for having sold a RPB M10 that was illegally converted to Full-Auto and used in a murder. For the most part, tracing of guns is about as useful for crime solving as tracing knives. Most crime guns are never traced anyway, it is a TV myth that guns are routinely traced. Stop giving up your rights like a New York Sheep and start exercising them like a Texan. |
Name one case where someone in legally owning firearms was prosecuted. Also please cite violation of law they was charged with. It ain't happening. I hate to say it, but his interpretation of the traveling presumption was correct. It is a presumption. I pointed this out to TSRA when it was proposed, they ignored me. Well in 8 days it does not matter, the law will changed. The Harris DA is a great guy in my book. He has done more to enable handgun carry without a license than the highest paid lobbyist in Texas. I hope he keeps it up, we will soon have open carry! |
The only moral issue I see is folks giving up rights they have enjoyed for over 200+ years while our soldiers are in Iraq risking their lives to protect those rights. It my moral policy to NEVER give up rights other Americans are risking their lives to protect. |
+1 TXL |
To be honest, when I first heard his argument, I thought he was (like you) trying to be a Devil's Advocate and actually help them write/word the law more strongly to protect gunowners. Then I heard the name of the guy making the argument.....  I tend to think of him more as a useful idiot, but if the end result is the same, I guess it's not too much of a stretch to think of him as a "good guy". (you just won't convince me, though!)
I hope to hell you're right! I'm ready to throw off the last vestiges of Reconstruction (well, maybe not the last, but an important/oppressive one, nonetheless). I only lament that my grandmother couldn't live long enough to see it. |