[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Semi Auto Shotguns (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 6/16/2011 4:39:47 AM EDT
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Hello,
I've been thinking/looking, and generally deciding if I should buy a semi auto shotgun. My club do IPSC with shotguns, and that is the only thing that this gun will be used for. I am waiting for them to start doing 3 gun competeions, when this starts I will defiantly get one. What shotguns do people have, and what do people recommend? From looking around, the only semi auto shotgun I like the look off is the Saiga 12. I like that it has a box mag. |
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Winchester SX3 - Enough said!
I do a lot of practical shotgun, and in my opinion it's the best shotgun out there! They are fast, light, and just work! Keep them clean, and they won't let you down! All you need to do to them is put a nordic tube and clamp on, and maybe a big button bolt release, and then you're good to go! And they are £200+ cheaper than an M2. P.S. IMO, Saiga's aren't proper shotguns... they're overgrown assault rifles... |
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Quoted:
Winchester SX3 - Enough said! I do a lot of practical shotgun, and in my opinion it's the best shotgun out there! They are fast, light, and just work! Keep them clean, and they won't let you down! All you need to do to them is put a nordic tube and clamp on, and maybe a big button bolt release, and then you're good to go! And they are £200+ cheaper than an M2. P.S. IMO, Saiga's aren't proper shotguns... they're overgrown assault rifles... Therein lies the problem..... 
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Winchester SX3 - Enough said! I do a lot of practical shotgun, and in my opinion it's the best shotgun out there! They are fast, light, and just work! Keep them clean, and they won't let you down! All you need to do to them is put a nordic tube and clamp on, and maybe a big button bolt release, and then you're good to go! And they are £200+ cheaper than an M2. The SX3 is a pretty faultless shotgun & it does not need as much pissing about with to make it competitive, read no shell lifter that eats your fingers & needs welding / smoothing or replacement & the loading port opening up with significant dremmeling. I have both & imho the SX3 works better for me personally. |
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If you want something cheaper with minimal amount of fiddling and are prepared to strip it regularly and keep it clean I'd go SX3, I'm not a fan of the dovetail scope mounting.
For me it's the Benelli M2 as baldie has done a beautiful job of putting a rail on top and fitting a non thumb biting carrier is easy, seems there's quite a bit you can fiddle with if you want too. The Saiga looks like a lot of fun and if you can get the loading working quickly and the thing working reliably they're a good option as in PSG loading fast=winning Best advice I can give is have a quiet go with as many as you can (nudge)(nudge) before you splash the cash.
The M3 is good if you need Semi and Pump in the one gun and you have strong arms but for my money I prefer having a decent semi and a cheap pump for some fun 
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I think you need to ask yourself is what you want to compete in before you buy - there are two distinct classes you can shoot in. The Seiga, box fed or Open class and the more traditional shotgun Standard class. Its fair to say even most non UKPSA shoots identify the two classes as there is such an advantage using a box fed gun over a tube fed then its not fair to lump the shooters all into one class.
The trouble then is that Seiga shooters only shoot against Open shooters and there tends to be less of them in PSG than Standard shooters. In most comps I go to there will be 95% of competitors shooting Standard and 5% Open, so you may just end up competing against yourself. If you want to see how you do against everyone else I would say buy a Standard gun and have fun. The SX 2/3 series and Benelli M1 / M2 will both do you proud. Be wary of buying an M3 as you can only enter Standard Auto with it in IPSC. The advice re buying a semi and a pump instead of a gun that does both is good advice. If there were more than 5 Open shooters in the UKPSA competition circuit I would consider buying an Open gun, but due to the lack of numbers shooting Open guns makes it kinda pointless to me. |
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At the Shield match last weekend I saw a couple of sx3's having difficulties, they might have been ammo related but its not the first time I've noticed this happening.
The mossberg 930 is a good choice for the budget conscious. Mike45 makes a good point about the Saiga & the fact that open is under subscribed at the moment in UK ipsc matches but for now in the four4islands series at least, they are scored alongside everyone else, so a box mag may help you get further up that score sheet. 4I |
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My SX3 can go 2000 rounds not cleaned shooting high quality ammunition from the likes of Lyalvale which is very clean burning.
Using a 70mm min cartridge length cartridge is a requirement as most SX3 are 3.5" chambers. If you want publicity stunt jams in an SX3, shoot shit 67mm cartridges or Kent velocity & frustration will surely find you. Several of us who shoot at Harlow are using SX3 & Lyalvale Express or English sporter. No jams, just reliability. You just cant go wrong with an M2 or SX3. You just have to try both & see how the handling fits you. |
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Mike45 makes a good point about the Saiga & the fact that open is under subscribed at the moment in UK ipsc matches but for now in the four4islands series at least, they are scored alongside everyone else, so a box mag may help you get further up that score sheet.
Neil, I wasnt aware 4i were scoring them the same, no big deal at the end of the day as it will not impact the top 10. But it is fair to point out to people who think of buying one, in the matches that add to the 4i ratings they do recognise Open and Standard, so you will get put into Open, its just 4i scoring that doesnt. |
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I always clean my gun before a match - its a good habit to get into! Look after your equipment, and it'll look after you!
My SX3 was one of the first into the country, and the FIRST on the PSG circuit. I've shot tens of thousands of rounds, and I can count the number of jams i've had on 1 hand! Yes they don't like short cartridges, but stick to 70mm and it'll work flawlessly. Personally i shoot Express Special Game (32gm 6's), but the gun works just as well with lighter cartridges! They are a high quality, precision made gun, unlike Saiga's, which always seem a bit rough, and agricultural to me, and Wini's recoil less than Benelli's. And to demonstrate the SX3, a bit of video of my blasting off a few rounds after the last match! Link |
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Ok, just browsing Guntrader here at lunch I see different types of SX3first there is the SX3, 8 shot Then there is the SX3 Flanigun Then the SX3, Red Performance Prices between them are between £890 & £995 What's the differences? Forget the 8 shot - More trouble than it's worth, as you'll struggle to extend it, and 8 shots just isn't enough. I've never heard of the Red Performance... It just looks to me like a Flanigun that has been misnamed. IMO, the one to go for is an SX3 Composite, 3.5" Magnum, Section 1, 5 shot, and then you just screw on which ever nordic tube you want (anything from +2 to +8), or get a Flanigun 5-shot if you like the look of the red receiver. |
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Ok, just browsing Guntrader here at lunch I see different types of SX3first there is the SX3, 8 shot Then there is the SX3 Flanigun Then the SX3, Red Performance Prices between them are between £890 & £995 What's the differences? Forget the 8 shot - More trouble than it's worth, as you'll struggle to extend it, and 8 shots just isn't enough. I've never heard of the Red Performance... It just looks to me like a Flanigun that has been misnamed. IMO, the one to go for is an SX3 Composite, 3.5" Magnum, Section 1, 5 shot, and then you just screw on which ever nordic tube you want (anything from +2 to +8), or get a Flanigun 5-shot if you like the look of the red receiver. Not really taken with the redness. What's the difference between them otherwise and why does the Flanigun command the premium? How much are Composites normally? |
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I can't say I'm a big fan of the red receiver either.
There are a few differences - The Flanigun is only done in 3" Magnum, whereas Composites are done in 3" or 3.5" (Mine's a 3.5" Magnum, although I doubt I'm ever going to shoot 3.5" cartridges, it is a negative point to the Flanigun). But on the plus side you get 2 gas pistons (1 light, and 1 heavy), extended chokes, and high-vis sight with the Flanigun, compared to 1 piston, normal chokes, and a standard bead on the normal composites. They have a more premium price, as they're meant to be a special edition gun, however they do justify it with what you get extra (But I don't think you can go wrong with the normal one!) £900 ish seems to be about the right price for a 3.5" Magnum Composite these days... The 3" Magnums are slightly cheaper, but i think you're better off with a 3.5". |
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Quoted:but i think you're better off with a 3.5".
When I became interested in a self-loading shotgun for use on clays, I was repeatedly told to purchase one with a chamber closest in size to the type of cartridge used. There is a good article about chamber length here. Isn't most PSG done with 2.3/4" cartridges anyway? |
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Quoted:but i think you're better off with a 3.5".
When I became interested in a self-loading shotgun for use on clays, I was repeatedly told to purchase one with a chamber closest in size to the type of cartridge used. There is a good article about chamber length here. Isn't most PSG done with 2.3/4" cartridges anyway? Yes, for PSG i only ever shoot 2 3/4" cartridges, but we also shoot a lot of heavier loads, such as Buckshot, and Slug. The 3.5" Magnum comes with the heavier gas piston, which is more suited to heavy loads (but will still shoot lighter cartridges fine), so that is why i think it's the best one to go for. And it's always nice to have the option to shoot some big cartridges if the mood ever takes you. That article is more for clay shooting, where pattern if much more important at range. This isn't the case as much for PSG. |
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But it is fair to point out to people who think of buying one, in the matches that add to the 4i ratings they do recognise Open and Standard, so you will get put into Open, its just 4i scoring that doesnt.
Yes your right, clubs tend to score their matches with standard & open separated but they also produce an all together result which f4i are then using for the overall series result table. |
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I've never heard of the Red Performance... It just looks to me like a Flanigun that has been misnamed. As Patrick Flanigan no longer works for Winchester, I suppose they had to rename the model Quoted: What's the difference between them otherwise and why does the Flanigun command the premium? Winchester say that the Flanigun is just another SX3, but I've read more than one review that says the Flanigun shoots & handles smoother |
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I've never heard of the Red Performance... It just looks to me like a Flanigun that has been misnamed. As Patrick Flanigan no longer works for Winchester, I suppose they had to rename the model Quoted: What's the difference between them otherwise and why does the Flanigun command the premium? Winchester say that the Flanigun is just another SX3, but I've read more than one review that says the Flanigun shoots & handles smoother Shot both versions. No difference imho. All the red reciever models were 28 or 30" barrel in 3" which were too long for me. All the composite 3.5" could be had with 26" barrel which handled far better for me personally. Some of the Flaniguns have been chopped to 24" & teagued etc = nice handling & perfect for Std Auto. An oddball is the S1 out of the box SX3 with a 28" barrel & 7+1 capacity but you can squeeze 8 x 70mm cartridges in, just making std auto. The mag extension has a silly oversleeve & the mag tube itself is the long fixed type sweated into the reciever making increase in capacity difficult. Maybe a better gun for pest control but not ideal for PSG imho. Better to buy an S2 3.5" composite as previously advised by Jim , pull the restrictor & screw an appropriate Nordic or similar tube on & get it entered as S1 on the ticket. |
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I've never heard of the Red Performance... It just looks to me like a Flanigun that has been misnamed. As Patrick Flanigan no longer works for Winchester, I suppose they had to rename the model Quoted: What's the difference between them otherwise and why does the Flanigun command the premium? Winchester say that the Flanigun is just another SX3, but I've read more than one review that says the Flanigun shoots & handles smoother Shot both versions. No difference imho. All the red reciever models were 28 or 30" barrel in 3" which were too long for me. All the composite 3.5" could be had with 26" barrel which handled far better for me personally. Some of the Flaniguns have been chopped to 24" & teagued etc = nice handling & perfect for Std Auto. An oddball is the S1 out of the box SX3 with a 28" barrel & 7+1 capacity but you can squeeze 8 x 70mm cartridges in, just making std auto. The mag extension has a silly oversleeve & the mag tube itself is the long fixed type sweated into the reciever making increase in capacity difficult. Maybe a better gun for pest control but not ideal for PSG imho. Better to buy an S2 3.5" composite as previously advised by Jim , pull the restrictor & screw an appropriate Nordic or similar tube on & get it entered as S1 on the ticket. ...though the latter conversion work should ONLY be carried out by an RFD |
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I've never heard of the Red Performance... It just looks to me like a Flanigun that has been misnamed. As Patrick Flanigan no longer works for Winchester, I suppose they had to rename the model Quoted: What's the difference between them otherwise and why does the Flanigun command the premium? Winchester say that the Flanigun is just another SX3, but I've read more than one review that says the Flanigun shoots & handles smoother Shot both versions. No difference imho. All the red reciever models were 28 or 30" barrel in 3" which were too long for me. All the composite 3.5" could be had with 26" barrel which handled far better for me personally. Some of the Flaniguns have been chopped to 24" & teagued etc = nice handling & perfect for Std Auto. An oddball is the S1 out of the box SX3 with a 28" barrel & 7+1 capacity but you can squeeze 8 x 70mm cartridges in, just making std auto. The mag extension has a silly oversleeve & the mag tube itself is the long fixed type sweated into the reciever making increase in capacity difficult. Maybe a better gun for pest control but not ideal for PSG imho. Better to buy an S2 3.5" composite as previously advised by Jim , pull the restrictor & screw an appropriate Nordic or similar tube on & get it entered as S1 on the ticket. ...though the latter conversion work should ONLY be carried out by an RFD If the S2 shotgun in question is entered as S1 on an available authority by RFD as its final intent as plus 3 rds capacity, you can do what you like to it afterward. I enquired & met no resistance to this method when my M2 went to S1 & I did the conversion work. |
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Better to buy an S2 3.5" composite as previously advised by Jim , pull the restrictor & screw an appropriate Nordic or similar tube on & get it entered as S1 on the ticket. ...though the latter conversion work should ONLY be carried out by an RFD If the S2 shotgun in question is entered as S1 on an available authority by RFD as its final intent as plus 3 rds capacity, you can do what you like to it afterward. I enquired & met no resistance to this method when my M2 went to S1 & I did the conversion work. If you have a S2, and an empty slot for a S1 - why can't you do the work yourself, enter it onto your FAC, and then just inform the police that you've now got a S1 shotgun? |
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Quoted: Is a dealer allowed to enter a S2 on a FAC?Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I've never heard of the Red Performance... It just looks to me like a Flanigun that has been misnamed. As Patrick Flanigan no longer works for Winchester, I suppose they had to rename the model Quoted: What's the difference between them otherwise and why does the Flanigun command the premium? Winchester say that the Flanigun is just another SX3, but I've read more than one review that says the Flanigun shoots & handles smoother Shot both versions. No difference imho. All the red reciever models were 28 or 30" barrel in 3" which were too long for me. All the composite 3.5" could be had with 26" barrel which handled far better for me personally. Some of the Flaniguns have been chopped to 24" & teagued etc = nice handling & perfect for Std Auto. An oddball is the S1 out of the box SX3 with a 28" barrel & 7+1 capacity but you can squeeze 8 x 70mm cartridges in, just making std auto. The mag extension has a silly oversleeve & the mag tube itself is the long fixed type sweated into the reciever making increase in capacity difficult. Maybe a better gun for pest control but not ideal for PSG imho. Better to buy an S2 3.5" composite as previously advised by Jim , pull the restrictor & screw an appropriate Nordic or similar tube on & get it entered as S1 on the ticket. ...though the latter conversion work should ONLY be carried out by an RFD If the S2 shotgun in question is entered as S1 on an available authority by RFD as its final intent as plus 3 rds capacity, you can do what you like to it afterward. I enquired & met no resistance to this method when my M2 went to S1 & I did the conversion work. Something tells me that's not right. As an aside to all this, I've just fitted a Firepoint to my Benelli, so this has me thinking. Would this put it in open class? Not too concerned about Dalek rules, but what about the Hoseasons series?? Reason I ask (and consider this), USPSA (the Yankees one) and IMA/SMM3G etc, have introduced a new rule that non-magnifying red dots are now permitted in Limited rifle class alongside irons in their US multigun matches. A fella in the US also told me that there are truly only one or maybe two true IPSC practical matches held in the entire US in any given year, the rest of the time they run to their own rules (which are similar). Makes a lot of sense to me, doing their own thing and having fun along the way. Also, after watching Sittunga's Saiga link earlier in this thread, have there ever been any PSG matches over here that have incorporated a clay launcher like the ones in the vid? |
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Is a dealer allowed to enter a S2 on a FAC?
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I've never heard of the Red Performance... It just looks to me like a Flanigun that has been misnamed. As Patrick Flanigan no longer works for Winchester, I suppose they had to rename the model Quoted: What's the difference between them otherwise and why does the Flanigun command the premium? Winchester say that the Flanigun is just another SX3, but I've read more than one review that says the Flanigun shoots & handles smoother Shot both versions. No difference imho. All the red reciever models were 28 or 30" barrel in 3" which were too long for me. All the composite 3.5" could be had with 26" barrel which handled far better for me personally. Some of the Flaniguns have been chopped to 24" & teagued etc = nice handling & perfect for Std Auto. An oddball is the S1 out of the box SX3 with a 28" barrel & 7+1 capacity but you can squeeze 8 x 70mm cartridges in, just making std auto. The mag extension has a silly oversleeve & the mag tube itself is the long fixed type sweated into the reciever making increase in capacity difficult. Maybe a better gun for pest control but not ideal for PSG imho. Better to buy an S2 3.5" composite as previously advised by Jim , pull the restrictor & screw an appropriate Nordic or similar tube on & get it entered as S1 on the ticket. ...though the latter conversion work should ONLY be carried out by an RFD If the S2 shotgun in question is entered as S1 on an available authority by RFD as its final intent as plus 3 rds capacity, you can do what you like to it afterward. I enquired & met no resistance to this method when my M2 went to S1 & I did the conversion work. Something tells me that's not right. As an aside to all this, I've just fitted a Firepoint to my Benelli, so this has me thinking. Would this put it in open class? Not too concerned about Dalek rules, but what about the Hoseasons series?? Reason I ask (and consider this), USPSA (the Yankees one) and IMA/SMM3G etc, have introduced a new rule that non-magnifying red dots are now permitted in Limited rifle class alongside irons in their US multigun matches. A fella in the US also told me that there are truly only one or maybe two true IPSC practical matches held in the entire US in any given year, the rest of the time they run to their own rules (which are similar). Makes a lot of sense to me, doing their own thing and having fun along the way. Also, after watching Sittunga's Saiga link earlier in this thread, have there ever been any PSG matches over here that have incorporated a clay launcher like the ones in the vid? A S2 shotgun CANNOT be entered onto an FAC, as it isn't a firearm. It can only be entered onto a Shotgun Cert. I believe there has been a test case in the past about this... If you want to buy it as a S2, put it onto an SGC, and then get an RFD to convert it, and transfer it onto your FAC. Otherwise buy it, get it converted, and then put it straight on an FAC. As Darren's mentioned - avoid the 7+1. I'm pretty sure you can buy them as a Standard 5 Shot (none restricted) FAC Shotgun - Thats the way to go, or if you can't find one, buy a S2 gun and get it converted. And i've never noticed a difference between the Flanigun and standard SX3. Mine is chopped to 24", and Teagued. Mix that with a Nordic +4 Tube, and you have the perfect Standard Shotgun. P.S. Dots on shotguns are Ghey  - And definitely Open for UKPSA
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Quoted: F4i matches will allow you a red dot as most of our matches its all shotguns 9 rounds loaded start & no divisions  Getting ready for the 2 Gun Islands match ? http://four4islands.org Good, Now will someone please answer the other question? Honestly it's like getting blood out of a stone  |
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F4i matches will allow you a red dot as most of our matches its all shotguns 9 rounds loaded start & no divisions
Getting ready for the 2 Gun Islands match ? http://four4islands.org Good, Now will someone please answer the other question? Honestly it's like getting blood out of a stone
Yes! We quite often have poppers that flick clays up at Harlow.... |
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P.S. Dots on shotguns are Ghey - And definitely Open for UKPSAOf course they are................ - What is this UKPSA? Thought it was F4I running all the popular shotgun matches these days
http://i50.tinypic.com/2zf0bco.jpg Soo very gay  You said it
I've yet to go to a Four Islands match... but i plan on attending the Romsey one next month... |
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P.S. Dots on shotguns are Ghey - And definitely Open for UKPSAOf course they are................ - What is this UKPSA? Thought it was F4I running all the popular shotgun matches these days
http://i50.tinypic.com/2zf0bco.jpg Soo very gay You said it
I've yet to go to a Four Islands match... but i plan on attending the Romsey one next month... Well at least you can talk about it on this forum, is that why your are back on here......? Nice to see you by the way
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: P.S. Dots on shotguns are Ghey - And definitely Open for UKPSAOf course they are................ - What is this UKPSA? Thought it was F4I running all the popular shotgun matches these days http://i50.tinypic.com/2zf0bco.jpg Soo very gay You said it I've yet to go to a Four Islands match... but i plan on attending the Romsey one next month... Well at least you can talk about it on this forum, is that why your are back on here......? Nice to see you by the way Because we're all just one big happy family 
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P.S. Dots on shotguns are Ghey - And definitely Open for UKPSAOf course they are................ - What is this UKPSA? Thought it was F4I running all the popular shotgun matches these days
http://i50.tinypic.com/2zf0bco.jpg Soo very gay You said it
I've yet to go to a Four Islands match... but i plan on attending the Romsey one next month... Well at least you can talk about it on this forum, is that why your are back on here......? Nice to see you by the way Cheers. Well I got a bit bored of coming on here, but not any more... And i've got plenty of time on my hands at the moment. |
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F4i matches will allow you a red dot as most of our matches its all shotguns 9 rounds loaded start & no divisions
Well, thats not quite right is it Dave ? Four islands dont per se put on any of their own PSG matches, they simply compile the results from certain club matches into one table, but they are putting on their own match which is the 2 gun match in Sept. ALL the club matches that four islands take their results from recognise two divisions, Open and Standard, so a red dot will put you into Open if you shoot one of those club matches. Shield and Romsey recognise divisions, and they are all of the series of matches that add to the results so I dont know why you is saying it isnt so ?? The fact of it is that none of 4ilands series matches allow a red dot in Standard. |
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P.S. Dots on shotguns are Ghey - And definitely Open for UKPSAOf course they are................ - What is this UKPSA? Thought it was F4I running all the popular shotgun matches these days
http://i50.tinypic.com/2zf0bco.jpg Soo very gay You said it
I've yet to go to a Four Islands match... but i plan on attending the Romsey one next month... Well at least you can talk about it on this forum, is that why your are back on here......? Nice to see you by the way Cheers. Well I got a bit bored of coming on here, but not any more... And i've got plenty of time on my hands at the moment. So are you all finished now, a proper job engineer? |
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F4i matches will allow you a red dot as most of our matches its all shotguns 9 rounds loaded start & no divisions
Well, that's not quite right is it Dave ? Four islands don't per se put on any of their own PSG matches, they simply compile the results from certain club matches into one table, but they are putting on their own match which is the 2 gun match in Sept. ALL the club matches that four islands take their results from recognise two divisions, Open and Standard, so a red dot will put you into Open if you shoot one of those club matches. Shield and Romsey recognise divisions, and they are all of the series of matches that add to the results so I dont know why you is saying it isnt so ?? The fact of it is that none of 4ilands series matches allow a red dot in Standard. Mike To set the record straight, F4i do not make demands of its partner clubs & are happy to support them in providing a fun match that is in line with their own vision of PSG, also what f4i currently does is not necessarily everything it will ever do, it is a growing & evolving organisation, that is open to all new ideas & match formats suggested to it. The Individual f4i clubs will recognise whatever divisions for prizes they see fit, F4i make no demands & its possible to win a division & get a prize providing the hosting club recognizes it. What is important is that for the overall F4i series all guns are scored together, & so there are no divisions in the series as such only individual club recognition & so Dave is correct in effect. So whats not to love ? 4I Mark To answer your second question the answer is yes, the Welsh Championship has had flying clays launched from a standard trap that was activated activated by a falling popper on several occasions. |
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F4i matches will allow you a red dot as most of our matches its all shotguns 9 rounds loaded start & no divisions
Well, thats not quite right is it Dave ? Four islands dont per se put on any of their own PSG matches, they simply compile the results from certain club matches into one table, but they are putting on their own match which is the 2 gun match in Sept. ALL the club matches that four islands take their results from recognise two divisions, Open and Standard, so a red dot will put you into Open if you shoot one of those club matches. Shield and Romsey recognise divisions, and they are all of the series of matches that add to the results so I dont know why you is saying it isnt so ?? The fact of it is that none of 4ilands series matches allow a red dot in Standard. Mike To set the record straight, F4i do not make demands of its partner clubs & are happy to support them in providing a fun match that is in line with their own vision of PSG, also what f4i currently does is not neccesarily everything it will ever do, it is a growing & evolving organisation, that is open to all new ideas & match formats suggested to it. The Individual f4i clubs will recognise whatever divisions for prizes they see fit, F4i make no demands & its possible to win a division & get a prize providing the hosting club recognizes it. What is important is that for the overall F4i series all guns are scored together, & so there are no divisions in the series as such only individual club recognition & so Dave is correct in effect. So whats not to love ? 4I So will you follow the USPSA and IMA's lead and allow non magnifying red dots in Limited alongside irons, or do you still have hangovers from your Dalek days?
ETA: I have copies of their current multigun rules if anyone wants them |
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So will you follow the USPSA and IMA's lead and allow non magnifying red dots in Limited alongside irons, or do you still have hangovers from your Dalek days?
ETA: I have copies of their current multigun rules if anyone wants them[/quote] Mark Don't get hung up on divisions, just shoot whatever you bring, at the end of the day everyone will be in an all together division under f4i, what it will show eventually is that there are far more important things that will effect your score than simply having a red dot on your gun or not, like loading & speed shooting skills, a red dot may help you on a rifle at close range, but on a shotgun they may actually slow you down compared to a simple rib & bead combination however some shooters find they help as their eyesight deteriorates with age & so they can help in that case.
F4i recognise that guns are as individual as the people who build them & so will not dictate what you can & cannot have, turn up, shoot, have fun & get an all together score to compare against your friends, our partner clubs may also wish to give out prizes & recognise other divisions, that is their choice & we encourage them to do that if they so wish. 4I |
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I don't get into the argument of UKPSA or not...
The point I want to make is why do you want a dot on a shotgun? (You might want it for long range slug but I have a flip up rear sight for that) For most PSG shooting, a dot will only slow you down! You can't acquire the dot and targets anywhere near as quickly as just looking down a rib... And for most fast shots I can honestly say it's more about the natural pointability of the gun, and you lose that if you're trying to look for a dot! You just can't beat a bead for PSG... only I only really look at that for long shots! |
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Don't get hung up on divisions, just shoot whatever you bring, at the end of the day everyone will be in an all together division under f4i, what it will show eventually is that there are far more important things that will effect your score than simply having a red dot on your gun or not, like loading & speed shooting skills, a red dot may help you on a rifle at close range, but on a shotgun they may actually slow you down compared to a simple rib & bead combination however some shooters find they help as their eyesight deteriorates with age & so they can help in that case.e other divisions, that is their choice & we encourage them to do that if they so wish.
4I Yeah, I've never asked for any exceptions, but you have to realise (and I've never hidden the fact) that I have glaucoma and my right eye is pretty much fucked, which doesn't help much when you're right eye dominant 
The red dot helps...to a point, but I accept that I will never be challenging for top prizes and accept the fact I am just doing this for fun these days. That said, I like the way you are going forward with this and will (in my capacity) support it. |
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Quoted:
I don't get into the argument of UKPSA or not... The point I want to make is why do you want a dot on a shotgun? (You might want it for long range slug but I have a flip up rear sight for that) For most PSG shooting, a dot will only slow you down! You can't acquire the dot and targets anywhere near as quickly as just looking down a rib... And for most fast shots I can honestly say it's more about the natural pointability of the gun, and you lose that if you're trying to look for a dot! You just can't beat a bead for PSG... only I only really look at that for long shots! Which is all well and good until they tell you you only have 10% vision in your dominant eye 
ETA: Don't get me wrong here, I can still shoot well with iron sights, but it is a struggle and I am finding it harder and it also doesn;t help that the optic nerve deterioration has occured in the centre of my right eye |
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I was going to add that loading was never my strong point and still believe there is too much emphasis on this, but accept it's part of the game,,,,
The other thing, referring to the USPSA/IMA rules, that the gun must remain in the same configuration for the match....how therefore can it be legal to change chokes depending on the stage? Especially so given that there really aren't that many "fumble zones"!!! |
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Yeah, I've never asked for any exceptions, but you have to realise (and I've never hidden the fact) that I have glaucoma and my right eye is pretty much fucked, which doesn't help much when you're right eye dominant
The red dot helps...to a point, but I accept that I will never be challenging for top prizes and accept the fact I am just doing this for fun these days. That said, I like the way you are going forward with this and will (in my capacity) support it. Mark I was not fully aware of your ongoing vision problems, Im sorry to hear of your difficulty & I certainly meant no offence by my comments, i was only repeating comments that a few older guys have made to me over the years, a red dot has helped many of them, & I dont see why it should be used as a reason to seperate people into "divisions" if you can shoot better with it then its all good, one score sheet is what most people seem to want to see. F4i is about putting the fun back into psg & so far the clubs & shooters who have tried it agree its working
Thank you for your support, im sure we can all work together for the greater good of all practical shooters going forward. 4I |