Posted: 4/17/2009 10:53:33 AM EDT
I just visited a local gun shop and discussion ensued about how the federal government is going to start "cracking" down on gun shows and specifically on those who rent tables to sell firearms who do not have a business license and who do not have an FFL. I inquired about how often a person can sell items before it is considered a business. Is it once a year, twice a month? His response was it is probably debatable in court. It was then that I felt I realized what he was doing based on his tone and apparent discord. I asked him to the effect, "So does that mean that someone with a business license and an FFL would be able to corner the market at guns shows"? His response was “well why shouldn’t they? The people who rent tables and that you see doing it at all the guns shows are breaking the law.” I asked what law and his response, angrily, was “federal law and state law by operating a business and not having a license”. He then proceeded to state to the effect, "How do you think stolen guns get traded"? "They get sold at guns shows by people that don’t have FFL's!” I was floored. It was after this that he went on to state that he was contacted by the "feds" and asked what he knows about this. It is concerning to me that he might have been the one to bring attention to this trying to gain a market advantage, completely selfishly, in spite of everyone else’s legal rights to sell firearms privately. If all I have to deal with is FFL dealers (with a business license) at a gun show I will completely stop going. Furthermore.......I am completely disappointed in this guy, I always believed he was a leader among us. 
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These are the standards that apply.
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 921 Prev | Next § 921. Definitions (11) The term “dealer” means (A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail, (B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or (C) any person who is a pawnbroker. The term “licensed dealer” means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter. (21) The term “engaged in the business” means— (A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured; (B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured; (C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms; (D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms; (E) as applied to an importer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms imported; and (F) as applied to an importer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition imported. (22) The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal purposes or terrorism. For purposes of this paragraph, the term “terrorism” means activity, directed against United States persons, which— (A) is committed by an individual who is not a national or permanent resident alien of the United States; (B) involves violent acts or acts dangerous to human life which would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States; and (C) is intended— (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping. |
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Yeah, I'd like to know who this was ... it seems he hasn't actually read the law - which has a specific definition of what a "business" is and a specific exemption for someone buying and selling to improve a collection or liquidating a collection.
Sheesh. So, by his definition, all those selling beanie babies and crafts at the gun show should also be eliminated, unless they hold a business license? Anyone holding a garage sale needs to apply for a business license? Yeah, I think sometimes we are our own worst enemy. Thanks Phil for the legal info |
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Sounds like he's bitter @ the Feds for making his business do more work than private citizens, and he's right: FFLs shouldn't need licenses. The BATF is just another income source to feed the growing government. Unfortunately, he feels helpless against the feds (like all of us) so he wants others to have to go through the shit he has to.
Yeah..share the misery around and ignore the source of the problem. Fucking socialist. 
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Quoted: What gun store was it?I just visited a local gun shop and discussion ensued about how the federal government is going to start "cracking" down on gun shows and specifically on those who rent tables to sell firearms who do not have a business license and who do not have an FFL. I inquired about how often a person can sell items before it is considered a business. Is it once a year, twice a month? His response was it is probably debatable in court. It was then that I felt I realized what he was doing based on his tone and apparent discord. I asked him to the effect, "So does that mean that someone with a business license and an FFL would be able to corner the market at guns shows"? His response was “well why shouldn’t they? The people who rent tables and that you see doing it at all the guns shows are breaking the law.” I asked what law and his response, angrily, was “federal law and state law by operating a business and not having a license”. He then proceeded to state to the effect, "How do you think stolen guns get traded"? "They get sold at guns shows by people that don’t have FFL's!” I was floored. It was after this that he went on to state that he was contacted by the "feds" and asked what he knows about this. It is concerning to me that he might have been the one to bring attention to this trying to gain a market advantage, completely selfishly, in spite of everyone else’s legal rights to sell firearms privately. If all I have to deal with is FFL dealers (with a business license) at a gun show I will completely stop going. Furthermore.......I am completely disappointed in this guy, I always believed he was a leader among us. |
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What gun store was it?
I just visited a local gun shop and discussion ensued about how the federal government is going to start "cracking" down on gun shows and specifically on those who rent tables to sell firearms who do not have a business license and who do not have an FFL. I inquired about how often a person can sell items before it is considered a business. Is it once a year, twice a month? His response was it is probably debatable in court. It was then that I felt I realized what he was doing based on his tone and apparent discord. I asked him to the effect, "So does that mean that someone with a business license and an FFL would be able to corner the market at guns shows"? His response was “well why shouldn’t they? The people who rent tables and that you see doing it at all the guns shows are breaking the law.” I asked what law and his response, angrily, was “federal law and state law by operating a business and not having a license”. He then proceeded to state to the effect, "How do you think stolen guns get traded"? "They get sold at guns shows by people that don’t have FFL's!” I was floored. It was after this that he went on to state that he was contacted by the "feds" and asked what he knows about this. It is concerning to me that he might have been the one to bring attention to this trying to gain a market advantage, completely selfishly, in spite of everyone else’s legal rights to sell firearms privately. If all I have to deal with is FFL dealers (with a business license) at a gun show I will completely stop going. Furthermore.......I am completely disappointed in this guy, I always believed he was a leader among us. I don't want to cause him more problems than he already has but he's the only one of the three that you see at any of the local gun shows. |
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Quoted: Well then how am I supposed to not to buy from him anymore then?Quoted: Quoted: What gun store was it?I just visited a local gun shop and discussion ensued about how the federal government is going to start "cracking" down on gun shows and specifically on those who rent tables to sell firearms who do not have a business license and who do not have an FFL. I inquired about how often a person can sell items before it is considered a business. Is it once a year, twice a month? His response was it is probably debatable in court. It was then that I felt I realized what he was doing based on his tone and apparent discord. I asked him to the effect, "So does that mean that someone with a business license and an FFL would be able to corner the market at guns shows"? His response was “well why shouldn’t they? The people who rent tables and that you see doing it at all the guns shows are breaking the law.” I asked what law and his response, angrily, was “federal law and state law by operating a business and not having a license”. He then proceeded to state to the effect, "How do you think stolen guns get traded"? "They get sold at guns shows by people that don’t have FFL's!” I was floored. It was after this that he went on to state that he was contacted by the "feds" and asked what he knows about this. It is concerning to me that he might have been the one to bring attention to this trying to gain a market advantage, completely selfishly, in spite of everyone else’s legal rights to sell firearms privately. If all I have to deal with is FFL dealers (with a business license) at a gun show I will completely stop going. Furthermore.......I am completely disappointed in this guy, I always believed he was a leader among us. I don't want to cause him more problems than he already has but he's the only one of the three that you see at any of the local gun shows. I'm all for supporting the local economy before anything online, but at the same time I don't like supporting retards... Also it helps credibility if we know who it is. If you don't say then it might just be a big fat lie. |
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Well then how am I supposed to not to buy from him anymore then?
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What gun store was it?
I just visited a local gun shop and discussion ensued about how the federal government is going to start "cracking" down on gun shows and specifically on those who rent tables to sell firearms who do not have a business license and who do not have an FFL. I inquired about how often a person can sell items before it is considered a business. Is it once a year, twice a month? His response was it is probably debatable in court. It was then that I felt I realized what he was doing based on his tone and apparent discord. I asked him to the effect, "So does that mean that someone with a business license and an FFL would be able to corner the market at guns shows"? His response was “well why shouldn’t they? The people who rent tables and that you see doing it at all the guns shows are breaking the law.” I asked what law and his response, angrily, was “federal law and state law by operating a business and not having a license”. He then proceeded to state to the effect, "How do you think stolen guns get traded"? "They get sold at guns shows by people that don’t have FFL's!” I was floored. It was after this that he went on to state that he was contacted by the "feds" and asked what he knows about this. It is concerning to me that he might have been the one to bring attention to this trying to gain a market advantage, completely selfishly, in spite of everyone else’s legal rights to sell firearms privately. If all I have to deal with is FFL dealers (with a business license) at a gun show I will completely stop going. Furthermore.......I am completely disappointed in this guy, I always believed he was a leader among us. I don't want to cause him more problems than he already has but he's the only one of the three that you see at any of the local gun shows. I'm all for supporting the local economy before anything online, but at the same time I don't like supporting retards... Also it helps credibility if we know who it is. If you don't say then it might just be a big fat lie. I get your point and see your tactic....you and I have probably met as I,and I would bet you, go to every gun show.....it is the truth...take it or leave it. |
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I don't want to cause him more problems than he already has but he's the only one of the three that you see at any of the local gun shows. Which gun show? Why would you want to protect a dick like that? People that wouldn't otherwise give him their money may still support this guy since you are protecting him. 
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Quoted: only 1 of the 3 at the show?......there are many more FFL holders than 3 at the shows, I am sure its not LEED as Doug is out of town....and is fine with anyone legaly making a profit I'm starting to think someone's just doing this to start shit in the HTF... maybe time for another firemission to the pit  |
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only 1 of the 3 at the show?......there are many more FFL holders than 3 at the shows, I am sure its not LEED as Doug is out of town....and is fine with anyone legaly making a profit I'm starting to think someone's just doing this to start shit in the HTF... maybe time for another firemission to the pit
I'm not a member...but if you want to go to the pit!!!! 
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What gun store was it?
I just visited a local gun shop and discussion ensued about how the federal government is going to start "cracking" down on gun shows and specifically on those who rent tables to sell firearms who do not have a business license and who do not have an FFL. I inquired about how often a person can sell items before it is considered a business. Is it once a year, twice a month? His response was it is probably debatable in court. It was then that I felt I realized what he was doing based on his tone and apparent discord. I asked him to the effect, "So does that mean that someone with a business license and an FFL would be able to corner the market at guns shows"? His response was “well why shouldn’t they? The people who rent tables and that you see doing it at all the guns shows are breaking the law.” I asked what law and his response, angrily, was “federal law and state law by operating a business and not having a license”. He then proceeded to state to the effect, "How do you think stolen guns get traded"? "They get sold at guns shows by people that don’t have FFL's!” I was floored. It was after this that he went on to state that he was contacted by the "feds" and asked what he knows about this. It is concerning to me that he might have been the one to bring attention to this trying to gain a market advantage, completely selfishly, in spite of everyone else’s legal rights to sell firearms privately. If all I have to deal with is FFL dealers (with a business license) at a gun show I will completely stop going. Furthermore.......I am completely disappointed in this guy, I always believed he was a leader among us. I don't want to cause him more problems than he already has With that kind of attitude, we don't want to support him with our money. but he's the only one of the three that you see at any of the local gun shows.
Only show I go to is the Puyallup WAC show, and there are generally more than three FFLs there. |
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I just visited a local gun shop and discussion ensued about how the federal government is going to start "cracking" down on gun shows and specifically on those who rent tables to sell firearms who do not have a business license and who do not have an FFL. I inquired about how often a person can sell items before it is considered a business. Is it once a year, twice a month? His response was it is probably debatable in court. It was then that I felt I realized what he was doing based on his tone and apparent discord. I asked him to the effect, "So does that mean that someone with a business license and an FFL would be able to corner the market at guns shows"? His response was “well why shouldn’t they? The people who rent tables and that you see doing it at all the guns shows are breaking the law.” I asked what law and his response, angrily, was “federal law and state law by operating a business and not having a license”. He then proceeded to state to the effect, "How do you think stolen guns get traded"? "They get sold at guns shows by people that don’t have FFL's!” I was floored. It was after this that he went on to state that he was contacted by the "feds" and asked what he knows about this. It is concerning to me that he might have been the one to bring attention to this trying to gain a market advantage, completely selfishly, in spite of everyone else’s legal rights to sell firearms privately. If all I have to deal with is FFL dealers (with a business license) at a gun show I will completely stop going. Furthermore.......I am completely disappointed in this guy, I always believed he was a leader among us. Don't be a pussy. Name him. 
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| cough up the name . One of the best things about wahtf is knowing what companies are worth spending your money at. An anti gun rights gun store needs too be put out of work ,especially if they frequent gun shows with their own booth and bad mouth the essence of a gun show at the same time . If they made a statement like that then they are the ones needing an invite too the pit |
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This statement is wrong. I'll STFU now since I don't have the necessary fedgod approval, acording to some, to have an opinion on this subject. EVERY, let me repeat EVERY stolen gun that came through my books had gone through a gun show at some point. How many stolen guns have you had in your possession that did not? Did I mention every? |
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Is it your belief that only a FFL holder should be able to rent a table at a gun show? No, not at all. Do I believe most non-licensed "dealers" operating at gun shows are in violation of the laws as they are written now? Yes Pardon the Overquoting™, but how so? Serious inquiry. |
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Pardon the Overquoting™, but how so? Serious inquiry. Occasionally an individual or a couple of guys will rent a table to b/s/t firearms but, more are guys that are there every show and make the show circuit. I had several "dealers" table holders that bought every week from me some timing it as to one handgun a week to avoid the "multiple handgun purchase" paperwork, others could care less and would buy and fill it out. At the time most would tell me they would easily make $50 per handgun selling them sans paperwork. I wasn't making $50 selling to them at times. 
These guys had a regular trap line that they would run during the week hitting all the gun and pawnshops buying to take to the shows on weekends. I had standing weekly orders with a few. All or most of the above mentioned either were visited by BATFE on one or numerous occasions, some ended up getting FFL's, others just gave up...for a while. 
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EVERY, let me repeat EVERY stolen gun that came through my books had gone through a gun show at some point. How many stolen guns have you had in your possession that did not? Did I mention every? How do you establish that? And how big is/was your sample? |
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this is kind of a question for 1GR also open for general discussion. A guy buys a gun at a show as a member or a table holder how does he then determine if it is stolen or legit ? or is there an instant quick check method too check before buying? You could call the PD some will run them some will not.
As an FFL/Pawnbroker all firearm intakes go through the local PD. |