Posted: 10/20/2006 6:33:11 AM EDT
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Other then Defensive Edge & Bills; are there any other training providers in the metro that offer tactical classes? How about alternative defense methods, like knife, baton, that sort of thing? nguyen 
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There are all kinds of people out there training people, most are private firms that just suck the money from people. There are at least 3 flyers in the entrance of the Frontiersman offering up training. But, I do not think that anyone but Defensive Edge and BGS has the wide variety of classes? Classes Go look there for classes, but none of these people have anything of real value to offer up except seperating you from your money! Hell most are Johnny Come Lately types just trying line their pockets with your money! |
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Seems like this guy DonL and phorvick are teaching some basic tactical/carry classes, but nothing like what's not being offerred at Bill's or with Sully. I'd be interested to know each of their qualifications. ETA: Just saw some of the pics posted up on shootingsafely.com/ Paul, Horvick, instructor. Many common mistakes being made on grip, use of cover. Trigger discipline is terrible on many of the pics, and barrel pointed straight at camera lens in one photo  Paul, I hope you read this post so you have a chance to defend yourself or explain why people have their finger on the trigger when not on the target in many of your photos.... 
 Thanks for getting me all riled up this afternoon, RN!!! |
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M, You are welcome, and that is the whole point of my post. These people only exist to seperate people's money from them. They provide what the might pass for the law, but I am assured that these people just want to steal money! Under the guise of education, And what is worse some are disciples of some fellow that arugeably was the most out spoken person on the internet. Who had no credentials of note. Examples of CCW instruction: #1 Spend all day at Perkins then go shoot at BGS #2 Spend all day in BPR classroom then shoot for 50 rds (not a BPR class) #3 Got to out of state entry level program and then return to be Self Defense Expert? #4 Watch supposed instructors violate so many rules of basic gunhandling that is apparent they themselve are freaking worthless at observing and relaying safety is job #1 The list goes on! The best one of late that has come to my attention. A person on another forum, and to prove my point this guy bought glock 19 with 10rd magazines because he thought that 15rd mags would stick out of the gun too much! LOL like that is going to happen. What is worse is this fellow thinks that Good Samaritan Law in MN allows a person to intervene with a weapon! No #*&#! I kid you not, he equates that the GS law intended to get medical help for accident victims from medically trained people at the scene of accident without fear of civil liability allows him the CCW holder to intervene with lethal force! NOW THAT IS FREAKING SCARY! |
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I took a couple lessons from DonL sometime back. He's a nice guy. He invented the GITS target, which is basically a large silhouette Hits on the silhouette at 7 were counted as good. Nothing wrong with this philosophy, though I argue that its not the best approach (aim small miss small). His qualifications, if I recall correctly, were that he has taken a lot of training at GunSite, Blackwater and such (not sure the exact places). Gun handling were not issues with him, all the shooting was done at Burnsville pistol range so no holster work, etc. We did not work much on trigger discipline, but did do basic firearm safety. For what I needed at the time it was decent training. Sort of a mix of fundamentals and basic aiming principles. More than point shooting. This was maybe 3 years ago. His training style may have changes since then. I don’t know Paul H. I have not trained with him. I conversed with him a couple times. I think he is up in the DL area.I have no comments on his firearm handling. I give him and his group lot of credit for the work he has done to advance the MPPA, however. I think they just have a different philosophy on training. Setting a minimum standard and making sure that the organizations that are certified stay within that standard. ETA- I did go look at some of the shootingsafely photos and trigger discipline was really bad. |
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Reality has it that most of the concealed carry instructors are just out to take people's money. CCRN served a purpose, but they have the off shoot AAFCI, and then the splinter groups that are training organizations. But, those people above do a great injustice to relatine relevant info and practical instruction! That is the truth! In all my encounters with gun owners very few actually know that the level of training that is available locally! |
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I think we can all agree that the required class for carry permits is not training. If training is what you're looking for, than training is what you should seek out, not carry classes. Now, I agree that some of those pictures are pretty terrible. I especially like how the guy in the brown striped polo has an AR pointed at the ground not once but twice with his finger on the trigger. But as for grip and use of cover, those are not items that would normally be covered in a carry class. My understanding of the purpose of the carry classes as intended, is that the main focus of the class is full understanding of the laws of the state of Minnesota regarding the use of lethal force. The shooting portion of the class is only designed to show you have basic handgun familiarity. It is not the place to correct grip angle (although finger dicipline should be tested here). As for point shooting, taken out of context it looks bad. But think about a typical defensive shooting. It's going to be close. Probably less than 10 feet, certainly less than 21. Nielsen, I know you were at a couple of Len's classes where we did firing while retreating from the target. The first two shots were fired using a speed rock, the next two shots were point shooting, and not until you'd put some distance between you and the target did the use of sights come into play. The simple fact is that point shooting can be affective at close distances. Ask an IPSC shooter. Hell, I've done a failure drill at 7 yards point shooting (2/body 1/head) using point shooting, and I can almost get under 2 seconds drawing from concealment. Now, I am not advocating point shooting. *IF* you train regularly (and most carry permit holders do not, the people that attend Sully's classes are probably in the upper 1% of permit holders) it's better to learn the proper mechanics of shooting. Use your sights, and at bad breath distances, use proper weapons retention techniques. Reality is, however, that a large percentage of people carrying guns under the permit system shoot less than 3 times per year, let alone train in a serious setting like DE. Back to the original poster, the Bills classes and DE are the only tactical classes I've found around here. But if you're interested in advancing your weapons handling and shooting capabilities, you should look at some of the shooting sports too. My favorites are IDPA and USPSA/IPSC. You will be a better shooter (and safer to boot) if you play those games for a couple of years. If rifle/shotgun are your thing, there are plenty of leagues around for that as well. And most people, even those that shoot regularly, can benefit tremendously from an annual refresher course or two on proper mechanics. I've been shooting handguns for better than 15 years, and after taking Sully's Handgun 1 class this summer, I improved markedly, and I plan on doing that once/year from now forward. |
Quoted for truth, I would agree 100%. I always considered myself proficent with my firearms because I've put rounds down range every other month or so but never had formal training or even someone to critique my stance, grip etc or for that matter even worked out of the holster (burnsville range). Part of it is because I have a limited budget and don't want to throw my money at some "black ops, off paper, super secret mall ninja". My CCW class was through a person not mentioned here (yet) and I feel like it was alright, even good, but focused on legal issues and decsion making more than shooting (as it perhaps should be). I'm looking forward to going to and taking my wife to the "Defensive Alternatives & Scenario Based Training" when DE does it again but in the mean time would be open to suggestions on the next class to take or even someone to give pointers at the range. |
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Training is a tough thing to do! Time/Travel/Costs all hold people back. But, I think Sully done trumped the cost factor this fall with the 50 dollar special. One of the people that people think was responsible for the MPPA does not seem to advocate to any extent regular training. People who have carry permits should bet out practicing, but to me a few times a year is painfully inadequate. Now, you do not have to shoot like a British SAS trooper, Navy SEAL, or Bruce Piatt. Some people advocate USPSA, IPSC, and IDPA. They are great venues for range time, but these are nothing more then games. I am all for range time, never argue that point. But, we have people carrying Kel Tec, Kahrs, and J frame revolvers. These are not used in games, and they need to practiced with. The unfortunate obstacle other then BGS Tactial programs none of the indoor ranges allow for drawing and firing practice. We have people worried about carrying the super duper ammo, that does not matter if the round do not hit vital areas of the human body! Classroom time is great! I could spend all day in class if the material was relevant! But, self defense is gunfighting! That is learned on the range with someone who knows what the hell they are doing! People needs hands on training! |
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Good training can be hard to find. Most trainers are in it for the money. I cannot name a single instructor that teaches for free. This includes Sully, Massad, Tim lau, Ben Salas or any of the others I have trained with. There are many instructors out there that are not current or Ex LE/Mil that can teach you alot. It is sad that there is growing attitude that civilian instructors cannot teach you anything and are simply ripping off their students. There are lots of good NRA instructors out there. I do not think an instructor needs to be an LE/Mil they do however need to competent in the skills they are teaching. Ever go to a class and out shoot the intructor? Does that mean you wasted money? Is the instructor not worthy to teach? Now give me a minute to put on my Nomex. |
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The main concern is that if it were not for the passage of the MPPA, these johnny come lately instructors would not exist! I could care less about the CV of a particular instructor, but and it is a big butt they have to have a good foundation. This is fresh from this fall. I belong to two gun clubs in the metro. I was out with a shooting bud at one out in the west metro. We arrived first. The range rules of the club are that the first one on the line controls the range at which everyone shoots. There is another rule is that there is only gun handling on the range at the firing line, not behind the line. Well, it was obvious that this was the range time of two members who are CCW instructors. One had more patches on his shirt. Patches must equal competence? NOT Well these so called instructors violated club rules, and the rules of basic gun handling more times then I cared for. We finally packed up and left due to unsafe range conditions! All in the intrest of liniing their pockets! It was obvious that the one lad was way to gun happy, and another was acting like it was his first time firing a gun! Yeah we all have to learn sometime, but well if an instructor can not demonstrate proper gun handling then they ought not be teaching! As far as being LEO, exLEO, Military, or just fellow that has a good solid CV with respect to firearms instruction that is just fine with me. But, one of the more vocal instructors did not know the breach from a muzzle of a gun three years ago, and now the guy teaches CCW? Come on! He sure did not know fecal matter from shinola three years ago! Perhaps I have a greater expectation of things, mainly because I am informed gun owner! To each his own, but I for one will always point people to DE and then to BGS. |
If you read the website, the instructor seems to be advocatig point shooting versus shooting from retention. They are worlds apart from each other. I think we all agree that the CCW course material is different than actual training to carry a firearm, but the point is that most CCW courses don't prepare you to carry a firearm. |
I seriously wonder if there have been any stats done on the number of CCW holders that have shot their own hand due to an unsafe draw. Just being in a few handgun classes and seeing other people shoot in a controlled environment begs me to wonder what would happen in an high-stress situation. Its also too bad that some of the CCW classes out there are tought by people that think carry guns is a right. ok... i don't know where i am going with that one. eh 
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Folks...I am not going to defend any picture on my web site, as I do not disagree that some of the photos show, ummm, poor examples of grip, stance, trigger issues as many noted. What you are missing is the context. Many pictures are taken during classes, and often I get a request to have a copy. Generally the pictures are taken and represent stages in their progress, or are "posed" for a purpose. FOr example, the two fellows "pointing" at the camera are from a foreign country where the entire concept of non-military or police having access to a gun of any type is either outright restricted or prohibited. THey wanted to have a photo as was posed to yank the chains of their friends and family back "home". So, they were posted so they could send the link to their friends etc. I can see though that without any context or explanation that they look, not only silly, but reflect poorly on me etc. So, I will thank you for getting me moving on cleaning up that area of the web site. I have the highest regard for the good folks at this forum and for the great job that Defensive Edge does. If I am a devotee of anyone it would be Steve Silverman, and I teach many of the items that he advocates. In any event, thanks for the kick in the butt :) |
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Thanks for the response. To be fair, those of us that have trained extensively are going to be much more critical than someone who has never taken a class or takes one for the first time. My main concern is making sure that those who carry a gun will 1st: do so safely, and 2nd: be able to respond appropriately to a deadly thread in any circumstance. It's one of the reasons I also teach and train weekly. And don't forget: It's cover plus a foot! 
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I really enjoy the training related threads! I just like to be amused! I have to applaud Paul for standing up to the web site snafu's! He and I have exchanged some thoughts on training! One thing that none of the Johnny Come Lately's can do is not deny they are in it for the money! They did not exist before the MPPA was passed, and they sprouted up afterwards. Can not blame a guy for trying ot make a buck, but be real and admit it! |
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Folks, please refer to us as Defensive Edge and not DE. For those that know me know that I have always preached that there is a great responsibility when it comes to defense of yourself and your loved ones. There is a great responsibility in carrying a firearm, and greater responsibility if you ever need to employ one for defensive purposes. IMHO if people are serious about protecting their loved ones and themselves from harm, then they should seek out proper instruction and training, and it should be continious on a regular basis. For anyone who carries a firearm for defensive purposes, they should obtain training in alternatives to the firearm. The firearm is not an answer to every defensive situation that people may encounter, the firearm is the final and last option in the self defense arsenal, as when a firearm is employed it is deadly/lethal force, and not all situations call for deadly/lethal force. People should have other options to choose from like avoidance, the Nike sprint, pepper & chemical sprays, impact tools, electronic incapacitation devices, empty hand defense, etc. Firearms cannot always be readily available and are not always necessary or warranted. Alternatives are always a good thing to have. Knowledge is a wonderful thing for those that obtain it. We have always offered straight forward no-BS training courses. Some of those address firearms, and many of them do not. One of the greatest courses that we offer is our Defense Alternatives, which IMHO is a must for anyone who carries a firearm or anyone who takes the defense of their loved ones and themselves seriously. We are not a fly by night or johnny come lately company. We have been around for a long time, and have always offered high quality training at a price that we try to make affordable for the average person of which this is something we still stand by. In 2003 when other existing training outfits raised their prices overnight due to the MPPA, we in protest reduced ours. Every year we offer at leat 1 class for $50 per attendee. We offer Alumni training sessions, where Alumni can come get 4-8 hours of high quality training, as we support those that take their training and knowledge serious. If people like what we have offered so far, just wait for the new schedule to come out in a few weeks, as we have lots for to offer. What it really comes down to is get quality instruction and training, then keep getting quality instruction and training on a regular and ongoing basis. Train with us or someone else, but get training. CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" Chief Instructor SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com |
