[ARCHIVED THREAD] - USSA? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 3/13/2008 12:56:18 PM EDT
Asked in the Team Forums and got no hits figured I would try the Locals!  Any feed back on USSA in Tulsa? (United States Shooting Academy) |
| From what I am hearing in our circles, real high priced, looking nationally instead of locally. I don't know of anyone from our community that has done anything with them. I emailed them with an inquiry just before they opened and didn't get any response. Every time I have been by there I haven't seen anyone there. I saw something in one of the forums about an open house or something like that but I never heard of it locally. |
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Welcome to the World of Firearms Training. Lots of high speed BSers with Low Drag enthursiasm getting deep into your pocket and giving very little in return. I'm saying even some of the best known instructors are worthless when it comes toteaching anything more than basic principles. Don't fall for high priced BS. Even in my state. |
| they host local club shoots every weekend and are opening up there range for memberships and recently opened up an open range day for 15 dollars, i am taking a class at the end of the month and will report back, danc46 why open your mouth when you know nothing about them stop being a hater |
I know enough as an NRA instructor and past professional educator to tell when more BS gets thrown than educational material. And I do hate arrogant instructors who come out with superior attitudes. "I'm great and you'll never be as good as I am. Worship the ground I walk on and you may learn something." attitude of instruction sucks for the student.  I've heard those guys talk about "mind set and staying in the fight" Mind set comes from physical condition, how damn mean you are, how skilled you are in that area of conflict, and how much pain you can take. Not about how much BS you can throw. I don't like BS being thrown when it comes to firearm instruction or using deadly force. How's that for being a hater? 
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Wow, for somebody who has 13 posts and joined last month, you sure seem to know a lot about Dan and USSA. 
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How do YOU know how great they are? They tell you themselves?  How about you quit flapping your lips long enough to hear what a few experienced people are trying to tell you. Not everybody likes to beat their own drum. A lot of people around here have "seen the elephant" and its easy to laugh at "trainers".What do you expect to learn from a cop or an IDPA or IPSC shooter anyway? Not that I'm running them down or anything. I suppose that would depend on your current level of expertise. Just because you are trying so hard to fit in and get along I award you 
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danc46, I have been interested in taking some classes. I have been thinking about going to USSA because it would be less travel. I did some comparison shopping of the places I know about. Front Sight 4 Day Practical Rifle 4 days - $2000 - 500 rnds Gunsite 223 Carbine 5 days - $1386 - 1200 rnds - 100 pistol rnds USSA Tactical Rifle 3 days - $595 - 1500 rnds - 300 pistol rnds Do you have any suggestions on which training provider to take classes from? |
It's simple. What do you want to accomplish and/or what do you need? List them and be realistic about it. You're not going to be a Rambo.  Instruction from LE military is not necessarily good for a civilian. They are offensive by nature in gun use and the needs for civilian is strictly defensive. Most of these schools charge you lots of money to shoot ammo in a short period of time. They show you a few techniques and make you follow them rigidly. They may not work for you. If they have course objectives listed and the skill level required noted, qne if it fits within your needs, go for it if you know others that have spent money and like what they took. But remember this - some people have never had this type of training before and really impressed with the BS that is thrown that may not apply to them. Therse schools stress learning where a lot is crammed on you with repeated actions in a short period of time. It may stick or it may not. Group instruction in these "shooting schools" is fairly rigid and doesn't leave much lattitude for personal needs i.e. military and law enforcement training. I'm sorry to say a carbine course where they teach a group to assault or defend a structure is not necessary for an individual UNLESS he wants to learn squad tactics. Most are not going to have you hit the ground and fire or retreat to cover then fire, etc which a single shooter with a rifle needs to be practiced in for "defense" of his property, etc. Some times that stress learning is a plus. But not necessarily good for an individual. Presenting different scenarios, discussing them, practicing them in slow mode using different techniques, objectives, etc then stepping up the pace, may be the way to go. If you are interested in a defensive course, have you thought about a shotgun course? I have two pump shotguns in my home, both next to my tinfoil hats, in case I have to aerate a zombie in my home.A rifle is the last thing I'll use in my home. The rifle is in the back seat of my truck.  BTW, I highly recommend Chuck for personal instruction. His full time job is Instruction. Plus he knows individual and squad tactics in a variety of scenarios and is intelligent enough and experienced enough to "accomplish the mission" realistically out lined by a student wanting to achieve some obtainable goal with a firearm. He's smart enough to make good assessments and adjust an instructional curriculum to achieve goals.  But he ain't got much of a personality!
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Its not that so much as its that I have a hard time suffering fools! Then again Dan, coming from you thats the old pot calling the kettle black thingMy running and gunning days are over. As are my days as a steely eyed killer. The old joints just cant stand up to the abuse anymore. I could still get'er done if I had to though The only formalized instruction (outside of work) that I ever plan on doing anymore is an occasional SDA class, or maybe basic pistol or rifle marksmanship. Right now I have 3 or 4 guys bothering me to pitch an SDA class, but I haven't given in yet I'm kinda torn on the whole "tactical" instruction for civilian business. I mean I agree that you should be able to spend your money on whatever you want but what use do you have for the same skills that we learned in the Army? Are you, as a civvy, really gonna be kicking in doors and clearing rooms? Do you need to know how to patrol? While I can teach all that and more, do you forsee a use for it? Don't get me wrong, if my living was dependent on it (as in the case of the places listed above) I could probably convince you that you needed it Maybe if I didn't have those skills already, I'd see things differently. Go ahead and stimulate the economy! |
Are you looking for competition instruction or self defense models? These people are law enforcement instructors and NOT necessarily suited for civilian instruction. CLEET is too rigid and unyielding in their curriculum. My instructors status in the NRA ain't necessarily got shit to do with my assessment of them. It's their methdology, their lack of listing what they hope to achieve with students, failure to list objectives and goals, etc. They are too arrogant to list them. Or don't know how. Do you know what you are hoping to achieve? Do their courses fit your wants or needs? Or is something to give you bragging rights? And you think you know what mindset is? Skills, endurance, and ability to take pain are all necessary to win a fight. Plus a mean streak and luck sometimes. These guys aren't going to give that too you in a few days, no matter what they promise. Maybe, they'll help your skill levels, but that's it. Anybody that promises more is throwing BS. |
I may have a little more patience for fools with guns than you do, Chuck. But not much. It's hell getting old, ain't it? I can't tussle or run, so I'll just shoot if I have too. Hopefully before they do.
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Thanks for the info guys. All of it LOL.Sounds like they are actually what I'm looking for, basic stuff. I should have stated this in the OP. I am looking at there Basic Rifle and Pistol Marksmanship classes for my Nephew and I to attend. He's a new shooter, no guns in the family and I live 1500 miles away from him, I can't take him shooting every weekend. He's looking at joining the military after high school I figured it might be good to have SOME basic training so he at least knows which end to point. He's all over doing something together. Besides it would just be fun do do something with him. |
That's cool! I've had my son shooting everything from AKs to M1As at age 11. He's 28 now and loves a bolt gun. If you laid out a scoped bolt gun and military type semiautomatic in front of him in the same caliber, he'll pick up the bolt gun. He loves accuracy. I have some thoughts for you. For a beginner learning to shoot, you can't beat the military style of instruction. Bad habits are very difficult to unlearn. What instruction he receives in a civilian class may cause him problems with military training. Just be sure of what you want him to learn. I'd put hitting the target above all other objectives. That's what it all about anyway.
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Thanks, for the imput danc46. My main goals were to become more comfortable and effiecent with my AR. I had not really thought about these training classes in the sense of offense and defense. You are right I would be benefit more from a defensive class. I had not considered a shotgun course. I will give that some thought. |
FurryJello, get into some 3 gun matches. The guys will give you pointers, you'll practice with the firearms, etc. Don't worry about competing against anybody else, though. Just try to get better each time you go. Some of the boys will give you pointers and help you work out issues if you have them. That's what I love to see in shooting - others helping each other become more proficient with their guns.
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I want to go out their and shoot their 300 meter range, but I have to go to class and get a cerification ????? ( WTF) and the cost is $150 for 12 coupons and $275 for 24 so you either go once or twice a month, work out to $15 to shoot and can shoot only the standard and carbine bay only. That will be fine with me but I don`t want some one with a big head talking down to me because he thinks he a killer, that will piss me off in a heart beat and I`m someone that don`t get mad E Z Did my time !!
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I didn't have anything to comment on till now .but it your main goals are to become more proficient (comfortable/effiecent) with your AR, you'll probably be better suited to buying a several of cases of ammo, at hitting the range with some of the more experience board members in your area, and practice, practice, practice, practice and then practice some more. because I'd think before forking out a shitload of money for a run and gun course you'd already be comfortable/familiar with the AR and know it's feel better than your GF's ass, these guys teaching are going to be instructing on a limited time frame and will not have time for too much individual instruction, so if your not semi proficient with your rifle already, then you'll be left floundering and will come out of the class with less money and Goddamned little learned technique. I feel the same about pistol courses too, if you can't score a 90+ on the standard 50 yard OK CLEET course, then it's a waste of money and time taking a "higher education" course until you can. |
Words of wisdom from Ndenway!
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Interesting, finally someone will comment who has actually gone to a class at USSA. I've taken two classes at USSA. I took their Introduction to Handgun marksmanship on a Friday, and whatever their level one pistol class is called on Saturday and Sunday. In my opinion it was well worth the money. Phil Strader teaches a good portion of the classes out there. You can look at his records and winnings in IPSC and whatever other organized shooting competitions there are and be assured the dude knows how to shoot. About my only gripe was that the classes I took were in early August, and it was about 98 degrees with 100% humidity. Doing the physical activity the class required in that weather wasn't real fun. All in all I came away from it a better shooter. FWIW, I've also taken a class at Tactical Response in Camden, Tennessee and Tiger Valley in Waco, Texas. All these classes have been money well spent in my opinion. |
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One more gem. Before paying someone to train you, do some research on the guy/s. Make sure that they have the qualifications to teach you what you are looking for. There are a lot of wannabees out there. There was one in Lawton trying to pass himself off as a CQB expert. Never been .mil. Never been a cop. He was even pretty up front about the fact that he had never had any training on any of it himself, but he had seen it done a few times. Well he was spreading it around on Ft Sill that he was available to conduct this training for $150 per soldier for one day. A couple of the soldiers happened to know that I know the guy and ask me about him. Now these soldiers had already had at least 1 tour each in combat. I told them the truth(I have a bad habit of doing that all the time) and told them all they had to do to find out for themselves was to go up to him and ask him to describe a "stack" and to explain each members job. Which of course he could not do. I had even tried to warn the dipshit beforehand. Telling him he had zero creds. He wouldn't listen. He made a fool of himself. So just be careful when selecting who you want to train you. |
I read an article by a cop who is extremely well known and highly respected in USPSA and is a supposedly great instructor. He was talking about how he felt secure with his LEO mates who participated in shooting games. He talked about them doing a bust, and a guy reaching for a Glock 21 in his waistband. He talked about how he had the guy covered and his partner next to him fired three shots and missed every time.. The guy dropped the gun and fell to the ground. All that time well known and highly respected cop had the guy covered in case something happened. The stupid bastard FROZE at the worst possible time. And then preceded to talk like he was as cool as a cucumber while his LEO partner missed the target. And he wouldn't have. This is the stupid kind of shit you run into with many well known instructors. I even read where one instructor, Bruce Gray, made a comment that standing next to some well known shooters in competition had the same stress level as having to use a hand gun in self defense. He had no fricking idea of what he is talking about. And people swallow that shit. If you know what you need and can use with a weapon, get that type of training. Don't take some type of training from some yo-yo with a big ego teaching CQB and squad tactics in clearing a house unless you need it. And most here don't. ETA Even someone who has seen the pink halo multiple times is not necessarily qualified to teach you what you want or need to know when it comes to shooting and deadly force. Lots of people will take your money out there when it comes to firearms training. And it's not necessarily good training. And if you're a novice or never had a formal class in specialized firearms training, how do you really know how good that instruction is? Taking a firearms/shooting class is like taking a planned vacation. You figure out where you want to go, what you can do, what you want to do, how much time is spent in what activities, how much latitude do you have in activities, what you need to take, how much it's going to cost, and what are you going to bring home when you're done. A spontaneous or uninformed choice of a vacation can be disastrous. You might be thinking you got one hell of a deal on the vacation and think it was wonderful until you go back some time later after having other planned vacations. Then you realize you got rooked on the first one.  |
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JoshAR, Allow me to set the record straight for you as I do have some "experience" with USSA. I apologize to you for missing this thread and your question. I'm not from OK and I haven't been in this forum on the hometown page, but that will change as I'm no longer going to allow some armchair commando's with no personal knowledge of our facility, instructors, or our capabilities to throw insults and personal attacks our way. First, understand that I'm one of the primary instructors at USSA, so yes I'm a "company" man, but that also means I'm one of the most qualified persons to answer any of your questions. Now to address the issues...
We started conducting courses on a limited basis last March. We anticipated being fully operational by September, 2007, but the 20 year rains we got all last year really set back our construction timetable. We are close to being fully operational and have held an open range day, but we are not fully "Open" for business. Additionally, when we do open, only phase I of the construction will have been completed. We anticipate started Phase II as soon as possible after Phase I.
Apparently, some people don't have the time to do a little research. Our prices are extremely competitive and most of the time our course prices are well below the other Nationally known schools (Blackwater, Thunder Ranch, Gunsite.) It is true that we are interested in becoming the best training institution in the world, but we are not overlooking our local shooters. Originally, we never intended on offering range memberships. We have since reversed ourselves. We realize that we have the best range facility in OK and decided that being local should have it's advantages, so we decided to offer range memberships.
Dan, all of our resumes and profiles are on our web-page (www.usshootingacademy.com) and many of our instructors are profiled in videos demonstrating some of the skills you'll learn at our facility on our website and on youtube. You can see who we are and what we do, it's all out there. How about yours? Where can I go to see your credentials? It's easy to sling crab from behind a keyboard.
FurryJello, thank you. You save me some reply time.
Which instructor's from USSA have you met or taken a course of instruction with? I will apologize ahead of time if that was your experience with us and I want to work to change that. Please let me know the context of whom it was and where and I'll look into the situation.
Dismissing shooting skills and knowledge from 3 segments of the shooting community that probably put more rounds downrange than all other segments combined is probably a little close minded. Not that I'm running you down or anything. Shooting skills do translate.
Only the events that lead up to the use of deadly force are defensive in nature. Once the fight starts, you do what it takes to Win The Fight (sorry, I couldn't pass that one up!) Winning mean using all means at your disposal. There are no levels to Deadly Force. Once that level is reached, all options are on the table, including being offensive. Staying completely defensive in a Deadly Force situation will get you hurt. I would also appreciate it if you didn't include USSA in your sweeping generalizations unless you have personal experience with us and our instructing techniques. I don't talk bad about your NRA instructing skills as I've never trained with you. I would appreciate the same respect.
I completely agree with you. I can assure you there are no group assaults in our rifle courses.
Personal preference....it's my first choice.
We offer several different levels of courses from individual marksmanship courses through team tactics and everything in between. We don't "convince" you of anything. If you have some questions about your needs we'll help you figure them out, but we are not going to hard sell you a team tactics course if you are interested in home defense or CCW.
Both LE and civilians have to follow the laws regarding Deadly Force. The only difference is how each entity works it way up the use of force scale. LE has a bit more latitude than do civilians. Our courses are CLEET approved, but we do not teach CLEET material.
All of our courses and objective are fully described and listed under the course descriptions. Maybe some people are too arrogant to check out a website before they start slinging shit, thinking they have seen all the world has to offer.
Wholeheartedly agree
Nobody can give you the Will to win, but what I can give you is inspiration and motivation to find the Will to win. Mindset is just what is says...a state of Mind. It's not a commodity that I can give or take away, but I can inspire you to get into the proper mindset, and that's no BS.
I completely disagree. Experience is not necessarily a substitute for training. My grandfather has been shooting for over 60 years, but I wouldn't want to take a training course from him. Make sure it's the right experience and you'll be fine. Otherwise you're just wasting ammo.
Most of our courses mandate a maximum of a 4-1 student to instructor ratio. You will get plenty of one-on-one time. I guarantee it.
Wise advice, regardless of where you go. Josh, if you have more questions feel free to contact me through AR15 or through the Shooting Academy website. If you want information, go to the source. If you want an after action review of one of our courses, find someone who's actually been here and experienced what we have to offer. Don't waste your time with mall ninja's hiding behind a keyboard. USSA-1 |
1shott is probably going to step in here and stop this before it escalates. He probably should because of past troubles. You are not worth losing my Arfcom privileges over. I won't address this matter again and I hope no one else does either. |
Thank you.
Not yet, but remember, we haven't even "officially" opened for business yet. Blackwater is the youngest of the three schools, but they still have an 11 year head start on us, but I think it's an enviable goal to strive to be the best.
Of course we are, after all, it is a business. No denying that, but so then are all the other shooting schools around the Country. Ours is no different than any other service oriented business. We offer a service (training/consulting) to people who are looking for said services. We will stand or fall on our service to the customer. This is an extremely competitive field and people have options as to how and where they spend their money. If our service/training is no good our company will die. Therefore our #1 goal is to provide the best service/training to the customer. We think we have the right combination of instructors, facilities and training regimens to reach the goal of being #1.
Thank you, PM your name and I'll look you up. You can find all my credentials on my bio on the instructors tab. I'm the last instructor listed (Erik....)
Can you be more specific? Is it me personally they don't like or USSA as a whole? Either way, please have them contact me at their convenience as I'd like to get some feedback on what they didn't like so we can identify any problems with our programs and make them better.
I take it from your previous posts that you know him personally and I'm glad to see you stand up for your friend. I just wish you would have used that same standard with us. A simple disclaimer that said, "I don't know these guys personally and I've never taken any course from them, but this is my take on..." would have sufficed. Conversely, if you do ever get an opportunity to get to know us at USSA, I hope we will have sufficiently earned your respect to defend us with such vigor in the future.
These are issues of tactics. Set up a scenario and we can discuss different tactics. I can counter just as easy like, "stay in your room and don't venture down the hall to make sure your children are safe." There really is no cookie cutter method to teaching the use of deadly force, even if we wanted too. There are too many variables. You have to be flexible and respond to the situation as best you can. Sometimes the fight is dictated to you and you have to do things you wouldn't normally want to do. You don't always get to pick the time and place a fight happens.
I can't argue with that, but I would ask that you try to have an informed opinion about us before you make a sweeping generalized condemnation.
This is taken in part from Tactical Rifle 230, off our website. Additionally, it also prompts you to contact USSA if you have any other questions. No hidden agendas. Here is what you can expert to learn from this course. An intense amount of correct repetition will hone the skills needed to master the fundaments to the point where students can instinctively and confidently operate their rifle in a hostile environment. Civilians, law enforcement officers, and experienced military operators who rely on their rifle to keep them alive will benefit from the material in this course. The techniques will include, but are not limited to: • Basic rifle zero theories • Basic Rifle configurations and accessories • Fundamentals of shooting • Positional shooting techniques • Precision shooting techniques • Fighting from positions of cover • Rifle reloading techniques • Malfunction clearance techniques • Optic failure drills • Secondary weapon transitions • Multiple threat engagements • Distance shooting • Live-fire room movement and clearance techniques
I sure do as I also instruct our shotgun program. For my individual needs, a rifle is a better choice for me. Wouldn't want to take a cookie-cutter approach to selecting the proper weapon.
Actually it's not. Deadly Force is the final option in the use of force continuum. What I said earlier was that once an incident reached the level of Deadly Force, then all DF options are available. This is supported by the two primary Supreme Court decisions governing use of force, Tennessee v. Garner and Graham v. Conner More specifically, Graham v. Conner states in part (paraphrasing), that once deadly force is necessary, the manner in which that force is applied is of no consequence. Meaning that once DF is authorized it doesn't matter what method I use (shooting, stabbing, choking, running over with car, etc.) so long as the application of DF is authorized.
If you looked further down on that webpage, you would also have seen this...Seems pretty descriptive to me. Students will be extensively drilled in the critical weapon handling techniques to build the subconscious skills necessary to effectively engage a threat with extreme speed and accuracy. Mental aspects of the course will stress inoculation to violence and the development of a winning and survival attitude. Just a few of the critical elements included in this class: • Proper grip, stance, sight and trigger management and more. • High performance weapon manipulations (draws, reloads, malfunctions) • Threat Identification and Acquisition • Proper threat engagement process • Failure Drills (transitioning from one target area to another) • Strong and Support hand shooting positions • Use of Cover • Post engagement actions and scan process • Physiological/Psychological reactions, inoculation to stress
Sorry, but I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. It may not be for everyone, be we have had many students who are devout Christians and as such have had an issue with the possibility of killing another human being in violation of the 10 commandments. Don't tell them this issue isn't spiritual. Dan, its obvious that you have a strong position against most training institutions and I agree with some of what you say. There are a lot of posers out there and you should be careful about where you spend your money. Incidentally, what training institutions would you recommend? I'm not looking to criticize you, but you have some very high standards and I'm curious as to what other institutions would meet your standards. After all, we are striving to be the best. I would also extend this offer to you. I'll be back in town at the end of April to instruct our Tactical Rifle 230 course. Feel free to contact me and come out for a day and observe what we do at USSA. At the very least, you'll be able to put my ugly face to a screen name. USSA-1 |
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Sheesh. I didn't want to start a net war! I was just looken for some local feed back. USSA-1, I'll be calling in the next week as soon as I get a confirmation from my Sister on the dates, my Nephew is all over going just a mater of scheduling all us silly people. Latter all. |
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Good afternoon shooters, I am the Director of operations for the US. Shooting Academy. I have been made aware that there is some confusion with some TACTICAL GENERALS out there who seem to not understand the purpose, philosophy, teaching methodology and Instructor EXPERIENCE that USSA proudly calls family. So if i may, let me get you and those like you, squared away. Purpose: To do exactly the opposite of what is alleged in this forum about this facilities and its staff!!! We eliminate the BS that is evident at many training facility's in this country. If we are not talking, training, teaching and learning lessons that pertain to WINNING THE FIGHT we are wasting your time and you ours and you should depart and seek training elsewhere. We tell you that when you get here NO ONE HAS LEFT YET!! Philosophy: To eliminate the BS and provide Lessons learned from winning fights in the Military, Law Enforcement, Security contracting all around the world from a World class Permanent and adjunct Instructor staff which i will compare to ANY STAFF PAST OR PRESENT. More to follow on those world class instructors. Teaching Methodology: Student focused learning period. If that style of teaching and learning is not familiar to you, please take some time to read some of our testimonials from All branches of our Military to include Special operations units, Law enforcement professionals and Civilians alike. You may understand this concept of learning much better then. Instructor Experience: On our permanent staff alone, USSA employs a world champion pistol shooter, another world ranked pistol shooter, Two retired Marines of infantry and reconnaissance back-rounds, one of which took his career to federal law enforcement after retirement with the US Secret Service and became one of the first instructors hired after 911 for the rebuilding of the Federal Air Marshal Service. Current and former SWAT officers and patrol officers, Security contractors from the streets of Ramadi. Nationally ranked 3 gun shooters and that's just some of the highlights of our permanent staff only. Our Adjunct staff of approximately 40 instructors would be difficulty at least to give due credit to in this forum alone, although we do employ Nationally ranked IPSC shooters, A world Sniper Team Competition Champion and i could go on and on, but i think you get the point. We employ world wide experienced instructor's who attend a 3 day certification course here at USSA consisting of both shooting evaluations, instructor presentation techniques, Student focoused learning exercises so we can ensure that the fit is beneficial for all. Simply said " We can not only talk about a stack, we can teach about a stack and we can execute a stack" I have entirely exhausted my one typing finger and there is so much more to say, so i will offer this to those of you who are still confused about any aspect of the USSA. COME ON DOWN. Lets compare notes, lets talk tactics, shoot guns, present material, talk student learning techniques, Lets not waste any more time being confused about what USSA is all about and making uneducated and unwarranted comments from the comfort of your living room about my USSA facility and staff family, my typing finger for one just can't take it. We look forward to seeing you on campus IN "MY STATE " to help us raise our motivation and eliminate the BS. Semper Fi |
Fister, No sarcastic welcome is needed. Once again, what is so hard about doing a little research before you start insulting us? If you had taken the time to check, we are an Industry Sponsor and have been since June 2007. You can find our company in the Industry section just like all the other companies that support this site.
Again, if you had taken the time to check out our website you would have found exactly what you were looking for, but to help you out, here you go. http://www.usshootingacademy.com/about/instructors/ Good shooting, USSA-1 |
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Your right I did not check. I see you are not freeloading as so many others here do. (Sorry its a personal peeve) If I had the time to do all that reasearch then I would not be married anymore. Looks like a good outfit. I am very surprised you didn't make yourselves known in you own HT forum. That would have saved at least one page of this thread. And kept me out of the corner  Guess I need to cut back on the wine during, before, and after dinner. Thanks for the update. ETA - Sarcasm is the #1 prduct of the OK HT Forum. Of course if you spent more time here you would understand.
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I'm up to speed now! Thanks!
Ahh, so many things to do, we just didn't get around to it until now. I've been on the GA HTF for quite a while, but I never really got over here until recently. There's just so much to do when you're trying to get a company this size off the ground. We still haven't officially opened for business and we've already had several Special Operations Teams and the OK National Guard come through, along with a full year of training courses. And of course, those rains last year didn't help things, but we are catching up and are very close to our official start date. I'll be around here more often. If there's anything I can do, don't hesitate to PM me. USSA-1 |
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Well I wouldn't consider myself a tactical general (maybe a tactical CSM). However, I'd probably put my creds up against anyones. Both as a trigger puller and an educator. But since I work for the .gov, anything more and I'd have to kiil you all I do wish you all at USSA good luck. I've seen bits and pieces in the USPSA rag on your business. I'd suggest that before you come on here name calling, YOU had better know who you are talking about. Just as you called others out for. After all, I'd think that your rep on here could help or hurt your business.
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Chucks1911, Thank you for the welcome.
Calling people out is not what we are about, but we will stand to and defend ourselves in the face of unwarranted and unsubstantiated, direct personal attacks (which, incidentally are in violation of #6 on the board code of conduct.) All of our information is out there for anyone to see and judge for themselves as to whether or not we are qualified to earn your business. All you have to do is visit our webpage and you'll find everything you want to know about who we are, our instructor's, and our programs and if you can't find it, contact us and we'll answer any questions you have. Unfortunately, you have a personal account and I couldn't find out about you even if I wanted to. Where should I look for you? Not looking to criticize you, but you suggested we find out who you are. How should I go about doing that? If you are uncomfortable with that information being public, feel free to PM or email me. I will keep any information you provide confidential, if you so request. We are always looking for qualified adjunct instructors with LE or MIL experience. USSA-1 |
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Thanks for the heads up Chuck, at least i know i'm talking to an enlisted man now. Would love to review your creds. As long as you don't have to kill me if i do so. Mine can be found on our web site and it is perfectly safe to review them at any time. As far as name calling Chuck, I don't believe anyone was called a name,but if that is the assumption i stand corrected, although this so called name calling began way before my post. Last but not least Chuck, I'm real confident about who i'm talking about and to who i'm talking to. In my case i've done my research. If your Gov job can cut you away, the invitation to tour the USSA facility and learn more about us is still open. We have many classes and training blocks forming for Military, LE and civilian that you may wish to observe or take part in. I look forward to meeting or hearing from you soon you soon. Semper Fi |
I'll come back in this thread to counter your first statement I have outlined in red. No direct personal attacks were made. If you think previous statement didn't fit some of your instructors, then why did you respond? For the second part in red, your emphasis, background, and expertise is to those areas - military and law enforcement. It is not from the perspective of a citizen and his/her need and use for firearms. There is a HUGE difference in the use of firearms between civilians and military and LE. I said USE as in PURPOSE, skills not addressed in that statement. From your statements about Chuck's information being unknown, am I to assume you looked into getting his personal information and mine because we disagreed with you? And for what purpose? |
I'm definately not looking for work Couldn't handle it physically anymore anyway The .gov has used up my body and is now trying to use up (whats left of) my mind Like I said earlier in the thread my running and gunning, and my days as a steely eyed killer are over. 23 1/2 years active duty and going on 4 now civil service. I'm a "civilized gentleman educator" now. Anymore I'm not willing to discuss. You want to see my DD-214? I'm also not going to get into an intraweb "who's got the biggest pecker" contest with you either. I should of expected it from a former marine though I have one working for me here.Like I said before, I wish you guys good luck. |
Dan, Dan, Dan, where to start? How about the original post.
I think any discussion from this point on is directed at or experience with USSA, as that was the question. Then you jumped right in...Here's some of your direct quotes.
Hey Dan, what other training instutitions with the initials U-S-S-A are in your State?
Dan, that's our company motto. What other institution in your State uses it? Incidently, your quoted as saying you've "heard those guys." When and where did you hear us as you seem to be claiming personal knowledge.
To whom are you referring to in the previous statement when using the quoted word, "you & your?"
Since the original thread specifically asked about USSA and you weakly attempted to cut and paste a tiny part of one of our course announcement pages to prove your point, again you seem to be referring to USSA when you called us arrogant as part of you assessment of them (USSA.) Dan, it seems pretty clear to me that your unsubstantiated, personal attacks were directed right at USSA.
I think it's pretty clear why we responded, but I'll put your question to you. If you had no direct, personal knowledge about USSA, then why did you respond to JoshAR's original post?
You offered up your credentials as a firearms instructor and as a professional educator at the University of Oklahoma for me to inspect in one of your responses. I accepted your offer, yet, as of this post, you have not provided any location or method for me to inspect the credentials that you offered. You asked for mine and I provided them. If you wish to withdraw your offer and remain in the shadows, just say so. There's no sinister purpose. You offered and I accepted. Dan, I'm a fair man. It seems very clear to me they type of person you are, but if I'm wrong and this whole conversation was a mistake, or it was taken out of context, or it was never your intent to personally attack USSA, then a simple apology to the United States Shooting Academy will suffice and we'll call it square and move on. I await your response, sir. USSA-1 |
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This will be my absolute last post in this thread. First of all, your organization is NOT A PERSON. Secondly, there are no institutional standards or industry requirements for civilian shooting instruction. It is very much caveat emptor. Lastly, "Win the Fight" may be appropriate for military groups, but not for LE, and especially not for a civilian. Civilians do not WIN in fights with firearms. They are legally limited to use of deadly force with a firearm ONLY in self defense. Civliians only SURVIVE an armed encounter. If an armed civilian does use deadly force in self defense, he is limiting his loss by preventing physical harm. Even the Custody and Control segments of many LE training academies are called Defensive Tactics for legal reasons. Do you think any LE agency is going to call their firearms training - Win the Fight? Officer Survival is more likely. The legal liability of using deadly force with a firearm is even greater for a civilian than it is for a LEO. If your organization's name was United States Shooting Skills Academy and you didn't use the motto "Win the Fight", I'd have no problems and would wish you nothing but the best. |
| No DD 214 Chuck, I'm sure there is not enough space on this forum for that much info, but thank-you for your 23 plus years of service to this Nation and your continued civil service since retirement. As far as the "Biggest Pecker" comment, i'll just leave that one alone. Cuddo's for the Former Marine comment, I would not of anticipated that level of courtesy,although your office must be quite proficent having "one working for you". Finally Chuck, take care of that body and mind,its all you got. We offer training in the area of combat fitness and mindset that may be of interest to you. Once again it is a pleasure to speak with you Chuck, thank-you for your good wishes and i hope to speak with you again soon. |
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Dan, It's clear that we have a fundamental difference on the application of Deadly Force as it pertains to Civilians, LE, and Mil. It makes for an interesting theoretical discussion were it to remain at that level. Instead you have chosen to directly attack the reputation of the United States Shooting Academy as a corporation and the instructors as individuals, with slanderous, uninformed, and unsubstantiated allegations as to our instructors skills and our training programs. We have offered to have you come to our facility and personally judge for yourself what we are all about. We have answered all your insults with verifiable facts and/or website locations where you could find the answer to your questions. We have offered to handle the matter in a confidential way to protect any personal issues you may have and we have risen to any insult or challange to our credibility you have alledged. Finally, we offered to end this by conceding this was a simple misunderstanding that got a little out of control. In your absolute last response, you choose not address any of the personal attacks you slung at us and choose not to accept our virtual "Gentlemen's handshake" to put this matter behind us. Instead you remain defiant and stand by your accusations. Accordingly, We feel these personal attacks are a violation of the forum code of conduct and are a matter for the owners of AR15.com to review. We will be contacting them shortly. USSA-1 |
Wow. Welcome to the OK HT. You guys are going to have to lighten up a bit. The term thin skin comes to mind. I truely hope you dont intend to grind an axe with any memeber that has a subjective opinion of your training course or facilities. __________________________________________________________________________________ On a side note do you guys teach Defensive methods or Offensive? An example would be do you teach your shooters to engage and destroy as to overwhelm the opposition? Or do you teach to shoot 1 round with proper placment as to eliminate the threating situation and not the threat itself? As I see it the military / contractor point of view greatly differs from the Civilian / LEO perspective. __________________________________________________________________________________ Also do you guys intend to have an ARFCOM member group shoot anytime so we can see what the curriculum and the facilities are like? |
| I do have to say that I have talked with them several times, about different courses and now the memberships, and they have always been extremely helpful! Since I don't have any Free land to shoot on, I plan on purchasing a range membership sometime here in the near future. I can provide some type of feedback on their facilities in the near future if you would like to hear about it. |
That would be great. I would really like to come out and look around esp if there is BBQ involved and new ARFCOMMERS to meet. Maybe they would be willing to hold a once a year ARFCOM shoot / match. That would extend their client base as well as promote the site. Win Win for everyone.
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Fister, not at all. Our courses and methodologies are not set in stone. Our courses are constantly changing and evolving based on our experiences during training and from feedback from former students around the world. I'm always trying to learn, beg, borrow, or steal, as much as I can to be a better instructor. I'll hang out with you all night talking about tactics, training, gear (yeah, I'm a gear head. I admit it.) or whatever else comes up. Critically deconstructing these concepts helps to verify or expose their strengths or weaknesses. We are constantly putting our technique to the test to see if they hold up. It will be no different on this forum. You are correct, we are new to this forum and as such we are trying to establish a positive image or ourselves and what we can offer to anyone interested in our product. unfortunately, we were placed in a difficult position right out of the gate. We either had to defend ourselves or let the allegations go unanswered. No amount of professional discourse was going to resolve the allegations, so we were forced to defend ourselves. The rest is recent history.
It all depends on what course your taking. The rules of engagement are different for Civilians, LE, MIL, and Contractors. We offer everything from basic marksmanship courses and the way up to team tactics and everything in between. I think the confusing part to some people is the concept of offensive vs. defensive. Let's take a simplified example, if you walk up to me and start a fistfight and I do everything to avoid it, but in the end you throw a punch at me. Up until this point I'm being defensive. If I throw a counter-punch back at you, am I still being defensive or am I now being offensive? If I'm truly being defensive, then I should only trade one punch for one punch. If I throw a 3 punch combination am I now being offensive? Could I be arrested for throwing 2 more punches than my assailant? How would you characterize it? I take it as an ongoing, rapidly evolving assault. Once a threat presents itself to you and you have determined a proper, legal response. You are allowed to use as much force that is reasonable to stop the attack, be it one punch or three. Once the threat is stopped, the justification for using force is over. If you have to put the event in terms of offensive/defensive, then you are defensive up until your threatened with physical harm. Once you have made a determination to use force to protect yourself (at whatever level), you are allowed to offensively use that force until the threat to you is stopped.
I think that is an outstanding idea and I'll try to start the ball rolling. Would you guys be interested in renting C3 weapons from us? We have quite a selection of subguns, AK's (47 & 74), RPD's, and PKM's. (We use them all the time for our foreign threat weapons courses.) USSA-1 |
We do not offer a dedicated AK course.....yet, although I'm working on it. If you have any others interested in a dedicated AK course, call USSA and let them know. Having said that, you are more than welcome to attend our Tactical Rifle 230 and 231 with any AK based platform. I have several AK's myself and I often use them when I'm instructing to illustrate that certain shooting skills translate, regardless of what weapon your using. USSA-1 |