Posted: 6/7/2009 11:51:25 AM EDT
| Does the entire weapon need to be visible to be considered open carried? For example, say I am carrying concealed, and I go into a restaurant where I must now be carrying openly, can I just tuck in my shirt leaving the pistol grip exposed? |
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I just reread the Open Carry section of The Virginia Gun Owners Handbook to see if I could give you a decent answer to your question.
The wording that was used on page 53 is it is generally legal to open carry a loaded or unloaded gun if it is not concealed from plain sight.
I know that isn't very specific, but I find that to be the case with many of our law that pertain to the 2nd amendment. It would seem to me that if someone could point you out and identify that you have a gun sticking out of your belt, you would be within your rights. |
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IWB, no Where did you get that from? § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon.....For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature. I'm not lawyer, but the way I read the law, and the way it has been interpreted for me is that as long as the handgun would be recognized as a handgun by a reasonable person it is not concealed. I carry IWB and I do the "Virginia Tuck" by tucking my cover garment behind my gun when entering a restaurant that serves alcohol. |
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IWB, no Where did you get that from? § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon.....For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature. I'm not lawyer, but the way I read the law, and the way it has been interpreted for me is that as long as the handgun would be recognized as a handgun by a reasonable person it is not concealed. I carry IWB and I do the "Virginia Tuck" by tucking my cover garment behind my gun when entering a restaurant that serves alcohol. The Commonwealth Attorney of Virginia Beach. I sent an email a while back regaring this exact same subject. If someone who has a memebership cares to check the archives you should be able to find my post. |
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It seems to me that if my shirt is tucked in, and you can see the pistol grip, hammer (bobbed hammer in my case Hk P2000SK LEM), rear sight, magazine butt plate, and two plastic hooks on my belt from the holster, anyone who has ever seen a handgun (even if only on TV) would immediately identify it as such. Therefore, I expect that a LEO would consider it open carry, and legal so.
Has anyone using the "Virginia Tuck" ever run into trouble with this? I'm asking because I've never open carried (I'm from TX with a VA recognized TX CHL) but don't want to shell out the cash for an OWB holster when I think my IWB holster would do just fine. |
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I've known lots of folks who use the VA Tuck method of carrying in restaurants, and am unaware of any case where this was deemed to be conceal carry.
I believe that the "common observation" rationale in relation to VA Tuck goes like this: If the carry method were truly concealed, then the police would have no idea that you were armed. If you are in a restaurant and the police approach you for carrying, by definition the gun is NOT hidden from common observation. The problem with "common observation" is that you can OWB carry and most folks don't notice it, so who gets to define "common?" You may wish to read this thread on Open Carry: Open Carry VA Tuck thread There is a remotely related case discussed there, has to do with a bad guy stopped for unrelated reasons and during the frisk the officer saw the butt of the gun. Other than that, there's no case law. |
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I'm not a big fan of the "Virginia Tuck" thing. One day, someone will get jammed up with that. What do mean "jammed up?" They won't be able to draw their weapon properly when needed? Or they'll be arrested for carrying "concealed" with the VA tuck method when not allowed? |
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I'm not a big fan of the "Virginia Tuck" thing. One day, someone will get jammed up with that. What do mean "jammed up?" They won't be able to draw their weapon properly when needed? Or they'll be arrested for carrying "concealed" with the VA tuck method when not allowed? Many people wrongly believe that "Virginia tuck" is some kind of legal explanation or accepted defense. IMO, carrying in an IWB (which is designed/sold/advertised as a concealment holster) is still concealed even if you tuck your shirt behind the grip. The majority of the gun/holster is concealed inside the pants. So many people carry Blackberry, phones, pocket knives etc that a grip sticking out of the pants may not be readily observable as a gun. There is a Michigan court case (decision still pending, I think) that is based on a gentleman carrying IWB sans holster. Do yourself a favor and just get a dedicated open carry style holster for the times that you need to OC. ETA - Check this out - Here is an IWB holster, as strange as it looks. Read how its advertised. A good prosecutor would say, " did you read the description of the holster when you purchased it?" Concealed Holster for Glock Models - GLC by Fobus You have 0 item(s) in your Shopping Cart Inside the Waistband Concealed Holster for Glock Models - GLC by Fobus E-mail this product to a friend 
Fobus - GLC This Inside the Waistband holster is the 1st in a Series of a New Generation of Holsters. It is the first IWB designed by Fobus and is contoured to allow a full range of motion while in use. This unique holster makes the handgun appear almost invisible inside your waistband. The holster is lightweight for all day concealed carry and allows single hand reholstering. The handgun is retained using a passive retention system similar to that on other Fobus holsters. An upper and lower retaining hook is designed to maintain attachment of the holster to your belt, with the upper hook being the only part of the holster that is visible outside your belt. Fits: Glock models 17,19, 26, 22, 23, 27. |
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I VA Tuck when I OC, but that is because I only have IWB holsters. I take that back, I have a OWB, but it does not retain the weapon the way I like so I simply NEVER use it.
By doing the VA Tuck, my PERSONAL belief is that you are showing the butt, and handgrip of the weapon. There is no mistaking what it is, and I am not trying to disguise what it is. The only time this would ever become an issue (IMO) is in a restraurant where it is required to OC. Otherwise, the requirement is not there, so it doesnt really matter if you are OCing around town in an IWB. These are just my opinions though, and this is how I conduct my own business day to day. But I say that knowing that I have considered most of my options, and have decided on a course of action that I am happy with. |
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I'm not a big fan of the "Virginia Tuck" thing. One day, someone will get jammed up with that. What do mean "jammed up?" They won't be able to draw their weapon properly when needed? Or they'll be arrested for carrying "concealed" with the VA tuck method when not allowed? Many people wrongly believe that "Virginia tuck" is some kind of legal explanation or accepted defense. IMO, carrying in an IWB (which is designed/sold/advertised as a concealment holster) is still concealed even if you tuck your shirt behind the grip. The majority of the gun/holster is concealed inside the pants. So many people carry Blackberry, phones, pocket knives etc that a grip sticking out of the pants may not be readily observable as a gun. There is a Michigan court case (decision still pending, I think) that is based on a gentleman carrying IWB sans holster. Do yourself a favor and just get a dedicated open carry style holster for the times that you need to OC. ETA - Check this out - Here is an IWB holster, as strange as it looks. Read how its advertised. A good prosecutor would say, " did you read the description of the holster when you purchased it?" Concealed Holster for Glock Models - GLC by Fobus You have 0 item(s) in your Shopping Cart Inside the Waistband Concealed Holster for Glock Models - GLC by Fobus E-mail this product to a friend http://www.wescooutfitters.com/images/PRODUCT/medium/fobuspicglc.jpg Fobus - GLC This Inside the Waistband holster is the 1st in a Series of a New Generation of Holsters. It is the first IWB designed by Fobus and is contoured to allow a full range of motion while in use. This unique holster makes the handgun appear almost invisible inside your waistband. The holster is lightweight for all day concealed carry and allows single hand reholstering. The handgun is retained using a passive retention system similar to that on other Fobus holsters. An upper and lower retaining hook is designed to maintain attachment of the holster to your belt, with the upper hook being the only part of the holster that is visible outside your belt. Fits: Glock models 17,19, 26, 22, 23, 27. And a decent defense attorney will ask the arresting officer why they arrested you. The officer will respond that he saw a gun in your belt, the attorney will ask if it was concealed and the officer will explain, when properly questioned, that the gun was plainly visible above the belt line and he recognized that it was a gun. I think it's a non issue, but until there is some case law in VA we won't know for sure. I'll continue to Virginia Tuck. |
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Would you consider this a safe open carry with the Tuck method? The entire grip and part of the slide are showing. I would figure everyone can tell what it is. I would only use this method if I decided to go in a restaurant or something. I generally prefer to conceal carry. Less attention haha
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/562/sideviewk.jpg |
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Would you consider this a safe open carry with the Tuck method? The entire grip and part of the slide are showing. I would figure everyone can tell what it is. I would only use this method if I decided to go in a restaurant or something. I generally prefer to conceal carry. Less attention haha http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/562/sideviewk.jpg I would consider that open carry (as long as your outer shirt was removed). But whether it will be considered "safe", well that depends on a number of things and you probably could be hassled for it. If it was me, I'd just get an OWB holster as someone else suggested. Might be simpler that way to avoid the fuss. |
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Some of you who have been VCDL members for a while may remember some college kids getting briefly hemmed up in Fairfax for open carry before FCPD got straightened out by PVC...One of them was doing the "Virginia Tuck."
My personal opinion...why risk someone else disagreeing with your interpretation. You could potentially get summonsed based on a disagreement of opinion and have to slog it out in court. Not worth it in my book. |
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Some of you who have been VCDL members for a while may remember some college kids getting briefly hemmed up in Fairfax for open carry before FCPD got straightened out by PVC...One of them was doing the "Virginia Tuck." My personal opinion...why risk someone else disagreeing with your interpretation. You could potentially get summonsed based on a disagreement of opinion and have to slog it out in court. Not worth it in my book. I'm waiting for someone to tell a judge that they were doing the "Virginia tuck", and that its all fine. |
| while I generally agree that for Open Carry an OWB holster is best, I don't think that's the point. The point is that if you are conceal carrying and decide to go in a restaurant, what do you do with the gun? I don't plan on carrying around a second holster for OWB carry. I guess I can either leave the gun in the car or risk it all with the Virginia Tuck method lol |
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while I generally agree that for Open Carry an OWB holster is best, I don't think that's the point. The point is that if you are conceal carrying and decide to go in a restaurant, what do you do with the gun? I don't plan on carrying around a second holster for OWB carry. I guess I can either leave the gun in the car or risk it all with the Virginia Tuck method lol I have a dual OC/CC cheapie holster that I keep in my vehicle for spontaneous occassions. If I know I'm going out to eat, I just dress with the appropriate holster. Cheap dual purpose nylon holsters can be found anywhere for about $10-20 |
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I'm not a big fan of the "Virginia Tuck" thing. One day, someone will get jammed up with that. Philip Van Cleave of VCDL has posted here on ARFCOM that he frequently uses an IWB holster to open carry. The VA Tuck. Philip is also well known and has access to a boat load of lawyers. The rest of us, OTOH, run the risk of mystifying a Barney. Personal opinion - If you live in Arlington (NOVA) or Richmond, for example, it might be in your best interests to not leave any doubt as to what is or is not. |
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My only thought is that my IWB holster does not have a strap to hold it securely by choice. My OWB holsters have either a method to secure them or a strap, in either case, they are not going anywhere.
I have often wondered what the law says about open carrying with my IWB holster. Overall, I guess I should either not take a chance or carry two holsters to avoid a problem. Still that statement sounds like a scaried-e-cat/ |
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I have often wondered what the law says about open carrying with my IWB holster. The law doesnt say anything about open carry. But it does say something about concealed carry. VA Law defines concealed carry as: A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation,........
I'm not a lawyer, but I just don't see how you can define this: 
As having a handgun hidden from common observation. Any reasonable person can plainly see a handgun on their hip, they would not mistake the grip of the handgun for a blackberry, cell phone, or any other device commonly worn on the belt. The picture is not me, but that is how I open carry on the rare occasions that I do. |
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VA Law defines concealed carry as: A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation,........ And Va law also says that "a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature". With a fair percentage of the gun concealed in an IWB, its not a far stretch that this defintion could apply, in someone's eyes. Just playing devil's advocate here. If all we had in the world were IWB holsters, that would be one thing. Since we have holsters available that are truly dedicated OWB, why take the chance? |
| The way I look at it, is if someone approaches you about the gun, they obviously "observed" it well enough to know what it is, so it is open carry. If someone comes up to me and says you can't conceal carry in a resaurant, I would simply state the fact that they obviously just "commonly observed" it and that it is not considered concealed carry. You just can't argue that something is hidden from "Common Observation" when you just "Commonly Observed" it lol To be honest, my gun in my waistband is no more covered up than if it were on my waist in a holster. The difference being, that the holster is covered up if it is IWB. I guess what you would have to watch out for is the "such deceptive appearance" part, which I believe would be a stretch to apply it to an IWB holster. It's not like you dressed it up in a Tutu and tried to pass it off as a small dog. :) With my IWB, half the gun is still visible. You just aren't going to mistake it for anything else. |
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The way I look at it, With my IWB, half the gun is still visible. You just aren't going to mistake it for anything else. I think he just struck gold here. If I open carry in my OWB holster and half of my gun is still visble, doesn't that answer the question? I have at least 3 owb holsters where the barrel is completely covered by the holster itself. |
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VA Law defines concealed carry as: A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation,........ And Va law also says that "a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature". With a fair percentage of the gun concealed in an IWB, its not a far stretch that this defintion could apply, in someone's eyes. Just playing devil's advocate here. If all we had in the world were IWB holsters, that would be one thing. Since we have holsters available that are truly dedicated OWB, why take the chance? Do you really think that you can argue that the "True Nature" of either of the handguns in the picture I posted is disguised? Would a reasonable person think that either of those peoples handguns were anything but a handgun? You are really grabbing at straws Sarge. Wouldn't you say that this OWB holster conceals the nature of the handgun more than my IWB holster does: 
yet even with a holster like that most reasonable people would assume you are carrying a gun. As to why take the chance? I usually conceal carry, for the most part, the only times I open carry are to go into establishments that serve alcohol for on premise consumption. My normal conceal carry holster is a Kramer #2 IWB like the ones shown in the picture I posted. My daily carry gun is a Glock 17. Why should I remove my gun, undo my belt, remove my holster, put on another holster, then re-holster my gun. That's a lot of unnecessary gun handling in the confines of my car. It increases the possibility of a ND, inside my car with me in it. It increases the possibility that someone walking by my car will see me with my pants unbuckled and/or a gun in my hand and call the police. It is much simpler to just tuck my cover garment in behind my gun and walk calmly into the restaurant. At the Republican convention in Richmond I open carried my G17 in my Kramer #2 IWB holster. I walked past at least half a dozen cops. If there was any issue with my method of concealed carry I'm sure they would have discussed it with me. But you know what, every single one of them recognized my G17 for what it was, a legally open carried handgun. Case law means a lot in VA. Show me a case where a law abiding citizen was arrested for nothing more than openly carrying a handgun in an IWB holster and I'll change my ways. Until then I'll continue to VA Tuck when I enter an establishment that servers alcohol and conceal carry every where else. Why take the chance? Because the chance of me being arrested for concealed carry while open carrying a G17 in an IWB holster is so small that to me it is nonexistent. |
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Do you really think that you can argue that the "True Nature" of either of the handguns in the picture I posted is disguised? Its not for me to argue. Like I said, I'm playing devil's advocate because I have seen stranger things happen. Legal definitions have been interpreted differently by different people Would a reasonable person think that either of those peoples handguns were anything but a handgun? Depends on the person, their experience, observation skills, ability to recognize a handgun. You are really grabbing at straws Sarge. Wouldn't you say that this OWB holster conceals the nature of the handgun more than my IWB holster does: http://image.sportsmansguide.com/dimage/93232_ts.JPG?cell=200,200&cvt=jpeg yet even with a holster like that most reasonable people would assume you are carrying a gun. I would say that the holster pictured certainly conceals the nature of the gun and I would bet that a 50/50 percentage of non "gun people" would think that was some kind of bag or purse. As to why take the chance? I usually conceal carry, for the most part, the only times I open carry are to go into establishments that serve alcohol for on premise consumption. My normal conceal carry holster is a Kramer #2 IWB like the ones shown in the picture I posted. My daily carry gun is a Glock 17. Why should I remove my gun, undo my belt, remove my holster, put on another holster, then re-holster my gun. That's a lot of unnecessary gun handling in the confines of my car. It increases the possibility of a ND, inside my car with me in it. It increases the possibility that someone walking by my car will see me with my pants unbuckled and/or a gun in my hand and call the police. It is much simpler to just tuck my cover garment in behind my gun and walk calmly into the restaurant. That is of course, your choice. You could easily get an OWB that doesnt require you to expose yourself. At the Republican convention in Richmond I open carried my G17 in my Kramer #2 IWB holster. I walked past at least half a dozen cops. If there was any issue with my method of concealed carry I'm sure they would have discussed it with me. (IF, they even noticed your gun, or you, or if they didnt feel concerned because EVERYONE was carrying). But you know what, every single one of them recognized my G17 for what it was, a legally open carried handgun. Now you certainly can't tell me what they recognized, no more than I can tell you what you are thinking at any given moment. You can't assume someone else's observations. Case law means a lot in VA. (Yes it does) Show me a case where a law abiding citizen was arrested for nothing more than openly carrying a handgun in an IWB holster and I'll change my ways. (Just because there is no case law simply means that there hasnt been a case yet. It neither adds nor takes away anything from the legality of the issue. There is a pending Michigan case that I heard about that may turn out to be a barometer for such a situation in the future.) Until then I'll continue to VA Tuck when I enter an establishment that servers alcohol and conceal carry every where else. (Again, your perogative) Why take the chance? Because the chance of me being arrested for concealed carry while open carrying a G17 in an IWB holster is so small that to me it is nonexistent. (Well, let's hope that you are correct and that it never comes to that) |
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On the rare occasion I OC, I use a safariland 6285 on a wilderness instructor belt, and an eagle double mag carrier on weak side.
It clears armor and is very obviously an OC handgun, there's no mistaking it. I imagine that if you're OCing with a CCW rig, a police officer could detain you while he determined whether or not you were CCWing without a license. In other words, a hassle. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it's possible. That being said, I CCW 99% of the time as I prefer to go low profile. |
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VA Law defines concealed carry as: A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation,........ And Va law also says that "a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature". With a fair percentage of the gun concealed in an IWB, its not a far stretch that this defintion could apply, in someone's eyes. Just playing devil's advocate here. If all we had in the world were IWB holsters, that would be one thing. Since we have holsters available that are truly dedicated OWB, why take the chance? The same amount of your firearm is covered with a IWB and OWB. In fact, my Milt Sparks VM2 IWB covers LESS of my 1911 than my OWB holster, so I'd venture to say my OWB conceals my firearm MORE (retention strap covers a lot of area). I don't get the argument. If the IWB and OWB holsters hide 75% of the action, that part is "hidden" anyway, so why does it matter if it is in your waist band or out? I've been stopped int he middle of the night walking to the grocery store by a LEO for "Virginia Tucking" - if it was concealed how could she have been able to tell, in the middle of the night, it was a gun and known to stop me? It was a non-issue in the end, because - it was in plain sight. |