[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Zimmerman protests (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/14/2013 11:40:55 AM EDT
| According to Fox 11, there have been protests over the Zimmerman verdict in Milwaukee and Madison. Doesn't sound like any have turned violent though, so that's good. |
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Thought there hasn't been a verdict yet. Seriously? He was found not guilty last night... verdict came back shortly after 9pm. Watching the MSNBC meltdown since last night has been very entertaining. I NEVER watch that fucked up channel... but this time I made an exception, and it has been worth it. 
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What is more likely to happen is not full blown riots, but individual assaults on unwary victims... in the name of "justice for Trayvon".  Innocent people will be targeted, but of course that won't be racially motivated hate crimes. 
I also predict more hood-rats will die when they pick on the wrong (armed) citizens, and it'll start all over.... seeking "justice" for "insert hood-rat's name here". 
This trial, and it's aftermath, has me convinced that there's no way this country will ever "come together" without a fight (literally). It's more polarized than it's been since 1861. If you don't think I'm right, then tell me what you would be willing to give up to pacify or compromise with "the other side" ? ... because they sure as hell won't give in to pacify you. What would you do to keep what you've got if "they" tried to impose their "changes" on you by force? |
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Despite the race-baiters and shakedown artists trying to feed on this, the average person that looked at the evidence knows what happened.
All Zimmerman did was upset Treyvon by looking at him when he didn't want to be looked at. Treyvon took the incident from eyeballing to physical violence. Treyvon Martin beat George Zimmereman relentlessly for about a minute straight. Zimmerman was shrieking like a bitch and not landing any blows. It wasn't a 'fight'. It was an attack. Reflect on this point. You're angry. You land a dozen or so solid blows, and you're 'opponent' is crying out for help. Isn't the matter quite settled? Hasn't he learned not to mess with you? Trey-Trey wasn't satiated, and he continued until he was shot. Boo hoo for poor Trey-Dog. Truth is that he was a junior thug on his way to grander thugitude, and Zimmerman spared Treyvon's future victims. Trey-dad is a POS too. He was schooling his son to be a POS. Link. All this garbage about, "I guess you they can just gun us down for having Skittles while black!!!" is utter nonsense. The only injustice is the way they've persecuted an innocent man to satiate terroristic threats from a mob. You can be black and adopt a self destructive subculture identity to your heart's content, and no one will do anything but avoid you. Vicious physical attacks will get you dead. Teaching black youth that the system is stacked against them and that they're justified to lash out, will only get more of them dead. |
| Yup, I heard fireworks too, soon after verdict was read. Did seem like more than "nornal". Didn't put 2 & 2 together til now, as I've heard fireworks almost every night for the past month, a normal nightly occurrance in mid-summer. People who come up north on vacation like to blow off fireworks almost nightly. Money to burn, I guess. |
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Thought there hasn't been a verdict yet. Seriously? He was found not guilty last night... verdict came back shortly after 9pm. Not really a priority for me. Do you know who won the race at Sachsenring today? That's more important to me. Not a priority for me either... but it was all over TV & internet for the past 24 hrs. It was actually hard to avoid if you had a TV on. btw.... Marc Marquez ... on a Honda.
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Despite the race-baiters and shakedown artists trying to feed on this, the average person that looked at the evidence knows what happened. All Zimmerman did was upset Treyvon by looking at him when he didn't want to be looked at. Treyvon took the incident from eyeballing to physical violence. Treyvon Martin beat George Zimmereman relentlessly for about a minute straight. Zimmerman was shrieking like a bitch and not landing any blows. It wasn't a 'fight'. It was an attack. Reflect on this point. You're angry. You land a dozen or so solid blows, and you're 'opponent' is crying out for help. Isn't the matter quite settled? Hasn't he learned not to mess with you? Trey-Trey wasn't satiated, and he continued until he was shot. Boo hoo for poor Trey-Dog. Truth is that he was a junior thug on his way to grander thugitude, and Zimmerman spared Treyvon's future victims. Trey-dad is a POS too. He was schooling his son to be a POS. Link. All this garbage about, "I guess you they can just gun us down for having Skittles while black!!!" is utter nonsense. The only injustice is the way they've persecuted an innocent man to satiate terroristic threats from a mob. You can be black and adopt a self destructive subculture identity to your heart's content, and no one will do anything but avoid you. Vicious physical attacks will get you dead. Teaching black youth that the system is stacked against them and that they're justified to lash out, will only get more of them dead. + 1M |
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Despite the race-baiters and shakedown artists trying to feed on this, the average person that looked at the evidence knows what happened. I agree with everything else you posted 100%, however, I have to take issue with your opening statement. I have absolutely zero faith that "average people know what happened" in the Zimmerman case. "Average people" engage in assumption, and they group-think whatever it is popular culture and the media tells them to. They prefer to emote rather than reason. From Twitter and Facebook postings it's perfectly clear that thousands... millions of "average people" seem to believe Zimmerman accosted Martin for being black and in his neighborhood, a pushing match started, and when Martin pushed back, Zimmerman just out and killed a "child" on an errand for Arizona ice tea and Skittles because he was black, and thought he could use Florida's Stand Your Ground laws to get away with it. And thousands, or millions, more of slightly "above average people" perhaps accept that Martin was beating Zimmerman, but are justifying it away by thinking that it was some sort of honorable "mano a mano" fight, perhaps with Queensbury rules, and that Zimmerman merely became the punk bitch, and shot Martin once he realized he was losing. And then there are the "well above average" people who are truly reprehensible, rather than merely emotional and misinformed. They know that Martin likely ambushed and beat Zimmerman savagely. They know that Zimmerman has a multi-racial family, was liked by his black neighbors, and mentored black teens, and continued to do it when the mentoring program ended. They know that Martin had a record of fighting, drug use, and possession of burglary tools. Things that would normally have given him a lengthy juvenile record, but for the fact the county and the school district was purposely not prosecuting these cases to better pad the race and crime statistics for the district. They know Martin had a large body of anecdotal and circumstantial social media/internet evidence of drug use, fighting, and even weapons, that he was purposely cultivating an appearance of "thug life" for his peers. They know enough urban black culture that the Arizona Watermelon punch and the Skittles is a popular mixer to make consuming an entire bottle of DXM cough syrup palatable for the purpose of getting high. They know that Martin was most likely engaged in a felonious life-threatening assault on Zimmerman when he was shot. And they don't care. They wanted Zimmerman convicted to score points in what they see as the larger games of race politics, anti-gun politics, and a subtext of liberalism vs. conservatism. That Zimmerman was acquitted was merely the silver lining in a much large storm cloud of how absolutely doomed America is with such a preponderance of both ignorance, and willful malice among what may well be a majority of it's citizens. |
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I'm having a problem with the people on "our side" of the nominal pro-CCW/RKBA/race-baiters can FOAD dichotomy in the Martin-Zimmerman debate Monday-morning quarter backing Zimmerman with all the varieties of the "Right verdict, but he was still an idiot" etc.
We weren't there EITHER. All we know is that Zimmerman "followed" Martin, (taking the character/racial evidence prima-facie, was not because Martin was black, but was skulking along like a thug...) while on the phone with 911, because invariably a static report has a cop driving by 15 minutes later after the suspicious person is long gone. Zimmerman calls 911, while in comparison, Martin does not call 911 to complain he's being followed, does not call his father to come out and meet him... he calls his girlfriend, perhaps to brag about the "creepy ass cracka" he's going to beat up in an expression of misunderstood urban youthful exuberance I guess... Everyone who will parrot the whole "MYOB, evade, don't-get-involved, de-escalate whenever possible" advice in the context of the Martin/Zimmerman case, or in general when it comes to CCW and self-defense is very likely to find themselves being a hypocrite if they examine everything else they believe. I am willing to bet that most of the pro-self-defense people who claim Zimmerman was stupid, made mistakes..., somewhere, somewhen will have voiced some other opinions about the "good old days when society didn't take this crap"... Maybe not in the exact context of someone skulking in the rain in a subdivision where most everyone drives, but in whatever other altercation or public situation we discuss in forums like this. It's a bet I'm sure I'd win more than I'd lose. We can't have it both ways. Perhaps I'm just more sympathetic to Zimmerman, because I can see how easily this really could be anyone who cares about his neighborhood, his home, and has a CCW... About three years ago, (before WI had CCW) late at night after just pulling in to our driveway with my wife and four grade-school age daughters, a drunk man let himself into our fenced and gated yard, tried to force his way into our home past my wife, yelling that our "Teenage son stole his beer." Best guess, he walked (staggered) to a nearby liquor store, and some teenager slyly offered to help carry his case of beer home, and then promptly ran off with it. And perhaps in his drunken mind, our house was the only one with the lights on and any activity, so that's where the beer thief went. As we confronted him, and got him out of our yard, he staggered away, and while I was on the phone with the WAPD 911 dispatch, I followed him 3-4 houses behind, and kept them appraised of his location and direction of travel. (911 seemed happy for the info, didn't "order" or "suggest" I stay away or anything like that...). The police cornered him, and took him away. Was I stupid? Did I do something "wrong"? Drunk or not, he tried to force his way into my home, and he was going to answer for it. If instead of being just a drunken sad-sack, if he'd turned around and rushed me, or ambushed me in the yards he was cutting through trying to lose my tail, and I don't know, had his hand around my throat, and it had been two years later, and I'd had my CCW and defended myself. And the race narrative been useful to the MSM... What if... what if.. what if... what if... |
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Zimmerman as slandered by the media is an idiot who is just lucky that he was not the one killed. Fixed it for you. Only Zimmerman knows what did and didn't happen, but if we are to believe his version of events, he was merely checking on a suspicious person, asking them what they're doing, then walking back to his vehicle when he got jumped. And based on Trayvon's wounds (or lack thereof, minus the fatal gunshot) Zimmerman wasn't even fighting back. He's going to get a big payday after his lawyers finish going after the media, and I hope he bankrupts them all for the obvious railroading and media lynching that followed. |
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Despite the race-baiters and shakedown artists trying to feed on this, the average person that looked at the evidence knows what happened. I agree with everything else you posted 100%, however, I have to take issue with your opening statement. I have absolutely zero faith that "average people know what happened" in the Zimmerman case. "Average people" engage in assumption, and they group-think whatever it is popular culture and the media tells them to. They prefer to emote rather than reason. From Twitter and Facebook postings it's perfectly clear that thousands... millions of "average people" seem to believe Zimmerman accosted Martin for being black and in his neighborhood, a pushing match started, and when Martin pushed back, Zimmerman just out and killed a "child" on an errand for Arizona ice tea and Skittles because he was black, and thought he could use Florida's Stand Your Ground laws to get away with it. And thousands, or millions, more of slightly "above average people" perhaps accept that Martin was beating Zimmerman, but are justifying it away by thinking that it was some sort of honorable "mano a mano" fight, perhaps with Queensbury rules, and that Zimmerman merely became the punk bitch, and shot Martin once he realized he was losing. And then there are the "well above average" people who are truly reprehensible, rather than merely emotional and misinformed. They know that Martin likely ambushed and beat Zimmerman savagely. They know that Zimmerman has a multi-racial family, was liked by his black neighbors, and mentored black teens, and continued to do it when the mentoring program ended. They know that Martin had a record of fighting, drug use, and possession of burglary tools. Things that would normally have given him a lengthy juvenile record, but for the fact the county and the school district was purposely not prosecuting these cases to better pad the race and crime statistics for the district. They know Martin had a large body of anecdotal and circumstantial social media/internet evidence of drug use, fighting, and even weapons, that he was purposely cultivating an appearance of "thug life" for his peers. They know enough urban black culture that the Arizona Watermelon punch and the Skittles is a popular mixer to make consuming an entire bottle of DXM cough syrup palatable for the purpose of getting high. They know that Martin was most likely engaged in a felonious life-threatening assault on Zimmerman when he was shot. And they don't care. They wanted Zimmerman convicted to score points in what they see as the larger games of race politics, anti-gun politics, and a subtext of liberalism vs. conservatism. That Zimmerman was acquitted was merely the silver lining in a much large storm cloud of how absolutely doomed America is with such a preponderance of both ignorance, and willful malice among what may well be a majority of it's citizens. I can't disagree with any of your analysis.
I tend to think that even the "Justice for Treyvon' crowd understand that Treyvon caused his own death, but are pimping the event as a convenient place to wedge their crowbar and ply their BS. IMO, very few people are truly mistaken on the subject. It's either willful ignorance or pure malice. |
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Only Zimmerman knows what did and didn't happen, but if we are to believe his version of events, he was merely checking on a suspicious person, asking them what they're doing, then walking back to his vehicle when he got jumped. And based on Trayvon's wounds (or lack thereof, minus the fatal gunshot) Zimmerman wasn't even fighting back.. The fact that Zimmerman was not fighting back makes him an idiot. He was confronting someone at night while not being prepared to use force except for his firearm. He escalated the situation and put himself in harm's way. Quoted:
If instead of being just a drunken sad-sack, if he'd turned around and rushed me, or ambushed me in the yards he was cutting through trying to lose my tail, and I don't know, had his hand around my throat, and it had been two years later, and I'd had my CCW and defended myself.... Or tried to defend yourself and failed.. All it takes is a single stab wound. Zimmerman is just lucky that Martin was not armed or that he did not disarm Zimmerman. It is only dumb luck that Zimmerman is alive to tell his story instead of the other way around. Quoted:
Drunk or not, he tried to force his way into my home, and he was going to answer for it. .. An essential difference here is that Martin had not committed any crime so far as Zimmerman knew. Martin was walking in Zimmerman's pissing ground and he did not like it. |
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Quoted: "Blah blah blah what if what if what if ITG ITG ITG what if what if blah blah blah mudslinging"Quoted: Only Zimmerman knows what did and didn't happen, but if we are to believe his version of events, he was merely checking on a suspicious person, asking them what they're doing, then walking back to his vehicle when he got jumped. And based on Trayvon's wounds (or lack thereof, minus the fatal gunshot) Zimmerman wasn't even fighting back.. The fact that Zimmerman was not fighting back makes him an idiot. He was confronting someone at night while not being prepared to use force except for his firearm. He escalated the situation and put himself in harm's way. Quoted: If instead of being just a drunken sad-sack, if he'd turned around and rushed me, or ambushed me in the yards he was cutting through trying to lose my tail, and I don't know, had his hand around my throat, and it had been two years later, and I'd had my CCW and defended myself.... Or tried to defend yourself and failed.. All it takes is a single stab wound. Zimmerman is just lucky that Martin was not armed or that he did not disarm Zimmerman. It is only dumb luck that Zimmerman is alive to tell his story instead of the other way around. Quoted: Drunk or not, he tried to force his way into my home, and he was going to answer for it. .. An essential difference here is that Martin had not committed any crime so far as Zimmerman knew. Martin was walking in Zimmerman's pissing ground and he did not like it. Did I get that about right? Does that summarize your position accurately? What crime did Zimmerman commit? Court case says "NONE". He had as much, if not more, right to be where he was. Also from the court case, there's no evidence (and you've seen it, you state "got his ass beat didn't fight back") Zimmerman ever hit Saint Tray Tray the Angelic. We need more people like Zimmerman and less people bloviating about what he shoulda done on the Internet.
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What crime did Zimmerman commit? Court case says "NONE". "Not guilty" does not mean "innocent".. He instigated the confrontation. He most certainly had no more right to be there than did Trayvon. Is that fact alone criminal? No. At the very least, he is still an idiot. If we are to be honest with ourselves and each other, he deserves some mud slung at him. The problem is that the black community is turning this into a race issue between them and all "whites". They are using this incident for their own agenda instead of also being honest that Treyvon was not some innocent little child. He was a thug who physically attacked someone just for following him.
People here are not willing to discuss how much a monumental screw up Zimmerman was on that night but instead are only interested in the same "them" against "us" that the blacks are interested in. Quoted:
We need more people like Zimmerman Bullshit. His biggest redeeming character is that he took an interest in his neighborhood. That is definitely something we need more people to do. What we need people to do however is to seek training and be competent if they are going to put themselves in these kind of situations. We do not need more people writing checks that their ass can not cash. |
Personally I think Zimmerman has been thrown under the bus, run over, and then backed over again just to make sure. He was screwed for life no matter the outcome, and no matter what he did or didn't do - because the media had an agenda, and it was lynching a white hispanic and dividing the country 
Notice how all the scandals aren't in the front page/leading news now? Media is still inciting the flames of hatred calling for action against Zimmerman to keep the circus going. Now if we want to put the blame where it is due: black racism killed Trayvon. But of course no one wants to touch that argument with a ten foot pole. Unless you're my African roomie from college who HATED thug culture in America. |
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The fact that Zimmerman was not fighting back makes him an idiot. He was confronting someone at night while not being prepared to use force except for his firearm. He escalated the situation and put himself in harm's way. What makes you think Zimmerman "confronted" Martin? If Zimmerman's story is accurate, he was in the process of "de-escalating" the situation by returning to his car, and was ambushed by Martin on his way back to his car. The veteran police detective believed him, forensic evidence corresponded exactly to his story, and the prosecution had over a year to gather evidence to disprove GZ 's account of the incident, and failed. What do you know that they don't? 
An essential difference here is that Martin had not committed any crime so far as Zimmerman knew.
Neither did Zimmerman. Following someone acting suspiciously is not "stalking", nor is it illegal. You do not have a right to attack someone following you, as many of Tray-Tray's supporters have claimed they'd do also. You have a right to defend yourself from that person if they attack you, but there's no evidence whatsoever that GZ attacked TM. Did he "profile" Martin? You're damned right he did. Again, that's not illegal. Political correctness bullshit aside, who wouldn't? Why shouldn't he be suspicous of a teenager skulking around a neighborhood where burglaries have occured recently, and after dark? The first illegal act committed in this incident was Trayvon punching GZ in the nose. That's the way I see it, and most importantly, that's the way the jury saw it. TM earned his bullet. 
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Quoted: Quoted: What crime did Zimmerman commit? Court case says "NONE". "Not guilty" does not mean "innocent".. He instigated the confrontation. Instigated bs. Whether Z kept an eye on him from the truck or outside the truck, they will cry "instigate" either way, crying profile. If you are doing shit that looks out the norm like wandering aimlessly and peering in windows, you should have the cops called on you. Can't fault Zim for that, or trying to keep eyes on the guy. |
| He "instigated it" really??? you mean it wasn't Martin who did by hiding for 4 minutes and jumping Zimmerman instead of going home, or was it when Martin broke his nose that Zimmerman instigated it, or maybe it was when Martin was on top of Zimmerman pummeling him with blows that Zimmerman instigated it? |
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Bullshit. His biggest redeeming character is that he took an interest in his neighborhood. That is definitely something we need more people to do. What we need people to do however is to seek training and be competent if they are going to put themselves in these kind of situations. We do not need more people writing checks that their ass can not cash. You say you are for constitutional carry. You say people should seek out training. I don't disagree people should seek out training. In your mind how does training fit together with constitutional carry? Barring the obvious, of course. But if there is Con. carry, people will often not seek training. |
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Instigated bs. Whether Z kept an eye on him from the truck or outside the truck, they will cry "instigate" either way, crying profile. If you are doing shit that looks out the norm like wandering aimlessly and peering in windows, you should have the cops called on you. Can't fault Zim for that, or trying to keep eyes on the guy. He exited the vehicle in an attempt to follow. He had no plan for what to do should he catch up to him. Quoted:
He "instigated it" really??? you mean it wasn't Martin who did by hiding for 4 minutes and jumping Zimmerman instead of going home, or was it when Martin broke his nose that Zimmerman instigated it, or maybe it was when Martin was on top of Zimmerman pummeling him with blows that Zimmerman instigated it? He did not instigate an attack, he instigated a confrontation which he was not prepared for. Quoted:
What makes you think Zimmerman "confronted" Martin? .... Following someone acting suspiciously is not "stalking", nor is it illegal. ...The first illegal act committed in this incident was Trayvon punching GZ in the nose. Zimmerman was trying to confront Martin when he got out of the vehicle to follow or he was too naive/ignorant to realize that there would be a confrontation should he catch up to Martin. I never said that Zimmerman did anything illegal by getting out of the truck and trying to follow Martin, I said that what he did was stupid, especially since he was not prepared for what could and/or did happen. Quoted:
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Bullshit. His biggest redeeming character is that he took an interest in his neighborhood. That is definitely something we need more people to do. What we need people to do however is to seek training and be competent if they are going to put themselves in these kind of situations. We do not need more people writing checks that their ass can not cash. You say you are for constitutional carry. You say people should seek out training. I don't disagree people should seek out training. In your mind how does training fit together with constitutional carry? Barring the obvious, of course. But if there is Con. carry, people will often not seek training. I am all for constitutional carry. I am not for mandatory training. I encourage people to seek out training on their own. Part of the training I recommend is open hand defensive training. I recommend that everyone have a plan for what to do if they are not privileged to use deadly force. Everyone should have sufficient skills to defend themselves against an assault which is not an imminent threat to their life. I mentioned Zimmerman putting himself in this situation. Another example would be someone walking outside with a gun because someone in walking around on their property trying to steal or just casing the place out. By doing this, they are putting themselves into the situation. It is legal to use force to defend property but not deadly force. They should be sufficiently trained/prepared to react if the other person punches them in the face or otherwise attacks them but deadly force is not warranted. |
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Is this thread about the protests here in WI, or about what you feel about the incident back in February 2012? The thread drift is strong in this one. I definitely did not see any protests on Lake Michigan or otherwise in Door County or around Green Bay yesterday... 
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Thought there hasn't been a verdict yet. Seriously? He was found not guilty last night... verdict came back shortly after 9pm. Not really a priority for me. Do you know who won the race at Sachsenring today? That's more important to me. Not a priority for me either... but it was all over TV & internet for the past 24 hrs. It was actually hard to avoid if you had a TV on. btw.... Marc Marquez ... on a Honda.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Didn't watch teh race yet. 
But, we shall reap what we sow. 
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He exited the vehicle in an attempt to follow. He had no plan for what to do should he catch up to him. Sure he had a plan, it was not to catch up. He was on the phone with 911, and was following a suspicous person on foot - at what he believed to be a safe distance - because he could not drive his truck in between the buildings where the suspicous person went to. His intentions were not to catch up to TM, just observe his actions and report them to 911. Evidence has shown he did NOT catch up to Martin... so his "plan" was working. It was TM who was "the wild card" and altered the plan, by attacking GZ as he went back to his truck. The shooting took place 30 yds from GZ's truck. That's a well documented fact. TM was staying at a condo owned by a friend of his father... 70 yards away in the opposite direction, and right near where GZ last saw him, another fact (that GZ did not know). GZ was on the phone with 911 until 4 minutes before the altercation which lead to the shooting, another fact. He told 911 he lost sight of TM, didn't know where he went, and was returning to his vehicle as suggested by 911 dispatcher and hung up, another fact. In those 4 minutes, GZ was walking back to his truck, AWAY from TM's last known location, another fact. There had yet to be any "confrontation", and GZ thought the whole incident was over... "suspect" was gone. TM followed GZ back to his truck and attacked him, so how is it that GZ "instigated" this confrontation, and TM did not? Your logic boggles my mind.
He did not instigate an attack, he instigated a confrontation which he was not prepared for.
How do you instigate a confrontation? Did GZ have every legal right to do what he did, and be where he was? Yes he did. Did he anticipate TM would attack him? I think not. He's not a LEO, therefore he has no obligation to "be prepared" for an unexpected violent confrontation other than calling 911 for help. That's not his job. He was doing what neighborhood watch people are supposed to do... observe at a safe distance and report their observations to police until police arrive. If TM had gone home, and not attacked GZ (the real "instigation" here) he'd still be alive. But thugs do what thugs do.
In hindsight, did GZ make a mistake by following on foot? Given the unexpected reaction and attack from TM, and the end result, the answer must be yes. But did it "instigate" a confrontation that resulted in a violent attack, and subsequent SD shooting? IMO... Hell no, that's solely on TM. Another point... Where is it written that neighborhood watch volunteers need to even be in a vehicle to start with? What's next, neighborhood watch must be in armored Humvees in squad strength? The whole theory behind neighborhood watch is that their mere presence, with cell-phones with 911 on speed dial, is supposed to deter crimes from occurring. That's why they organize and put up all those signs. AFAIK, attacks against neighborhood watch volunteers are rare. Didn't deter TM, and I doubt GZ anticipated that. |
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Thought there hasn't been a verdict yet. Seriously? He was found not guilty last night... verdict came back shortly after 9pm. Not really a priority for me. Do you know who won the race at Sachsenring today? That's more important to me. Not a priority for me either... but it was all over TV & internet for the past 24 hrs. It was actually hard to avoid if you had a TV on. btw.... Marc Marquez ... on a Honda.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Didn't watch teh race yet.
But, we shall reap what we sow. Sorry dude... didn't know it was rhetorical question.
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In hindsight, did GZ make a mistake by following on foot? Given the unexpected reaction and attack from TM, and the end result, the answer must be yes. But did it "instigate" a confrontation that resulted in a violent attack, and subsequent SD shooting? IMO... Hell no, that's solely on TM. Another point... Where is it written that neighborhood watch volunteers need to even be in a vehicle to start with? .... attacks against neighborhood watch volunteers are rare. Didn't deter TM, and I doubt GZ anticipated that. You are candy coating it. Yes Zimmerman boned up. He did not just observe and report, he pursued Trayvon in the dark. Zimmerman should have anticipated that following someone in the dark could elicit a negative reaction. He should take personal responsibility for his actions and the outcome, even if this is just in his own head. He should be trying to figure out what he could have done differently in order to reach a different outcome. I am not saying that he should somehow be prosecuted for what he did. I never said that or even suggested it. I never said that anything he did was illegal, only dumb. He holstered and carried a firearm in anticipation that he may someday need to use it and I am saying that anyone who does so should also seek out open hand and other defensive training in case they ever need to use it. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. You are far more likely to find yourself defending against a punch than you are an imminent threat to your life. Zimmerman was entirely unprepared for the violent confrontation he found himself in and deescalating it. Treyvon is responsible for his own death. He decided to violently attack Zimmerman. He paid the price for his stupidity. Zimmerman will pay a price for his action for the rest of his life. |
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He holstered and carried a firearm in anticipation that he may someday need to use it and I am saying that anyone who does so should also seek out open hand and other defensive training in case they ever need to use it. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. You are far more likely to find yourself defending against a punch than you are an imminent threat to your life. Zimmerman was entirely unprepared for the violent confrontation he found himself in and deescalating it. I could be wrong here, just my take on it, but I believe GZ was indeed taking SD classes, either at the time of the incident, or prior to it. One of the witnesses at the trial (identified as GZ's "trainer", indicating that GZ was taking hand to hand SD training) testified that GZ "did not yet know how to throw a puunch" and "GZ was no fighter". So was he "entirely" unprepared? Don't think so. Was he outmatched by an athletic teenage thug who dabbled in MMA, and "sucker punched" him in the face? Yes he was. Facts are TM was 3" taller than GZ, and 20lbs lighter. eta: not everyone is a fighter, and not everyone can be taught to fight. Sizes does not matter. I've seen guys 6' 5, 250lbs, who couldn't punch their way out of a paper bag. Toughest SOB I've ever met, a Chicago fireman I worked with, was only 5' 10, weighed maybe 165lbs. He was an amatuer "club" boxer, never defeated in the ring... yet he got cold-cocked in the back of the head with a house brick, by a 15yr old hood-rat, who then proceeded to stomp his ass pretty good. So trained or not trained, you never know. |
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. One of the witnesses at the trial (identified as GZ's "trainer", indicating that GZ was taking hand to hand SD training) testified that GZ "did not yet know how to throw a puunch" and "GZ was no fighter". So was he "entirely" unprepared? Don't think so. .... Your are actually helping make my point. According to your statement, Zimmerman was so inept that he could not even throw a punch even after taking self defense training and his only response is to curl up and yell like a school girl for help. He should have never left the truck. He put himself in harm's way and was entirely unprepared for it..
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. One of the witnesses at the trial (identified as GZ's "trainer", indicating that GZ was taking hand to hand SD training) testified that GZ "did not yet know how to throw a puunch" and "GZ was no fighter". So was he "entirely" unprepared? Don't think so. .... Your are actually helping make my point. According to your statement, Zimmerman was so inept that he could not even throw a punch even after taking self defense training and his only response is to curl up and yell like a school girl for help. He should have never left the truck. He put himself in harm's way and was entirely unprepared for it..
So by your logic, only "tough guys" should join neighborhood watches? btw... see the edit to my previous post. Trained or not, surprise attacks sometimes alter the equation. eta: Maybe he should've stayed in the truck, wuss that he is. Still doesn't mean he was the instigator to the confrontation just for being there. He has the same rights as TM had. |
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So by your logic, only "tough guys" should join neighborhood watches? Not at all. A man has to know his limitations. Neighborhood watch personnel are explicitly trained/instructed not to confront. They are instructed to leave that up to the police. There is a difference between observing a situation and putting yourself into it. He was following Trayvon with his vehicle. Of course Trayvon would evade someone creeping on him at night. Trayvon ran and Zimmerman then engaged in pursuit of the "suspect" according to his words on foot not thinking about what he may encounter. By his own statements, he was only thinking about not "letting these asshole get away" Quoted:
eta: Maybe he should've stayed in the truck, wuss that he is. Still doesn't mean he was the instigator to the confrontation just for being there. He has the same rights as TM had. This is not about "rights" or what is legal conduct. I believe that Zimmerman put himself in a situation which he was not prepared for. Zimmerman was described by the neighborhood watch coordinator as being "a little meek". He thought at the time that he was doing the right thing by giving chase, but he obviously did not think about the consequences of a confrontation. |
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So by your logic, only "tough guys" should join neighborhood watches? Not at all. A man has to know his limitations. Neighborhood watch personnel are explicitly trained/instructed not to confront. They are instructed to leave that up to the police. There is a difference between observing a situation and putting yourself into it. He was following Trayvon with his vehicle. Of course Trayvon would evade someone creeping on him at night. Trayvon ran and Zimmerman then engaged in pursuit of the "suspect" according to his words on foot not thinking about what he may encounter. By his own statements, he was only thinking about not "letting these asshole get away" Quoted:
eta: Maybe he should've stayed in the truck, wuss that he is. Still doesn't mean he was the instigator to the confrontation just for being there. He has the same rights as TM had. This is not about "rights" or what is legal conduct. I believe that Zimmerman put himself in a situation which he was not prepared for. Zimmerman was described by the neighborhood watch coordinator as being "a little meek". He thought at the time that he was doing the right thing by giving chase, but he obviously did not think about the consequences of a confrontation. Normally I'm in full agreement with your posts. But not this time. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, like grown ups. 
Again I disagree, and think it is about legal conduct and rights. My last comment on this is simply that GZ did nothing illegal, at least nothing that could be proven in a court of law, the highest standard we have. Stupid? Maybe, but that's a matter of opinion, not fact. Illegal? No, and that is fact. Being stupid doesn't mean your rights are forfeited. TM did do something illegal. He attacked GZ, the "creepy-ass-cracka" who was following him. A jury has looked at the evidence and determined GZ was defending himself against TM's vicious attack (I think pounding someone's head onto concrete qualifies as vicious, and life threatening... this wasn't two kids having a fistfight after school. ). That attack had no legal justification, even though GZ may have been following TM. Following someone is not a crime, unless there is a pattern established of one person following another particular person repeatedly... then it's called "stalking".
Last but not least, GZ was a volunteer, an ordinary citizen (and by all accounts a nice person) who was trying to make a differance in his community. That should be commended, not condemned. He has enough vengeful people condemning him, I won't pile on by calling him out as being stupid. I won't get into the argument of whether or not he should've been CCWing. He did so legally, he used his firearm legally. If he wasn't carrying it, there's a good likelyhood he'd be dead or seriously brain damaged. Nuff said there, nor do I think he was acting like a "vigilante". Done contributing to the hijack of the thread.
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Oh yeah, this was about protests. I didn't see any in Milwaukee either, though we'll see when I leave work today :) To say GZ "instigated" the confrontation is wwaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy off base. I bet 99.9997 times out of 100 it would be a call and report, with the person he's reporting on not running up in his face. But he got a shit deal on this one, it turned on him. Could he have seen this type situation occurring? With that non-emergency call GZ was on talking, it seems like it was over and done with, he tried, but given up and was going to wait for the police. I HOLD THE OPINION ON THAT FACT ALONE. I agree with Intercepter on most things too, but will have to agree to disagree on this one too (GZ being the instigator, bringing it on himself). More eyes and ears and involvement in the community is never a bad thing. |
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Again I disagree, and think it is about legal conduct and rights. My last comment on this is simply that GZ did nothing illegal,...... Being stupid doesn't mean your rights are forfeited. .. Quoted:
I agree with Intercepter on most things too, but will have to agree to disagree on this one too (GZ being the instigator, bringing it on himself). More eyes and ears and involvement in the community is never a bad thing. I agree that what he did was within his rights and what he did was legal. I am not debating this. I never said that his stupidity should cause his rights to be forfeited. I simply stated that what he did was stupid (pursuing a running man on foot) and that he was not trained nor otherwise prepared for what happened. If we disagree about this point, I concur that we can just agree to disagree ...
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If we disagree about this point, I concur that we can just agree to disagree ... Thank you. It's a pleasure to have an adult conversation, especially on the internet. I've always respected your opinions, as I do on this one. Don't agree here, but disagreement from time to time isn't a bad thing. It shows some diversity.
Now back to the original intent of the thread, about demonstrations or protests. I heard on Hannity's show that the Rev (and I use that term loosely) Al Sharpton has been organizing protest demonstrations in 100 cities across the U.S. for next Saturday. I'm sure Milwaukee & Madison will be involved, so it's not over yet. Also been reports of isolated attacks "for Trayvon" in several places. One in Baltimore, another in MS. In Baltimore, the victim was Hispanic male. In MS, adult white male. All attackers were young black men. |
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Well, guess it's not time to put away the Glock just yet then :( I guess not. If you don't have one, might be a good time to buy one.
The leftist media will just keep fanning the flames until an inferno erupts. CNN, & even more so MSNBC, have been at it non-stop for 48 hours... worse than post-Newtown. You'd think GZ is the devil himself, the way they're acting. They are acting like they WANT massive civil unrest & rioting, the way they are attempting to provoke people with distortions and lies. Their motives are probably for ratings, but riot coverage would be good for ratings too.  Betcha they already have names for it and the graphics made up.
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