Posted: 11/9/2004 2:04:24 AM EDT
| you guys with fab's, do you have a hard time loading up with the stripper clips....mines I could stuff in about 7rds before it jams up and not go anymore. |
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Be sure to call the Manufacturer if you do not get an answer here. They are very happy to talk with clients that are having problems. Their number is 775-246-3500. Respectfully, Patty McNary webmaster for www.fabten.com |
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i have had a similar experience with mine but what i've noticed is that when i apply more pressure and get the rounds moving faster down the stripper clip into the mag the last few rounds have enough momentum to make it in and not get caught up. Hey Lon_Moer, Can you post pics of your modified mag? |
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How new is your Fab 10? How are your stripper clips? If your clips are new and kinda tight then that could be your first problem. .223 rounds are kinda small and not so easy to shove into that Fab 10 mag with tight stripper clips. As for the Fab 10 mag, if it is brand spanking new (fewer than a few thousand rounds going through it), you're gonna have to break that puppy in. During my first Fab 10 build, I had all sorts of feeding and short stroking problems due to the mag being so new. I finally figured out how to break it in and it now works great. During my 2nd Fab 10 build, the first thing I did was to break in the mag and that build was soooo smooth, I had absolutely no issues with it. What to do: Load up some ammo on stripper clips (5 - 10 clips worth). With just the lower (easier if it was just the bare lower with the mag and the pistol grip), use the feeding block thing and try your best to shove all 10 rounds into the mag. During the first tries, this will be very hard to do and you may end up loading them one at a time into the mag. Once the mag is fully loaded, leave it like that for a couple of days. Now, get something like a UMT tool and strip each round off the mag and into a box/bucket quickly from the rear of the receiver, simulating how a bolt would strip off each round, shoving it into the chamber. You can even use a pen or something plastic. Just move it forward from the back of the mag, stripping off single rounds at a time. Use the loading block, load 10 more rounds from the next clip and repeat (reload the rounds on the clips when necessary). Do this a couple of dozen times a day for about a week. When done for the day, leave the mag loaded with 10 rounds to compress the mag spring. After about a week or so, you'll start noticing wear marks (even actual wear) on the feed lips of the mag. You'll also notice that shoving the 10 rounds into the clip and stripping them off gets easier and easier. This is good, as you have just broken in the mag and the clips. Now, go to the range and shot it. My two rifles now load and shoot 10 rounds flawlessly. Good luck. tk |
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hmm i keep getting failure to feed problems and i have about 500 rnds through it. has anyone else had this problem? pull the charging handle and load a round. bam. bam. bam. ba...shit one in the breech and one right behind it jammed between the bolt and the top of the upper. wtf? |
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Absofuckinglutoley ridiculous, LUDACRIS CRAP$#%! And all because they wanted to save some coin and use already existing forged receiver blanks. Much easier to cut the anti-tilt legs off the followers to get 10-round capacity.  Do yourself a favor and make it a reliable 6-shot by replacing it with a USGI green follower. Save the headache and your poor jammed up, unreliable rifle. Pisses me off how Mike @ ShoeLess Ventures STILL denies they have a problem. Every time you call them they say "nope, never heard of that" even though I've talked to him for hours about this issue as have others. SV is a shiester company and the second someone comes out with a better CA-legal lower I'm trashing my POS. On the flip-side if they ever fess up and actually correct their problem and put out a better lower I'll buy two. That probably won't happen until someone takes away their monopoly on the CA legal AR-15 market. They're just going to ride their overpriced $300 POS and go on ripping off California citizens until someone forces them to change. |
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From what Michael [of Shoeless Ventures] conveyed to me was that your upper was configured wrong and that was the problem with your misfirering. However I do not have your rifle here, nor did you agree to send it in. I do think it's important to note that ShoeLess Ventures [manufacturers of the FAB 10] typically bends over backwards to help people with problems. With that stated we [ShoeLess Ventures] will be conducting seminars through out the state of California. We will be in San Franscio next week end [Nov 20/21] and LA the following week end. If you want to come out, see and shoot an AR 15 with a FAB 10 lower and see just how well it works, we would be happy to accomodate you. Best wishes, Patty McNary webmaster for www.fabten.com [email protected] |
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The rivet was blocking the follower from going down completely on mine. Either remove the rivet or file down the front of the follower to make the space. I've only used the stripper clip guides made from the USGI guides cut down with a metal rod welded to the back. The plastic ones seem cheap to me so I don't use em. |
Umm, Wyv3rn's right.. That reciever is poorly made, costs 3 times more than a decent REAL lower would (Although REAL lowers arn't allowed here) and he's profiting on our misfortunes by screwing Californians with outrageous prices and low quality on his neutered lower reciever. When I've called him, he's full of bullshit excuses. (He loves to blame the upper, standard retort) Note this, I'm a Range Officer, and, every Fab10 I've seen at my range suffered FTF's and jams galore. I've spent way too much time helping shooters clear a jam out of the Fab10. I wish SV would just MAN UP and fix his stuff and sell it at a price comparable to "normal" recievers on the market or a Company like Bushmaster, Armalite, Rock River, or DPMS would come in and present a viable alternative to the Fab10. I hate bashing a manufacturer like this, but, the truth is the truth. |
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Well I am sorry for your trouble but from my experience and I have seen many rounds fired [too many to count] The FAB 10 works perfectly. I agree the price is too high but I can guarantee Michael and Carole have never earned a dime from this business. The new bolt catch feature has really helped with loading as well. Best wishes, Patty |
Well...the product may not be that great, but at least it appears the customer service is. There are one too many companies out there who will automatically place blame on someone else and retaliate with rude comments. What i'm seeing is a very polite attempt to remedy the problem. If i lived in CA, I'd give em a shot. However, i don't live in CA and would never own such a monstrosity when standard AR's are legal here. Now if only FAB coudl work the bugs out...... |
My first build had those exact problems. The round getting stuck in the upper gets all dented up from the bolt carrier too. Clearing it, bam, bam, jam, then clearing that one, bam, jam. Damn!! To make it worse, there's no bolt catch, so it was sooooo hard to clear these blasted jams. It's hard to keep the muzzle pointed down range when dancing with the rifle trying to clear these jams. I did everything I thought I could (as a complete amateur) to fix it, new gas rings, gas tube. I kept getting jams. I even put the barrel on a brand spanking new upper (on my list of things to do anyways, as I really didn't like my old upper, which I suspected was out of spec). I worked on that lower for a while, filing/polishing this and that down. I mostly worked on the firing group because my first lower gave me more hammer to bolt carrier pressure when the safety was on. In between that time, I started my magazine break-in procedure. I sat in front of the TV for hours everyday stripping rounds off the mag and reloading it. I did this for two weeks, until I gave up with my "tweaking" and replaced all my filed/polished parts with brand new parts (went too far and got a chain fire). Then at the range with 300 rounds of XM193, everything ran perfectly. At that time it could have been the mag break-in, new upper, or the new lower parts that solved it, but I think the mag break-in was the ticket. When I received my 2nd Fab receiver (for my carbine build), the first thing I did was break in the mag for one or two weeks. I had no issues what-so-ever with this build. In fact, I can now run Wolf Ammo (which has a little less oomff than XM193 that supposedly can facilitate short stroking) with both of these rifles and it loads/shoots 10 rounds every time. I have yet to have another jam since my first build. But I hear you. Jamming every other round sucks ass. tk |
pattymcn, you seem like a nice person and I have nothing against you. I am sorry that you have taken it upon yourself to be the go-between. It's not your responsibility and getting yourself caught up in Michael's business troubles is only going to stress you out unnecessarily. I do apologize for being brutal in my post. The blutness comes from deep frusteration with SV and his product. But not a thing I said was untrue. I was really hoping Michael would be receptive to fixes but he is not. He won't even recognize publicly that his product has a problem. The only reason I am blatant on this board is precisely because I HAVE EXHAUSTED all means of fixing this with SV. I am the kind of person who tries to resolve a problem with the manufacturer BEFORE talking about it on the internet. I currently have a problem with a pair of <1yr old Danner boots but I'm not going to say a word about it in public until I've exhausted my means of fixing the problem with them. I seriously doubt Michael even remembers me. He's probably refering to one of the MANY others who call him with the same problem. I keep in touch with MANY other people who have FAB-10's and the same problem. Some call him, some don't. The last time I delt with him was over a year ago. It has NOTHING to do with my upper. He tried to blame it at first but eventually fessed up and we had a 3-way call with some other guy who is supposedly closer to the manufacturing process. It was fruitless because fixing the problem would cost too much for SV. I will never "send it in" because I already know what the problem is and he cannot remedy it without sending me an updated version of his lower. It cannot be fixed without a bigger magazine well that will accomidate a full-size USGI follower. This would require a CUSTOM AR-receiver blank which would cost much more than any old AR-receiver blank. I'm not interested in getting my lower "tweaked" to work when the planets align, I want the root of the problem fixed. Anything less is not good enough. Now you might tweak it to "work fine" for shooting from a bench after you sit there and work it in for hours, keep it perfectly clean and generously lubed (hard to keep it clean then!). But the anti-tilt legs are REQUIRED if you want absolutoley 100% function ALL the time, not just under ideal conditions. This is why anti-tilt legs were ADDED to USGI specifications YEARS AGO, because they EXPERIENCED FEEDING PROBLEMS in anything but ideal conditions. The followers were replaced with current-day-design USGI green followers and NO MORE problems. The problem is very easy to CONSISTENTLY RECREATE with the FAB-10. Those without a FAB-10 can recreate the problem by cutting the anti-tilt legs off your follower in your magazine. The mechanics are not hard to understand and to say it is my upper (which runs flawlessly btw) insults my intelligence. Anyone having feed problems with the FAB-10: Replace the follower with a full-size USGI green follower. You'll be limited to 6-shots but you'll never have the rear-of-round-stuck-down problem again. Put your cut-down follower back in and watch the problems come back immediately. NOW tell me it's not the FAB-10's problem. |
This post is right on the money. Regarding the part highlighted in red though: Fixing the problem requires a new AR-receiver blank of non-standard size ($$$$). There's no way he could fix the problem and offer the receiver at the same price as other manufacturers. But he CAN and SHOULD do one of the two. I wouldn't mind the $300 price tag if it worked 100% of the time. And it is true that the retailers can mark up the receiver to whatever they want. But I happen to know an FFL quite well who buys FAB-10's directly from SV and I can tell you it still costs him OVER $200 directly from SV for the current production model. |
hmm Thanks for the advice, but how is excersizing the follower spring going to reduce bam, bam, jam? not trying to be an ass I just dont see how it will help. |
It helps to smooth out small burs in the follower and inside of the magazine well. It wears it in a little and allows the spring/follower & rounds to travel with less chance of getting caught & tilting enough to jam. It does "work" but it's not a real fix, your margin of reliability is thin. |
This is true, but I don't see myself picking up my Fab10 when Zombies come to life and decide to munch on me and my tribe. Seriously, no one is going to use this rifle as a SHTF rifle. I'm just happy that the two Fab10 rifles I have work with the cheapest ammo I can find (Wolf) without jamming every other round, at the range. And I'm even happier to see clays/pumpkins/lemons, etc getting all blown to pieces when hit with said rifles. After all, that's what it's all about, right? To those who've had problems, I'm really sorry to hear about them, because I know exactly how that's like, especially getting the rolleyes treatment after telling the person who was supposed to help me (in my case, it was the store I purchased the lower from) that I built the rifle. Good luck. tk |
where can I get one?? |
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Patty, Not sure if you can post this info on the FAB10 website or not but I would recommend having a list of uppers tested with the FAB10. Last night I bought the lower with the new bolt catch on it and now am shopping for an upper. I do know at times it is hard to get a hold of Michael and feel this info would be beneficial to new buyers. Right now I am looking that the JT kit but am still looking at other products. Any suggestions? |
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Hello, we are just steps away from having this info more readily available. I'm sorry for your inconvience. If you send me an email privately - I'll be sure you get taken care of ASAP. Patty [email protected] |
Fair enough! I'm very ticked off with him right now as well. I organized this shoot at Chabot's Firering range and at the last minute he cancels it. Thank you though for being nice to me. I am or at least was trying! I hope all the best to you. Patty PS In Michael's defense he does remember you. You made quite an impression on him! 
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wtf? i sent you an email on the form on your website and it didnt work it said "php scripts cannot be run on this page". Then i copied an pasted the email into my email client and it worked just fine. only That was sunday and I havent heard back from you. I also sent you one about three months ago asking about the bam, bam, jam problem and I never heard back from you then either. does anyone check the mail? Is anyone working on the bam, bam, jam problem? Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:11:38 -0800 (PST) From: "xxx" <[email protected]> View Contact Details Subject: thumb grip To: [email protected] is the atf apprived (thumb) grip legal in california? if so can i get a real lower? i already have a fab ten but would like detachable mags. let me know Thanks |
Hey! She's the WEBMASTER! Not the quality control girl. Call the people at Shoeless if you have a problem. She's been trying to relay the info but they can't be bothered. It's not her problem. CALL the shoeless people. |
Would hate to have everyone see a whole line of rifles jamming up with the same problem, probably wouldn't help sales at the booth.  gotodengo, lay off the lady she's got NOTHING to do with it. I've already given you the straight shit about it. Contact Michael and have him tweak it or fix it yourself, it's easy to take apart and put back together. The rivet is 3/32" and pop-rivet tools are available under $40. Drill out the existing rivet with a 3/32" bit. |
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Patty, you might want to pass onto Michael there is a CHEAP way of fixing this. Change the design to mill out the magwell and pin/spot weld a 10-round magazine (the unmodifiable Bushmaster 10 rounder would be ideal for this) in there instead of cutting one off. This is NOT illegal because it is NOT an AR15 by name and it's still a fixed magazine by DOJ definitions. You'll still be able to use cheap standard AR15 lower receiver blanks. Spend the $100 to consult with a lawyer that's familiar with CA gun laws and bring him a little material on how the AR15 functions and REQUIRES a magazine catch (and thus a milling machine w/ this lower) in order for a detachable magazine to even work. If he'd roll this out I'm in for ATLEAST one. |
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wtf? i sent you an email on the form on your website and it didnt work it said "php scripts cannot be run on this page". Then i copied an pasted the email into my email client and it worked just fine. only That was sunday and I havent heard back from you. I also sent you one about three months ago asking about the bam, bam, jam problem and I never heard back from you then either. does anyone check the mail? Is anyone working on the bam, bam, jam problem? I did seem to miss this. Thanks too for the heads up with the form. I'll see what that's all about. The email has worked fine up until the day before yesterday. From then until this morning when I think I have it back working it wouldn't let me respond because of my virus protection. Very big problem. Michael and Carole refuse to get email so I do check the email often. You could have emailed the two weeks I was in Montana and they had someone else answering email OR I could have missed it. If so I'm sorry please email me again and I'll fax it to Michael. Patty |
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Change the design to mill out the magwell and pin/spot weld a 10-round magazine (the unmodifiable Bushmaster 10 rounder would be ideal for this) in there instead of cutting one off. This is NOT illegal because it is NOT an AR15 by name and it's still a fixed magazine by DOJ definitions. You'll still be able to use cheap standard AR15 lower receiver blanks. I will forward this on. Patty |
Thanks for the support Schizrade. I appreciate it. I will fix the form though [that at least is something I can do! and Forward the info to Micheal, it's in his court after that! Gee - I think I better go back to training dogs. They're so much more dependable! Patty McNary Webmaster |
AND, it will look cooler too. h=85% Quoted:
Thanks for the support Schizrade. I appreciate it. I will fix the form though [that at least is something I can do! and Forward the info to Micheal, it's in his court after that! Gee - I think I better go back to training dogs. They're so much more dependable! Patty McNary Webmaster Hey I do websites as well and when I get complaints about a crappy basketball schedule or a probelm with a lunch menu I get so irate. I just make the site and put what is asked for on it. I do not care if the lunch menu says pasta and they serve cups of mayonaise. I just [post what they tell me to. |
Too funny! Not to overly rag on my clients BUT these guys inability to join the new millinium [no computer, I have to fax them everything] and their inability to make decisions drive me nuts! In the words of Richard Nixon "It's time to poop or get off the pot Mr. President." Patty |
wtf. im glad patty is here to "help out" but it seems there is a real problem with the fab ten that no one wants to address. so can we get some assurance that someone will look into this. doesnt sound ike it. |
haha good luck! you hit it right on the head.. we've BEEN trying. |
THAT, is a quote worthy of sigline status!
| Forgot one problem - during the "breaking in" period the rivet holding the magazine broke off because of magazine "play" and the follower hitting it. Even relocating it wouldn't fix the problem, unless the magazine had a small "L" bracket welded onto it from the front to the underside and riveted from the bottom. |
I would imagine that would fall under the warranty. Patty |
It did. I sent it back. They put in a new pop-rivet. 100 rds later it's broken again. Not worth the time and effort anymore. |
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hmm just cycled my mag about 200 times and it still likes to have the follower get cocked. does anyone know if you can remove the mag and replace it with another that wont get cocked? After doing this for a few hours aside from sore fingers it is readily apparent that the mag is in fact the problem. i sure would like shoeless at least comment on this and maybe offer some help. patty can you foreward this to them and try to get an answer. thx |
um thats the problem I DID. I went to their webpage and sent two emails and have never heard back. Im not blaming patty but since i have tried to contact them and not had any luck i just figured she would have more luck. as you can see below she does say "I'll be sure you get taken care of ASAP." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted: Hello, we are just steps away from having this info more readily available. I'm sorry for your inconvience. If you send me an email privately - I'll be sure you get taken care of ASAP. Patty [email protected] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- wtf? i sent you an email on the form on your website and it didnt work it said "php scripts cannot be run on this page". Then i copied an pasted the email into my email client and it worked just fine. only That was sunday and I havent heard back from you. I also sent you one about three months ago asking about the bam, bam, jam problem and I never heard back from you then either. does anyone check the mail? Is anyone working on the bam, bam, jam problem? Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:11:38 -0800 (PST) From: "xxx" <[email protected]> View Contact Details Subject: thumb grip To: [email protected] is the atf apprived (thumb) grip legal in california? if so can i get a real lower? i already have a fab ten but would like detachable mags. let me know Thanks |
They have email problems. From my conversations with Michael, Patty gets the emails and she is in Oregon. In order for Michael to get them they need to be faxed or mailed to him, because he doedn't know anything about computers and doesn't feel the need to change that. I've found that a 1 month lag time from email to response is about right, so I've stopped sending them. |
If it is, it would only be legal to put onto a registered 1989 - 2000 receiver. you can not get a real AR receiver in this state. |