Posted: 5/18/2012 6:38:48 AM EDT
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Do You keep records of who you sell too? I've always been afraid of this type of thing so I keep detailed records of each transaction. Never the less, I'm sure DHS is just following the trail of the gun. Let us know what happens. No, i will from now on though. |
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Maybe the firearm in question wound up in the hands of a BATFE agent and was used in one of their gunrunning schemes!  Haha. I asked him why BATFE wasnt the one asking the questions. He said that since it was found overseas it was a customs issue Did not sell anything to sabre defense did you? |
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Maybe the firearm in question wound up in the hands of a BATFE agent and was used in one of their gunrunning schemes! Haha. I asked him why BATFE wasnt the one asking the questions. He said that since it was found overseas it was a customs issue Did not sell anything to sabre defense did you? Nope |
| Don't worry, I witnessed DHS interview a perfectly healthy 18 year old that threatened to blow up Social Security Office for not sending his check (our money) to him on time. He admitted to the terroristic threat to the agents and was not arrested. To make matters worse, SSA wouldn't even cancel his benefits. DHS is a worthless joke of an organization. I would tell them to go pound sand.......you don't have to talk to them. |
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This is why i DON'T do bill of sale or keep records of FTF transactions. I know I 'd lose track or not do it one time or another and it would make me look suspicious. I have never bought or sold anything to anybody that was questionable, mostly HTF members. There is obviously email/IM records of most of it but that's it.
In my opinion, once you start keeping records like a FFL would, you open yourself to scrutiny if one is incorrect, lost, questionable etc. The law is pretty clear on firearms transfers and I try to abide by it, no more, no less. |
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"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' " - President Ronald Reagan
Hah! DHS is a bunch o' clowns.....I should know, I work for DHS...........wait...........did I just call myself a clown.........OK, not everyone who works for DHS is a clown..............just most of 'em.......... |
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This is why i DON'T do bill of sale or keep records of FTF transactions. I know I 'd lose track or not do it one time or another and it would make me look suspicious. I have never bought or sold anything to anybody that was questionable, mostly HTF members. There is obviously email/IM records of most of it but that's it. In my opinion, once you start keeping records like a FFL would, you open yourself to scrutiny if one is incorrect, lost, questionable etc. The law is pretty clear on firearms transfers and I try to abide by it, no more, no less. I agree with this concept. |
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"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' " - President Ronald Reagan Hah! DHS is a bunch o' clowns.....I should know, I work for DHS...........wait...........did I just call myself a clown.........OK, not everyone who works for DHS is a clown..............just most of 'em.......... Sorry Shep, wasn't directed toward you. Just one of my experiences. I have some family that works for DHS and they are pretty squared away. Guess I got really bent out of shape about these two agents not charging someone who threatened to blow up a building that was built with my tax dollars AND being told my tax dollars would continue to support the scumbag. Oh well, I guess it is our politically correct society. To the OP, I don't think the agent is after you. Think he is trying to track down all buyers to determine how the weapons left the country. |
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Do You keep records of who you sell too? I do on automobiles and guns. There was a situation a few years ago where a copy of a bill of sale kept me from having to go to court. I guess if you got luck, time and money on your side then go the paperless route and take your chances. As for me, I choose the safe route...I've got way too much on the table to just take a chance on being dragged into court for any one of many ridiculous reasons resulting from a sale of something that was either transferred or assigned to me, that I can no longer account for. |
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I've never understood why people think they would be better off not having records of who they sold a firearm too. Maybe someone can fill me in...
Law states: Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector. [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30] So how do you "know or have reasonable cause to believe" that the person can own the firearm if you don't at least ask for a GA DL or a GWL etc...? |
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This is why i DON'T do bill of sale or keep records of FTF transactions. I know I 'd lose track or not do it one time or another and it would make me look suspicious. I have never bought or sold anything to anybody that was questionable, mostly HTF members. There is obviously email/IM records of most of it but that's it. In my opinion, once you start keeping records like a FFL would, you open yourself to scrutiny if one is incorrect, lost, questionable etc. The law is pretty clear on firearms transfers and I try to abide by it, no more, no less. I agree with this concept. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Do You keep records of who you sell too? I've always been afraid of this type of thing so I keep detailed records of each transaction. Never the less, I'm sure DHS is just following the trail of the gun. Let us know what happens. No, i will from now on though. Why? You are not legally required to do so. All you have to say is I don't remember who I sold it to or when, but I follow all state laws when I sell to a state resident who is over 21 and I have no reasonable suspicion that they are or have committed a felony...thank you and have a nice day. |
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I was wondering - we do not have gun registration. How would they now you owned the gun? The 4473 is kept at the dealer unless he closes shop and send all his 4473s to BATF. He told me that they called the manufacturer and gave them the serial #, the manufacturer then told them what dealer it was shipped to. They then contact that dealer who pulls the 4473,,,, and then you find who bought it |
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I was wondering - we do not have gun registration. How would they now you owned the gun? The 4473 is kept at the dealer unless he closes shop and send all his 4473s to BATF. I have heard of crime guns being tracked back to the FFL. Local PD or FBI goes to ATF with serial number, and then the manufacturer provides them with the dealer or distributor that it was sold to. I honestly don't have a problem with this. Since you can buy and sell guns FTF legally without transfers, it would be impossible for them to slap something on you arbitrarily. On the other hand, if something does happen with a gun you sold, you can cooperate and help put a bad guy in jail. There needs to be a little fuzziness in there to protect your privacy. I don't think any of us would withhold info or act belligerent if something we had at on time was used in a crime. No different than if we sold a car to a drunk driver. |
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So how do you "know or have reasonable cause to believe" that the person can own the firearm if you don't at least ask for a GA DL or a GWL etc...? You don't have to know that. The quoted text just says you cannot know that they are a prohibited person. That is not the same thing. |
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I've never understood why people think they would be better off not having records of who they sold a firearm too. Maybe someone can fill me in... Law states: Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector. [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30] So how do you "know or have reasonable cause to believe" that the person can own the firearm if you don't at least ask for a GA DL or a GWL etc...? I can usually can tell by the fact that they're not in prison when I sell it to them. I don't need to look at anything else, nor do I care to, it's none of my business. You're either a free man or you're not, fuck all that other dumb shit. |
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In my state, we are not required to keep any records of what we've sold. As long as they're not known felons and are residents of the state, we're good to go for ftf sales.
That's all that's required for legal sales between private parties, and that's the way it should be. I do not require bill of sales for weapons I sell, and I won't buy one if the seller is requiring one. There is absolutely nothing DHS can do other than ask you if you have any information. Az |
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Not committing a felony is only one thing that would preclude someone from owning a firearm. Besides, how do you know that some dude that responded to your ad on the internet isn't a felon? Because he didn't *look* like one.
Reminds me of a guy a knew in college... Him: "hooked up with a hot girl last night" Me: "Nice, you use a rubber?" Him: "Nah, she looked clean..." Me:   "Well, I guess you'll find out"
Don't get me wrong. I realize it's not the end of the world if you don't get a bill of sale and try to determine the legitimacy of the person you are selling to, but seems it's somewhat responsible to do just that. I don't buy that you are creating a standard of care as I've seen posted before. Seems at minimum it could be argued that it is irresponsible or possibly even negligent. It's my opinion that it will be this type of thing that gives the anti's what they need to further reduce our rights. I'm sure most, if not all here, would agree that guns in the hands of criminals is a bad thing. Bottom line, do what you're comfortable with and think is in line with the law. I'm not trying to argue, just see the other point of view. Q: Are there certain persons who cannot legally receive or possess firearms and/or ammunition?
Yes, a person who — Has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year; Is a fugitive from justice; Is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance; Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution; Is an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or an alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa; Has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions; Having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his or her citizenship; Is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner; or Has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence Cannot lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm. A person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year cannot lawfully receive a firearm. Such person may continue to lawfully possess firearms obtained prior to the indictment or information. [18 U.S.C. 922(g) and (n), 27 CFR 478.32] |
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So how do you "know or have reasonable cause to believe" that the person can own the firearm if you don't at least ask for a GA DL or a GWL etc...? You don't have to know that. The quoted text just says you cannot know that they are a prohibited person. That is not the same thing. Are you saying it doesn't say you have to see a GA DL or GWL? If so, I agree, even thought seeing the GWL would certainly not give you "reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possesing firearms.." (Which is from quoted text) Here: Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector. [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30] |
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this reminds me of when I was in Iraq in 05, I found a Glock 19. I told you not to take that thing home. One of the Iraqi police drop it? Seems I recall that the Iraqi cops got P95s. They got a wide variety of pistols. The ones in south Baghdad tried to trade their Glock 17s for my Beretta M9 assuming that I would have the better weapon. I would have done it but I do not think it would have gone over well with the supply system! |
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this reminds me of when I was in Iraq in 05, I found a Glock 19. I told you not to take that thing home. One of the Iraqi police drop it? Seems I recall that the Iraqi cops got P95s. They got a wide variety of pistols. The ones in south Baghdad tried to trade their Glock 17s for my Beretta M9 assuming that I would have the better weapon. I would have done it but I do not think it would have gone over well with the supply system! Yeah, where me and Telsonman were they had Glock 19's. |
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"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' " - President Ronald Reagan Hah! DHS is a bunch o' clowns.....I should know, I work for DHS...........wait...........did I just call myself a clown.........OK, not everyone who works for DHS is a clown..............just most of 'em.......... Think it really depends on which part of DHS. |