Posted: 5/10/2011 7:15:28 PM EDT
Is it legal for my Girlfriend to carry in this god forsaken state???? It really pisses me of that I even have to ask a question like this....
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I recommend the "Kimber Pepper Blaster 2" shaped similar to a little handgun including sights, it packs two separate blasts at 90mph propelled by pyrotechnic charges ( not aerosol ) of .10% OC the strongest allowed for civilians max range is 13'. I purchased mine at a shop outside of Albany. I would say this seems to be the best Less Lethal option available in NYS.
http://www.kimberamerica.com/pepperblaster |
Hopefully she is 18....
Adjudicated mental defectives are also prohibited. My reservation about the Pepperblaster is this: it expels a projectile with the force of an explosion, a pyrotechnic device...some may call this a firearm not to be carried without a license. |
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Only a fully licensed firearms dealer or pharmacist is permitted to sell pepper spray in New york State, and before a purchase can be finalized the buyer must sign a form with your name, address, birth date and signature that affirms they are 18 years or older and have no felony convictions,. No more than two self-defense spray devices may be sold at any one time to a single purchaser and must be pocket size –
New York State Penal law 265.20 14a |
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Quoted: Only a fully licensed firearms dealer or pharmacist is permitted to sell pepper spray in New york State, and before a purchase can be finalized the buyer must sign a form with your name, address, birth date and signature that affirms they are 18 years or older and have no felony convictions,. No more than two self-defense spray devices may be sold at any one time to a single purchaser and must be pocket size – New York State Penal law 265.20 14a Not saying you're wrong, but I know for a fact that my Gander mtn has fogger sized, dog the bounty hunter sized thigh holster type cans. lol |
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Quoted: Only a fully licensed firearms dealer or pharmacist is permitted to sell pepper spray in New york State, and before a purchase can be finalized the buyer must sign a form with your name, address, birth date and signature that affirms they are 18 years or older and have no felony convictions,. No more than two self-defense spray devices may be sold at any one time to a single purchaser and must be pocket size – New York State Penal law 265.20 14a I've bought Fox Labs pepper spray online for my sister-in-law, girlfriend, and other lady friend and had it shipped to my door no problem (think I bought it off one of those police supply stores BTW) as Christmas presents. Curious if that law applies to purchases from out of state? Oh well, they have their pepper spray, my GF also carries around her Kershaw Blur all the time too
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I recommend the "Kimber Pepper Blaster 2" shaped similar to a little handgun including sights, it packs two separate blasts at 90mph propelled by pyrotechnic charges ( not aerosol ) of .10% OC the strongest allowed for civilians max range is 13'. I purchased mine at a shop outside of Albany. I would say this seems to be the best Less Lethal option available in NYS. http://www.kimberamerica.com/pepperblaster Thats not NY legal. edit: You'll want to look at NY CRR Title 10 Part 54 http://w3.health.state.ny.us/dbspace/NYCRR10.nsf/56cf2e25d626f9f785256538006c3ed7/8525652c00680c3e8525652b005f481f?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,54 NYCRR 54.2. Under definitions :Camouflaged device ( canister cannot look like anything other than an OC can) 54.3(a) Every self defense spray can only contain OC ( not mixed with CS, CN, etc ) 54.3(b) Total OC strength of contents allowed is .7% 54.3 (c) net weight of device shall not exceed .75 oz. 54.3 ( f) Canister cannot be camouflaged Now, the spec sheet for that is differentiating between the capsaicinoids and the OC. The capsaicinoids per centage falls within the NYS limits..not sure how they are differentiating between capsaicinoids and OC; to me they are one and the same. The weight of the unit http://www.pepperblaster.com/ under "specs" and the fact that it doesn't look like an OC canister as required by state law still leads me to believe its illegal. Quoted:
Not saying you're wrong, but I know for a fact that my Gander mtn has fogger sized, dog the bounty hunter sized thigh holster type cans. lol Then your GM is not in compliance with NYS law. New York State Penal Law Exemption of Weapons Law §265. Sale of "self-defense spray device" Section §265.20 14. Possession in accordance with the provisions of this paragraph of a self-defense spray device as defined herein for the protection of a person or property and use of such self-defense spray device under circumstances which would justify the use of physical force pursuant to article thirty-five of this chapter. (a) As used in this section "self-defense spray device" shall mean a pocket sized spray device which contains and releases a chemical or organic substance which is intended to produce temporary physical discomfort or disability through being vaporized or otherwise dispensed in the air or any like device containing pepper or similar disabling agent. (b) The exemption under this paragraph shall not apply to a person who: (i) is less than eighteen years of age; or (ii) has been previously convicted in this state of a felony or any assault; or (iii) has been convicted of a crime outside the state of New York which if committed in New York would constitute a felony or any assault crime. (c) The department of health, with the cooperation of the division of criminal justice services and the superintendent of state police, shall develop standards and promulgate regulations regarding the type of self- defense spray device which may lawfully be purchased, possessed and used pursuant to this paragraph. The regulations shall include a requirement that every self-defense spray device which may be lawfully purchased, possessed or used pursuant to this paragraph have a label which states: "WARNING: The use of this substance or device for any purpose other than self-defense is a criminal offense under the law. The contents are dangerous - use with care. This device shall not be sold by anyone other than a licensed or authorized dealer. Possession of this device by any person under the age of eighteen or by anyone who has been convicted of a felony or assault is illegal." 15. Possession and sale of a self-defense spray device as defined in paragraph fourteen of this subdivision by a dealer in firearms licensed pursuant to section 400.00 of this chapter, a pharmacist licensed pursuant to article one hundred thirty-seven of the education law or by such other vendor as may be authorized and approved by the superintendent of state police. (a) Every self-defense spray device shall be accompanied by an insert or inserts which include directions for use, first aid information, safety and storage information and which shall also contain a toll free telephone number for the purpose of allowing any purchaser to call and receive additional information regarding the availability of local courses in self-defense training and safety in the use of a self-defense spray device. (b) Before delivering a self-defense spray device to any person, the licensed or authorized dealer shall require proof of age and a sworn statement on a form approved by the superintendent of state police that such person has not been convicted of a felony or any crime involving an assault. Such forms shall be forwarded to the division of state police at such intervals as directed by the superintendent of state police. Absent any such direction the forms shall be maintained on the premises of the vendor and shall be open at all reasonable hours for inspection by any peace officer or police officer, acting pursuant to his or her special duties. No more than two self-defense spray devices may be sold at any one time to a single purchaser. |
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1) Camouflaged:
Camouflaged means designed to have the appearance of an object other than a self-defense spray device.
N.Y. Comp. Codes R. & Regs. tit. 10, § 54.2 Doesn't say "OC can," this provision is meant to prohibit things actively disguised to look like something other than a defensive weapon, the OC pager for example. This is a tough sell. 2) Net weight: "Net weight" doesn't refer to the whole object, it refers to the liquid contents of the OC device: (b) Net weight means the weight of the contents of a self-defense spray device. N.Y. Comp. Codes R. & Regs. tit. 10, § 54.2 3) Percent concentration: Percent concentration of a liquid solution is calculated by dividing the mass of the solute by the mass of the solvent, where the solvent is water where 1 cubic centimeter (1mL) = 1gram the expression is generally 1 gram of solute/100mL of water = 1% solution. Where the entire solution weighs 21.26grams (.75oz) where, X/.7=21.26/100 .7(21.26)/100=X, X=.15g water=21.11g or 21mL of water. 100/21 = 4.7619 4.76x.15g= .714g in 100mL = .7% Is there something off about the advertising then? Is 10% OC spray marketed as such just because it would be confusing to drop it down an order of magnitude? Here is an MSDS for a .2% Spray:http://www.pepperspraysetc.com/msds/MK-3-5039-First-Defense.pdf Here is the product: http://www.pepperspraysetc.com/defense-technology-mk-3-dt5039.html Company claims products available from .2%-1.3% MC. In any event, the only products available with .75oz of agent or less are the keychain versions....which makes just about every other canister too large to be legal. |
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With regards to the Kimber Pepper Blasater
I do not agree with you if you read the law including the definitions it is clearly within the requirements set by law in NYS Quoted: Thats not NY legal. tc556 Respectfully sir you have to fully read the law as written. 54.2 Definitions (b) The contents of every self-defense spray device weightshall not contain more than 0.7% by weight total capsaicinoids. Kimber Pepper Balster Specs Capsaicinoids ..................................... 2.4% 54.2 Definitions.(c) The net weight of every self-defense spray device weight shall not exceed 0.75 ounces. (b) Net weight means the weight of the contents of a self- defense spray device. Kimber Pepper Blaster Specs contents Volume per charge .............................. 0.21 fluid ounce (6 ml) tc556 - the fact that it doesn't look like an OC canister as required by state law still leads me to believe its illegal. 54.2 Definitions (a) Camouflaged means designed to have the appearance of an object other than a self-defense spray device. No where does NYCRR 54.2 specify it has to look like a canister. It is not camouflaged it is clearly marked and marketed as a self-defense product and has all disclaimers required by law. |
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54.2 Definitions (b) The contents of every self-defense spray device shall not contain more than 0.7% by weight total capsaicinoids. Kimber Pepper Balster Specs. Capsaicinoids ..................................... 2.4% x 2 = 4.8% total for two blasts Concentration doesn't change by volume. Like I said above (and I really don't know how the OC spray companies calculate the "10%" or "5.5%" or whatever else they claim) but concentration of a solution expressed in % equates to 1gram of solute in 100mL of solvent such that 1gr in 100mL = 1% and 2g in 200mL= 1% assuming your solvent is water...they use some other things but from the MSDS sheets I understand that this is basically water we are talking about. |
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1) Camouflaged: Camouflaged means designed to have the appearance of an object other than a self-defense spray device.
N.Y. Comp. Codes R. & Regs. tit. 10, § 54.2 Doesn't say "OC can," this provision is meant to prohibit things actively disguised to look like something other than a defensive weapon, the OC pager for example. This is a tough sell. I don't think the OC pager qualifies. Of course, theer are a ton of OC devices out there that clearly are camouflaged devices..flashlights and the like that dispense OC that would fall under the definition of camouflaged. 2) Net weight: "Net weight" doesn't refer to the whole object, it refers to the liquid contents of the OC device:
Yeah, I understand that. The law breaking it down into seperate weights of OC and capsecoids is what I've always found confusing. To me, the OC IS the capsecoids. I don't know why they list it seperately in their ad, even after your post. Maybe I didn't make that clear. In any event, the only products available with .75oz of agent or less are the keychain versions....which makes just about every other canister too large to be legal.
That was my point earlier. The only thing I can think of is that the OC pager gun thing from Kimber apparently uses two canisters? Each canister seperately may fall under the state size limit..I'd have to go back and recheck the link..but since its legal to buy two at a time, they may be considering that "two" cansiters when you buy one unit..but that sure would be confusing at check out time when you fill out teh required paperwork. I also don't see how GM is legally selling the "bear spray". As for the comments about what is or is not a camouflaged device...maybe the Kimber unit is a loophole. Most people when they think of an OC product think of a canister. Other than that you have the various kubotan/ flashlight, etc delivery systems that are on the market and those definitely would fall under the rule.. |
| Im only stating the facts i do know about since i do work for a gunshop and this is whats posted in our shop from ATF - and personally GM ( Gander ) is a high price non gunsmith area and if it is true about them selling anything bigger then a pocket size sucks for them if ATF/NYSP show up |
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Would it be considered less force than a punching or kicking someone? 
If people can't answer that in civilian arena how about LE arena? Department policy will generally dictate where its placed in the force continuum. Its generally placed along with tasers fairly low on the force continuum. Generally somewhere around..above or below, depending on the agency.... going hands DT-type techniques on with someone. |
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I also don't see how GM is legally selling the "bear spray". As for the comments about what is or is not a camouflaged device...maybe the Kimber unit is a loophole. Most people when they think of an OC product think of a canister. Other than that you have the various kubotan/ flashlight, etc delivery systems that are on the market and those definitely would fall under the rule.. Bear Spray is not classified as a self-defense spray in NY, and can therefore be sold. Not only can it be sold, it doesn't require sale by a pharmacist or FFL. You can order bear and dog spray online and have it shipped right to your door in NY, by the same companies who will not ship self-defense spray to NY. I should note that using Bear spray on a person would most likely land you in hot water. |
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I also don't see how GM is legally selling the "bear spray". As for the comments about what is or is not a camouflaged device...maybe the Kimber unit is a loophole. Most people when they think of an OC product think of a canister. Other than that you have the various kubotan/ flashlight, etc delivery systems that are on the market and those definitely would fall under the rule.. Bear Spray is not classified as a self-defense spray in NY, and can therefore be sold. Not only can it be sold, it doesn't require sale by a pharmacist or FFL. You can order bear and dog spray online and have it shipped right to your door in NY, by the same companies who will not ship self-defense spray to NY. I should note that using Bear spray on a person would most likely land you in hot water. I agree with the first part of what you said but disagree with the second part of what you said. In my opinion the means that you use once you are justified in defending yourself or another are arbitrary(as long as the item in question isn't illegal in and of itself). IMHO For instance if you see someone about to be raped at knife point and you run down the assailant with your car killing them = justified. Someone attempts to kidnap you while walking on a bridge, and in your defense you throw them off the bridge to their death = justified. Guy attacks you with a knife you hit him in the head with a brick, he dies=justified. I could go on and on all day with this but it's pointless the point is you are entitled to kill people in your defense or defense of others in certain situations and you're justified. Spraying someone with bear spray when you're justified is no more worse than killing someone with a brick or a knife or anything else... Before someone brings up the retreat provision and says... "but it says you have to retreat". That is a standard based around your mental state at the time of the incident... that you "know" you can safely retreat. If you're being attacked it's seems very unlikely that you would know you could safely retreat unless the guy is trying to attack you with a knife and you're 30 feet away in a car that's running and you can just drive away... Again this is just my opinion and not meant to be taken as legal advice. |
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I also don't see how GM is legally selling the "bear spray". As for the comments about what is or is not a camouflaged device...maybe the Kimber unit is a loophole. Most people when they think of an OC product think of a canister. Other than that you have the various kubotan/ flashlight, etc delivery systems that are on the market and those definitely would fall under the rule.. Bear Spray is not classified as a self-defense spray in NY, and can therefore be sold. Not only can it be sold, it doesn't require sale by a pharmacist or FFL. You can order bear and dog spray online and have it shipped right to your door in NY, by the same companies who will not ship self-defense spray to NY. I should note that using Bear spray on a person would most likely land you in hot water. I agree with the first part of what you said but disagree with the second part of what you said. In my opinion the means that you use once you are justified in defending yourself or another are arbitrary(as long as the item in question isn't illegal in and of itself). IMHO For instance if you see someone about to be raped at knife point and you run down the assailant with your car killing them = justified. Someone attempts to kidnap you while walking on a bridge, and in your defense you throw them off the bridge to their death = justified. Guy attacks you with a knife you hit him in the head with a brick, he dies=justified. I could go on and on all day with this but it's pointless the point is you are entitled to kill people in your defense or defense of others in certain situations and you're justified. Spraying someone with bear spray when you're justified is no more worse than killing someone with a brick or a knife or anything else... Before someone brings up the retreat provision and says... "but it says you have to retreat". That is a standard based around your mental state at the time of the incident... that you "know" you can safely retreat. If you're being attacked it's seems very unlikely that you would know you could safely retreat unless the guy is trying to attack you with a knife and you're 30 feet away in a car that's running and you can just drive away... Again this is just my opinion and not meant to be taken as legal advice. This is NY. Trust me when I tell you that just because you are justified doesn't mean that they won't still put you through the wringer. |
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Do I still have to get my SCUBA license? I saw it on the list of available permits but no one at RoMo knew how to get one... http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRHj2I4wnBAhi3ltooqgGMg2xkri_kbqh8mewGjpw4dFuzviIz-qA
I definitely posted that in the wrong thread.... |
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Only a fully licensed firearms dealer or pharmacist is permitted to sell pepper spray in New york State, and before a purchase can be finalized the buyer must sign a form with your name, address, birth date and signature that affirms they are 18 years or older and have no felony convictions,. No more than two self-defense spray devices may be sold at any one time to a single purchaser and must be pocket size – New York State Penal law 265.20 14a I've bought Fox Labs pepper spray online for my sister-in-law, girlfriend, and other lady friend and had it shipped to my door no problem (think I bought it off one of those police supply stores BTW) as Christmas presents. Curious if that law applies to purchases from out of state? Oh well, they have their pepper spray, my GF also carries around her Kershaw Blur all the time too your technically not good acccording to the law. Now how hard is it to deface a can of foxlabs or whatever to the point where you can no longer make out the type and strength of the product as a result of every day carry and getting scratched dropped rubbed against concreter sandpaper etc. ehh shit happens and then what are they going to do to? but is it kosher, no... |
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Bear Spray is not classified as a self-defense spray in NY, and can therefore be sold. Not only can it be sold, it doesn't require sale by a pharmacist or FFL. You can order bear and dog spray online and have it shipped right to your door in NY, by the same companies who will not ship self-defense spray to NY. I should note that using Bear spray on a person would most likely land you in hot water. Thats crazy, because its exactly the same stuff. More potent, but the exact same stuff. |
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I also don't see how GM is legally selling the "bear spray". As for the comments about what is or is not a camouflaged device...maybe the Kimber unit is a loophole. Most people when they think of an OC product think of a canister. Other than that you have the various kubotan/ flashlight, etc delivery systems that are on the market and those definitely would fall under the rule.. Bear Spray is not classified as a self-defense spray in NY, and can therefore be sold. Not only can it be sold, it doesn't require sale by a pharmacist or FFL. You can order bear and dog spray online and have it shipped right to your door in NY, by the same companies who will not ship self-defense spray to NY. I should note that using Bear spray on a person would most likely land you in hot water. But land the assailant in something hot other than water! 
I think I need to pick up some "bear spray" for the vehicles for our frequent trips to the Adirondacks......  |