Posted: 3/8/2002 4:17:23 AM EDT
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Also posted this in rifles/uppers and barrels forum. Today I put an SP1 on lay away. I would like to know the vintage of this weapon though so here's a description. Lower receiver, no fence around the mag release. Colt pony logo, marked AR15 below that SP1. And below that .223 rem and the serial no which is 100xx. The upper receiver has the light profile barrel, markings C M bore. No twistrate on the barrel. Upper has NO forward assist. The flashhider is of the 6slot birdcage variety, dealer told me this was one there originally when I asked if that flashhider was a replacement part(expecting a three prong on there). The bolt carrier has a C mark on the right side just below the carrier key, and has the sawtooth for the forward assist already. Weapon is in mint condition, previous owner shot very little with it and sold it to my shopowner at the age of 73. Did I mention the original scope comes with this weapon? |
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About 1968. www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/ar15serial.html I'm surprised it has an A1 flash. I have seen 11000 serial numbers with the 3 prong. The twist is 1/12, as are all SP1s. I own 2 from 1964 that have the 3 prong flash and chromed bolt. The finish on them isn't very nice though, they look almost painted, and they have yellowed somewhat from age. I wish I knew what I could safely use to clean them up without damaging the finish. It is sure a pleasure owning an AR that old though. |
I get a certain thrill out of owning and shooting AR15s that are older than I am. Especially seeing as they are "the original". I have no idea what they're worth, they are 4 digit serial numbers. number 8XX just went for $2200 on auction arms and number 3xx went for $4400 on Gun Broker. |
| The oldest AR15 I ever saw and held was a select fire one...Colt/Armalite stamp on the lower. Green furniture with three prong hider. Three digit serial number. Supposedly one of the very few of the prototypes send to the Netherlands for trial. A trial finally lost to the FN-FAL...if only... |
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Nice catch kuiper! I hope it turns out to be what you expect. btw. E. van Veen not long ago received a batch of original M16A1's straight from Vietnam (oorlogsbuit wapen). Recently I handled and fired one (which had a newly installed original Colt barrel) and the the state it was in was so-so, but it is fun to shoot an original! It had a round cone-shaped frontsight and the diopter had two small peepholes. Besides that there were several subtle differences with the modern AR's and SP's. Maybe that's something you might be interested in as well? The rifles have been modified to semi, however....making it a little less original again.... Good luck, RG.nl |
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Naturely. Anyway, I thought I'd mention it anyway. The collector who owned the rifle I fired also said that v. Veen sells the uppers seperately as well, if I remember correctly. He also has/had M14's from the same source. Just out of curiosity, how much does the dealer want for it? Sounds like a good catch. Cheers, RG.nl |
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Hows the finish match on the upper and lower, it almost sounds like the complete upper has been changed. The birdcage flash hider isn’t usally seen until the 1973-74 production era, same for the bolt carrier. The barrel marking are even latter than that time frame. Here the marking of a 1973 barrel. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid25/p961cfc1792fee1ad03056759224c9f06/fde09024.jpg Here a 1974. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid25/pca72ce6fb4cc1964926547efffb103b7/fde09025.jpg If an SP1 with a serial number in the 300’s brought over $4000 what’s this one worth? http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid25/pbcb88753617750d3d488ba0912c385cc/fde09027.jpg |
Both upper and lower receiver are matched perfectly. About the birdcage...1967-1968 was the turnaround year with the introduction of the M16A1. Chromed bores and chambers and the new birdcage sixslot hider(you know this, I don't need to reeducate you  ).With my SP1 being from late '67, early '68. Birdcage hiders are very likely to have been mixed in with some threeprong hiders. |
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First let me say my suspicion of the non-originality of your rifle may just be an error on your part. You state the following above. “The upper receiver has the light profile barrel, markings C M bore.” More precisely the marking of the barrel with the word “bore”. The common marking of chrome lined barrel is “C MP Chrome Bore”. I’m not sure if you omitted the word chrome from your description or if it doesn’t exist. I am also unsure if the word “bore” is really marked on your barrel. For arguments sake I assume the word bore does appear. From this marking we will have to assume the barrel has a chrome lined chamber, denoted by the “C” marking, and chromed bore, denoted by the “bore” marking. Here is were my suspicions arise from. On May 26, 1967 the chrome-plated chamber, not bore, was approved for production. Although I have no data to back up my assertion, I would guess the new barrel took some time to get into production. In this time frame, 67-68, Colt’s barrel production was unable to keep up with US military contracts. I would find it highly unlikely that the new military barrel would find its way into civilian SP1 production. My observations of SP-1’s from that era concur. Now if you say you barrel bore is chromed lined, this present a bigger obstacle to the barrel being from 1967-68. The military use of chrome bores started in the 1971-72 time frame. I don’t start see these in SP1’s until the late 70’s. These points combined with the bolt carrier and flash hidder, which I don’t see in SP1’s until the early 70’s, all combine to convince me the upper is not original. Now if you barrel is only chrome chambered I would be more inclined to believe it’s original. Although I find it hard to believe that Colt would use all their newest parts in a civilian rifle at the height of the Vietnam War. |
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Hi Kuiper, I gather you have purchased the weapon? If so, you could post some pics to clear up the confusion. Anyway, have fun with it, the SP1 is a nice little rifle, one of most versatile AR-configs IMO (although 1135 Euro is a bit steep, even for a mint SP1. They used to go for about 500 less on average last year). Cheers, RG.nl btw, maybe this info on rec.guns can be of help www.recguns.com/IIID2b123.html edited to include the url. |
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Don_Francis, Haven't got acces the weapon at this time, it's still on the shelf with the dealer. But I will get pics of it ASAP since I am starting to doubt my own judgement. Will have a look at it soon and report back. Thanks for your input so far, I appreciate it. RG, The sight is the original 3x20, and yes the price is steep. But it seems everything is after the introduction of the Reichsmark...ehmm I mean Euro. |
| Don’t doubt yourself too much. I am not an expert or even a collector of Colt AR-15’s. I qualify myself as a poor student of the model. Your description just didn’t fit what I normally find. The more you look at Colt’s the more you become convinced there is no norm. To cloud the issue even more I’ll tell you of another SP1 similar to yours. Some years ago I was attending the Allentown, Pennsylvania, Forks of the Delaware guns show. At this show was dealer who was offering for sale a number of Colt AR-15 variants all chambered for the .222 Rem. cartridge. While I had seen Colt’s in this caliber before, all had been of the same model, similar to the R-6500, he had several and each was a different variant. I inquired as to were he had found them. His story, for which he had documentation, was that a friend of his was a financial backer of Colt. The friend had made a large loan to the cash strapped company. In return he was allowed to go to the factory and purchase what firearms he wanted. The dealer then point out to me a Colt SP1 sitting near the .222 rifles. The rifle had the appearance of a late 1970’s early 80’s SP1. The rifle look mint except for a large gash in the buttstock . The dealer explained that the rifle had been used by a Colt Vice President as a door stop, at the factory. I examined the rifle and was surprised when I noted the serial number SP00232. This would indicate 1964 production. Here in is the problem, the rifle was assembled from parts that were of much latter production than 1964. It had the bird cage suppressor, chrome lined bore, A1 style buttstock, notched bolt carrier, all fire control parts were of much later manufacture, all this and the finish of the parts matched . It also had documentation showing it had just come from the factory. So I for one will never tell anyone that their Colt is positively not in the configuration it left the factory in. I try to look for patterns in the production, but as you see they don’t always hold true. |
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Okay, promised a while back I'd get back to the date issue of this weapon. No pics, but here's the heads up. Barrel is marked C MP CHROME BORE, A1 flashhider Serial number SP1008XX, see that's where I SNAFU'd. And lead to misdating the weapon about 10 years. Seems it's a late seventies model. Buttstock is A1 type with trapdoor and drainhole. Color of lower and upper match 100% Makes no difference to me though, I'll be getting a "classic" looking AR15 with the advantages of the chromed chamber and barrel. p.s. Don Francis, you were right to have doubts. 
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