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Posted: 5/23/2024 9:25:16 PM EDT
The text on the website detailing the purity of the 158 steel, as well as the forging of the bolt, are missing. Where changes made in the production of this item?
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They also removed some of the text saying the super duty rifles have handguards made from 7000 series Aluminum. I assume it is an over sight.
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I came to post this exact question! Primary Arms has a great sale on REBCGs today, and I jumped on it. Then I saw the updated text on the Geissele website, and was very confused. Also very disheartened if the bolts have been upgraded in some way and I'm actually buying old stock. :(
Originally Posted By call_me_ski:They also removed some of the text saying the super duty rifles have handguards made from 7000 series Aluminum. I assume it is an over sight. View Quote Also hoping they didn't change the handguards back to 6000-series. I want to buy a few Mk8 rails due to the 7000-series aluminum being used, but can't afford them right now. |
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The rail descriptions on their website still say 7000 series.
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Tagged
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Looks like a change. If you click on just the bolt component the specs now say
Bolt Material: Carpenter 465 |
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@gacs @sagmill
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The plot thickens. I contacted Geissele on Friday prior to posting in this thread, and here's the response I got this morning:
Thank you for contacting us and for your business. Everything on the shelves should still be the original Carpenter 158+. Moving forward, we are considering switching to using a non-forged bolt that will not be made from 158+. Instead it will be standard mil-spec Carpenter 158. We found that for our Super Duty’s, the mil-spec manufacturing process is fine to stand up to rugged use, and this helps alleviate bottlenecks in production. Our bolts will still be Nanoweapons coated. I hope this information is helpful, please let me know if I can be of further assistance. View Quote I asked in my first email about the C465/300M steel specs listed on the website, and the above didn't really answer that, so I asked for clarification. However, reading between the lines, I think all the C158+ stuff was removed on purpose, and the weird steel designations are a mistake that somehow got added when updating the stressproof bolt description. |
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Originally Posted By bigfatOTMs: The plot thickens. I contacted Geissele on Friday prior to posting in this thread, and here's the response I got this morning: I asked in my first email about the C465/300M steel specs listed on the website, and the above didn't really answer that, so I asked for clarification. However, reading between the lines, I think all the C158+ stuff was removed on purpose, and the weird steel designations are a mistake that somehow got added when updating the stressproof bolt description. View Quote Welp, glad to know thats the case. The reason I've been pushing for G super duty rifles where I work is because of the extra that went into the bolts. If all they're going to be is a standard mil-spec setup with a fancy coating, I'll stick with sionics NP3 for my stuff, and a cheaper rifle for work. Major bummer. |
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Originally Posted By Marksman14: Welp, glad to know thats the case. The reason I've been pushing for G super duty rifles where I work is because of the extra that went into the bolts. If all they're going to be is a standard mil-spec setup with a fancy coating, I'll stick with sionics NP3 for my stuff, and a cheaper rifle for work. Major bummer. View Quote ETA: part of my reasoning for this is Geissele's tight tolerances. I built a 10.3" AR using Geissele's 10.3" barrel during the short period they had a .063 gas port. Used a G gas block, G upper, REBCG, & Super 42/H3. It's awesome suppressed, but it still runs unsuppressed with 5.56 ammo if I drop to a carbine buffer and spring. My 12.5" home brew super duty is a G barrel, G gas block, BRT .0635 (.0615 gas port equivalent), G tabbed upper, REBCG, & Super 42/H2. It runs like that without the suppressor even in the 30's during winter with 5.56 ammo. I just built a spare parts gun (all new parts). BCM upper, Spike's CHF pencil 11.5" barrel, G Mk14 rail, random gas block, Spike's BCG, BRT .065 (.063 gas port equivalent) & carbine buffer and spring. It is single shot. So, I opened the gas tube to .067 (.065 equivalent) and tested it this weekend. Still single shot. Pulled the REBCG from my 12.5" and put it in. Ran like I expected! So, I ordered another REBCG. |
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Originally Posted By Marksman14: Welp, glad to know thats the case. The reason I've been pushing for G super duty rifles where I work is because of the extra that went into the bolts. If all they're going to be is a standard mil-spec setup with a fancy coating, I'll stick with sionics NP3 for my stuff, and a cheaper rifle for work. Major bummer. View Quote Yep. Its a package deal for me. With the bolt changes I’m out. |
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Muh Bolt
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Originally Posted By Marksman14: Welp, glad to know thats the case. The reason I've been pushing for G super duty rifles where I work is because of the extra that went into the bolts. If all they're going to be is a standard mil-spec setup with a fancy coating, I'll stick with sionics NP3 for my stuff, and a cheaper rifle for work. Major bummer. View Quote Agreed. Glad I got them when I did. I encouraged them to keep producing the REBCG as-is, even if just as a standalone/aftermarket accessory, but I'm just a dude, so who knows. |
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Originally Posted By Marksman14: Welp, glad to know thats the case. The reason I've been pushing for G super duty rifles where I work is because of the extra that went into the bolts. If all they're going to be is a standard mil-spec setup with a fancy coating, I'll stick with sionics NP3 for my stuff, and a cheaper rifle for work. Major bummer. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Marksman14: Originally Posted By DreadPirateMoyer: The plot thickens. I contacted Geissele on Friday prior to posting in this thread, and here's the response I got this morning: I asked in my first email about the C465/300M steel specs listed on the website, and the above didn't really answer that, so I asked for clarification. However, reading between the lines, I think all the C158+ stuff was removed on purpose, and the weird steel designations are a mistake that somehow got added when updating the stressproof bolt description. Welp, glad to know thats the case. The reason I've been pushing for G super duty rifles where I work is because of the extra that went into the bolts. If all they're going to be is a standard mil-spec setup with a fancy coating, I'll stick with sionics NP3 for my stuff, and a cheaper rifle for work. Major bummer. Yep. A major plus for me was the stronger bolt. |
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This all makes me want to order a bunch of Mk8s in case they decide to go back to 6000-series aluminum someday.
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Originally Posted By bigfatOTMs: This all makes me want to order a bunch of Mk8s in case they decide to go back to 6000-series aluminum someday. View Quote Great Marketing...make sure you buy it today we might cheapen and totally change what the product is know for tomorrow, all while using the cope of it maybe it will be financially cheaper since they cheapened the process. Wouldn't be the 1st time unfortunately. |
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So we haven't heared from G yet on this thread to confirm or deny anything, but can't we hold off on any criticism until we have a broken Geissele bolt of any flavor on our hands?
I can't help but wonder if Geisseles testing with the improved 6 ARC bolt showed little to no failure rate even with the reduced bolt strength that they figured using the same process on a stronger 5.56 bolt is redundant. All theorycraft, but I still suggest waiting for a broken bolt before we fire up the torches. |
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Robert Muldoon Survived.
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The rebcg is the main reason I bought three Geissele SDs and a URGI. If you switch to a basic bolt, that kills my desire for another one. The bolt is the weakest link in an AR-15 and isn't strong enough for the gun, especially given the shorter platforms.
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Originally Posted By cnoteleo: The rebcg is the main reason I bought three Geissele SDs and a URGI. If you switch to a basic bolt, that kills my desire for another one. The bolt is the weakest link in an AR-15 and isn't strong enough for the gun, especially given the shorter platforms. View Quote Well, if you have three SDs and a URGI you already have the juiced up BCG and 6 generations worth of lasting rifles. I honestly don't see any reports on 5.56 broken bolts anymore with quality rifles. BCM uses a standard bolt, so does colt. How many BCM and Colt bolts have you read about broken in the past year? I don't think this is anything to worry about it either way, but it would be awesome to hear from thr big G on this one. |
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Robert Muldoon Survived.
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Originally Posted By campower: Well, if you have three SDs and a URGI you already have the juiced up BCG and 6 generations worth of lasting rifles. I honestly don't see any reports on 5.56 broken bolts anymore with quality rifles. BCM uses a standard bolt, so does colt. How many BCM and Colt bolts have you read about broken in the past year? I don't think this is anything to worry about it either way, but it would be awesome to hear from thr big G on this one. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By campower: Originally Posted By cnoteleo: The rebcg is the main reason I bought three Geissele SDs and a URGI. If you switch to a basic bolt, that kills my desire for another one. The bolt is the weakest link in an AR-15 and isn't strong enough for the gun, especially given the shorter platforms. Well, if you have three SDs and a URGI you already have the juiced up BCG and 6 generations worth of lasting rifles. I honestly don't see any reports on 5.56 broken bolts anymore with quality rifles. BCM uses a standard bolt, so does colt. How many BCM and Colt bolts have you read about broken in the past year? I don't think this is anything to worry about it either way, but it would be awesome to hear from thr big G on this one. Broken bolts happen. When you run suppressed short barrels it happens more often. I broke an LMT bolt in a 10.5 at around 7-8k. Having an "upgraded" bolt in the G's is a nice bonus and a piece of mind. |
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@gacs @sagmill
I know you've already been tagged, but trying again. Can you confirm the information I got in the email yesterday? Text is posted above. |
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Forged c158+ steel bolt is a pretty major and proven feature. I can’t say I’ve read a single case of a broken Geissele forged bolt. With 6 ARC I think this would be even more important to not change this bolt if they have found it works well in trials.
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Originally Posted By stickyheat: Forged c158+ steel bolt is a pretty major and proven feature. I can’t say I’ve read a single case of a broken Geissele forged bolt. With 6 ARC I think this would be even more important to not change this bolt if they have found it works well in trials. View Quote We are adding in billet bolts along with forged bolts to our lineup. I would rather keep everything forged but to be honest a forged bolt is overkill for a standard AR as long as it is heat treated/processed in our special way. Billet will still exceed 40,000 rounds on our tester which is a lifetime. We proved this by the BP rifle which went through exhaustive, high cycle round testing with billet bolts that held up as good as the forged ones. We were way ahead in accuracy and reliability in testing: "it wasn't even close" we were told. That being said GFR 5.56/6Arc/22Arc is forged and we have plans to offer a forged bolt on any gun that will come with a billet. Also on the REBCG. |
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In a world where legislation could ban semi-automatic rifles and the parts. We need the strongest bolts possible.
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Originally Posted By sagmill: We are adding in billet bolts along with forged bolts to our lineup. I would rather keep everything forged but to be honest a forged bolt is overkill for a standard AR as long as it is heat treated/processed in our special way. Billet will still exceed 40,000 rounds on our tester which is a lifetime. We proved this by the BP rifle which went through exhaustive, high cycle round testing with billet bolts that held up as good as the forged ones. We were way ahead in accuracy and reliability in testing: "it wasn't even close" we were told. That being said GFR 5.56/6Arc/22Arc is forged and we have plans to offer a forged bolt on any gun that will come with a billet. Also on the REBCG. View Quote Nice! To confirm:
Is that right? If so, great news and no complaints here! |
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What will be the difference in the GFR and SD in 5.56?
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Originally Posted By bigfatOTMs: Nice! To confirm:
Is that right? If so, great news and no complaints here! View Quote You would be correct on all accounts. We are working with our web team to reevaluate the website to make updates accordingly. As we get more information on this process I will be happy to update the thread. |
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Originally Posted By GACS: You would be correct on all accounts. We are working with our web team to reevaluate the website to make updates accordingly. As we get more information on this process I will be happy to update the thread. View Quote Awesome. Thanks so much for your (and Steve's) help. Happy ending for all of us! |
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Originally Posted By cnoteleo: What will be the difference in the GFR and SD in 5.56? View Quote I know it's relatively vague, but think about our 6mm ARC GFR. We built that rifle from the ground up for the cartridge, but many of those improvements can be used for 5.56. Once we have more details on models we will let you know. |
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Originally Posted By GACS: I know it's relatively vague, but think about our 6mm ARC GFR. We built that rifle from the ground up for the cartridge, but many of those improvements can be used for 5.56. Once we have more details on models we will let you know. View Quote Glad it will still be an option. As a KAC fan, due to the E3 pattern, you’ve been the only company that got me to stray from the SR15 pattern rifle as of late. The forged bolt is a major factor in that. Don’t let it die, it’s overkill, and that’s a good thing. |
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Cool. So now the main benefit/perk of Super Duty rifle is being moved over to a significantly higher priced GFR 5.56? Super Duty competed with Knights/LMT, now it’s one step closer to the myriad of other mil-spec rifles. That’s really REALLY disappointing.
Eta: What is special about your mil-spec bolt? Website literally says they are off same production line as DoD contract bolts... |
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Originally Posted By Marksman14: Welp, glad to know thats the case. The reason I've been pushing for G super duty rifles where I work is because of the extra that went into the bolts. If all they're going to be is a standard mil-spec setup with a fancy coating, I'll stick with sionics NP3 for my stuff, and a cheaper rifle for work. Major bummer. View Quote Yup. I’m really disappointed to hear this. |
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Originally Posted By sagmill: We are adding in billet bolts along with forged bolts to our lineup. I would rather keep everything forged but to be honest a forged bolt is overkill for a standard AR as long as it is heat treated/processed in our special way. Billet will still exceed 40,000 rounds on our tester which is a lifetime. We proved this by the BP rifle which went through exhaustive, high cycle round testing with billet bolts that held up as good as the forged ones. We were way ahead in accuracy and reliability in testing: "it wasn't even close" we were told. That being said GFR 5.56/6Arc/22Arc is forged and we have plans to offer a forged bolt on any gun that will come with a billet. Also on the REBCG. View Quote @sagmill @gacs So if I want to buy a super duty upper in the future, will it come with a forged stressproof carpenter 158+ bolt? |
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Originally Posted By thedownzero: Cool. So now the main benefit/perk of Super Duty rifle is being moved over to a significantly higher priced GFR 5.56? Super Duty competed with Knights/LMT, now it’s one step closer to the myriad of other mil-spec rifles. That’s really REALLY disappointing. Eta: What is special about your mil-spec bolt? Website literally says they are off same production line as DoD contract bolts... View Quote I don't think it's being removed from Super Duties. GACS's reply says it will be an option on all rifles that come with billet. I think it will just come standard on GFRs is all. No need to buy a GFR if you want the forged bolt. |
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That sucks, glad I have 4 of them in my Geissele rifles and it’s one of the main reasons I bought them, if there’s no more forged bolts I won’t be buying anymore.
Eta: our bolts last 5x longer but we’re gonna go with same bolt everyone else uses, very disappointing. |
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Originally Posted By bigfatOTMs: I don't think it's being removed from Super Duties. GACS's reply says it will be an option on all rifles that come with billet. I think it will just come standard on GFRs is all. No need to buy a GFR if you want the forged bolt. View Quote Either way, the default bolt used to be the forged bolt that rivals/competed with the knights E3. Now the default bolt will be a mil spec one. A mil spec, one that according to JCS is made with a “special process”… even though their website says it is literally the same one that is going into DOD contracts are as it is made by an OEM supplier. |
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We sincerely appreciate everyone’s feedback. We take our commitment to quality seriously, and to be clear, no changes have been made to the forged bolts in our Super Duty’s and REBCG’s. As we stated, we are looking to see where it makes sense to utilize our billet bolts, since they performed incredibly well in our Border Patrol Rifles. We are working with our team to keep the website accurate and provide customers with the best gear we can make!
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Originally Posted By GACS: We sincerely appreciate everyone’s feedback. We take our commitment to quality seriously, and to be clear, no changes have been made to the forged bolts in our Super Duty’s and REBCG’s. As we stated, we are looking to see where it makes sense to utilize our billet bolts, since they performed incredibly well in our Border Patrol Rifles. We are working with our team to keep the website accurate and provide customers with the best gear we can make! View Quote Well, yall got me good on this one. I had a few of the stressproof bolts in my brownells shopping cart for 188 delivered during the memorial day sale. I didn't *need* them, so I decided to hold off. Then this thread pops up with your correspondence to one member via email....and sales are over and everyone is sold out....except for AR15discounts.com.... So I overpaid for a REBCG H2 and H3 kit, because thats the only place I could find anything in stock that was, or included, the forged bolt. Didn't need all the extras, but at least I got a few more forged bolts and it only cost me about 800 bucks.... |
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Originally Posted By GACS: We sincerely appreciate everyone’s feedback. We take our commitment to quality seriously, and to be clear, no changes have been made to the forged bolts in our Super Duty’s and REBCG’s. As we stated, we are looking to see where it makes sense to utilize our billet bolts, since they performed incredibly well in our Border Patrol Rifles. We are working with our team to keep the website accurate and provide customers with the best gear we can make! View Quote Appreciate response! To confirm though, the “stress proof” bolt is the forged one? Is it shot peened as well? IIRC they used to specifically mention being forged, they no longer do though… |
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Originally Posted By Marksman14: Well, yall got me good on this one. I had a few of the stressproof bolts in my brownells shopping cart for 188 delivered during the memorial day sale. I didn't *need* them, so I decided to hold off. Then this thread pops up with your correspondence to one member via email....and sales are over and everyone is sold out....except for AR15discounts.com.... So I overpaid for a REBCG H2 and H3 kit, because thats the only place I could find anything in stock that was, or included, the forged bolt. Didn't need all the extras, but at least I got a few more forged bolts and it only cost me about 800 bucks.... View Quote I did the same but through PA. |
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Muh Bolt
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@gacs
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I’d planned to buy three rifles this November but I think now I won’t.
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Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott: I’d planned to buy three rifles this November but I think now I won’t. View Quote Attached File Good. Three rifles that will be available for someone to shoot. Not to lose sleep over imaginary broken bolts on imaginary battlefields. Shit like that is best kept for yourself. Intentionally or not, it makes you come off as a spoiled individual with an inflated sence of self importance. |
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Robert Muldoon Survived.
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Originally Posted By campower: /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/shocked-face-1786187-671.jpg Good. Three rifles that will be available for someone to shoot. Not to lose sleep over imaginary broken bolts on imaginary battlefields. Shit like that is best kept for yourself. Intentionally or not, it makes you come off as a spoiled individual with an inflated sence of self importance. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By campower: Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott: I’d planned to buy three rifles this November but I think now I won’t. /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/shocked-face-1786187-671.jpg Good. Three rifles that will be available for someone to shoot. Not to lose sleep over imaginary broken bolts on imaginary battlefields. Shit like that is best kept for yourself. Intentionally or not, it makes you come off as a spoiled individual with an inflated sence of self importance. The irony of getting a lecture about entitlement from someone who thinks he’s entitled to decide what someone says on a web forum. |
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Originally Posted By campower:Good. Three rifles that will be available for someone to shoot. Not to lose sleep over imaginary broken bolts on imaginary battlefields. View Quote Nothing to do with it. The marketed and advertised their forged bolts as superior, and by all accounts they are. Now they’re being replaced with inferior bolt. Additionally I doubt that savings will be passed on to consumer, so it makes sense to be irritated by yet another cost cutting measure from Geissele. |
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Originally Posted By thedownzero: Nothing to do with it. The marketed and advertised their forged bolts as superior, and by all accounts they are. Now they're being replaced with inferior bolt. Additionally I doubt that savings will be passed on to consumer, so it makes sense to be irritated by yet another cost cutting measure from Geissele. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By thedownzero: Originally Posted By campower:Good. Three rifles that will be available for someone to shoot. Not to lose sleep over imaginary broken bolts on imaginary battlefields. Nothing to do with it. The marketed and advertised their forged bolts as superior, and by all accounts they are. Now they're being replaced with inferior bolt. Additionally I doubt that savings will be passed on to consumer, so it makes sense to be irritated by yet another cost cutting measure from Geissele. Except they aren't being replaced. Geissele has stated in this thread that the forged bolt will remain in the REBCG and Super Duty for the foreseeable future. |
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