Posted: 2/25/2010 6:58:22 PM EDT
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They reference many times about firearm fundamentals but what about tactics?
Any recomended video? |
| In many parts of the country, private "paramilitary training" is under legal scrutiny. Some states ban actual practices, while others place restrictions on the act of teaching or demonstrating certain subjects, specifically offering such training as a paid service. Many firearms trainers with tactical expertise are hesitant to even open their classes to civilian students. |
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TACTICS–– a. (used with a sing. verb) The military science that deals with securing objectives set by strategy, especially the technique of deploying and directing troops, ships, and aircraft in effective maneuvers against an enemy: Tactics is a required course at all military academies.
b. (used with a pl. verb) Maneuvers used against an enemy: Guerrilla tactics were employed during most of the war. 2. (used with a sing. or pl. verb) A procedure or set of maneuvers engaged in to achieve an end, an aim, or a goal. What Magpul Dynamics teaches IN THE MOST TECHNICAL OF SENSES based upon the above definiton falls (partially anyway) under the Second form. In reality, the teaching of "tactics" in the civilian side of the world is a VERY sticky prospect. This is because virtually every "tactic" that exists should only be employed based upon a certain tactical situation. This leads to various other "subject matter experts" calling into question the techniques that are considered "Magpul Doctrine". NOTE: In each DVD, Chris and Travis go to great lengths to remind their students that they are only teaching "A WAY" not "THE WAY". These are Techniques utilized to "problem solve", pure and simple. Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures are always changing based upon communities and units. SWAT does things one way. Delta another. Force Recon another. DEVGRU another. SEALs and Rangers even another. Some people consider these differences negligible, but it places an undo amount of attention and conflict on a company with a very clear, specific, and well stated mission and ethos. When you start talking about "tactics" you bring a higher level of professional and legal scrutiny on your company that I don't think Travis and Chris want to deal with. The Magpul Dynamics techniques give you a 90%-ish solution to the "everyday" realities of a gunfight. Pure and Simple. If you want to learn Fireteam formations, Room and building takedowns, and ambush techniques, go buy the Ranger Handbook or a Marine Infantry Squad Publication. |
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MD teaches you how to shoot, dribble, and pass the basketball, but what they don't teach you are all the different offensive plays or defensive zones and presses.
I've been trying to find decent "tactics" sources for while, and so far have been unsuccessful. The legality issue makes sense, they would be screwed if school shootings or bank robberies were executed using tactics taught by them, or terrorists were able to better train because of a set of DVDs on tactics. But basic weapon manipulations could never be pinned on them. I'll take the hit as a civilian then, even though I am extremely curious and interested in learning tactics. |
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Magpul Dynamic's does teach specific tactics courses that are not advertised on the schedule to military UNITs and specific LE UNITs at their request, unfortunately we don't do open enrollment tactics classes for the majority. Even those courses based around employing tactics when requested has a hell of a lot of weapons manipulation in them because once you get to where you are going and the shooting starts it is all gun time until that moment is over so you need to understand problem solving. We are sorry we don't teach to the public but not everything should be public knowledge.
best, costa |
| As stated already MD classes prepare you for 90to 95 per cent what you need to know to survive a lethal force confrontation. I would suggest that you find a good force on force class and learn how not to get shot in a reactive gunfight. The best tactic anyone can have is awareness and the skill to not get shot until you can get your gun in the fight and change the dynamics of the fight in your favor. Gunfights are at least 50% not getting shot and 50% returning fire. |
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not everything should be public knowledge. This It's easy to forget that for the men and women who shoot bad people for a living, their tactical knowledge is truly their lifeline. Our curiosity may be innocent and respectful, but it's not worth getting someone killed. It's not a game. |
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not everything should be public knowledge. This It's easy to forget that for the men and women who shoot bad people for a living, their tactical knowledge is truly their lifeline. Our curiosity may be innocent and respectful, but it's not worth getting someone killed. It's not a game. Respectfully, this attitude is dangerously similar to 'only police should have guns.' |
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not everything should be public knowledge. This It's easy to forget that for the men and women who shoot bad people for a living, their tactical knowledge is truly their lifeline. Our curiosity may be innocent and respectful, but it's not worth getting someone killed. It's not a game. Respectfully, this attitude is dangerously similar to 'only police should have guns.' +1 |
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not everything should be public knowledge. This It's easy to forget that for the men and women who shoot bad people for a living, their tactical knowledge is truly their lifeline. Our curiosity may be innocent and respectful, but it's not worth getting someone killed. It's not a game. Respectfully, this attitude is dangerously similar to 'only police should have guns.' +1 You tinfoil hat wearers need to pump the breaks on that trash. Costa, is not saying that "Only the annointed may know tactics." Magpul Dynamics goes a LONG WAY to teach some pretty high speed, low drag techniques for surviving a gunfight or an active shooter situation that the average citizen may come in contact with. To paraphrase Travis, the 1% of our careers that we can't get wrong is what is going on when triggers are actually being pulled and rounds are going downrange. But it is the 1% that we cannot afford to mess up! If all you want is video of Travis and Chris clearing rooms and setting up L Shaped Ambushes, then you aren't serious about tactics. Remember, the "Dynamic Duo" learned those basics somewhere and it came, more or less, from a book. If you are serious about learning tactics there is a certain amount that you need to do on your own. Which is, "respectfully" not even close to similar to "only police should have guns." Give me a break and get over yourselves. Buy the Ranger Handbook,.... you'll be fine. |
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not everything should be public knowledge. This It's easy to forget that for the men and women who shoot bad people for a living, their tactical knowledge is truly their lifeline. Our curiosity may be innocent and respectful, but it's not worth getting someone killed. It's not a game. Respectfully, this attitude is dangerously similar to 'only police should have guns.' Actually that arguement is very far away from "only police should have guns"...As someone who uses tactics to gain a "Tactical" advantage over bad people why does everyone need to know our tactics who are not police or military. Guns should be owned by anyone who can do so legally and used to defend themselves...However, the knowledge of police and military tactics where we actively SEEK bad people to apprehend them have no use to a citizen who should not be actively seeking/apprehending bad people...I would rather citizens took a critical incident avoidance class and another on defending your home and family. In a time where gang members are joining the military to gain knowledge and tactics to be later used against police officers. With citizens many times scrutinizing every move made by police after hours of review when the officer had SECONDS to decide...Yeah I don't think everyone should be able to learn these tactics...You wanna learn so bad...join up, strap on a gun, and start defending our nation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AHH...Ok Rant Off |
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not everything should be public knowledge. This I disagree. The "only if you work for government" attitude is very dangerous. It's not about that at all. The reasoning behind this isn't to deny you your rights or access to knowledge, it's about keeping that knowledge sacred to those who need it and out of the reach of those who would use it for evil. Loose lips sink ships. |
The posters original question has been answered and this is the Magpul industry section...The more I think about it any debate is probably best left for the general or team portions of this website....BTW thanks Magpul for all the carbine and handgun training videos...Information gleaned from those sources is currently being passed on to people here working the streets and that has to make ya feel pretty damn good I'd bet 
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Actually that arguement is very far away from "only police should have guns"...As someone who uses tactics to gain a "Tactical" advantage over bad people why does everyone need to know our tactics who are not police or military. Guns should be owned by anyone who can do so legally and used to defend themselves...However, the knowledge of police and military tactics where we actively SEEK bad people to apprehend them have no use to a citizen who should not be actively seeking/apprehending bad people...I would rather citizens took a critical incident avoidance class and another on defending your home and family. In a time where gang members are joining the military to gain knowledge and tactics to be later used against police officers. With citizens many times scrutinizing every move made by police after hours of review when the officer had SECONDS to decide...Yeah I don't think everyone should be able to learn these tactics...You wanna learn so bad...join up, strap on a gun, and start defending our nation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AHH...Ok Rant Off So the bangers in NE only fuck with the police? Come on, man. If you can't envision a scenario in which a civilian would have a legitimate need to go on the offensive, you aren't thinking hard enough. Avoiding trouble and hunkering down behind your bed only work if you don't have to go anywhere. I am not saying I don't understand your position, I just don't understand the lack of trust you have for your fellow law-abiding American citizens. We're all in this together. |
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I think what he's saying is you should have to go to lengths to get that information, not just pop in a DVD. If you're serious about knowing how to handle those kinds of threats and survive those types of contacts, strap on a gun and get out to a course that teaches it. They're out there. |
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Actually wombat_scso is exactly right and knows me so he knows my position...He can also attest that he and I both have the same outlook that the more legally armed Americans the better in both of our books...I understand responsible gun handling by all legal citizens and in fact encourage it...Many times the police will not be able to respond quick enough and self defense will obviously be the best defense...What I am saying is that I don't think it is right for any company to just put out a dvd that anyone can purchase and learn tactics that police or milatary use to catch bad people...obviously neither does Magpul....reason would dictate that bad people could also access those references and use them against the good guys...good guys meaning all responsible gun owning Americans....I admit is should've been worded a little better and by no means do I have distrust for fellow law-abiding citizens...Just don't trust the bad ones...And as stated earlier this is a topic for discussion in a general or team member forum instead of on Magpul's Industry forum which is intended for all of us to be able to contact and interact with a progressive firearms company and training group....I know I started it and now...
I digress
ETA: spelling |
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Also, the Money/hassle factor.
It's better income vs. time to train 10 guys from the same unit who are familiar working together and more important, TRAINING together than it is to teach 10 guys, who read to much on the internet, and will never interact with each other again after the class. |
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So the bangers in NE only fuck with the police? Come on, man. If you can't envision a scenario in which a civilian would have a legitimate need to go on the offensive, you aren't thinking hard enough. Avoiding trouble and hunkering down behind your bed only work if you don't have to go anywhere. I am not saying I don't understand your position, I just don't understand the lack of trust you have for your fellow law-abiding American citizens. We're all in this together. I don't think he was saying bangers did not mess with just the police... Although in my experience working the streets (I work a high gang area too) it's rare for them to mess with your avg. joe citizen unless they put themselves in a bad situation to begin with Don't get me wrong I'm not saying random violence against people does not happen buy most of the gang violence is against other gang members or is drug related. The few incidents against normal citizens we normally see are street robberies where people don't pay attention to their surrondings and walk themselves right into a bad situation... As a armed citizen interested in tactics you probably have a one up on those people as you'd be in condition yellow and could avoid the situation all together and that mindset is 90% of the battle. There are enough people that are willing to do harm to people who actually research and learn tactics to use against police and their enemies (aka other gangs). A tactics video is not something that I as a police officer would want people to be able to get off the internet. While there are many law-abiding people such as yourself that would like to learn it there are also those nuts out there that would get it too and use it against you as a citizen and against us as LEO's. I'm all about having armed law-abiding citizens (most my family have CCW's and carry on a reg. basis) but still don't think that high speed low drag military and police tactics should be taught to just anyone. There is a need for that military term OPSEC (Operational Security) and its a safety issue for those tactics to actually be shown to people in a way they can easily learn them! (I know you can read about them but reading only goes so far). So I agree with Chris Costa on their policy... As a civillian I believe you should practice for self DEFENSE thus learning to clear malfunctions and the basics of cover / concealment as well as moving AWAY from the threat (best option for a civillian)! I really just don't think there is any time that it would be best to go on the offensive as a civillian. The offensive would mean you are moving to eliminate the threat like we do and why would you want to risk your ass for that since your goal should be to get to a safe place. As a civillian I can see the need to somewhat tacticallty move through your house to get to family members but thats not really being on the offensive. For cases like that the NRA has a training class for self defense in your home that teaches the basics of moving around your residence. The classes are availible all over the country just look on the web page. Every other situation I can think of including, a nut job shooting up the place you and your family are at, a better action would be to move yourself and family to a safe area and call the police. Some hazards of going on the offensive acting on your own would be the BG's buddy you didn't know was there coming out and shooting you as you try to tactically move to the first BG. Or the first responding officer seeing you with a gun and shooting you. Plus, the fact you are probably not equiped for a gunfight ie: armor, more then one extra magazine, form of ID showing you are the goodguy or access to a long gun. There are many more factors that make going on the offensive a bad idea. Although I am curious to hear what situations you think would be best for you to be on the offense rather then to have a good defense? |
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Like someone above said, perhaps this discussion belongs in GD, team, or perhaps the training forum. But since it is here, I will try to clear up my position. First, I don't care one way or the other if Magpul puts out a tactics video. I can see such a thing as being a potential legal nightmare. While I don't agree with the position that certain knowledge should be restricted to LEO/Mil, I understand where it comes from and respect that decision.
As payback mentioned, there is already volumes of written instruction on the topics. There are already several dozen training DVDs presenting many different aspects of tactics as well (although I haven't seen one with the high level of production as Magpul's videos.) Additionally, many evil-doers are joining the mil to gain training. It is very clear that the information is out there for people who want to get it. The OpSec cat is out of the bag. Nfs_127 highlights one of the main reasons I (and I am sure others) have for wanting to know/understand tactics. There are nuts out there that are interested in learning how to better attack other criminals, police and civilians. Having a good understanding of the opposition will add in defence. Sure, I agree, 90% of the time bad guys fuck with other bad guys. But bad guys aren't generally all that smart and could easily mistake my house for the drug dealer a few blocks over that they are planning on running a door-bust then snatch & grab. There are many situations that the application (or knowledge of) of offensive tactics would be needed by the armed citizen. Team tactics would very rarely ever be put into place by a civilian, except in a husband/wife scenario. The above mentioned gang-bangers kicking down the door in a trained raid would be a good time to know what the attacker may be up to and how to best defeat it. You wouldn't have time to wait for the police in that situation. Or if you came home to a rusty car in your driveway, open door, busted door-jam; knowing that your only daughter was supposed to be home. That be a great time to know how to slice-the-pie, take a stairwell or hallway, or enter a large room either alone or with your wife. I can't say I would wait outside for police to arrive. Or if you are at the mall with your spouse, she takes off for Victoria Secrets as you are browsing the tools in Sears; all of a sudden you hear rifle fire from the food court between you and your wife. Knowing the mall, you know the only way for her to get out is past the gunfire. I'd call her first, but if I couldn't get ahold of her I'd be headed in the direction of danger... it'd be nice if I knew the best way to safely get from A to B and possibly have to deal with one or more bad guys while I move. Or let's say you drop your kid off at the day care and notice a man with a gun inside... I would have a very hard time pulling out of the lot and waiting for police to arrive while kids were possibly getting executed inside. (If you want, I can pull recent news articles of all of the above situations happening, but I am sure you are aware these things do happen.) |
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So the bangers in NE only fuck with the police? Come on, man. If you can't envision a scenario in which a civilian would have a legitimate need to go on the offensive, you aren't thinking hard enough. Avoiding trouble and hunkering down behind your bed only work if you don't have to go anywhere. I am not saying I don't understand your position, I just don't understand the lack of trust you have for your fellow law-abiding American citizens. We're all in this together. Once you've gone on the offensive, how are your actions self-defense? And now you say you are tactically moving through the mall, after shots have been fired, with your handgun out to rescue your wife in your imaginary active shooter scenario. Dozens of people are witnessing you with gun in hand, then calling you in to 9-1-1 as the active shooter, complete with easily identifiable tin-foil hat in the description. Good luck and God bless |
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Once you've gone on the offensive, how are your actions self-defense? And now you say you are tactically moving through the mall, after shots have been fired, with your handgun out to rescue your wife in your imaginary active shooter scenario. Dozens of people are witnessing you with gun in hand, then calling you in to 9-1-1 as the active shooter, complete with easily identifiable tin-foil hat in the description. Once you pull your gun in defense, isn't your goal to neutralize and stop the threat. Not only for you, but for others as well. The majority of jurisdictions that I am aware of allow deadly force for the protection of yourself and others. That's how it goes even here in Commie CA. This is the same logic that anti's use to say no one beside LEO should carry guns. The same situation applies if it's a simple self defense encounter. People walking by seeing you pull you gun to defend yourself, may not see why you pulled your gun and also call LEO, calling in your description as the suspect. The majority of us carry CCW/off duty because we want to protect those around us. What's the point in carrying if you're afraid of being suspected as the bad guy. I'll take my chances with a uniformed officer, rather than leaving my loved ones on their own. I agree that LEO/Mil tactics do not need to be openly shared and available. Yet they are out there, look at video games, movies, and the internet. Here in CA we're seeing a lot of guys getting hooked that have gang tattoos intertwined with military insignias. I think that there are levels of tactics that would be helpful to the majority of citizens, primarily defensive tactics. Simple things like slicing the pie, entering a room, and tactical retreats all seem helpful to the everyday citizen that will being carrying a weapon. Team tactics are an entirely different thing though, and these I don't see a need for the average citizen. |
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I don't see why it would be a problem for Magpul. There are numerous videos in the past that teach tactics, namely in the home defense area. Gun magazine from time to time will do write up on home defense tactics. The vast majority of criminals don't care about police tactics. Military tactics are openly known to other military. |
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Military tactics, setting up ambushes and such, should never apply to the tactics that civilians need to learn. There is no correlation.
That being said, firearms fundementals can be taught in DVD's and 2-3 day courses. True offensive tactics simply cannot. Its an ongoing and evolving process. A three week long course would just start breaking the surface in all reality. |