Posted: 12/15/2009 1:50:15 AM EDT
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Hey guys, I figured I'd bring ask here to see if this is a known issue or not.
All my PMAGs are "M" Revisions. I had this "issue" since the first day I got my PMAGs (back in late August) and was hoping it would work itself out through use, but it hasn't. Ok, I'll try my best to describe this without pictures (tried to take a pic, stupid camera died  ).
Occasionally when inserting a PMAG into my rifle (Colt 6920) on a closed bolt it will not insert at all. When I take it out to inspect it, the front end of the 2nd round in the magazine will be almost level with the top round in the magazine. I know this isn't a "loading 31 rounds" issue as I load them all to 28. I have duplicated this with all of my PMAGs (1 M8/09, 3 M7/09) and several different types of ammunition, I have also duplicated it by loading 30 rounds instead of 28. This will occur roughly 1 out of 5 times. I have no idea what could be causing this or if you have heard anything about this. If this is a know issue, is there a fix for it? I will try and get some batteries later and see if I can get a picture of this to show you exactly what I'm talking about. Figured I'd post this here awhile just to see what input I get, Thanks 
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This got me curious, so I grabbed some rounds and did some experimenting... I was unable to get the second round to point up by pushing down on the first one in any way. BUT I found that if you pry it up, it almost exactly replicates what you have pictured. Obviously there isn't any force acting like this when trying to get it in the rifle, so I thought what if it was from acceleration, like smacking the bottom trying to get it to seat? I loaded up a few more rounds and gave it a smack. Sure enough, the second round popped up. Although I wasn't able to get it to come up all the time, I believe this is the only logical explanation for how this will happen. Keep in mind, that even if I pried the second one up as far as I could, I was still unable to induce any sort of feeding jam (tested by pushing the first one out with my finger) The first round seemed to come out unobstructed, and the second one was corrected from hitting the feed lip.
This leads me to believe that it is just a side effect from your problem. Did you check for any places that the magazine is getting stuck on? I would pay particular attention to the area just below the mag well on the back of the magazine. From my experience, if this is not chamfered enough, it will not allow the magazine to seat. It could be just on the edge of being not enough and when compounded with the full magazine with the bolt forward, it is not allowing the magazine to seat. Can you seat empty magazines with the bolt forward? How many rounds can you load before the magazine is unable to seat? |
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Quoted:
This got me curious, so I grabbed some rounds and did some experimenting... I was unable to get the second round to point up by pushing down on the first one in any way. BUT I found that if you pry it up, it almost exactly replicates what you have pictured. Obviously there isn't any force acting like this when trying to get it in the rifle, so I thought what if it was from acceleration, like smacking the bottom trying to get it to seat? I loaded up a few more rounds and gave it a smack. Sure enough, the second round popped up. Although I wasn't able to get it to come up all the time, I believe this is the only logical explanation for how this will happen. Keep in mind, that even if I pried the second one up as far as I could, I was still unable to induce any sort of feeding jam (tested by pushing the first one out with my finger) The first round seemed to come out unobstructed, and the second one was corrected from hitting the feed lip. This leads me to believe that it is just a side effect from your problem. Did you check for any places that the magazine is getting stuck on? I would pay particular attention to the area just below the mag well on the back of the magazine. From my experience, if this is not chamfered enough, it will not allow the magazine to seat. It could be just on the edge of being not enough and when compounded with the full magazine with the bolt forward, it is not allowing the magazine to seat. Can you seat empty magazines with the bolt forward? How many rounds can you load before the magazine is unable to seat? I can seat empty mags with the bolt forward without issue. I also popped my upper off to see if I could get this to happen and it wouldn't. I'm assuming that the bolt might push down on the top round and cause the 2nd round to "jump" up. When this does happen I am unable to set the magazine without exerting an unusually large amount of force. I also back my mag catch out one turn just to see if that had any effect, but I still encountered this issue. I have had it happen with as little as 10 rounds in the magazine. And, I don't think a "hard" insertion has anything to do with it, because this issue has occurred when inserting the magazine as slow and as soft as possible into the magazine well. I'll insert it and it will suddenly just stop and when I take it out, that jam is what I'll see. BTW, what are the date codes on your magazines that you tested? Maybe it is a mold inconsistency from a certain period of production? |
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Interesting... I tested it on two FDE M rev non-windowed mags. One is new, never fired and the other has had a few hundred through it without any issue. One has the arrow pointing the 6 and one has it pointing to 5, both 09.
If it happens on 10 rounds, I don't think you are fighting the spring force, and that's odd, because that's the only thing that should be pressing on the bolt (bolt presses bullets, who pres the follower, who press the spring). The only other reason I could think of this happening is that the lips might be swelling out once loaded. Again, if it is happening at only 10 rounds that is odd. The lips slightly go into grooves in the bolt, and if it swells, you might be pushing the lips directly onto the bolt. If you have the means, you could try measuring the width of the lips, and then load the mag and measure them again. Mine measure about .44" between the lips unloaded, about .45" loaded with 10, .46" with 20, .46" with 28 and 30 (.466 with 31  ). They are also a few thou wider at the front than the back (I measured about the middle).
I loaded it with 30 into my BCM upper with BCM bolt carrier with almost no effort. (couldn't get it to seat with 31, no play at all ).
I would investigate the feedlips to see if there are any signs of contact with the BCG. In your pictures, it looks kind of like it is wearing on the 2 o'clock, and10 o'clock positions on the lips for about 1/4", but you should check closely. You may want to try and get some kind of paint that flakes off easily and see if it wears from trying to insert them. The wear looks like it could be caused by the BCG coming forward and wedging the lips together when it goes into battery. |
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Occasionally the nose of the second round can pop up like that if the bottom of the mag is slapped too hard. However, it has never been known to cause any feeding issues and most definitely won't prevent the PMAG from seating. The PMAG should indeed seat quite easily on a closed bolt, even with a full 30 rounds on board, so there has to be something out of the norm going on here. Have you been able to try those mags in another weapon or with a different bolt carrier?
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Quoted:
what about ruffing up the in side around the feed lips, think that would help the rounds from moveing around on the smooth plastic in side? In his photographs, the round thats moved forward isn't the one touching the feed lip. Quit telling people to do stupid shit. |
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Quoted:
Occasionally the nose of the second round can pop up like that if the bottom of the mag is slapped too hard. However, it has never been known to cause any feeding issues and most definitely won't prevent the PMAG from seating. The PMAG should indeed seat quite easily on a closed bolt, even with a full 30 rounds on board, so there has to be something out of the norm going on here. Have you been able to try those mags in another weapon or with a different bolt carrier? Sadly I only have one AR and one BCG, and none of the guys I shoot with have an AR either.When the mags did that for the first time, I figured there was just some kind of break in period required and that the springs were just too "energetic" because the mags were brand new. But now I guess that that not the case. Quoted:
looks like you have left your mags loaded long term without the dust covers, that keep the lips from spreading apart Please read my posts again and you will see that this is not the case. |
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My guess is you have an issue with your magazine catch. The round popping up is an artifact of trying to forcibly seat the magazine. Fix the magazine catch issue and the other issue will go away. Yeah I thought that too. But I tried loosening my mag catch and got the same result. I also tried it with the upper taken off and it DID NOT happen. So, I am assuming that it might have something to do with the BCG, though I have no idea what it could be. |
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I've had the same problem with the OP w/ the newer rev Ms. They will not seat on a closed bolt w/ 30rds. And I can duplicate the problem. I take them out and re-smack them to get them to seat again. same issue here. Mine won't seat with 30 and I really have to smack it to get them to seat with 28 an a closed bolt. |
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I've had the same problem with the OP w/ the newer rev Ms. They will not seat on a closed bolt w/ 30rds. And I can duplicate the problem. I take them out and re-smack them to get them to seat again. same issue here. Mine won't seat with 30 and I really have to smack it to get them to seat with 28 an a closed bolt. That does not sound right. Give our tech support a call. |
| It definitely sounds like the bolt carrier and the magazine are not getting along. Have you tried pulling the carrier out and looking at how a loaded magazine and it interface. As others said the carrier has grooves cut for the feed lips. You might find something visually this way. |
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I've gone back to the older pre rev M ones from '07-'08 in black. The rev Ms in FDE all go in a SCAR, no problems as of yet. I'll get that date code for you later. I'm not fond of sending stuff back anymore, getting tired of footing the bill for shipping.
If it doesn't work once, I'll try to fix it, repeatedly, and its done. I'm just glad I didn't jump on the latest and greatest bandwagon when the rev Ms came out. Good thing I kept the older ones. YMMV |
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I wouldn't call it jumping on the bandwagon, Magpul is known to make top notch stuff and my decision to purchase PMAGs was based on input by guys who know what they're talking about.
It just seems that these mags don't get along too well with my BCG (or so I'm guessing), but that's not gonna stop me from buying Magpul stuff. Gonna order an MOE grip and MOE forearm when AIM Surplus gets the MOE forearm back in stock. And all the USGI 30s I have and will buy will DEFINITELY get Magpul followers. BTW, you have a SCAR in the UK? That's pretty cool 
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The date code on the rev M is : 4/09.
Don't get me wrong. I have no problems w/ Magpul. They have the BEST CS/products bar none..........well, maybe Larue, close call.
I've been buying their equipment since they first started up. Hell, most of my rifles/carbines have Magpul all over them.  To the extent, that people ask where can I buy a Magpul carbine like that?
If the Pmag doesn't work in one, I'll swap to another. They function fine, once they're seated. |
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Hell...just open bolt load that baby. One less step to get her up into action. My .02 That's one remedy, but I don't like the fact that I have to do that to load the rifle without issue. Like I said, I got some NHMTGs and Magpul followers on order that I'll try out and see the result. Never tried any USGI 30s before. Hell, I had the PMAGs before I had the rifle
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Quoted:
BTW, you have a SCAR in the UK? That's pretty cool
This was the second time around that one came up. The first time, I passed because the "Massada" was suppose to come out within the year. That turned into the ACR fiasco which kept getting delayed and delayed. I couldn't wait anymore and am rather happy I picked it up. I'll be picking up a Scar H next year. When the ACR actually comes out, I'll add that to my options. Until then... Magpul FDE rev M mags dated 5/09 - 8/09 all work fine. The windowed rev M mags dated 7/09 - 8/09 work fine too. The factory FN mags are D & H mags w/ Magpul grey followers. They and the HK mags work fine. 
The seating issue came from a Sabre Defence A4 clone. When I slapped the mag in, it would not seat. Consistently. With your pics of the hangup. I went to the pre rev M in it. No problems since. 
Not really a problem. I only need to seat the mag once, then the bolt catch takes over. |
| I think the OP's problem (or similar), happens more often than you guys think. In the last batch of PMags I received, I got one that absolutely will not seat in any of my guns while it is loaded to 30 rounds. Download to 28 and it is fine. Stuff happens, the PMag is still great gear. |