[ARCHIVED THREAD] - PSA PA10 GenII lower w/ PA-65 review. START at the beginning again...UPDATED with Tn'G results... (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/11/2017 11:09:15 PM EDT
|
Please Note : .... I am altering the original posts....VIEW ALL THE PHOTOS, they are not in any particular order, apart from how they were originally posted... There are good and bad results scattered through the thread. the Photos will be before and after I trued the receiver face and Loctited ( Glued ) the barrel ( Loctite 609 ) so every one doesn't have to jump around on the thread > REMEMBER.... there are numerous rounds tested... not just the first 5 shown. Also, I will input the measured group size of both... I DID NOT subtract the bullet diameter from those measurements ... AND I have never claimed to be a great shot... so while some of the small before groups, might now be larger.... Lol, that is just me All groups were fired from a solid concrete bench, at 100yds, scoped with a Vortex Viper PST FFP, EBR-2C MOA reticule, bagged front, wedge bagged back... with no cool off periods ( reasonable rate if fire... record data, reload 5rds, fire again. ) Some of the rounds that showed the most improvement are ... ( no specific order.. ) Again group size does not have .264 subtracted from them. Difference in group size, FGMM 130gr Hybrid OTM..... Before 2.3660" 5rds, .... After .9580". Difference in group size, .Hornady 140gr ELD Match.... Before 2.2045" 5rds, .... After .9290". Difference in group size, PRIME 130gr HPBT Match.... Before 1.9165" 5rds, .... After .9620"... Difference in group size, Federal Fusion 140gr..... Before 2.1445"... After... 1.4355" Difference in group size, Hornady American Gunner 140gr BTHP.... Before ...1.1950" .... After.... .7520" Difference in group size...Creedmoor Sports 140gr Nosler BTHP... Before 1.5135"... After... .8770" You will be able to see the more dramatic differences further down the thread. Before Tn'G and After TnG I am just sitting down to dinner.... but, just a brief preview of the better groups.... ( I will edit this post later, with considerably more info ) 100yds, benched, scoped, bagged front, wedge bag rear.... 5rds each.... PSA factory 20" barrel, SLR adjustable gas block, Lantac Dragon .30cal brake. Please bear in mind.... this is from an AR platform, yes.. IMHO, a bolt action would have most likely been more accurate.... BUT, from a $500 complete upper, I consider these groups to be outstanding Nosler 140gr HPBT ... Before Tn'G 
After TnG 
Difference in size, Nosler CC Match 140gr... Before... .7890" 5rds.... After ... 1.1890" 5rds . Federal AE 140gr ... Before Tn'G 
After TnG 
Difference in size, Fed AE 140gr....Before... .9425" 5rds.... After ... 9810" 5rds . Hornady 120gr ELD.... Before Tn'G 
After TnG ... And I know I pulled the one flier...  Difference in size, Hornady 120gr ELD....Before... 1.0130" 5rds.... After ... 1.9190" 5rds ... pulled another one.. SIG 140gr OTM...Before Tn'G 
After TnG  Difference in size SIG 140gr OTM.........Before... 1.1830" 5rds.... After ... .9580" 5rds |
|
Some of the details....
2 things I have to mention first.... The PA65 arrived missing the "slotted key" used to secure the free float tube to the barrel nut ... not a problem as I borrowed one from another PSA .308 upper. Next, I didn't receive the "High pressure/ small diameter firing pin bolt" , instead it arrived with a .308 bolt and firing pin..... BUT !! I had NO issues using the .308 bolt and .308 firing pin....none , no pressure signs... nothing. I contacted PSA concerning both issues and Fred is sending me all the correct parts !!! WHO says PSA CS can be troublesome !!! .... NOT me ! IMHO, PSA is correcting the issues as good as anyone could !! Onward to the good stuff ! Details on the rifle as it is currently setup... Upper.... PA65 OEM complete upper, 20", rifle length gas, SLR .750 clamp on gas block, Lantac .30cal muzzle brake, Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 The .30cal brake seemed to work good enough... well enough that I won't bother to buy a 6.5 brake. I mildly polished the feed ramps, and slightly polished the chamber with 0000 steelwool spun on a .30/06 chamber brush via a drill. NOTE: not a AR chamber brush...but one used for a .30/06 bolt action rifle. Lower.... The same setup I used in my .308 PSA rifle as seen in the other thread.... PSA "Multi" marked lower, LaRue MBT trigger, Magpul 1.1 grip, KAK 9.3oz .308 rifle length buffer, and a Tubbs .308 Flatwire spring. I will add... the lower has been polished at the full length inside of the buffer tube, magwell burnished, trigger face slightly polished. I also use Varmint Lights " X-Shims" to minimize the play between the upper and lower. I am one of those guys that believes it makes the firing the rifle accurately "easier" and more consistent in my shooting stance at the bench. I am happy to say, there was no interference from the barrel nut against the gas tube... the charging handle did not bind as a result. Frankly.... the whole upper was a trouble free affair... after changing parts ( that I wanted ... SLR , muzzle brake ) it was a plug and play deal. I fired it first with the SLR wide open... just to see how it was, It certainly recoiled less then the PSA .308 upper... but was certainly gassing more then needed. I adjusted the SLR to 5 clicks from closed... and was GTG with all the ammo tested. No hiccups, no sluggishness, and as mentioned before no signs of pressure issues.... the abrupt cyclic speed is now gone... I tried the Magpul 20rd, and 10rd mags, the Lancer 20rd, the IMI 20rd, and the D&H 20rd and 10rd mags.... all performed as meant to. oddly, my .308 doesn't "enjoy" the Lancer 20rd for some reason the BCG seems to drag with it.... no such issue with the 6.5 upper.... can tell the Lancer spring is strong, but in the 6.5 the Lancer never once was sluggish cycling. Factory Ammo.... As you will see... the PSA 6.5CM barrel had its likes and dislikes accuracy wise... perfectly normal. For the most part, and given its price point... I think the barrel performed very well. Onto the accuracy photos.... I didn't fire a bunch of 5rd groups of each ammo, just 2ea 5rd groups...showing the best of the 2.... the reason being, I will retest later after I true up the receiver face and Loctite the barrel into the receiver. I am hoping that will help with the overall consistency of the different ammos.... and help clean up the dreaded cold bore flyer, as well as some of the other fliers. Did I mention how happy I am with this upper !! |
|
If I repeat some of the photos .... oops ahead of time. I think it would be easier then jumping back and forth between the posts. Some previously not seen ammo groups.... Nosler Ballistic Tips 140gr... Overall 1.7625, 7 rds, The Nosler ballistic tip ammo was consistently producing two distinct groups....one shot low, one shot high..  ... or I was !!
4rd group... 1.1030, 3rd group... .8900  . Winchester 125gr XP .... 1.3645" 5rds.  . Creedmoor Sports 140gr Hornady bullet.... .9570"  . Back to Tn'G..... Creedmoor Sports 142gr SMK HPBT... Before Tn'G  After Tn'G  Difference in group size Creedmoor 142gr SMK... Before.... 1.1080" 5rds... After... 1.2670" 6rds... ( because I flubbed one and wanted to see if it was me or the ammo ) |
Federal "Non-Typical" 140gr SP.... ( I was hoping these would do better ....Flat base and all ) Before Tn'G...
After Tn'G........ also a funky group...fire one it goes in the same hole as another, next goes way off... next same hole... then way off.. 
Difference in group size, Federal "Non-Typical" 140gr SP.... 1.9315", Before.... 2.7030 After . Hornady American Gunner 140gr BTHP ... Before Tn'G... NOTE 2 separate groups with two separate POA 
After Tn'G........ HUGE difference 
Difference in group size, Hornady American Gunner 140gr BTHP.... 1.1950" before.... .7520", after . Browning 129gr BRX.... Before Tn'G... 
After Tn'G........ 
Difference in group size, Browning 129gr BRX.... 1.8335" before.... 2.6610", after . Hornady American Whitetail 129gr Interlock... Before Tn'G... 
After Tn'G........ 
Difference in group size, Hornady American Whitetail 129gr Interlock... .... 3.0965" before.... 2.2410", after |
Now it starts to get real interesting..... Hornady 120gr A-Max Before Tn'G 
After Tn'G 
Difference in group size., Hornady 120gr A-Max... 1.8260" Before.... 1.4175", After.... . FGMM 130gr Hybrid OTM Before Tn'G 
After Tn'G 
Difference in group size, FGMM 130gr Hybrid OTM..... Before 2.3660" 5rds, .... After .9580"..... OH YEAH ! . Hornady 140gr ELD Match Before Tn'G  After Tn'G 
Difference in group size, .Hornady 140gr ELD Match.... Before 2.2045" 5rds, .... After .9290"..... OH YEAH ! Norma Match 130gr HPBT..... very similar groups, box markings, case and bullet as the PRIME ammo Before Tn'G 
After Tn'G  Difference in group size, Norma Match 130gr HPBT.... Before 2.4425" 5rds, .... After 1.9660"..... . PRIME 130gr HPBT Match Before Tn'G 
After Tn'G 
Difference in group size, PRIME 130gr HPBT Match.... Before 1.9165" 5rds, .... After .9620"..... 
|
|
Hornady Superformance 129gr SST
Before Tn'G 
After Tn'G 
Difference in group size.....Hornady Superformance 129gr SST... Before 2.1265... After... 2.6635 . Creedmoor Sports 140gr Nosler BTHP Before Tn'G 
After Tn'G  Difference in group size...Creedmoor Sports 140gr Nosler BTHP... Before 1.5135"... After... .8770" Federal Fusion 140gr Before Tn'G 
After Tn'G 
Difference in group size, Federal Fusion 140gr..... Before 2.1445"... After... 1.4355" |
|
I don't feel like reviewing everything I wrote.... but if I didn't mention it... with the SLR , the heavy buffer and Tubbs spring, and the overall weight ( I will weigh it tomorrow ) ... the rifle barely moves at the bench.
Staying on target has a whole new meaning with the fat pig. |
| Bfoosh06, again you've done an awesome job shaking out another PSA rifle combination. Thank you so much for taking the time to publish your work on this PSA rifle platform. I know for myself, your work been very helpful, and has helped me make decisions regarding my setup. |
|
What do you guys think... leave it be... or true the receiver face and Loctite in the PSA barrel ?
There is part of me that wants to see if the average group size improves... and there is a part of me that thinks I should leave the PSA barrel alone and enjoy it. Any comments would be appreciated. |
|
Quoted:
What do you guys think... leave it be... or true the receiver face and Loctite in the PSA barrel ? There is part of me that wants to see if the average group size improves... and there is a part of me that thinks I should leave the PSA barrel alone and enjoy it. Any comments would be appreciated. Thank you for all of your work. |
|
Quoted:
Curious why the FGMM and Hornady 140’s did so poorly. Was the barrel extremely hot when you tested that ammo? I will say, I did not clean it at all while testing the various ammos... I really didn't expect it to produce sub-moa given its price point. Frankly, it didn't like any of the 130-129gr tested loads. |
|
Quoted:
Good point on just do it... I was apprehensive because it is shooting so well. I suspect I will do it anyway just for the sake of "I gotta know". |
|
Quoted:
Ok... after shooting at the 200yd and 300yd range.... I am going to true the receiver face and Loctite in the barrel.... at about a dollar a shot. I can't stand groups larger then 1MOA. I got .001 stainless steel shim stock from ebay for $9 for a piece big enough to do 2 barrels. After truing the receiver and all the lapping and polishing I did to the barrel, the cheap bushnell scope in an aero mount went back on and the POI only moved an inch. Keep us updated. I've really enjoyed your posts. |
|
I might try the SS shims... on the next barrel. ( Checked the thread a little late ! )
I did true up the receiver face and Loctite 609 the PSA barrel in... Hopefully I can get to the range during this weekend... ( You know with all the free time allowed at my age ... I mean we are going to see the WHOLE family again at Christmas.. Lol , and I promised to assemble a Armalite .308 ) I am very curious if the groups are gonna be noticeably smaller / better after the truing and Loctite... I Intend to do the same treatment to my PSA .308 SS Upper, just form curiosities sake. |
|
I can't wait to see your results. I hope to get out soon and shoot the psa 10 with the lapped lugs. My rifle had pronouced friction where the bolt enter the extension. I originally thought that the gas tube was binding. Then i thought the gas rings must be tight. After finding only two lugs on one side showing wear and lapping them in, the bolt seating into the extension is very smooth. I'd be interested in seeing the back of your bolt lugs. I couldn't talk the family into thanksgiving at the range either. |
|
Quoted:
I couldn't talk the family into thanksgiving at the range either. It didn't take much force to break it.... so if anyone else RnR's a barrel using the PSA barrel nut don't torque it to much !!.... it made a bone-chilling "ting" noise, much like a Garand clip ejecting !! Not an issue as I am going to steal one from another upper... and I have a more suitable ( steel barrel nut ) replacement coming. Going to mess with the replacement tonight. |
|
looks great. i had considered buying one of these uppers with my "black friday money" but ended up buying a couple thompson center compass rifles in .308 (with the sub moa guarantee). plus they match my psa 308. no measured groups with the t/c rifles but they seem to be real shooters so far. i vote true and loctite it, if it goes bad it aint mine. 
|
|
Quoted:
Right on. Whats that peice you have on the back of your scope mount? Looks like something to change a flat top to say, a 20 MOA base? The "gizmo" just below and in between the rings / above the ejection port is a brass deflector bent and abused to help the brass fall close to me, I also put the fuzzy sided Velcro on the uppers brass deflector. ( Not in the picture ) The rail mounted gizmo in front of the forward ring is a CR2032 battery holder for the illuminated Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP with the "Christmas Tree" EBR-2C Reticle (MOA).... also one of the last ones out there... the newer ones are not fully illuminated. ( Unless you step up in 2X the price, in the RAZOR model. ) |
|
FYI... I have changed the broken barrel nut over to the other one. The face is trued and glued. I will test fire to see if there is an improvement in accuracy from the receiver truing and Loctite 609. Hopefully, groups will tighten up. ( I mean they should ! ) Be advised.... I am also a spastic cheap to build / accuracy chaser... I ordered up a Criterion 22" SS 6.5CM barrel, an SLR .825 Clamp On Adjustable Gas Block, and a 18" Midwest industries DPMS pattern LR 308 , .210 Upper tang ( Steel Barrel nut ) free float tube. So after I am done testing the trued n glued PSA barrel... there will be more to come. |
|
Finally got to the range today for the Trued n' Glued testing.... If anyone isn't sure if it helps, I can say, either my shooting skills dramatically improved... or the Trued n' Glued worked.
I will do the Tn'G on all my AR platforms.... the results are so obvious, that most groups could be readily / easily be seen to be better.... without measuring at the range. Improvements in the realm of 1MOA+ will be seen in the following downloaded photos. I will note the measured improvements as well as the few "didn't change a thing" ones. I am hoping to alter the original posts with a before ( OEM ) and after, True n' Glue photo. Give me some time... but, again.. if you aren't sure if you want to do it.... I will argue that you should !! Lol Also there will be some added ammo tested from the Tn'G barrel. Wow .... I am still impressed with the results just thinking about it. |
|
Ok... I have added all the "after" photos and some more New ammo groups.... I gotta say... I'm not sure I want to swap out the PSA OEM barrel. Going to take it to 2-300 yds next. Some slight, good or bad differences are probably me and inconsistent bench skills.... ( IE about the same results... ) IMHO, it is difficult to test fire so many different rounds in one day.... staying on your "A" game for 8 hours is exhausting . . Some of the rounds that showed the most improvement are ... ( no specific order.. ) . Difference in group size, FGMM 130gr Hybrid OTM..... Before 2.3660" 5rds, .... After .9580". Difference in group size, .Hornady 140gr ELD Match.... Before 2.2045" 5rds, .... After .9290". Difference in group size, PRIME 130gr HPBT Match.... Before 1.9165" 5rds, .... After .9620"... Difference in group size, Federal Fusion 140gr..... Before 2.1445"... After... 1.4355" Difference in group size, Hornady American Gunner 140gr BTHP.... Before ...1.1950" .... After.... .7520" Difference in group size...Creedmoor Sports 140gr Nosler BTHP... Before 1.5135"... After... .8770" |
|
Some decent shrinkage there. I bought one of these uppers on a gamble and idea that I'll just swap the barrel if it's too bad. After seeing this, I may just true the receiver and glue the barrel right off the bat. Did you true it in a lathe or use one of the tools? |
|
Quoted:
Some decent shrinkage there. I bought one of these uppers on a gamble and idea that I'll just swap the barrel if it's too bad. After seeing this, I may just true the receiver and glue the barrel right off the bat. Did you true it in a lathe or use one of the tools? I trued the receiver face with Pacific Tool and Gauge's AR-10 Upper Receiver Lapping Tool ( http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/ar-tools/10318-ar-15-upper-receiver-lapping-tool.html ) and some lapping compound from Brownells. PTG also sells a AR15 receiver size. I "glued" the barrel in place with some Loctite 609, Criterion Barrels uses it, and that is good enough for me. "Loctite ® 609™ is a low viscosity, rapid-curing anaerobic adhesive that augments the strength of press fit assemblies or slip fit assemblies up to 0.005"in diameter. Adds up to 3,000 psi holding power. Recommended for parts that will need subsequent dismantling, i.e., retention of bearings onto shafts and into housings." Here is a link to the Criterion Video about doing this...( Part 3 ) http://criterionbarrels.com/accurizing-the-ar-15-video-series |
|
Quoted:
Some of the details.... 2 things I have to mention first.... The PA65 arrived missing the "slotted key" used to secure the free float tube to the barrel nut ... not a problem as I borrowed one from another PSA .308 up 06 ....did you ever contact PSA about the missing alignment key for the barrel nut interface . I order this same upper and the key was also missing. I was told they could not just send me the key, that I would have to ship the entire upper back to them. Just wondering if anyone else has had same or different experience? |
|
Quoted:
Quoted: Some of the details.... 2 things I have to mention first.... The PA65 arrived missing the "slotted key" used to secure the free float tube to the barrel nut ... not a problem as I borrowed one from another PSA .308 up 06 ....did you ever contact PSA about the missing alignment key for the barrel nut interface . I order this same upper and the key was also missing. I was told they could not just send me the key, that I would have to ship the entire upper back to them. Just wondering if anyone else has had same or different experience? You can purchase the replacement key, or barrel nut, or screws...for both the .308 size and the 5.56 size FF tube over here.. JL Billet..... The key is 4 Bucks. And to be quite honest, I would strongly suggest buying spares and some spares of the barrel nut. Better safe then sorry. Given how well mine is shooting... there would be no way in heck, that I would "send it in" over a part I can buy. Heck shipping it back to PSA costs more then the part. .308 size Replacement Barrel Nut Key Seat .308 Replacement Barrel Nut, DPMS Profile. |
|
Quoted:
Found the lapping tool earlier. Probably will order one in the near future. Seems to worth the effort. Quoted:
Found the lapping tool earlier. Probably will order one in the near future. Seems to worth the effort. Quoted:
Wow, Thank you for reminding me !!!!.. I stumbled across the maker of the PSA FF tubes... and the missing parts, while looking for a handguard, after snapping my barrel nut. !! You can purchase the replacement key, or barrel nut, or screws...for both the .308 size and the 5.56 size FF tube over here.. JL Billet..... The key is 4 Bucks. And to be quite honest, I would strongly suggest buying spares and some spares of the barrel nut. Better safe then sorry. Given how well mine is shooting... there would be no way in heck, that I would "send it in" over a part I can buy. Heck shipping it back to PSA costs more then the part. .308 size Replacement Barrel Nut Key Seat .308 Replacement Barrel Nut, DPMS Profile. |
|
Quoted:
Prepare yourself for shipping to cost as much as the tool. That was an unpleasant eye opener. That's good work bfoosh. Between the PA10 and a couple other psa uppers I've been rebarreling, I find I really like the handgaurd design. You end up with up with a very nice cost effective setup picking up their sub $300 uppers with free shipping and the handgaurd you want and then swap the barrel. Quoted:
Quoted:
Found the lapping tool earlier. Probably will order one in the near future. Seems to worth the effort. Quoted:
Wow, Thank you for reminding me !!!!.. I stumbled across the maker of the PSA FF tubes... and the missing parts, while looking for a handguard, after snapping my barrel nut. !! You can purchase the replacement key, or barrel nut, or screws...for both the .308 size and the 5.56 size FF tube over here.. JL Billet..... The key is 4 Bucks. And to be quite honest, I would strongly suggest buying spares and some spares of the barrel nut. Better safe then sorry. Given how well mine is shooting... there would be no way in heck, that I would "send it in" over a part I can buy. Heck shipping it back to PSA costs more then the part. .308 size Replacement Barrel Nut Key Seat .308 Replacement Barrel Nut, DPMS Profile. |
|
I want to thank the OP again for the info. Great to see the before and after from the true and glue for sure. There are several apps out there for measuring groups, this is one of them:
https://ontargetshooting.com It has a free trial if you’d like to check it out. |
|
Thank you to everyone ! I try not to measure groups "super" accurately, simply because some days I am "in the zone" and some days I am not ! Lol That is why I didn't put much merit in the groups that were great the first shooting and slightly larger in the next testing.... that said the most dramatic improvements couldn' just be from my shooting technique. I still have high levels of confidence in the Nosler, Fed AE, SIG, Creedmoor Sports, etc being able to shoot well. One of these days I may go buy a real sled type set up ( confortable ) and test again. Right now, I am going to install the criterion barrel on another upper and see what that barrel can do. ( Or buy the KAK 300 WSM Upper and try that out... Lol... ) Merry Christmas to all !! |
|
Quoted:
I want to thank the OP again for the info. Great to see the before and after from the true and glue for sure. There are several apps out there for measuring groups, this is one of them: https://ontargetshooting.com It has a free trial if you’d like to check it out. Use the RangeBuddy App for your phone. It has a little bit of a learning curve to using it, but once you get the hang of it, it's faster and easier to use. And you don't have to fool with transferring photos over to your PC, which you have to do to use OnTarget. It's also free. |
|
Soooo.... I bought another complete PA10 lower.... is has a longer carbine buffer tube, a regular AR15 length buffer, and a longer buffer spring then my first PA10 lower. I haven't measured them yet... but is sure looks like a Armalite .308 length buffer system. So... prior to any purchasing of buffer parts, I strongly suggest you post photos of what actually came with your rifle. The "new" longer length buffer tube is marked "PA10" with the PSA "Logo" as well ... the buffer is AR15 length ( no markings ) as hand compared to a spare AR15 carbine buffer I have laying around. Here are some side by side photos for comparison...the "New" sized buffer system is on the left. The older "DPMS" style buffer systems is on the right. 
 I am now wondering how many times the different ones have been used... and how many times it may have caused mayhem and confusion. |