[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Tango (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 9/3/2012 4:56:11 PM EDT
Quick pics of my build so far:
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OK, you guys are making me look bad here! I got the new rifle put together but I have to warn you all, for me, its all about results. I wanted a rifle that shot well, and shot consistently. So while I don't have anything that looks like Dave and Dave, I do have some targets to show you. This is the rifle I was hoping for.
First, a little info: This is NOT an ordinary .22 AR with a heavy barrel to make it look like a target gun. NO, this is the real deal. The barrel has a match chamber, a Bentz, which is a chamber optimized for a semi-auto target rifle. Then there is that bolt. Mine is head spaced right at .041" which is just perfect. A standard bolt on a production rifle like a Ruger 10/22 might run as high as .054". This means with the extra space the round is loose in the chamber, not as accurate as it could be but it makes the rifle flexible as to what ammo it can shoot. What do you want? Reliable with any junk ammo or more accuracy with good quality ammo? This rifle is built for accuracy, period! The barrel, as you have seen in the photos, has the standard AR barrel extension that hooks up with the front of the barrel adapter that positively locks everything in place. The locking lugs engage the barrel and this baby is locked up nice and firm, shot after shot. It does matter! What we are looking for are parts that will position the rounds in chamber in exactly the same place shot after shot. I don't know of any other set-up out there for .22 AR that comes anywhere close to this design. Since this upper is set up for target shooting and maximizing accuracy it has some requirements as far as ammo and magazines. This upper is NOT optimized to run every low cost bulk ammo from Walmart. It like good ammo, although I found it functions and groups nicely with several common brands of standard good quality .22 ammo. Look at the targets, they tell the story. My rifle is a work horse, not a show horse. Here she is ready for the range: 
Again, not a fancy rifle, but one built to perform. The scope is an 8-24 x 44 Bushnell made in Japan. Its optics are superb. Again, none of those fancy open target turrets like the snipers use (you know the ones you bump and change your POA) , just wonderfully clear optics and a reticule that is sharp and clear and easy on the eyes. Love this scope. But, how does she shoot? After all, this is what this rifle is all about. Due to the continuing questionable weather here I elected to go to my indoor range. I can only do 25 yards there but it was good for a first outing and some general reliability testing. Bear in mind these groups were shot with just a simple front rest, nothing fancy. I didn't have my better front and rear sand bags with me today. I had to hold the rifle in my shaking hands, otherwise these groups would have been much tighter. Here are some of the targets, and the coin is NOT a quarter, its a lowly little tiny dime, the smallest coin I had to use: Ten rounds of American Eagle (not some exotic target ammo). 
And, ten rounds of Federal Champion. 
Next some Agulia Golden Eagle I had a box of: 
Now, with some good ammo. Again ten rounds from my shaking hands, not some fancy rest: 
And some three round groups: 
This was just a first outing to let everything settle in and to check functioning of the build. I didn't have a good rest to shoot off of either. What the results do show me however is that this rifle is on track to be the most accurate semi-auto .22 I have fired. The amazing part for me is how consistently it groups with a wide range of ammo. Testing other .22 AR's (and other .22 rifles as well) I have always found a lot of variations in groups and POI with different ammo. Chris and the guys at CMMG have worked some firearm magic here and got this thing dialed in. It seems to shoot most any decent ammo extremely well and with high quality match ammo I think its going to be the King of the .22 AR hill. My next work is to get my shooting rest all rigged back up and take this thing out where I can work on 50 yards and then 100. Clearly from what I am seeing here this rifle has some great potential. Off a good rest and with some quality ammo it looks like I might get single hole groups with it. Simply amazing! |
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How much? When will they be available? Mental note: Start saving now... MAHA Price should be in line with other CMMG Pricing. You'll get way more than you'd expect for the price. CMMG's philosophy is that they want you to get more than you feel you're paying for. That has held true for all the various parts, barrels and uppers they've produced. That business practice has always been a proven winner and has shown itself in through the roof sales figures... No other AR-22 Manufacturer does so much for us and puts the customers at the top of their priority list. John, Function over anything. I basically threw a bunch of parts that were laying around on mine. Down the road, I'll be swapping a lot of things around. I shoot GI Triggers for most of my testing. This upper looks like it'll be worthy of going much further. I'm sure it's capable of way more accuracy than I will be able to achieve. If I were 30 years younger, I really think it would produce 1 hole consistently at 25 yards with it's preferred ammo... The best group I've ever fired was 5 shots, 0.025 CTC at 25 yards with a Clint Beyer M4 Barrel. Could I possibly beat that???? And, I also have to beat 0.267 at 100 yards done with a Ballistic Advantage / Spike's 18" BB and a match trigger. My best 50 yard target ever was bigger than that at 0,338 with that same upper and lower... OMG... If any barrel is competition this new CMMG should be..... Dave S |
Dave: I had to rib you guys and those fancy rifles.  Like you, I put mine together with what I had sitting around on the bench just to get her up and running. You just had nicer parts than I. 
As for accuracy, you have shot some of the better rifles out there. I think this rifle will probably equal them once we get settled in and sorted out. This rifle has several special things going for it that have not been available before, notably the lock up system that holds the action securely to the barrel. CMMG has certainly come up with some good ideas. From what I am hearing the price premium for this won't be bad at all. At one time they quoted about $150 more.(That is not official yet, just speculation). If anyone has ever built a custom grade rifle before they know $150 is a bargain. The good thing here is this rifle is just so darn good and consistent. I think this rifle is clearly worth putting some money into as it is going to be a real performer. The few people who have seen the results of mine have been very impressed and wanted to know where to get one. I know I will be "up-grading" mine after seeing just how good this rifle is. This thing is clearly not hype, its the real deal! This is clearly a "keeper". CMMG has struck again! |
So when you fellas recieved this stuff for testing what did they actually send you? A complete upper? Just the collar,locking lug and barrel. I guess I am not understanding how this will be sold. I assume you can just buy the barrel,collar and locking lug and convert your current rifle to this? It appears the upper reciever and bolt would be the same or is there a differance in these parts? I will not even bring up the availibility question and get started on that Thanks
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Don't know how it will be sold yet. These samples are put into the field into the hands of actual users to see how they will perform in the real world. Its a form of testing to insure that consumers will receiver a better product. I think the three testers combined have over 100 years of shooting experience behind us. We put the parts to the test and try to make sure they are the best they can be. If there is an issue (rare, but always a possibility with any product) we work with the folks back at CMMG to find improvements. I think its a great move on CMMG to insure the end user gets the best product possible. Its just another layer of quality and performance checks.
I am waiting to hear back from CMMG on when these are available and pricing info. |
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Thanks,I realize you guy are just testing this stuff and it is great you take the time do so. But my question is more in the line of what did they send you. I see you have differant Handguards and such on your rifles so obviously they never sent you complete uppers. In otherwords what did they send you and how much of these are your own parts.
Just trying to get a sense of what a guy will have to buy to get one of these set up. If I have to buy a whole new complete upper I do not think that is going to happen. They will surely not make you do that I hope just to get the barrel,collar and locking lug.. After the recent .22 magazine release fiasco, I do not think CMMG will probably put out any release dates on these Thanks
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Thanks,I realize you guy are just testing this stuff and it is great you take the time do so. But my question is more in the line of what did they send you. I see you have differant Handguards and such on your rifles so obviously they never sent you complete uppers. In otherwords what did they send you and how much of these are your own parts. Just trying to get a sense of what a guy will have to buy to get one of these set up. If I have to buy a whole new complete upper I do not think that is going to happen. They will surely not make you do that I hope just to get the barrel,collar and locking lug.. After the recent .22 magazine release fiasco, I do not think CMMG will probably put out any release dates on these ThanksThey sent everything but a handguard to me. Bought one from RMW Xtreme. I know CMMG will have a Complete upper available. Possibly not individual parts at the start. Or it could go the opposite. Sometimes parts are ready and the whole is being held up by certain suppliers. People at CMMG stay so busy that it's difficult for even Dave N, John and I to get enough of them to comment about releases. Often, a number of people there will have to add everything up from all angles before they can give an Educated Estimate of when new products will be available for sale. John O was working on finding a driving force for their new products when I talked to him. If I were closer than a thousand miles it might have been me.  Missed Opportunity.. Hope this helps answer your question atleast partly carbineone1964...
Dave S |
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At this time there are only 5 barrels and bolts in existance.
We wee sent barrels, matched bolts, and I received a modular upper receiver because I didn't have an extra laying around. The rest we provided. I would imagine when these are marketed, they will be complete. It's basically a hand fitted, match upper. Dave N |
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Like Dave and Dave said, we got parts. These first few were "hand made" to work insure the process and design were correct. Chris at CMMG made sure they were right. We are field testing them to see if they are as good as Chris and CMMG wanted them to be. As most people know, the real test is when it leaves the factory and hits the streets in the hands of real users. Dave, Dave, and I shoot these things. We do just what you would do with one. We want to help make sure that they work as CMMG intended. If there are things that need improved, we speak out. If they work great, we tell them so.
They are taking their time on this upper to get it right and make it available. After all, this is a no-compromise upper optimized for accuracy. They need to get it right, and I think they have the formula now. I have been totally amazed at the consistency of this rifle shooting various ammo. I even stopped by my LGS and bought another $50 worth of .22 to try some other brands in the rifle beyond what I had in stock already. I want to compare as many samples as I can to be fair. After all, not everyone has access to every brand of .22. Its only fair to build up a data base of what works best. So far it is able to perform very well with most all quality ammo that anyone should be able to buy locally. |
| Thanks and surely looking for more test results. So is there anything differant or special about the bolt and rail? Or the upper reciever? Or are those two parts just the standard parts we all have now..Of course what I am getting at here is it would be nice to have this stuff sold seperatley I think the parts would sell better as a upgrade than a complete upper to the thousands of us that already have a CMMG upper and do not need another. Surely both a complete upper and parts to upgrade for those of us that already have the CMMG upper could be possible. That would also open a market for those people wanting to completeley assemble their own upper. Maybe CMMG will chime in as to their plans on this.. |
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This can be built with mix and match Mil Spec Parts. My upper receiver came in as one of CMMG's New Ambidextrous Capable Units.
Not necessarily needed. So when this is released to the general shooting public everyone can make their upper a little different.
Dave S |
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My upper receiver you see here is just an extra one I had lying about. The magic is in the barrel and bolt assembly. I won't say too much more than that at this time. As precision .22 shooters and fans know the head spacing on a .22 is critical to keeping the cartridge positioned precisely in the chamber. You have have nice barrel but if the bolt and action don't position the cartridge precisely and consistently you will get variations in the POI's. This is where parts all have to work together. If you look at a rifle like the 10/22 Ruger one of the things done to them to improve their accuracy is to re-machine the bolt face to bring the head space into a tighter spec. Then they do a barrel rear-set and cut a Bentz chamber into them to make it fit better. Doing the barrel alone will help some, but its the relationship of the barrel and the bolt face that hold things precisely. Changing one without the other might improve things some but it will not maximize performance. The reason for using the locking lugs into the barrel is to make this thing lock up good and tight and be precise. It all has to work together.
We will wait and see how CMMG decides to market this. Like you, I have asked but am still waiting to hear. Maybe the final decision hasn't been made yet? |
| We do realize everyone wants to know the pricing for this system, unfortunately we are still going through some marketing and product evaluation protocol currently. I'm sure it will be announced as soon as we can after these procedures are completed. Thanks for the interest and patience. |
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OK, it was a rushed day and a major wreck blocked the road to the range but with several detours I did finally get there to do some 50 yard testing.
The weather was pleasant but we had gusting winds at Knob Creek. And then I had some "big guns" next to me that would cause me to miss a shot or two. Still yet in the little time I had I did get a few decent strings. Oh, and no flies or big bugs today to use as targets. I guess the wind blew them away! Here is some CCI Std. Vel. I was using to zero in the scope. Not the best group I shot but not bad all things considered under the circumstances. 
Then I broke out my limited supply of better ammo and shot some of these. The circles are 1/2" in diameter....to make it easy for you to visualize the groups. Stuck a ruler and a casing in there for quick reference. These are three shot groups. Sometimes, as on the right, I get lucky and poke two through the same hole. 
And another sample with different ammo. 
I was fighting the noise, the wind, and being rushed so I don't feel so bad. I know this rifle can shoot well if I can hold 1/2" or less under the circumstances. I still need a better rest as my rear sand bag crapped out and sprung a leak. It would help to have it to rest the rear of the stock on. With zeroing the scope for 50 yards and just warming up myself and the rifle today I got to fire about 150 rounds of various brands of ammo. NO bulk, all good stuff like CCI, Wolf, RWS, Eley, etc. I am happy to report zero functioning problems of any sort. The rifle was cleaned and lightly oiled before today's outing. I used a standard CMMG non-BHOA magazine. I like this rifle. |
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I talked with PROTOSNYPER today. We discussed the difficulties involved with outdoor, 100 yard testing. No new news about availability yet.
I'm unsure where things stand as far as having the parts available to build more of these.. Think they're still working on pricing this upper to keep it affordable. The TANGO's the most accurate 22 I've seen outside of a very, very good 10/22 or a bolt gun... Spike's / Ballistic Advantage, 18" Bull Barrel tested
similarly well but it was quite expensive... Dave S |
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I went shooting with Ron Williams, His Brother and Scott Yesterday. Started shooting the Tango at 100 yards with Winchester and Federal Bulk
Ammo. I never had so much fun shooting a 22 at 100 yards in my life. Ron's brother had a ProMag Drum for his 22 and it was a POS. I don't know that he ever got it to feed. He gave it up and was watching in amazement. I was hitting pieces of orange clays about the size of silver dollars and smaller every time. He told Ron and me to see about getting him a TANGO Upper. Said he was taking the ProMag Drum back and giving his 10/22 to his son. We found a large weed growing on the 100 yard mound and annihilated it. Actually cut the stem at the base. Put up targets and did a couple groups with the bulk ammo, produced the groups shown. Awesome for the bulk ammo. I cleaned the upper and bolt, switched over to match ammo for some real testing. I shot some Wolf MT at more pieces of junk on the ground to get the scope set for the slower match ammo. Switched over to Eley MT and took aim at one of the targets. First and only shot shown below. The rounds wouldn't chamber. Cleaned the bore again and switched back to Wolf but to no avail. Still wouldn't chamber. Swapped mags to a BDM X-Form, still no go. Fiddled around for a while but nothing was working. So I gave it up and moved on to shooting my Glocks...
I'll call CMMG today but I think the wax on the match bullets is where the problem lies. Believe some real polishing on that match chamber and feed ramp will correct the trouble... Semi Chrome Polish Works Wonders... Still, Great groups were achieved with cheapo bulk ammo. I didn't have one of my better scopes on, a GI Trigger is in this lower and I was using the bipod, no rifle sled. IMHO, Amazing Accuracy for the conditions. I'll go back at it next trip with the stuff that'll really give a measure of the accuracy potential. Dave S 
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I went shooting with Ron Williams, His Brother and Scott Yesterday. I am jealous at this sentence alone. Not to mention the fact that you have a Tango. MAHA Ron's a Genius, Scott's Amazing, Ron's Brother was all over every shot I made with the TANGO. BTW, The Range Owner is a True Unsung Hero for all the good he does for Wounded Warriors and so much more. He is truly an Awesome Person. If you ever make it to Fl., Let me Know and we'll see if we can't set something up.... Dave in Florida |
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Thanks for the update!
I'm really hoping that they can get this out before the holidays. I'd like to do some apple seed shooting this coming year, and this upper would be perfect for that. I'm not really concerned with price. If they can get it out the door in a decent config for 700-800 I'm in for one. If it's down in the 600 range I might try to pick up a pair (1 as a gift). It seems that it's getting VERY hard to find some of the more popular dedicated uppers in stock. Here is to hoping we will see this shipping to the masses soon! |
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Dave and all:
I was away on our WW2 LST the past few weeks so have not been able to keep up. Finally got home this weekend and would like to get some more range time in with this upper seeing what can be done at 100 yards. Trouble is this coming weekend is the Machine Gun Shoot at my range, Knob Creek. So, while I would love to get out there and get some trigger time in there will be a slight delay as more pressing things get taken care of. I am hoping to see John and all the fine CMMG folks at Knob Creek on Friday if all goes well. Maybe I can get some more answers on how things are going with this upper. Dave, as for your feed problems, I have not experienced this. I did have some early issues but it was with one cheap brand of ammo in the wrong magazine. Once I switched back to the old style CMMG non-BHOA magazine and used quality ammo the rifle has functioned 100% over and over. It is a match chamber and they do fit tightly. I had similar results on a Ruger 10/22 rifle I have with a Green Mountain barrel with the Bentz chamber. She's tight and can be finicky if not feed properly, but she shoots wonderfully when cared for properly. |
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I talked with PS at CMMG and we pretty well determined that the Semi Chrome with a mop and variable speed drill should do the trick.
I was using the old style magazines and the BDM X-Form as a back up. Found that the wax from the Eley ammo was packing up on the feed ramp, aparently in just one shot of Eley. I didn't totally break the upper down while at the range so I was missing a good cleaning of the ramp. My bad. Eley is coming off my list of ammos to try.
I've remade the set up. Put my most radical lower on. One that Spike's built for me to use with the Spike's / Ballistic Advantage 18" Bull Barrel. It has a Wilson Combat 3 lb trigger and lots of other nice features. I swore this would never leave my RMW Xtreme 45 Win Mag but I've got to see just how Badd Ass'd this TANGO can be. I also swapped a scope, 4-16x40. My eyes are getting worse and I really need new glasses again so I'm gonna take every advantage I can...
Dave S Before Christmas is a huge question mark at this point, We're still looking for any bugs, like the Eley Ammo. |
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I went shooting with Ron Williams, His Brother and Scott Yesterday. I am jealous at this sentence alone. Not to mention the fact that you have a Tango. MAHA Ron's a Genius, Scott's Amazing, Ron's Brother was all over every shot I made with the TANGO. BTW, The Range Owner is a True Unsung Hero for all the good he does for Wounded Warriors and so much more. He is truly an Awesome Person. If you ever make it to Fl., Let me Know and we'll see if we can't set something up.... Dave in Florida I was out there this summer. Visiting Family in Panama City. Saw by best friend in Gainsville. Next time I am out that way. I will let you know. MAHA ETA: Does Scott do t-shirt printing? If so I have meet him at a FSN shoot 4 or 5 years ago. Good guy, |
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SpecOps and I chatted on the phone tonight. Good to hear from Dave and catch up. We were talking about this upper and I was thinking of his problem. We got into head space and he measured his bolt face for me. Our rifles vary slightly in this area. His head space was .007" looser than mine. Would this make a difference? At first glance I would think the rifle with the tighter head space would be more likely to "gum up". But, the feed ramp is another area and its not practical to compare the rifles when we are so far apart. The uppers we have are samples. They are not finished production rifles and as such we probably have some variations in them. While these might be small in size they could be enough to matter under certain conditions. So, we just need to test more. Next week when the Machine Gun Shoot is over I will be back at the range working on 100 yard testing on this upper. I am looking forward to seeing how it does both from an accuracy and a dependability stand point. So far I have had the best of luck with my sample. In the end we may need to compare some more details between the two rifles to see if there is something that can be improved. Of course in a perfect world we would both show up at the same range on the same day and shoot ammo from the same batch.
Meanwhile we will just keep shooting these things with the widest range of ammo and see how they do. So far I am impressed. |
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I polished on the feed ramp, had some machine marks. Some are still slightly visible but it's a mirror now. Polished the bolt face and chamber too.
I took some before pictures of what I could and will post before / after when I'm satisfied. I'm gonna hand cycle Eley Match later to see. Added: I don't have any idea if Scott does T-Shirts. He has some Awesome Firearms though. Gainesville is almost close to Ron and myself. 132 miles to St. Pete. Great talk last night, I need to call shadowcop one night too. Dave S Pictures added: 1: Before doing anything to the feed ramp. 2: Tools I used. 3. After polishing the bolt contact face, ramp. Couldn't get a picture of the chamber to turn out. 
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Rumor that the barrel and bolt will be available soon. That combination is supposed to be available first.
Last range trip, I shot 1, 5 shot group just over 3/4" and one just under 1/2" at 100 yards.with Federal Lightning Ammo... ????????? we're still investigating how and why that happened so I'm not going to show the targets yet. Match Ammo's did not do that well and we're still investigating.
Added Note: The match ammo is roughly 200 fps slower... Dave S |
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Thanks for the updates guys - I'm very much looking forward to getting my hands on a tango. I have to get myself the rest of the parts for an upper so I can put one together when they become available!
Also - the great reported accuracy with bulk ammo is a major selling point for me. Out of curiosity - do you happen to know where cmmg is sourcing the barrel blanks from? |
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The barrel is machined in the USA.... It is the best, most consistent I've ever seen, bar none, with the right ammo.
As far as the Blanks, only God and CMMG know for sure and I have just a small clue. I can't share even that.
I have never plinked at 100 yards with a 22, using crap ammo and hit what I'm shooting at nearly 100% of the time. $20,00 a box ammo shoots like bulk and $2,00 a box ammo shoots like Super Ultra Match Ammo. It totally defies all logic. I'll accept it but I'll never understand it fully.
Dave S |
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We do not share secrets. We shoot for too many companies and it'd put us out of grace fast.....
TANGO, Soon, we're hoping too. Dave S Understandable. I wasn't sure if it was a secret or not, as it seems that many companies advertise when they use a "premium" barrel as a selling point. Not sure if CMMG ever will... but regardless it won't stop me from buying one based on your range reports! |