Most women just would never want to admit that something like blocking off the streets with armed guards had to be done, because that would mean all hell had broken lose and they were on their own. Plus, they get to thinking about friends and family that would be beyond those streets, which they don't want to do. Thats why and I hate to say this, but when S hits the fan tell the women folk to have a nice tall glass of STFU and stand out of the way. You may have a 50/50 relationship or even one where she makes the bulk of decisions in this modern day and age, but when SHTF the men are going to have to cowboy up. I've met couples sailing where the wife at home makes more money than the husband or has more employees under her, but at SEA every time the female and male fall into traditional roles in my experience. |
thug /// AR15 
thug
Thats always a tough call to make and I salute you for making it in an intelligent manner. If those guys had no reason to walk your way like heading into the station you made the right call. I always say people can play the race card, call me a jerk, or accuse me of being trigger happy, but I'll be alive.  |
Well some of the police stayed during Katrina. I believe there is a video over at youtube.com over two female officers looting the Walmart. |
Those LEOs take an oath. They take an oath to uphold and enforce the law. The LAW, because we're not a nation ruled by force of arms we are a nation ruled by the Constitution. The Constitution is what every member of our military and federal elected official takes an oath to uphold and defend with their lives if need be. The problem I have with Katrina is that so many LEOs seemed without reservation in violating our most basic and most fundamental Constitutional rights. The officers on the ground share some blame, but the bulk of the blame has to be laid at the Senior LEOs who acted without authority to suspend Civil Rights. In most cases those Civil Rights were also suspended for what seems like no logical reason whatsoever like taking firearms in door-to-door searches in an upper class neighborhood.  I would seriously like to know what type of deliberation took place prior to ordering confiscation and the seizure of individual in their own home. I do also expect officers to be there when the chips are down. A member of our miilitary can not desert his unit, because things are tough or they may have concerns about their family. They take an oath to obey the orders of their superior officers and we as a nation give LEOs a good deal of money for high school/associate degree folks along with a lot of authority. Seems to me the least an LEO can do is his duty to the best of his ability. Again though, I think it was a serious failure of the Senior Leadership to provide for a safe location where the families of officers could be taken so that they could do their job feeling confident their family was provided for. If I had it my way the Chief of Police and whoever was in charge of the other units involved in police activities would be investigated, that information would be turned over to a Federal Grand Jury, and charges filed against them if necessary. Some of these folks should probably be serving some prison time or at the very least be unable to retire with an honorable discharge and clean record. Heck this nation seems all to willing to toss in prison a Boarder Patrol Officer who may or may not have violated the Civil Rights of one drug runner or coyote, but tossing an old lady against the wall and seizing her without probable cause in her own home without consent or a warrant bring nothing???? Maybe I'm missing something here though. Thats just my two cents though. |
Interesting take on the .40S&W. It's all over the ground at the range where I shoot. I got so much at a class I took that I added it to my 10mm reloading. If there's a WallyWorld around you should be ok. Broussard's Bayou Bunker might be another matter. #12 shot out of a .38 snubnose is good for snakes. Never went to a work party at the duck club without one. |
Uh oh... I am gonna get SO flamed... But... The Constitution is an agreement between men. It is no better or worse than any other such agreement. It is no more or less durable than any other such agreement. It is a special document, insofar as it defines the raw basis of our society, but it does not have arms or legs and The Constitution has no power to do anything or to enforce anything. We are not ruled by The Constitution. We have agreed, as a nation of men, to attempt to live to this ideal - but this agreement frequently goes squirrley...
No, not so many. Looking at it from a distance, through the filter of popular media, it seemed like a total cluster screw, but I did not experience the level of widespread abuses that the news would lead you to believe. Guns confiscated? It's no lie. It happened. Happened a lot more than it should have, but it was in a fairly concentrated area of the affected region.
I doubt that there was any deliberation. The order just came down. I agree with you that the burden for this lies on the leadership - which was damn poor just about everywhere. An interesting aside is that the best leadership was at the bottom. That is, in my city, the Mayor and Police Chief were 100% satisfactory to just about 100% of the citizens. Mayor Johnson and Chief Dale were fantastic. Leadership at the parish (county) level was weak. Leadership at the state level was a cluster screw of epic proportions... When SHTF, look to your local guys for guidance. The people at the state capital all have their heads up their asses.
Your expectation is simply unreasonable. LEOs are not military, and in this state, they are any other government employee. They can quit when they want to. Military can't quit... Yes, they take an oath, and I would expect them to uphold their oath to the best of their ability. All LEO are local. They experienced the disaster just like anyone else, and were affected just like anyone else. I don't care where I am or what I am doing; if my wife calls me in hysterics and says, "The water is coming in the house, and the girls are crying, and I don't know what to do!", I am going home. When I take an oath - any oath - I say that I will pass through fire and water to uphold that oath. For my wife and daughters, however, I will move heaven and earth. My oath to my family is stronger than my oath to strangers.
I would have settled for that, but the National Guard should have been in St. Bernard, Plaquemines, Orleans, and South Jefferson Parishes, and local LEO should have been relieved. There is no excuse for why this did not happen except a failure of leadership at the top - which we agree on.
We certainly agree there. The Chief of Orleans 'retired' in short order. I don't expect that very much will come out of anything, despite a few pending lawsuits. People just didn't stay made enough long enough.
You're missing the 'state of emergency' which to most people adds a color of, 'that's OK, it was an emergency', which is all screwed up... State of Emergency is when we MOST need the ideals declared in the Constitution. When it comes down to it, Might Makes Right. The Constitution is Right because we have codified and established the Might to enforce it. In the absence of Right, We The People have to step up and provide the Might. Remember clearly: We defend the Constituion. It does not defend us. This is a mistake that I think a lot of people - even people on ArfCom make. Shane |
I have that video saved somewhere, and I have to admit that I laugh my ass off every time I see it. Those ladies - and I use the term loosely - were subsiquently fired from the department. I'm sure that if I continue this post, I'll violate the COC... Shane |
.40 is becoming more and more popular. We were definitely short here for a time. YMMV. I stick with 9mm and .45 on the simple fact that I really can walk into many rural dime stores and buy them. .10 mm, I have never seen. .40 is becoming, like I said, more common. I'll still stick with the 9 and 45, but I'm not going to actively discourage anyone from a different choice.
Tarus is making a .410 revolver, and that would be pretty handy. A stick, though, works really well. Snakes aren't very durable creatures... Alligators being a different story entirely... Shane |
Most women just would never want to admit that something like blocking off the streets with armed guards had to be done, because that would mean all hell had broken lose and they were on their own. Plus, they get to thinking about friends and family that would be beyond those streets, which they don't want to do. Thats why and I hate to say this, but when S hits the fan tell the women folk to have a nice tall glass of STFU and stand out of the way. You may have a 50/50 relationship or even one where she makes the bulk of decisions in this modern day and age, but when SHTF the men are going to have to cowboy up. I've met couples sailing where the wife at home makes more money than the husband or has more employees under her, but at SEA every time the female and male fall into traditional roles in my experience. Unfortunatley it seems to be my observation as well. Sometimes I'm embarrassed to be a female. I work in a female dominated workplace and have to associate with people I normally would not associate with and hear thier thoughts and opinions on things like security safty and disasters and such. At best they will do almost anything to prepare for an emergency except anticipating bad motives from fellow humans. OMG don't even think about suggesting having a firearm just in case. I actually have given up on that subject, I don't bother bringing it up. They act like being a victim is preferable to putting up an attempt to resist. But I hate to say it, their husbands aren't any better. In many cases (not all) their pacifist mentality comes from their husbands. They seem to want their wives to be helpless. Calling 911 and getting a security system is the best course of action. Great thread by the way! |
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Great info, ShaneS. You mentioned some disadvantages to generators. I know noise is one, (both attracting attention and making communications, the whistles hard to hear) but what others were you thinking of? I also appreciate the understanding you have that at some point, emergency workers are going to have to tend to their own homes and families, lest they lose them. I am a cop in one of America's largest cities. I work an inner-city precinct, so I figure in any kind of SHTF, where I work will be bad before where I live is, unless there is a small tornado or something. If it is severe or long enough, though, it will affect my own neighborhood. At some point, I will have to stop working 12 or 16 hour days and attend to my own home and family, especially if my home suffers damage. My wife works part time in the mornings (accountant), and I work evenings. We have two very young children. Throwing them in the mix, what happens if there is a major SHTF and my wife doesn't come home? I can impose on neighbors to watch them for a while, but what if she still hasn't come home for, say, a couple of days? If my home is damaged, do I abandon it, or can I spend a couple of days fixing it to the point that it will remain livable? I will do my duty as long and as I can as best I can, but at some point, one has to be realistic. I think it is interesting that ShaneS, who went through Katrina, is understanding of that. |
I've actually had to work an emergency where the NG was called in. They were really great and all that but they were pretty insistent that they weren't cops and didn't want to be. When faced with any kind of decision that even smelled like a law enforcement issue they'd just look at me and wait. I had the badge, the loaded gun, and the arrest authority. They had some really cool off-road vehicles, hot chow, and a can-do attitude that made all the difference. If I had been faced with the prospect of having to leave the job to tend to my family, my best bet is that a group of them would have immediately jumped in to do whatever they could to get them to safety on my behalf. Shoot, we had guys just standing around waiting for some kind of mission. We are a nation of citizens. Our laws are enforced by civil authorities, not soldiers. If that means peace officers have to work extra during times of trouble, so be it. J. |
Noise is one. Two is being an 'attractive nuisance'. Looters like to steal generators. A generator broadcasts, 'Hey! There are people here with stuff to steal!' Several families died as a result of trying to protect their generators by running them INSIDE THE HOUSE! This, of course, causes carbon monoxide poisoning...etc... So, you have to run them outside. Number three is that generators create and involve various dangers. You have to fuel them, and there are the dangers involved in handling fuel. They get hot. They generate electricity (duh!), which can be, obviously dangerous. People frequently do not know that you should not plug them directly into your house, and linemen who are trying to fix the power lines have be injured and killed. Number four is that a generator is resource intensive and of questionable benefit. You have to fuel it, which means that you have to acquire and store fuel. When the fuel runs out, the generator is any other hunk of worthless machinery. The benefit of a generator is very questionable. You can keep your refrigerator cold, run some lights, and perhaps run a small air conditioner. Unless you have someone with specific medical needs, NOTHING you get out of a generator is a first order survival priority. It's all comfort and convenience. Generators do have some short term utility. You can run tools, for instance, and running lights might be critical sometimes. Saving all the food in your refrigerator and freezer is a benefit, but if you have to run that generator for days on end, the cost of the fuel quickly out-strips the cost of the food you're saving. It's a false return for the investment. I have heard several people say that they can't live without their air conditioning (like my wife...), but that's just weak. People lived here in the dead of summer long before electricity and air conditioning were invented. If you let your body acclimate to the heat, you will be quite comfortable. Take a cold shower and sleep nude... All of this applies to small, portable, 'personal' generators. I might be willing to run a large diesel generator to power the entirety of a large building if it would benefit a large number of people. I have a few clients who run such a setup for their businesses, but those are folks that need to be operational 24*7*365. The bottom line, though, is that generators aren't a wise investment, IMO, for SHTF. Generators are a very short term strategy to improve comfort level, but are worthless for long term survival and reconstruction. For what you spend on the generator, the support equiptment for that generator, and for fuel, you could buy other more durable solutions - like battery powered LED lights.
That's one of those million dollar questions...and the answer depends on the circumstances at the time. A hurricane is a nuclear bomb that goes off over a 24 hour period. A hurricane is also a known quantity. You can see it coming days away, and if you live in a zone affected by hurricanes, then your house should be prepared to take the worst of them. I lost half my roof not to the hurricane, but to a small tornado. If I hadn't lost the roof, my home would have been completely undamaged. At some point, the levees broke, and water started rising. One of the reasons that I bought this house was because I had projected rising flood waters, and I know that my neighborhood is relatively high. We did not take rising flood water. I have seen first hand, though, what water like that means. At some point, your house really is just a total loss. There is a progression. Hurricane damage (usually minor), water in the streets (an inconvenience), water in your house (varying degrees of severity), your house under water up to the ceiling (total loss). Of course, my particular scenario is very unique to this area. I have been thinking about the California fires. It's one thing to have your neighborhood flooded, and to defend your neighborhood while you put the pieces back together - but what the hell do you do when your neighborhood is ON FIRE!? Uh... So I think that you have to consider the gradual severity of conditions based on the likely scenarios that you will face, and to make a game card based on the possibilities. For my entire life, I have stayed when hurricanes threatened. For Katrina, though, I had to now consider my wife, and my two daughters (5 years and 3 months at the time). I decided that evacuating was prudent for them, so we went. I also returned as fast as I could to perform damage control. As it turns out, we were really lucky. If I'd have been one of the folks in an area that had been completely destroyed, I'd likely have abandoned the property. Shane |
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I got my generator after a power outage one winter. About 24 hours for me, but 8 days for some. We have gas heat, but need power for the furnace fan to blow the heat throughout the house. It got mighty cold in here without power. I live in Ohio. I agree a gas powered generator is more of a temporary solution, but most SHTF events are relatively short lived. I think you mentioned some good concerns, though. |
Our laws are enforced by The People, acting collectively, through the mechanisms of civil government...but going there is going to drift way off topic... The way I see it, there are various levels of emergency and disaster, and the appropriate response is going to vary based on many factors. In a small-scale disaster like 9/11, there isn't really any reason to consider taking local LEO off the front line. When something is large-scale enough to call in the NG, then we need to start thinking differently. Remember that the NG is The Militia. (I know... I know... But let's not go there...) If it has gotten bad enough to call in the militia, then some crap is hitting the fan. Hmmm... This is going to get long... In a wide scale disaster like Katrina, or any other situation where the normal order has broken down, there are some given stages. The first stage is complete chaos. Everybody is looking out for #1. The situation quickly progresses one of two ways. Either we (collectively) are working towards restoring the normal order, or we (collectively) slide into TEOTWAWKI (or some similar level of uncontrollable anarchy.) We have to ask the questions, "What is the best allocation of resources? Where do people need to be? What do people need to be doing?" Let's ignore the TEOTWAWKI stuff, because obviously you aren't going to be on duty at that point. You're too busy fighting off zombies to bother. The best way to restore normalcy is to have people in their own neighborhoods working to establish security and restore their homes, lives, and communities to normal function. I read a lot of stuff on boards like this one where people wonder what kind of guns, ammo, food, water, etc. they need to stockpile - but nobody ever thinks about what they will do to work towards the establishment of a working society. What do you stockpile to ensure that you can put civilization back together again? My analysis is that the NG should have come in and we should have sent the LEOs home. I'm going to go way out on a limb here...but I've been training LE and military for a number of years now, and I think I'm qualified to speak to it. Most LEOs are NOT warriors. They go through academy, and they get a badge and a gun, but that doesn't make them something other than what they are - average people in a public service career path. Are there warriors among them? Yes, but not as many as most people would think. They should at least be given the option to go home if they want to. If they want to stay, then assign them with the Guard. (Most of the military aren't warriors either. They just happen to have taken a job that they can't quit...) Pairing the Guard with some LEOs is a benefit, like you say. Local cops are going to know the area, know the populace, and understand the natural order of things in their communities. But... LEOs are civilians, and they should be working with the civilian populations in their own neighborhoods to organize for the restoration of normalcy. If you force them to be on duty - or threaten them with discharge if they don't perform - then you risk them becoming psychological casualties. We had a LOT of that among the Orleans officers. Remember when an officer grabbed a reporter, screamed at him and shoved him? That kind of thing and worse. A lot worse. Cops are people too, and in a widespread disaster, they are affected in the exact same way that the general population is affected. LEOs need to be home, not just for their own sakes, but for the sakes of their wives, children, and neighbors, who all *need* them. A lot of discussion surrounds the physical - homes and property - but we also have to give a lot of consideration to the psychological needs of people. My wife works in mental health, and there are a very large number of people who suffer greatly from stress related psychological issues related to the storm even today. Suicide rates here are still very high. Many people, police officers included, took their own lives during and immediately after the storm at a shocking rate. I have experienced first hand what the widespread destruction of their cities does to LEOs. I've had 'em crying in my arms. It's hard to take. If you are going to call out the militia, USE them. If nothing else they need to be there as a psychological reinforcement for LEOs. "It's OK, brother, we're gonna cover you." We need to have those LEOs working at the level of their immediate community to restore order neighborhood by neighborhood, block by block. For the most part, NG won't need to do very much in the way of normal policing. All the NG need to do is keep the peace. They don't need to ticket speeders, or any of that kind of thing. They need to maintain general security, and that's about all. If the citizenry are doing their part, most neighborhoods are going to be secure and crime free except for the odd-ball idiot who gets bored on Friday night. After some time - not even all that long, maybe a week or three - those LEO who are willing and able can start to come back on general patrol with the continued support of the Guard. Eventually, as things are more and more normal, the Guard can start pulling out and local LEO can resume their rightful place in the order of things, keeping the peace. A city and its suburbs are a continuous network of essential services. Water, electricity, gas, sewer, hospitals, gas stations, food stores, etc. When disaster strikes (or zombies rise...) all of those things go to crap. Looking at it from an integrated services standpoint, it's impossible to put Humpty Dumpty back together again. What you have to do is break down that continuous network into manageable chunks. Block by block, street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood, you establish order. Once order is established, then we can work on those essential services. What is it going to take to get the power on, the gas flowing, the toilets flushing, and all that jazz? You have to start in individual neighborhoods, and having local LEOs working in their own neighborhoods is where they are going to do the most good most of the time in the short term. There are other essential service personell that are very similar. Firemen, for instance. Same thing. Affected areas need to use the volunteer resources (in addition to the Guard) that flow into a disaster area to the most effect. Unfortunately stories that FEMA delayed or prevented the arrival of such volunteers are common. Speaking of FEMA... FEMA is not your friend. The primary job of the military, FEMA, and Homeland Security is not to protect the American people in times of emergency but to protect the government in times of emergency and keep it functioning. Their primary assignment is not to help people but to control them. I'm not going to get into that deeply, but for a good overview see this link. When SHTF, the primary locus of recovery is entirely local. The Federal and State authorities are going to be posing for news cameras while you suffer. FEMA is going to be mucking about dicking up as much as possible - so much that you will think they are doing it on purpose. The Guard will come in, and assuming it has good leadership, will fill the breach. All of the Guard that I encountered and/or had dealings with were 100% fantastic. I'd go out of my way to thank them every time. Local authorities are going to have their hands full. If something goes wrong, you are likely on your own. If you can handle something on your own, handle it. Don't add to the burden. If FEMA shows up and starts giving assinine orders, ignore them. If they show up and offer you help - actuall have it there in their hands trying to give it to you - then take it. If they *promise* you something, they are lying dogs. That's actually, to my mind, the primary hinderace of the reconstruction in New Orleans. The Feds came down here and promised us that they would do whatever it takes to help us rebuild. So, what did folks do? They stood around with their hands out waiting for help. The Feds should have done one of two things. They should either have provided the help they promised, or they should have said, "Sorry. We're not going to do anything. You're on your own." If they'd have done that, then people would have gotten up off their lazy butts and started working...but I'm starting to go on a rant, so I'll quit. To go back to the begining:
During times of trouble, we *all* have to work extra. We The People *are* the nation, and it's up to us to put our own neighborhoods and communities back together. We should all be preapred to do that. Shane |
Wow Shane, that's a long (but good) post!
This would seem to be one of the serious problems that State governments and LE agencies should take a lesson from regarding hurricane Katrina. LE agencies around the country volunteered officers, which is good, but some came from states with a RADICALLY different view regarding individual rights, which turned out very bad. If LEO's volunteering to help in such a major crisis could be drawn from within other areas of the state unaffected by the SHTF event, that would limit the heavy handed approach that corrupted the efforts of out-of-state LEO's post Katrina. NY or California LE doctrine doesn't automatically transfer across state lines very well, even though the individual officers had the best of intentions, their best efforts became moot in light of their harsh confiscatory tactics. The more personnel that can be drawn from within the state that is experiencing the crisis, the greater the appearance that the state has the situation under control, which in turn helps calm the overall population. Calm sheep are easily herded, panicked sheep stampede over the cliff towards tragedy. Edited for typo. |
That's a good point, and I agree completely. We had some NYPD here.  As you can imagine, there was quite a difference in not just the law but in policing style. Any volunteer replacements that come from outside an area should be given very strict guidelines on what they are to be doing. Shane |
| We saw FEMA here after the flood we had in August. They told people that if they wanted assistance, to not to do anything to their homes until they had been inspected by FEMA. "Don't remove any sheetrock or siding from the houses. etc." Rather than let the molding process begin, most people said F*&% FEMA and started rebuilding. There were so many vehicles from volunteers helping in one neighborhood that you couldn't even find a place to park. It was good to see! |
That may be true in a subtropical location like yours but us northerners don't do so well in January without heat. Yes you can find alternate ways to heat your home but having electricity for your furnace is the best solution in my opinion. Also if you have a well you need power for that if you want water. I have a generator and enough gas to run it intermittently for a full winter. I have enough fuel oil for the furnace to last a winter. I also have a well so it will run that too. Your post have been great by the way, keep it up! |
You're right, I hadn't thought of those because of my location. In that case, the generator would become a priority item. When I was living in rural Ponchatoula, we had a wood stove for heat, but we'd need electricity to run the well pump. Our solution for that was to run a small pump off one of the vehicles through a converter. It worked as a short term solution. For long term, we had a pond... Shane |
We live near Boston, and when we moved into our house, I was pleased to find it had gas furnace powered steam heat, and requires no electricity to run. The gas furnace generates its own power to run it's valve, using a huge thermocouple stack (a so-called 'millivolt' system), which generates .6 volts with enough current to turn the gas on and off. It has a huge honking pilot flame, but requires no external source of power to run. If the house had a gas refrigerator, we'd be completely non-reliant on electricity. My parents just got a new gas furnace to replace their hundred year old one, and the installers had no way to make it not require electric power to operate; they have pumps in the hot water system, whereas the old system was just gravity hot water. Just one more short sighted way that our technology is gratuitously becoming less modular and decentralized. |
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+1 Shane, great posts. Re: generators. It's all geography and utility dependent. I have a well. Right now that's the only absolutely necessary thing we'll need in an extended power outage. Without water.... Unfortunately there's no easy alternative to a generator as the well pump is 1 hp, 230 volt, 2020 watt job.... For $800 I could install a manual pump (but pumping in the dead of winter would be either impossible or A REAL PITA.) For $1000 I could get a Honda tri-fuel portable gen set (gasoline, propane, natural gas)... For $2000 I could get two 40 watt solar panels, a couple deep cycle batteries, the cables, inverters, controllers, etc. and a mountain-bike contraption to generate up to 200 watts at a time to help re-charge it all.... but that's 10 hours of pedalling to power 20 minutes of well pump.... In short - there's no good options for some needs. For heat it's the same problem of scale. Everyone in Michigan has a fire place but it's vestigal - a roaring fire only heats the immediate room. I'm looking at a soapstone woodburning stove for $2500... which would conceivably heat the main floor and some of the upstairs... but again for the money I could get that tri-fuel generator and hook it to the NG line. The next home we get will be either an earthsheltered one or something so well insulated it'll require little in the way of heating and cooling... 
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| Shane, I have to tell you that without a generator, my life immediately after Katrina would have been much more difficult to bear. I had my 5000 watt generator chained to the raught iron stair rails which are embedded into the concrete stairs on the side of my house. It is also near where one of my dogs sleep. I ran it at night with a window unit, fridge, freezer, and a lamp and tv for about an hour before going to bed. It made me, my wife, our 3 kids, and a couple of brother in laws very comfortable at night. When it did go off (which happened a couple of times during the night), we were on alert. It woke us up faster than any alarm would have. We went out of an alternate door with spotlights and firearms in case anyone was trying to steal it. I would definately recommend an individual having a generator. If you choose not to run it; at least you know it is there in case you NEED to run it. Just my humble opinion from my personal experience. |
Oleg Volk has this to say on the subject: 
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Excellant thread, thanks for the long posts. As far as a generator goes, I am single and consider it a luxury. But I now have a small gas generator able to run my small window ac unit because I have a few older relatives who might not do well in a long term power outage during the summer. You can generally find ways to work around most stuff since there are so many options out there. But when the power is out I think a generator becomes very useful if you have the fuel and equipment needed to make proper use of it. It took me a long time to get a generator and this one is not a top of the line honda but just a used medium quality one. Overall I think it comes down to how someone wants to approach the problem that they are trying to solve. I agree generators have some bad points and I figure this one would only be used during the hottest part of the day and then shut down. Any battery charging or other stuff could be done at the same time. |
Like biere posted:
Which is really wise. Like I said before, I'm not going to try to discourage anyone from running one if they need it or want it, but for *me*, I don't consider it a high priority item. My wife, OTOH, would just die without AC and God forbid that my children go for a whole day without watching television... Down here in the deep south we don't have the heating issues that some have, and a lot of people can't take the heat. When I lived in rural Ponchatoula, I didn't use heat except for a wood burning stove on the coldest nights and we never used AC. The only electric I used was for the well and the fridge. Sometimes I'd wash clothes, but out there we didn't wear clothes most of the time, so there wasn't so much wash to do... Bonnin had a generator, but by the time I got home the power was on. It would go out from time to time, but it was reasonably good. The cable was out for three or four weeks, though, and Bonnin could only get one channel on TV. It was funny because at a certain time every day he would storm outside and declare, "God damn Oprah is on!"  Shane |
Now your avatar makes sense! |
He's either engaging in hyperbole or is the first admitted naturist/nudist on Arfcom. |
I never have liked clothes. My roomate and I had it worked out that washing clothes was one of the largest resource loads on our little rural experement, and since I didn't like to wear clothes anyway, it was a short step to just going nude. We were three miles down a dirt road, so it wasn't like the neighbors were going to complain... I suppose that's another survival topic that not too many people have worked out... How are you going to wash clothes? Nude living is very practical, if you have the weather for it. When I first moved into this neighborhood, I thought it was kind of odd that a lot of yards are fenced, but there are gates between the back yards. There is one on one side of my property that goes from my yard into the neighbor's yard on one side. I thought that was the only one... My neighbor Tony on the other side has a fountain in his back yard. He likes to sit back there and listen to it on Sunday mornings, and I developed the same habit. There is a 6' wooden fence between us, and my back yard is completely private, so I'd walk out in the morning and sit in the back corner of the yard. I'd say, "Good morning, Tony.", and he'd say, "Good morning." and then we'd sit in silence - he in his yard and me in mine. This goes on for some number of months when one morning, as I'm sitting there having a quiet moment, Tony's fence opens up. There is a gate in it that I never noticed before. There are some bushes that have grown out a little and concealed it. Anyway, he comes into the yard and starts talking to me, and we have a nice long conversation, and at the end of the conversation he says, "I didn't think anybody took air baths anymore." I told him that I avoided clothing whenever possible, and we had a short conversation about that. So, next Sunday, I walk out and I'm sitting in my chair having a quiet moment, and I hear Tony come out into his yard and we exchange, "Good moring.", and all is good. About 10 minutes later, I hear his door open and close, and then 5 second later, I hear Tony's wife holler, "TONY! WHERE ARE YOUR CLOTHES!?" Ah... Converts... Shane |
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Shane, you have earned much respect from me with your very sensible posts. I have been in the emergency services for 12.5 years, and seen a lot of natural disasters before that in the National Guard. I have gone in after three hurricanes, and in 94, Tropical Storm Alberto dropped 24 inches of rain in 24 hours on my community in Ga. We were without water for 4 days on that one. Most recently, in March of this year, my community survived an F3 tornado that devastated the regional hospital that I now work for. It is now condemned and we are working out of an "Urgent Care" that consists of 3 triple wide trailers. I participated in evacuation of about 100 patients, plus staff. Transportation for the patients had to be provided, along with maintaining EMS services for injuries, which, fortunately, were very low. In the next few days, chaos reigned in the lack of leadership for uniformed command over all agencies. Everybody wanted to do their own thing and the reason for that was that the prescribed Emergency Management Director was more concerned with politicing instead of working with local agencies. We did not see him except on the news with the Gov and President Bush. Law enforcement, Fire, and EMS were working under separate commands for about a week. We actually set up an emergency room in a local church 3 hours after the tornado hit and were seeing patients. I thought that was pretty good, considering the hospital was a total loss. I say all of this not to toot my own horn, but to show you that I recognize what you contributed to your situation in your neighborhood. If only the country could realize truly the 80/20 rule of 80% of the work being done by 20% of the people, it would be a better situation. I could go on about the flood, that lasted much longer than the recent tornado, and was much more a SHTF situation, but it is nothing that Shane has not covered. When the chips are down, and the stuff gets rough, it is time for the neighbors to pull together and restore their neighborhood to order, and then help other neighborhoods do the same if possible. That is the only way to get through. Do not expect outside help. It may not come, and if it does, it may not be "help". Eng208 |
3 hours is really good, even for a localized disaster. Did you have a coordinated evacuation and emergency plan? How did it go off?
What's very interesting in the lowest, most local context is that if you start giving orders, people will follow them. I have known that and used it for a long time, but it took me a little bit to recognize it in my own context. Bonnin started giving orders, and I started following them. Not nececarily because he knew what he was doing or because he knew better than me what needed doing, but because it was simply *easier* to follow the orders and do the doing. In order to get lazy people (the 80%) moving on an immediate level, all you usually have to do is call them on it. "Hey, you! Yeah, you! You're not doing anything right now. Go do XYZ. I'll come check on you in a little bit." The #1 rule of leadership is to lead. It doesn't nececarily matter if you are right all the time, as long as you are doing something. Work also keeps people's minds off their troubles... If they feel like they're helping, it's good for their psycology too.
There is a very key phrase that is important to remember when dealing with external 'authority' at almost any level during a disaster. The key phrase is, "Fuck you." You don't often use that phrase exactly, and sometimes you have to go about it in a nice, roundabout way, but always keep in your mind that you are saying, "Fuck you." YOU know what you need, and YOU know what needs done in your immediate area of influence. DO it, and don't dick around with the little men who come around with clip boards. If they want to put resources in your hands, take them. Whatever it is, take it. Even if you don't need it or know anybody else who needs it, take it anyway. We took and pooled as much stuff as we could get. MREs, water, tarps, everything we could get. We used very little of it. As time went on, though, we'd hear about someone who needed something, and PRESTO, they had it. As we got more normal, we started making runs down to more heavily devastated areas and helped as many people as we could. There were some folks that would NEVER have taken anything from anybody, and we knew where those people were, and we knew when to show up with what they needed and drop it off. I took all the money FEMA gave me, all the money from Red Cross, and started taking donations of money and things from people off the internet who were all wanting to do something for someone specific. (I have a lot of online friends...) With that money, I was able to support a LOT of families along the way in a REAL way. (The only portion of that money I used for myself was to buy two Glocks, because buying guns with government money was too sweet to pass up. In the end, I distributed more money out of savings than I spent on the Glocks, so I guess it broke even...) Bottom line, take the resources. If they want to come in and help - actually help - then let them do that. If they start pissing you off, remember the key phrase. When they come around wanting staticstics and crap, given them what they need, and then hit them with the key phrase. Knowing when to do this is important. Any time they start to interfere with progress, move 'em along. When orders come down from on high that are irrelevant, make no sense, or are outright assinine, ignore them. I could give you a lot of case examples, but it's pretty obvious when it happens. Shane |
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Once again, your are right on everything. I stockpiled everything I could get my hands on that I thought my agency "might" need. We had a small but very good distribution center set up that was vital in continuing needs of the community. Outside surrounding agencies assisted us in supplies and ambulances. Two of ours were destroyed in the tornado. We are still working with a secondary contract ambulance service now since any patient that needs admission to a hospital has to be transported to a facility 35 miles away. We are at 4700 calls for this year, and that does not count 3 weeks post tornado that is not accounted for in the numbers. In a situation like the two main ones I have been in, there are plenty of people "willing" to help, there just are very few people that know how to distribute that help efficiently. That is what I see occurred post Katrina. There were all sorts of supplies and assistance, but noone could direct it to where it could be utilized like it needed to be. Good luck in everything in the future, it sounds like you have a very good understanding of what it takes. Forgot to add, about the evac plan, the hospital was supposed to be a "hardened shelter". Destroy it and there goes your plan, right with the tornado. We did get everybody down to the ER ambulance entrance that was non ambulatory(couldn't walk), everybody remotely ambulatory was taken to the ER patient entrance. They were taken out on school buses. We had to coordinate with the GSP to find what roads were open and then get the ambulances on the road to take the nonambulatory pts to the hospitals. Some went to hospitals 70 miles away. We wound up with a few flats from debris, but it was much better than I would have thought. One thing we did do was tell everyone that came offering assistance that they would have to be self sufficient on their supplies. Our hospital stock room was destroyed, and all we could salvage were some bandages and other first aid stuff. I was pretty surprised by how fast we had assistance, the first ambulance showed up from the east side neighboring county in about 1 hr. They had pretty much open roads. The roads from the north were completely blocked, south partially blocked and west, the way I came in, were pretty much blocked. I know the area well, and had to drive down some side streets and through a few yards to get into the hospital. Never forget that not all power lines on the ground are dead and can kill you too. Eng208 Didn't mean to hijack the thread, but enjoyed reading every bit of it. Everybody can learn from what Shane has to say. |
Werd!!!! Shane you need to start writing a no bullshit, pullin no punches book on surviving a a real SHTF situation based on your experience. I think a bunch of people would be real interested in your wisdom. I know I would! |
Shane and everyone, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us all on your experiences. You've definitely answered a boatload of questions that I had, living in hurricane country as well. Fantastic information in this thread. writer |
+100 some of the best shit I've read on this forum so far. Real world experiences. A "Lights out" for NOLA |
I hope I can grow up to be like Bonnin someday. |
I like this Bonnin dude! We need a guy like that for our neighborhood.
Reminds me of an example that comes close to home for me. My dad and great uncle (who was US Marshal at the time) were helping someone move in SF many years ago. My dad had just come down stairs from the apartment with some rope in his hands (they'd just carried up a fridge) when a man *of certain background* walked out of an alley towards my dad with a metal pipe in his hands. The man with a pipe made it very clear as he approached that he meant my dad significant bodily harm. Dad was quickly trying to think how to defend himself with the rope when the thug stopped, yelled out some apology/excuse, and took off running. Dad turned around to find my great uncle aiming his revolver at the thug. |
Agree 100%. + more 
Soon to be published! The Exploits of Shane Naked during hurricane Katrina!  
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I wanted to let ya'll know that I haven't abandoned this thread. I'll come back and reply to ya'll in a day or three. I've got a wicked sinus infection that's turning into an upper respiratory thing and my brain is fuzzy a lot. Probably time to hit the stash of anti-biotics... Shane |
Whoops! He answered my questions about disposal in later pages of the thread. Just finished the entire 6 pages. Great read! So, would you suggest buying a couple SKS' for the neighbors who do not have firearms and a couple tins of ammo? Something simple, rugged, easy to use and maintain? Do you ever ask your neighbors to go shooting with you, now? |
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