Posted: 9/6/2013 7:36:54 PM EDT
This is to power my she 16 x 25 Some heat, small air comp, a few outlets. What would I need for solar, as this is the rookie ready set Go
An help suggestions etc..... I need/want power out there also it's about a 2-300 foot run just for the service caable so thats some $$$ Hep me decide 
|
|
Personally, I'd be inclined to cough up the money for a sub panel.
A stand-alone solar system requires regular battery maintenance - and occasional battery replacement. That's a lot of upkeep for a shed that only sees occasional use. If the solar system could also be used to pipe AC power to the rest of the house during an emergency, it might be a more attractive prospect - but even then, you'd still need to run a cable from the shed to the house in order to do it. |
| I ran 60 amp to my garage. About 50ft of 6-3 UF-B but it was a pita because of the way my yard is laid out. under walks and such. After years of bullshit, extension cords and nonsense. I wouldn't hesitate to do it again. If its a run across easy ground and u don't have to dig under stuff. it will be cake with a machine. |
|
Quoted:
Thanks guys I'm not sure but I think the 3thhn is 2-3 bux a foot x 3 for 220 yikes I'm tired to THHN has to be run in conduit, and can't be run underground, even in conduit. However, most THHN is also dual rated as THWN, which can be put in conduit, underground. If you don't mind a few poles in your yard, you could run it from poles. AL wire of the appropriate size is going to be a lot more cost effective than copper. If you have a typical residential 120/240 3 wire system you will need 3 wires and a ground. |
|
Quoted:
THHN has to be run in conduit, and can't be run underground, even in conduit. However, most THHN is also dual rated as THWN, which can be put in conduit, underground. If you don't mind a few poles in your yard, you could run it from poles. AL wire of the appropriate size is going to be a lot more cost effective than copper. If you have a typical residential 120/240 3 wire system you will need 3 wires and a ground. Quoted:
Quoted:
Thanks guys I'm not sure but I think the 3thhn is 2-3 bux a foot x 3 for 220 yikes I'm tired to THHN has to be run in conduit, and can't be run underground, even in conduit. However, most THHN is also dual rated as THWN, which can be put in conduit, underground. If you don't mind a few poles in your yard, you could run it from poles. AL wire of the appropriate size is going to be a lot more cost effective than copper. If you have a typical residential 120/240 3 wire system you will need 3 wires and a ground. Thanks I may look into the AL and I will double check the specs if thats the way I go. I may go solar just to get my feet wet, hell just the wire alone is 4 figures 
|
| I built a workshop at our place and I went with a 60 amp box. I did all the rough out work myself and just had an electrician come out for the inspection and hook up of main lines. I have 1 220v for my air compressor and 8 110v outlets for misc stuff. The only really hard part was digging that 18" trench to run the power line from the workshop to the house. That was something I sure did not consider fun but by doing that myself... I probably saved some serious bucks. |
|
Quoted:
I built a workshop at our place and I went with a 60 amp box. I did all the rough out work myself and just had an electrician come out for the inspection and hook up of main lines. I have 1 220v for my air compressor and 8 110v outlets for misc stuff. The only really hard part was digging that 18" trench to run the power line from the workshop to the house. That was something I sure did not consider fun but by doing that myself... I probably saved some serious bucks. PVC? might as well have dug it another 6 inches and run UF cable. or just 6 inches and put it in rigid. hand digging is no fun, but you can rent a trencher for not a whole lot to do the hard work for you. |
|
Quoted:
Do you really need that much power out there? The air compressor will be a lot more manageable if it runs on 240 VAC instead of 120. Heat could be handled with propane or kerosine instead of electricity. Yea my backup TIG welder is going in there so at times I'll need it, there is a portable 14 x 28 also that will need light at some point the solar was more of a testing / play around to get a feel for it. |
|
Quoted:
If the cost of wire is bothering you, don't even look at solar for a serious sized system. I look at it for what I'm getting, if I need to spend 2000 dollars just to put the wire in the ground to me thats a lot diferent than spending 2000 dollars on a nice panel ,inverter and Batteries for a starter package. Something that keeps giving for years. 
|
|
Quoted:
I look at it for what I'm getting, if I need to spend 2000 dollars just to put the wire in the ground to me thats a lot diferent than spending 2000 dollars on a nice panel ,inverter and Batteries for a starter package. Something that keeps giving for years. Quoted:
Quoted:
If the cost of wire is bothering you, don't even look at solar for a serious sized system. I look at it for what I'm getting, if I need to spend 2000 dollars just to put the wire in the ground to me thats a lot diferent than spending 2000 dollars on a nice panel ,inverter and Batteries for a starter package. Something that keeps giving for years. A $2000 PV system is not going to give you anywhere near the juice of a 100 amp panel. I suspect you will find that such a system won't even run your air compressor for more than a few minutes a day if that. In any case, AL wire will be about 25-30% of the cost of copper for the current required. You will only need about 600 feet of #1 copper, and about 200 feet of #6 copper to serve as a ground. I suspect you can get that for considerably less than $2000 if you look around closely. really you need to look closely at your actual needs and run only that much wire if the cost is an issue. 100A is a lot of juice,especially for a 3 wire 240/120 system. maybe only run 120V out there and thus only 2 wires. |
|
Quoted:
A $2000 PV system is not going to give you anywhere near the juice of a 100 amp panel. I suspect you will find that such a system won't even run your air compressor for more than a few minutes a day if that. In any case, AL wire will be about 25-30% of the cost of copper for the current required. You will only need about 600 feet of #1 copper, and about 200 feet of #6 copper to serve as a ground. I suspect you can get that for considerably less than $2000 if you look around closely. really you need to look closely at your actual needs and run only that much wire if the cost is an issue. 100A is a lot of juice,especially for a 3 wire 240/120 system. maybe only run 120V out there and thus only 2 wires. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If the cost of wire is bothering you, don't even look at solar for a serious sized system. I look at it for what I'm getting, if I need to spend 2000 dollars just to put the wire in the ground to me thats a lot diferent than spending 2000 dollars on a nice panel ,inverter and Batteries for a starter package. Something that keeps giving for years. A $2000 PV system is not going to give you anywhere near the juice of a 100 amp panel. I suspect you will find that such a system won't even run your air compressor for more than a few minutes a day if that. In any case, AL wire will be about 25-30% of the cost of copper for the current required. You will only need about 600 feet of #1 copper, and about 200 feet of #6 copper to serve as a ground. I suspect you can get that for considerably less than $2000 if you look around closely. really you need to look closely at your actual needs and run only that much wire if the cost is an issue. 100A is a lot of juice,especially for a 3 wire 240/120 system. maybe only run 120V out there and thus only 2 wires. He needs TIG welder and whatever else to support that sort of work, compressor, etc. I'd bury conduit, it's cheap and pull aluminum stranded conductors thru it. Make provision to drain any condensed water, at the lowest point. He's going to have to pull a separate neutral and a ground plus the two hot conductors, at least. For a sub-panel. Over size the conductors so you don't have I sq E losses when running welders, etc, You'll be happy you did. Forget solar for this ap. 
|
|
Quoted:
A typical TIG Welder draws less than 25 amps at 240 volts - and that's the peak current, running it hard. Again - Where's the justification for 100 amp service? propguy, are you planning on running every single device in the shed simultaneously? My Dynasty DX would take exception to that.... IIRC Gotta go look.... 62 amps @240, 30 at 440, and it's a little thing... Besides, it's a good idea to plan for bigger and better stuff. |
|
Quoted:
He needs TIG welder and whatever else to support that sort of work, compressor, etc. I'd bury conduit, it's cheap and pull aluminum stranded conductors thru it. Make provision to drain any condensed water, at the lowest point. He's going to have to pull a separate neutral and a ground plus the two hot conductors, at least. For a sub-panel. Over size the conductors so you don't have I sq E losses when running welders, etc, You'll be happy you did. Forget solar for this ap.
There is no need to try and drain the conduit. That is why the code requires wires run undergound have insulation rated for wet areas. AL feeders make a lot of sense cost wise. The only issue is they get large and pulling 3 big wires and a smaller ground wire through 200 feet of undergound conduit is not a job for the average DIYer. Even running copper wires of this size that far is going to be a challenge for someone without the right equipment and experience. Might be simpler to just get a generator and set it out at the shed. Another thing to consider is whether his existing service can handle the extra load. If he really needs another 100 amps, that is a huge load to add to an existing residential service. He might want to have a chat with the local POCO. They might, and I emphasize "might", be willing to drop another service for him out at the shed. |
|
Quoted:
A typical TIG Welder draws less than 25 amps at 240 volts - and that's the peak current, running it hard. Again - Where's the justification for 100 amp service? propguy, are you planning on running every single device in the shed simultaneously? It's a 375 Lincoln if I'm weld 3/4" Aluminum plate she is screaming,[not sure of the amperage as I'm a little busy to look at the machines #'s] if the compressor was to kick on well...... and yes this is something that happens frequently even at my shop every once in a great while she'll
throw a 75 amp breaker 
The whole idea was not to build it around the welder but to have something to build out from solar, and yes the cost in solar to attempt to run the welder is a NO/GO I understand that |
|
Quoted:
There is no need to try and drain the conduit. That is why the code requires wires run undergound have insulation rated for wet areas. AL feeders make a lot of sense cost wise. The only issue is they get large and pulling 3 big wires and a smaller ground wire through 200 feet of undergound conduit is not a job for the average DIYer. Even running copper wires of this size that far is going to be a challenge for someone without the right equipment and experience. Might be simpler to just get a generator and set it out at the shed. Another thing to consider is whether his existing service can handle the extra load. If he really needs another 100 amps, that is a huge load to add to an existing residential service. He might want to have a chat with the local POCO. They might, and I emphasize "might", be willing to drop another service for him out at the shed. Quoted:
Quoted:
He needs TIG welder and whatever else to support that sort of work, compressor, etc. I'd bury conduit, it's cheap and pull aluminum stranded conductors thru it. Make provision to drain any condensed water, at the lowest point. He's going to have to pull a separate neutral and a ground plus the two hot conductors, at least. For a sub-panel. Over size the conductors so you don't have I sq E losses when running welders, etc, You'll be happy you did. Forget solar for this ap.
There is no need to try and drain the conduit. That is why the code requires wires run undergound have insulation rated for wet areas. AL feeders make a lot of sense cost wise. The only issue is they get large and pulling 3 big wires and a smaller ground wire through 200 feet of undergound conduit is not a job for the average DIYer. Even running copper wires of this size that far is going to be a challenge for someone without the right equipment and experience. Might be simpler to just get a generator and set it out at the shed. Another thing to consider is whether his existing service can handle the extra load. If he really needs another 100 amps, that is a huge load to add to an existing residential service. He might want to have a chat with the local POCO. They might, and I emphasize "might", be willing to drop another service for him out at the shed. What about #2 direct burial service cable? Yes I have 200 amp panel with plenty of room............. |
|
Quoted:
My Dynasty DX would take exception to that.... IIRC Gotta go look.... 62 amps @240, 30 at 440, and it's a little thing... Besides, it's a good idea to plan for bigger and better stuff. Quoted:
Quoted:
A typical TIG Welder draws less than 25 amps at 240 volts - and that's the peak current, running it hard. Again - Where's the justification for 100 amp service? propguy, are you planning on running every single device in the shed simultaneously? My Dynasty DX would take exception to that.... IIRC Gotta go look.... 62 amps @240, 30 at 440, and it's a little thing... Besides, it's a good idea to plan for bigger and better stuff. Yep! My old 255 Lincoln would warm the panel...the 375 well..............
|
|
Input Power (Voltage/Phase/Hertz)
K2622-1/K2624-1: 208/230/460/1/60 K2622-2: 230/460/575/1/60 K2623-1: 220-230/380-400/415/1/50/60 Input Current at Rated Output with PFC 208V: 112 460V: 51 220-230V: 119 575V: 41 230V: 102 380-400V: 69 415V: 63 An electrician can decipher this for me,
|
|
Quoted:
What about #2 direct burial service cable? Yes I have 200 amp panel with plenty of room............. Just because you have a 200 amp panel with plenty of room does not mean there is any head room on the utility transformer. The size of the service they give you is unrelated to the rating of your panel. UG service cable (USE) only has 3 wires, and can only be used on services anyway as it is not a recognized chapter 3 wiring method. what you are doing is a feeder. There might be some UF (underground feeder) cable that would work. i don't deal any with residential work so I am not real familiar with what is available. |
|
Ilbob Re PVC: I'm not an electrician so not up on this stuff... I just went with the recommendations from my electrician and the conduit stuff I used was plastic coated metal and came in a roll. We ran the lines thru that stuff and then buried that. Dug an 18" trench and then spread pea gravel bed to lay the conduit stuff with the line on. A trencher would have been nice but I did it old school way with a pick and a sharpshooter. Wasn't easy but got trench dug and all outlets and interior lines run in one weekend so not too bad. Definitely kept cost down by doing it all myself except for the final hookup on the panel.
Others have said go with more power than you think you need and I agree with that but only up to a point. A 60amp sub-box gives a lot of power. I run a Lincoln stick welder, big IR compressor, 10k btu portable ac, portable fridge and enough outlets to pretty much run any 110v power tool I want in my shop. I also strung 4 twin bulb 4' florescent light fixtures in the ceiling so I have plenty of lighting. My 60 amp box handles all that and never had any issues. If I were doing it all again tomorrow... I'd do exactly the same thing. Good luck with the workshop! Everyone needs one. |
|
Best way is 4 inch rigid buried at 24 inches with 2/0 copper.
Worst way that would work 3/3/3/5 cable strung on poles. Now with one extreme to the other look at this and price some. southwire With that you just need a sleeve in case it ever needs replacing. Run a data/low voltage pipe as well. |
|
Quoted:
Ilbob Re PVC: I'm not an electrician so not up on this stuff... I just went with the recommendations from my electrician and the conduit stuff I used was plastic coated metal and came in a roll. We ran the lines thru that stuff and then buried that. Dug an 18" trench and then spread pea gravel bed to lay the conduit stuff with the line on. A trencher would have been nice but I did it old school way with a pick and a sharpshooter. Wasn't easy but got trench dug and all outlets and interior lines run in one weekend so not too bad. Definitely kept cost down by doing it all myself except for the final hookup on the panel. I don't see any reason to waste money on burying LFMC. But, its certainly easier than a non-flexible conduit of some sort. Even so pulling 3 #1 AL wires and a smaller ground through it will not be fun. Digging a 200 foot long trench 18" deep is not a trivial task either. I don't think they make UF cable larger than #6 copper. That would be the simplest answer, although I think you have to bury it 24" deep. First, call POCO and see if they will install an extra service. It might be surprisingly cost effective if they will allow it, especially if there are poles not far off already. He is going to need to look closely at his existing service anyway. It would be a very rare residential service where a 100A worth of 240V load could be added. |
|
Quoted:
Best way is 4 inch rigid buried at 24 inches with 2/0 copper. Worst way that would work 3/3/3/5 cable strung on poles. Now with one extreme to the other look at this and price some. southwire With that you just need a sleeve in case it ever needs replacing. Run a data/low voltage pipe as well. why would you need 2/0 Cu for 100A? and why bury rigid so deep? rigid only has to be 6" under. 2/0 Cu is going to cost you close to $2.50 a foot at wholesale prices, and most consumers are not going to get it for anything close to that. personally I would be looking at #1 AL for the two hots and probably like a #6 AL for the N and ground. but, one would need some kind of load calculation to support a smaller neutral. |
|
Quoted:
why would you need 2/0 Cu for 100A? and why bury rigid so deep? rigid only has to be 6" under. 2/0 Cu is going to cost you close to $2.50 a foot at wholesale prices, and most consumers are not going to get it for anything close to that. personally I would be looking at #1 AL for the two hots and probably like a #6 AL for the N and ground. but, one would need some kind of load calculation to support a smaller neutral. Quoted:
Quoted:
Best way is 4 inch rigid buried at 24 inches with 2/0 copper. Worst way that would work 3/3/3/5 cable strung on poles. Now with one extreme to the other look at this and price some. southwire With that you just need a sleeve in case it ever needs replacing. Run a data/low voltage pipe as well. why would you need 2/0 Cu for 100A? and why bury rigid so deep? rigid only has to be 6" under. 2/0 Cu is going to cost you close to $2.50 a foot at wholesale prices, and most consumers are not going to get it for anything close to that. personally I would be looking at #1 AL for the two hots and probably like a #6 AL for the N and ground. but, one would need some kind of load calculation to support a smaller neutral. Note that I said one extreme to another. The rigid and 2/0 would be over kill and over built. Why so deep, why not it the trencher is there. I have been in the electrical business since my dad could train me as a toddler to do things. Usually I give customers a choice between conduit and copper conductors and tray cable sleeved in Sch. 80 above ground and explain the different options. Usually the smart ones that can afford it, go with pipe and conductors. With that said, if one uses direct burial and you go across gravel drive, please protect your wire with thick plastic or make sure you have dirt on top of your wire a good 6-8 inches before and gravel can be put back in. Long term the gravel can cause a short. And buy or get some red electrical marking tape, fill in 6-12 inches of trench then put the marking tape/warning tape down and fill in the rest. I would also run a 1-1.5 inch pipe for data/coaxial/alarm/whatever low voltage. To be really anal a spare conduit it cheap insurance. Also most Power companies here will power a shop meter if you put a light on the pole near the shop and pay the monthly fee, $8-12. Some charge a monthly minimum meter fee on shop meters of say $10-20 bucks. For the average guy letting the PowerCo do it and have the liability for the power to shop is best. Then all you have to do is wire the shop with help from friends. ETA, no need to undersize the neutral more than one size. Personally for the minimal cost I would use the same as the two phases/hots. I have seen many shops done with a two pole breaker, AL triplex sleeved above ground, used as phase A/B/Neutral and a ground rod driven at the shop. The neutral is the GROUNDED conductor creating the potential need for current flow. The grounding conductor/ ground is safety in case of fault. Much cheaper for folks to use 100A triplex to shops and barns. Its exactly how the POCO does it and we sink the ground rod and bond the neutral in the meter one time with a grounding conductor and ground rods to get under 5 ohms(IIRCC). So let's debate the OP using pipe and 100A rated triplex which is direct burial rated to feed his shop. For years it has worked and if he does it himself, here there is no permit required. Flaimsuit is on and yes I know codes/NEC/NFPA/NFPA70E, etc. But we are talking what works, is safe, and saving the OP cash. |
|
Quoted:
Also most Power companies here will power a shop meter if you put a light on the pole near the shop and pay the monthly fee, $8-12. Some charge a monthly minimum meter fee on shop meters of say $10-20 bucks. For the average guy letting the PowerCo do it and have the liability for the power to shop is best. Then all you have to do is wire the shop with help from friends. would be my first choice, if the POCO allows it. ETA, no need to undersize the neutral more than one size. Personally for the minimal cost I would use the same as the two phases/hots. There is no need. Just less expensive. The OP seems somewhat cost averse. I have seen many shops done with a two pole breaker, AL triplex sleeved above ground, used as phase A/B/Neutral and a ground rod driven at the shop. The neutral is the GROUNDED conductor creating the potential need for current flow. The grounding conductor/ ground is safety in case of fault. Much cheaper for folks to use 100A triplex to shops and barns. Its exactly how the POCO does it and we sink the ground rod and bond the neutral in the meter one time with a grounding conductor and ground rods to get under 5 ohms(IIRCC). The earth is not part of the fault path so the impedance to earth is really irrelevant. You can wire it up with 3 wires if it is not getting inspected. No competent inspector would approve such an installation though. |