Posted: 3/28/2011 7:24:39 PM EDT
| Is there a case for less lethal defense in a SHTF scenario? And if so when and how to employ it ? Any body can contribute ideas since it is something I had never thought of before. Thanks |
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None what so ever in my thinking. If it's truly SHTF, people are going to be doing some crazy shit, why give some moron a second chance to do crazy shit to you?
Mercy and compassion have no place when you're life is on the line. If the Turd is in the Wind the only place you'll need to look for sympathy is in the dictionary between shit and syphilis. After order and civilization has been reestablished and you're still alive that's the time to dig out your mercy, compassion and sympathy for the survivors. |
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Quoted: Is there a case for less lethal defense in a SHTF scenario? And if so when and how to employ it ? Any body can contribute ideas since it is something I had never thought of before. Thanks No then you have to dela with a "prisinor" vice a body Im assume SHTF=eotw, and not power being out for a couple weeks, |
| if i have to pull the trigger you can damn sure rest assured there will be a bullet leaving the barrel and not some LL type of rd. if i feel i need to pull the trigger then the threat is enough that it needs to be exterminated, not given a second chance. LL ammo is a waist of space in my gear. |
Cripes!  I carry a fighting cane. I'll probably still be carrying it after TSHTF. Not everybody who comes at you is going to be some crazed hillbilly with a fiddle or a Mad Max villain, and you don't want to get the reputation as a kill-crazy loon, just in case civilization isn't gone for good (hint–– it won't be.) As always, there's no universal answer to how to deal with people you haven't yet encountered, but you should still have somewhere to go between run for it and bullet to the head. |
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I would think there is a likelihood of one of your group "losing it" in the house would fit the need for at least ONE form on less than lethal weaponry.
I have a taser in the house for that possibility,,someone freaking out, a club to the head has a likelihood of killing them, where as a hit with a few 1000 volts from one of the small commercial shockers will allow you to get them under control(trussed up) with less chance of permanent damage. and cleaning up brains from the living room ceiling is just gross 
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| I have a few less lethal options but dunno that I will need them. With me it's a "have but probably don't need" situation. I have two boxes of rubber slugs and rubber buckshot. The buckshot I have used to chase off a large dog- it damn sure gets their attention! I also have a couple of the large "bear spray" cans of pepper. Keep one in my truck in case of riots..... |
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I've read many of these topics over the years.
You're going to get all sorts of opinions, ranging from kill them all to pepper spray. Life is NEVER a one size fits all deal. You can't simply pre-program a result and expect to always have all the variables so your end result is 100% consistent. You can't say kill them all, to keep them from coming back. Maybe they have "watchers" you can't see. You thought you ended the situation, but you just escalated it as the watchers will come back with reinforcement. Then again, maybe you showed compassion and just pepper sprayed them or used a shotgun bean bag. Maybe they will just be thankful they are still alive and move on? Then again maybe they won't. You can spray one guy with pepper spray and stop him, yet spray another guy and he could care less. There is no single answer that is right or wrong. You have to live with your decision, plan all your options and levels of response, and train with what you feel you wish to use. If you wish to deploy LTL tools, always have an immediate backup to transition to and/or a partner who had a lethal alternative at the ready. |
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I've read many of these topics over the years. You're going to get all sorts of opinions, ranging from kill them all to pepper spray. Life is NEVER a one size fits all deal. You can't simply pre-program a result and expect to always have all the variables so your end result is 100% consistent. You can't say kill them all, to keep them from coming back. Maybe they have "watchers" you can't see. You thought you ended the situation, but you just escalated it as the watchers will come back with reinforcement. Then again, maybe you showed compassion and just pepper sprayed them or used a shotgun bean bag. Maybe they will just be thankful they are still alive and move on? Then again maybe they won't. You can spray one guy with pepper spray and stop him, yet spray another guy and he could care less. There is no single answer that is right or wrong. You have to live with your decision, plan all your options and levels of response, and train with what you feel you wish to use. If you wish to deploy LTL tools, always have an immediate backup to transition to and/or a partner who had a lethal alternative at the ready. VERY Good advice. BTW: The taser is probably your best less than lethal option. I don't like the beanbags or rubber slugs at all. I don't want to be in a situation where I'm pointing a gun at someone with a rubber bullet and they point back with a real bullet. Remember – the other guy doest know your not using a live round, this can escalate a situation. |
| I can see one situation where it may be a reasonable option. Figure you wake up at night and have to resecure your home or BOL. If you had children/friends/etc in other rooms and didnt know their current situation, would you want to take the risk of accidentily killing them while retaking your home? If you are under stress and someone unknown comes around the corner unexpectedly, do you have the time to stop and make sure its friend or foe before they are on you? Not a terribly likely situation, but something worth thinking about before completly shooting down a beanbag from a shotgun. |
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While I might eventually have some less than lethal stuff, I consider it potentially lethal because it can cause serious harm to the person you use it on. Easy to put out eyes or hurt ears and depending on how close the person is it can penetrate the skin. This is for rubber bullets mostly. I just want some bean bag rounds for the next time I am at a get together and someone asks if I want to play bean bag toss. I can see why someone would want a tazer, I personally don't want one because I have no use for it in real life. If I carried one at work and was fully trained on it I could kind of see having one around but I don't so I won't get one anytime soon. Now pepper spray I can see having around. But I use it at work and I have tried it out at home so I can see how it affects me. My reason for having pepper spray is for dealing with folks who think they can mob you and take what you have, and keep you from shooting them if they do not pose a threat to your life. Consider a quiet group of hippies with the munchies coming for your garden. They keep their hands out in the open and have no bulges from ccw stuff. They say they are just hungry and just want some food and mean no harm to you. The less than lethal stuff might be useful at this point but I am not going to be swapping rounds out in my shotgun and I personally won't be keeping around one lethal shotgun and one less than lethal shotgun. But a can or two, I have the 125 gram or whatever can size, might get them to rethink things. I won't risk a good dog on hippies with the munchies. The dog might get a disease or the people might turn the story around and say I just put the dog on them with no reason. In other threads we have talked about feeding people and I will generally help out those who ask. But there will be some who think they can keep coming back for free food or just hassle you to the point where your patience is gone. I have no problem helping out those who need some help but I don't plan to just let them be freeloaders. I am not going to keep a few cases of mace around. But I can see having a few cans around. At work I tend to be consistant and the inmates realize I am not going to change my thought process just because they try to sway me. So eventually you get a reputation for simply following a set of rules and even new inmates realize this. Dealing with a few folks should set a standard that will become your reputation. I also fully realize there are some folks who don't mind pepper spray one bit. Some folks put it on their food for hot sauce. So pepper spray is step one in a few instances. In lights out when at the grocery store I could also see where having some pepper spray might be a bit of a deterrant since your background is filled with innocent folks so you might not want to use a firearm. And I also admit to having some of the uv dye pepper spray as well, kind of nice to know you could possably identify the folks later if you needed to do so. It is something to consider. It might be a tool to put in the tool box. If I had a less than lethal setup it would probably be a complete shotgun with some of the brightly colored furniture like the police generally use. That way you would absolutely not think you have a less than lethal round and wind up sending out a real slug or buckshot. I need to get a new spring for my 590 mossberg as well. The magazine spring is weak and while I can restretch it I recently had the experience of it not feeding all the shells out of the magazine tube. So even if you plan to be careful and swap shells out or something, a weak spring could leave a final round of something deadly in the magazine tube. Pepper spray is something I just add to the load out. Less than lethal stuff that uses my current firearms is something I would worry about. |
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I think it depends on what S has HTF. Someone rear ends you and destroys your only mode of transportation to and from work. Are you going to pull out a gun and kill them? A tornado rips through your home and destroys it. The insurance adjuster can't be out for a couple of days due to other homes being inspected. Are you going to beat them up or kill them when they finally get to your house? Define your version of SHTF.
While I can agree, there are certainly times for lethal force...there are certainly times for less than lethal force. Be careful about making a blanket statement in regards to automatically using lethal force in a SHTF situation as if it's not TEOTWAWKI, you will most likely be ultimately judged by your peers in a court of law once the SHTF has cleared. To that end, there are numerous cases where an individual thought they were justified in using lethal force, only to find they were not. |
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Pepper spray. Extra large can. This. I keep a large pepper spray in my bug out bag for potential use during a vehicle bug out–– keep people away from my truck. Add me to the 'pepper spray in the GHB' gang - I keep a 4oz in the bag. You can only carry so much ammo and I'd rather not waste it on some unarmed idiot or a dog if spray will do the trick. Gunshots can also attract attention, and if SHTF and its time to use the BOB or GHB I'd prefer to keep away from the crowds and avoid attention if possible. |
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I've got an old Chicago long range double that I picked up for $15 at a gun show many, many years back. Damascus barrel, so no smokeless loads. Used to keep a paint ball in one barrel and rock salt in the other. Paint 'em and pain 'em and send 'em on their way. |
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I like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. It has changed my life. Nice to walk into a room and know you can probably choke everyone in it. If you had to...  So while you're choking one guy out, how's the BJJ going to prevent his 3 buddies from busting your skull with a baseball bat? |
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I like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. It has changed my life. Nice to walk into a room and know you can probably choke everyone in it. If you had to... So while you're choking one guy out, how's the BJJ going to prevent his 3 buddies from busting your skull with a baseball bat? What an excellent question. You'd pretty much be a fool to voluntarily engage a person while his buddies were there holding baseball bats. So no, training in any physical protection system doesn't protect you from his buddies, but can help you survive until YOUR buddies arrive. to "stand in base" allows you to get back up and run away if you need to. So I guess your theory is just don't train at all and grovel for mercy when the time comes? I have posted on fighting multiple opponents before, with pics of some training we do. The only trump card when you are by yourself is a gun. This is common sense. But when the gun jams or you just suck at using your gun, then what? I kind of like my plan, and kind of think your plan (perhaps the plan you have implied) is a dangerous one to have.
See you don't just go directly to advanced techniques no matter who you are - everyone starts with learning how to control one person. It can take years to get "good" at this. Teaching this is one of the hats I wear in the army - what I do for a living. |
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I like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. It has changed my life. Nice to walk into a room and know you can probably choke everyone in it. If you had to... So while you're choking one guy out, how's the BJJ going to prevent his 3 buddies from busting your skull with a baseball bat? What an excellent question. You'd pretty much be a fool to voluntarily engage a person while his buddies were there holding baseball bats. So no, training in any physical protection system doesn't protect you from his buddies, but can help you survive until YOUR buddies arrive. to "stand in base" allows you to get back up and run away if you need to. So I guess your theory is just don't train at all and grovel for mercy when the time comes? I have posted on fighting multiple opponents before, with pics of some training we do. The only trump card when you are by yourself is a gun. This is common sense. But when the gun jams or you just suck at using your gun, then what? I kind of like my plan, and kind of think your plan (perhaps the plan you have implied) is a dangerous one to have.
See you don't just go directly to advanced techniques no matter who you are - everyone starts with learning how to control one person. It can take years to get "good" at this. Teaching this is one of the hats I wear in the army - what I do for a living. I'm not really bustin' your balls, just commenting on some folks' (misguided) opinions about hand-to-hand techniques (and sadly, possession of firearms as well) being some kind of magic wand that cures all ills. Sometimes the best defense is to pop smoke and show 'em your ass (figuratively speaking). Again, I'm not saying that applies to you, but there's not a soul on this earth (no matter how badass at martial arts) who can walk into a room full of hostiles and not take an ass beating. Anybody can be overpowered by numbers, and you doubtless know that it doesn't take long to sustain serious injury in that situation. All I'm trying to do is point out that if you're facing multiple attackers and your life is on the line the best bet is to attempt to disengage. Going to ground in that situation just gives your opponents the opportunity to whack you with whatever's handy. Obviously you're an experienced guy, so maybe that doesn't apply to you, but my moderately-trained ass is going to whatever it takes to avoid a many-on-one situation. Sadly, I no longer have pictures of what my face looked like after taking a baseball bat to the face/head a couple of times, but the point I'm trying to make is that that particular lesson is one I learned the hard way. I was a much better fighter then than I am now, and in better shape, but at least I'm smarter now. |
| I really agree with what you are saying here, my only comment was on your prior statement above. Training is like layers - the outer layer in my opinion is distance, the next layer is the gun, and somewhere down deep when you have nothing left you have yourself. Against multiple attackers that is a grim potential outcome. |
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In SHTF vs TEOTWAWKI, I can think of one particular instance where less lethal can be useful.
If it is SHTF, and you can expect order to return, ala: Katrina, Rodney King, etc... then you can expect to be held accountable for your actions when order returns. A less lethal option suddenly becomes a desirable option when dealing with unruly but unarmed mobs. Imagine... you are driving somewhere when you come around a corner, and come up on a large group of people. There is another car behind you and you can't turn around. They start shouting ..."Hey gimme a ride..." "what you got for us" ... etc.. so what do you do? 1. Drive through them? That will get you facing a bunch of criminal and civil charges,and will have no shortage of witness from the side of the unruly mob. 2. Give in and let them take your car, and any of the preps in it? You will avoid court, but your survival situation will not be helped at all. 3. Open fire? same outcome as number 1. It may be hard to convince a jury that an armed person in a vehicle faced an immediate threat of death from a group of unarmed people. While intellectually we know better, it is something not always easy to prove to a jury. Additionally a prosecutor may portray you as looking for a confrontation by "driving armed in to a group of people during the SHTF... must have been looking for a fight" 4. Use less lethals as a deterrent. Pop the lead aggressor with a bean bag or rubber rocket round; People will think you have opened fire, and leave you alone, so you can make your get away but no lasting injury done so no one is going to look too hard to press any kind of charges. You can also use non contact rounds to deter people from you. Screamers, bird bombs, and dragons breath rounds all have a psychological effect, and may help your situation. There is a reason shotguns are sometimes called "riot guns". Now none of this is guaranteed to help or be effective, but if you don't carry less lethals, you don't even have that option. Just my opinion. Yours may vary. RB |
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I would prefer LTL on one of my outside Zones of Defense. If they keep coming after LTL, then in 95% of scenarios it would justify lethal on first sight.
The reason I say this is that if I was in a group with close friends, and one of them was killed while on point, for taking the wrong trail.. i would well... take it personally, since I would consider it murder. I see the "roving bands" to have their roots on a social basis (church youth groups, Boy Scouts, friends from work, company softball teams....etc.) In my mind if they encounter a pepper spray bobby trap/tear gas can, they will most likely turn back. Even just a sign that says something like "All my Fence Posts have Purple Paint on the top them... Don't come on my Land" may turn many people away, or help them decide to go around your hidey hole. Now if they start to probe after reading the Purple Paint sign, and LTL... well that is another story. |
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In SHTF vs TEOTWAWKI, I can think of one particular instance where less lethal can be useful. If it is SHTF, and you can expect order to return, ala: Katrina, Rodney King, etc... then you can expect to be held accountable for your actions when order returns. A less lethal option suddenly becomes a desirable option when dealing with unruly but unarmed mobs. Imagine... you are driving somewhere when you come around a corner, and come up on a large group of people. There is another car behind you and you can't turn around. They start shouting ..."Hey gimme a ride..." "what you got for us" ... etc.. so what do you do? 1. Drive through them? That will get you facing a bunch of criminal and civil charges,and will have no shortage of witness from the side of the unruly mob. 2. Give in and let them take your car, and any of the preps in it? You will avoid court, but your survival situation will not be helped at all. 3. Open fire? same outcome as number 1. It may be hard to convince a jury that an armed person in a vehicle faced an immediate threat of death from a group of unarmed people. While intellectually we know better, it is something not always easy to prove to a jury. Additionally a prosecutor may portray you as looking for a confrontation by "driving armed in to a group of people during the SHTF... must have been looking for a fight" 4. Use less lethals as a deterrent. Pop the lead aggressor with a bean bag or rubber rocket round; People will think you have opened fire, and leave you alone, so you can make your get away but no lasting injury done so no one is going to look too hard to press any kind of charges. You can also use non contact rounds to deter people from you. Screamers, bird bombs, and dragons breath rounds all have a psychological effect, and may help your situation. There is a reason shotguns are sometimes called "riot guns". Now none of this is guaranteed to help or be effective, but if you don't carry less lethals, you don't even have that option. Just my opinion. Yours may vary. RB Wow!  I would think you just keep your doors locked; windows up; horn beeping; and vehicle moving if you are in danger from the mob. I am not saying you accelerate and intentionally strike/run over a bunch of them.
ETA To contribute something directly relevant to the OP. I neither want to needlessly kill people, nor do I want to be incarcerated. I like having less lethal and less than lethal options available. That would not change in a temporary breakdown of order. |
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"simple crime" is just that, stuff that is usually nonsense, but could turn into a real issue if you were in an actual survival situation (ex. someone stealing your genny). If you can avoid killing someone, why not? Spray 'em down...they will leave. If they won't then their intent becomes a little more clear.
If you have no experience withe less-lethal, go get some. Pick up a $20 can of Sabre red and see what it will and won't do...yes, get sprayed or spend a couple bucks and get the cert. At a minimum you will see a large number of folks take the hit and will get a better eval than if you just puff your face. You need to know the limitaions of your weapon system in training, rather than discover it the hard way. The bean bag is said to be the equivalent of a major league fastball in terms of energy, I've fired a bunch...cts supersock, not really that impressive. It's strictly pain compliance and will require some precision. My advice is to stock up on the riot size OC dispenser, they will shut an untrained, semi-motivated scavenger down for a little while if you catch them in the eyes. I have seen 48 people sprayed on two ocassions, some were "fine", others were almost shut down....90% can fight if they know the tricks. |