Quoted:
I'm just curious about some of yalls views on stealing for survival. How soon after a SHTF scenario would you consider, for instance, stealing food?

Now I realize looting occurs almost immediately, however I'm not talking about getting that new big screen TV you have had your eye on for a few months. I'm talking about a situation where your thinking "Ok its going to be quite some time before things get back to normal, I'm going to need more food, gas, what have you, before then."

There are a couple of dilemmas when it comes to this. Too soon after a disaster and things might calm down quicker than you expected and you really are harming someones livelihood (although it might already be ruined by other people). Too late and there might not be anything left for you to use.

Where is the line between being a criminal and simply trying to survive, for you personally?

Quoted:



How long you you think it would be before you got shot stealing?

Quoted:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting it is something smart to do. I'm also not talking about taking something from someones home or anything like that. I'm talking something like going to a grocery store in need of antibiotics or more cans of food or something.

Prepare for the most likely first and the least likely last.  It is impressive how that when you get prepared for the most likely that then the least likely things take care of themselves.

Quoted:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting it is something smart to do. I'm also not talking about taking something from someones home or anything like that. I'm talking something like going to a grocery store in need of antibiotics or more cans of food or something.

Quoted:
I'm just curious about some of yalls views on stealing for survival. How soon after a SHTF scenario would you consider, for instance, stealing food?

Now I realize looting occurs almost immediately, however I'm not talking about getting that new big screen TV you have had your eye on for a few months. I'm talking about a situation where your thinking "Ok its going to be quite some time before things get back to normal, I'm going to need more food, gas, what have you, before then."

There are a couple of dilemmas when it comes to this. Too soon after a disaster and things might calm down quicker than you expected and you really are harming someones livelihood (although it might already be ruined by other people). Too late and there might not be anything left for you to use.

Where is the line between being a criminal and simply trying to survive, for you personally?

Quoted:


Something else to consider.  Whiel you are out scavenging through the ruins of walmart looking for what earlier folks missed, who is watching our shit to keep some ne from scavenging it?

Quoted:
I was discussing the movie The Road with a fellow worker. He got all lathered up when talking about the guy that stole all their stuff on the beach. His attitude was that the father had no cause to take everything he owned away from the man even his clothes when he caught up with him. I just answered that he was lucky the father let him live.

Quoted:

Any one of the prime categories are rife with very, very passionate proponents who will get downright feisty over being contradicted or told in even the most gentle terms that they might not be entirely correct.

Quoted:


Is it considered looting, stealing or scavenging if a Govt rep or city official decides on taking your goods or property for the welfare of the community?



I don't mind helping out if I am able, and I'd like to think I will be in a position to do so, but it's by my choice when, where and how much.



BT

Quoted:
Is it considered looting, stealing or scavenging if a Govt rep or city official decides on taking your goods or property for the welfare of the community?

I don't mind helping out if I am able, and I'd like to think I will be in a position to do so, but it's by my choice when, where and how much.

BT

Quoted:
Spend enough time reading this forum and you'll realize stealing other people's food is not a survival strategy.  Its a quick way to lose the survival game.

I know I would do everything in my power to provide for myself and my family, short of compromising my humanity and moral fortitude.

Quoted:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting it is something smart to do. I'm also not talking about taking something from someones home or anything like that. I'm talking something like going to a grocery store in need of antibiotics or more cans of food or something.

Quoted:
I'm not sure how long I would last in that situation. Probably not long because I'm not prepared at all. I don't have any plan what-so-ever.

I was just curious as to how some people view the situation. It's apparent that yall are against it 100% and that's fine. I just got to thinking about that kind of thing after reading about looting after hurricanes.

I'm not the kind of person to go looting anything either, so again I'm not suggesting it's a strategy of mine or anything like that.

I'm 18 for another month.

Quoted:
This is the sort of discussion guaranteed to create animus and hard feelings.  There is no way to navigate the concept without it.

There are guys/gals on this forum who's first plan is to take anything that isn't bolted down with red loctite on the threads.  Whether they have their own preps or no.

There are guys/gals on this forum who insist that people will do ANYTHING to survive, and who have made peace with the fact that they will go predatory at some point in the course of any long term event.

There are guys/gals on this forum who'd starve to death next door to an empty house with a cupboard full of viable food because it isn't theirs and somebody, some day might come to claim it.

There are also any number of folks who wander in and out of any or all of these categories.

Any one of the prime categories are rife with very, very passionate proponents who will get downright feisty over being contradicted or told in even the most gentle terms that they might not be entirely correct.

So, here's the way I see it breaking down.

Looters: shot on sight. Period.

Sneak thieves: Short term event, turned in to the authorities if authorities are in control.  Beaten and tossed out into the muck if no authority present.  Long term, shot on sight.

In long term events with significant loss of life, at some point, looting/thieving becomes scavenging.  The point at which this happens is somewhat murky, and differs from individual to individual, and from what part of the acquisition of goods you're on.

Of course, the group who'll starve to death next to abandoned plenty on the off chance that somebody, some day will come to claim it, maybe, will not recognize nor condone this.  I've heard from some on this very forum that, even if the former residents are on the lawn reduced to bones, it's still not fair game because relatives might some day show up with a rightful claim.  True enough.  Anything's possible, and any sort of scavenging entails the risk of injury or culpability.

It all comes down to a matter of determining what type of event you're trying to live through and what sort of circumstances the items exist in.

I'd never steal from other survivors, nor from a functioning business.  Over the long haul, however, once it became clear to me (depending on current events) that specific properties have been abandoned due to permanent flight or death, I'd start considering them fair game.

And, of course, anybody who comes after me with ill intent forfeits all of his shit arbitrarily

You have to learn to observe and extrapolate possible outcomes.  With some people, that comes with time.  Others never do get it.

ETA:  Oh, yeah, I forgot to add the guys who's plan is to kill anybody who comes near them

Quoted:


This guy knows his stuff. you gotta walk on egg shells on this site. you may not know it but you probably pissed off a few people just by making that first post.

Quoted:
I would steal to survive.  Everyone on this forum would.  At some point everything gets stripped away but the bare animal when you are starving to death. Morals are a luxury the starving cannot afford.
And that's just the plain truth regardless of whatever else you hear.

Quoted:


That's the question, isn't it?  Or, rather, what is the difference between scavenging and stealing?  If you're going into somebody's obviously occupied residence, that's burglary.  If you're going into somebody's obviously occupied business, that's looting/burglary.  If you're going into an obviously abandoned dwelling/business, that's probably scavenging.  Again, depending on other mitigating factors.

Careful how wide a brush you wield to justify actions.
 

Quoted:
Is it considered looting, stealing or scavenging if a Govt rep or city official decides on taking your goods or property for the welfare of the community?

I don't mind helping out if I am able, and I'd like to think I will be in a position to do so, but it's by my choice when, where and how much.

BT

Quoted:
When Andrew happened the Guard was mobilized and when people raided the supermarkets they had free reign, there was no power and everything was going to rot, but when people started looting stealing fishfinders and Vespa scooters then the cops started shooting at looters. I had my first warm meal after about 3 weeks after Andrew and it tasted like ice cream

Quoted:
I'm just curious about some of yalls views on stealing for survival. How soon after a SHTF scenario would you consider, for instance, stealing food?

Now I realize looting occurs almost immediately, however I'm not talking about getting that new big screen TV you have had your eye on for a few months. I'm talking about a situation where your thinking "Ok its going to be quite some time before things get back to normal, I'm going to need more food, gas, what have you, before then."

There are a couple of dilemmas when it comes to this. Too soon after a disaster and things might calm down quicker than you expected and you really are harming someones livelihood (although it might already be ruined by other people). Too late and there might not be anything left for you to use.

Where is the line between being a criminal and simply trying to survive, for you personally?

Quoted:
This is the sort of discussion guaranteed to create animus and hard feelings.  There is no way to navigate the concept without it.

There are guys/gals on this forum who's first plan is to take anything that isn't bolted down with red loctite on the threads.  Whether they have their own preps or no.

There are guys/gals on this forum who insist that people will do ANYTHING to survive, and who have made peace with the fact that they will go predatory at some point in the course of any long term event.

There are guys/gals on this forum who'd starve to death next door to an empty house with a cupboard full of viable food because it isn't theirs and somebody, some day might come to claim it.

There are also any number of folks who wander in and out of any or all of these categories.

Any one of the prime categories are rife with very, very passionate proponents who will get downright feisty over being contradicted or told in even the most gentle terms that they might not be entirely correct.

So, here's the way I see it breaking down.

Looters: shot on sight. Period.

Sneak thieves: Short term event, turned in to the authorities if authorities are in control.  Beaten and tossed out into the muck if no authority present.  Long term, shot on sight.

In long term events with significant loss of life, at some point, looting/thieving becomes scavenging.  The point at which this happens is somewhat murky, and differs from individual to individual, and from what part of the acquisition of goods you're on.

Of course, the group who'll starve to death next to abandoned plenty on the off chance that somebody, some day will come to claim it, maybe, will not recognize nor condone this.  I've heard from some on this very forum that, even if the former residents are on the lawn reduced to bones, it's still not fair game because relatives might some day show up with a rightful claim.  True enough.  Anything's possible, and any sort of scavenging entails the risk of injury or culpability.

It all comes down to a matter of determining what type of event you're trying to live through and what sort of circumstances the items exist in.

I'd never steal from other survivors, nor from a functioning business.  Over the long haul, however, once it became clear to me (depending on current events) that specific properties have been abandoned due to permanent flight or death, I'd start considering them fair game.

And, of course, anybody who comes after me with ill intent forfeits all of his shit arbitrarily

You have to learn to observe and extrapolate possible outcomes.  With some people, that comes with time.  Others never do get it.

ETA:  Oh, yeah, I forgot to add the guys who's plan is to kill anybody who comes near them

Quoted:


I think some people here are missing what I'm getting at here. I'm not talking about going next door, breaking in, and stealing from a neighbor while he is out hunting. I'm talking strictly about grocery stores and such when there is no order. No one to trade with.



I'm not seeking gratification on this. Personally I wouldn't even think about it unless there wasn't even a chance of order being restored.



And I appreciate those of you who are being constructive here and not just spreading the hate around.

Quoted:
I think some people here are missing what I'm getting at here. I'm not talking about going next door, breaking in, and stealing from a neighbor while he is out hunting. I'm talking strictly about grocery stores and such when there is no order. No one to trade with.

I'm not seeking gratification on this. Personally I wouldn't even think about it unless there wasn't even a chance of order being restored.

And I appreciate those of you who are being constructive here and not just spreading the hate around.

Quoted:
Morality should be like a rock and not negotiable.  Without it, we are like a sailor of old without a compass lost and our lives in peril, not to mention our souls.

A box of twinkies is a hell of a thing to risk your life and lose who you are over.  

You see, I will if I have to is a decision and decisions have a way of becoming plans.  They stand in your way and prevent you from answering the even more important question of what if there's no food to be had at all.  Its a bridge best not crossed at all.  

I will loot if I have to is admitting defeat and that you don't have the will power or ability to fend for yourself.  

Its not hard to understand a beggar has more respect than a thief.  

Any idiot can try to steal something.  It takes a man to say I won't steal.  

Many years ago, when I was not much older than you, I was married a young wife to take care of and so poor if I ate meat I shot it.  The idea of stealing never crossed my mind.  The idea of even asking for help while I could come up with an alternative never crossed my mind.

When you really think of it, its damn hard to come up with a when you have no alternative.  Man can live 30 days without food maybe longer.  That's a hell of a lot of time for alternatives.  

Years ago, this question would never come up.  I'm afraid NOLA Katrina has changed that as the media in their quest to prevent racial unrest justified thievery while in that same disaster all round them people shared what they had with their neighbors, made do without, stores opened their doors to people, and some even salvaged leaving notes with contact information and what they took offering compensation.

Its just best to say "no I won't" and leave it as the bridge not crossed.

Tj

 

Quoted:
I'm just curious about some of yalls views on stealing for survival. How soon after a SHTF scenario would you consider, for instance, stealing food?

Now I realize looting occurs almost immediately, however I'm not talking about getting that new big screen TV you have had your eye on for a few months. I'm talking about a situation where your thinking "Ok its going to be quite some time before things get back to normal, I'm going to need more food, gas, what have you, before then."

There are a couple of dilemmas when it comes to this. Too soon after a disaster and things might calm down quicker than you expected and you really are harming someones livelihood (although it might already be ruined by other people). Too late and there might not be anything left for you to use.

Where is the line between being a criminal and simply trying to survive, for you personally?