Posted: 3/17/2010 7:01:45 PM EDT
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So I know this topic has be batted around a bunch, but what the heck, I'm gonna tee it up again.
I'm trying to get the family set up with some basic off grid com capability. Step 1 is going to be equipping all our vehicles with SSB CBs (cobra 148 gtls) and a base in the house. Yes, I know Ham would be better, but the simple fact is that the wife isn't going to take the test and this is a cheap, simple solution that I'm hoping will give us emergency com capability within 15 to 20 miles of the house (we live on a 50 acre hobby farm) about 8 miles outside of Wichita. Step 2 however, is going to be getting my tech license (testing next month) and a basic HF rig to get some DXing capability. So this brings me to my question. What's a good, basic HF which I could pick up for a few hundred bucks. Don't need fancy and don't need all band. With the tech license I will only be able to make use of a limited part of the spectrum anyway. But I do want to be able to consistently and reliably get out 500+ miles. Any ideas? Thanks |
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Instead of the CB's, I would buy 35-50w GMRS mobile radios. One license and callsign covers your entire "hosuehold" and you will find they will be more reliable and less prone to idiots and jammers than CB.
The radios in your car plus a good base installation with a good antenna as high as you can get it will easily cover the range you want. Once you get your tech license, that same UHF radio in yyour vehicle can also be programmed with 440 ham freqs. Cost will be about the same, plus the $85 GMRS license fee. One radio I recommend to a lot of folks is the Kenwood TK-880, you can get them all day long on Ebay under $200. |
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Well, CB SSB may be possible within 20 miles or so but you will have to have a monster tower and maybe a beam antenna to get coverage out to the mobile. With a Tech license, you will be restricted to CW (Morse Code) on the HF bands with the exception of 10 meters..which is really close to the CB band. For reliable comms on HF out to 500 miles or less, lookat an NVIS antenna for the lower bands. You will still be restricted to CW on the lower bands but you will be able to communicate. Upgrading to a General license will open up a whole new world for you.
Look at the older rigs like the Icom 730, 740, 745, Kenwood TS120, 130. The Icom 730 is a great starter rig that has an exceptional reciever and can be bought for between $200 and $250. You will also need a 12vdc power supply for these rigs. |
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A couple of years ago I got a GMRS license for my family. There was no exam and I got my FCC callsign quickly. After that I bought some Icom F40GS LMR handhelds HERE
The radio I linked to above is on closeout-$79 is a great price for what you get. I don't see an option for the 460MHz version like I purchased, however. |
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Thanks for the replies.
A couple of things. I had the impression that the range of GMRS would never be adequate for what I want to do because, irregardless of power, it is UHF and strictly limited to line-of-sight. From the replies I'm getting I'm starting to wonder if this is really true. Is it reasonable to think that 40 w mobile to mobile GMRS radios could give me reliable communications out to 10 miles or so? Is it reasonable to think that putting in a GRMS home base station with an elevated antenna could give me a mobile to base range out to 20? If so, then perhaps I should be looking and GMRS as opposed to SSB CB. Keep in mind that I don't want to have to rely on repeaters for this - that's just going to make me dependent on a different kind of grid. Also, just for grins I took a practice general class amature test last night and came within a couple of questions of passing it without even looking at any study material. So I retract my statement that I'm just going to do the tech exam next month. My plan now is to do the tech and follow it up immediately with the general test. This doesn't change my plan to acquire a low end HF for the DX capability. I just can't invest a big hunk of money in both the local commucations solution and the long range capability at this point. I really appreciate the ICOM 730 tip. That might be just want I need. I assume this is late model enough that it is transistorized instead of tubed? Anybody got any comments on long term reliability of the 730? Thanks again. |
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Is it reasonable to think that 40 w mobile to mobile GMRS radios could give me reliable communications out to 10 miles or so? Is it reasonable to think that putting in a GRMS home base station with an elevated antenna could give me a mobile to base range out to 20?
For what it's worth, my Icom IC-7000 (HF/VHF/UHF) can reach UHF repeaters 40+ miles away if they're high enough, and mobile rigs 20-25 miles away. At max power my radio only puts out 35w on UHF. My UHF/VHF antenna is a Diamond X50A discreetly installed in my attic: 
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Quoted:
Thanks for the replies. A couple of things. I had the impression that the range of GMRS would never be adequate for what I want to do because, irregardless of power, it is UHF and strictly limited to line-of-sight. From the replies I'm getting I'm starting to wonder if this is really true. Is it reasonable to think that 40 w mobile to mobile GMRS radios could give me reliable communications out to 10 miles or so? Is it reasonable to think that putting in a GRMS home base station with an elevated antenna could give me a mobile to base range out to 20? If so, then perhaps I should be looking and GMRS as opposed to SSB CB. Keep in mind that I don't want to have to rely on repeaters for this - that's just going to make me dependent on a different kind of grid. Yeah, 35-50w GMRS mobiles with good antennas will eaily give you 10 miles vehicle to vehicle in the kind of flat terrian in your area, and if you get an antenna up in the air car to base at 20 miles is quite doable. Keep in mind that with a GMRS license you can also put up your own repeater, and have full control over it and how well it is provided with backup power if you ever wanted to. A buddy of mine put a GMRS repater on his silo, and he has a few dozen other families that contribute funds for the upkeep in exchange for being able to use it. Get good radios, and get good antennas- make sure your antennas are NMO mounted dead center in the roof of your vehicles for max performance. Mount your base antenna as high as possible, and feed it with good quality hardline, not cheap coax. If you wanted more power, a UHF Motorola Maratrac, Syntor X, Syntor X9000 or Spectra putting out 100 watts wouldn't be legal (50w limit) but you can run it on low power unless you have an "emergency" to stay legal. |
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Quoted:
I really appreciate the ICOM 730 tip. That might be just want I need. I assume this is late model enough that it is transistorized instead of tubed? Anybody got any comments on long term reliability of the 730? there was an ARFCOM database error. the forum SW meant to display Icom IC-718. starting here, http://www.eham.net/reviews/products/14 clicky here ––> http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/947 http://swap.qth.com/search-results.php?keywords=718&fieldtosearch=TitleOrDesc ar-jedi |
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The radio I linked to above is on closeout-$79 is a great price for what you get. I don't see an option for the 460MHz version like I purchased, however. That is a great deal, considering the list price, but unfortunately it's not a really useful band spread on the closeout one. It'll only do a little portion of the 70cm band (which is out of the band plan for FM voice). No GMRS or public safety. Quite a bummer –– I was about to jump on 'em. |
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The F40GS-1 radio is not easily modded to go to the 440-470 band. It requires about 9 capacitor changes of a physical size not readily available from Digikey. I picked up a couple of used ones at a low price and ended up using the front microphone/display fix a low TX audio problem on my F30GS. I put the stuff back together and gave it to someone in Canada who wanted to monitor some ops in the 400-430 band.
Using a repeater in the 420-430 band is not bandplan but if there are not any fast scan UHF TV users around, who is going to know. They do allow FM links in the band edges, so sneaking a backyard repeater on there might be cool as long as you didn't advertise it. As a matter of fact, I was considering just that before I bought the two F40GS-2 440-480mhz radios. My F43GS is rated 400-470 mhz and the two F40LT radios are listed as the same. With the two F40GS-1 radios, I had 5 units that could operate there. Now my SHTF plan is in the normal 440 band. RS |
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Quoted: The F40GS-1 radio is not easily modded to go to the 440-470 band. It requires about 9 capacitor changes of a physical size not readily available from Digikey. I picked up a couple of used ones at a low price and ended up using the front microphone/display fix a low TX audio problem on my F30GS. I put the stuff back together and gave it to someone in Canada who wanted to monitor some ops in the 400-430 band. Using a repeater in the 420-430 band is not bandplan but if there are not any fast scan UHF TV users around, who is going to know. They do allow FM links in the band edges, so sneaking a backyard repeater on there might be cool as long as you didn't advertise it. As a matter of fact, I was considering just that before I bought the two F40GS-2 440-480mhz radios. My F43GS is rated 400-470 mhz and the two F40LT radios are listed as the same. With the two F40GS-1 radios, I had 5 units that could operate there. Now my SHTF plan is in the normal 440 band. RS Make it a P25 Digital repeater and nobody but a major scanner jockey would be able to hear you. And, IIRC, as long as you don't interfere with anyone you're legal as a Tech. |
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Major Communications Geeks!
I am one too. LMAO!! We took to OP from SSB CB radios to an APCO P25 digital repeater. That's a pretty good run of real estate. A P25 or DStar unit would definitely fill the bill as your comms would be off-limits to most everyone that really mattered. That, to me, is very important, since keeping your supplies safe doesn't allow broadcasting info in the open. I have been reluctant to base my SHTF or PAW tactical communications such as the OP was wanting on frequencies available to anyone with a 40 dollar radio from the local department store. At least one would want the ability to use other frequencies if one needed to operate clandestinely during times of societal disruption. (Of course you would want to be operating legally during normal times). Being 8 miles from a major urban area is probably not far enough to keep scavengers from roving into the area. I believe that keeping your comms as private (as finances allow) until easily available fuel supplies run out would be extremely important. The UHF T-band frequencies have always be intriguing to me since there are no users within 100 miles, but back to reality.. Incidentally, my frigging Uniden GMRS repeater is down again-no transmit power. Arrggghh!! RS |
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Quoted:
Using a repeater in the 420-430 band is not bandplan but if there are not any fast scan UHF TV users around, who is going to know. They do allow FM links in the band edges, so sneaking a backyard repeater on there might be cool as long as you didn't advertise it. As a matter of fact, I was considering just that before I bought the two F40GS-2 440-480mhz radios. My F43GS is rated 400-470 mhz and the two F40LT radios are listed as the same. With the two F40GS-1 radios, I had 5 units that could operate there. Now my SHTF plan is in the normal 440 band. RS I know some folks runned fed surplus Quantars as P25 ham reapeaters on the bottom half of the 440 band like that......... |
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It depends on how many shekels you want for them. I just ordered a couple of Casio Brigade phones and a used F33GS, so the radio money jar is kinda empty. Actually, the Uniden ARU-251 or whatever it is was headed up to the local amatuer radio group to be re-crystalled and put on one of the intinerant 440 ham freqs that SERA has listed. With a non-heatered transmit crystal, it would have been a nice battery portable repeater for the upper Jocassee Lake areas. I still have two more weeks of Friday/Saturday overtime before I can bring it to the house and see if it is fixable.
RS |
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So I found a reference to this in another thread:
http://www.hamradio.com/cgi-bin/uncgi/ase?ITEM=FT-2900R+&model=Model It won't work for my local solution, because again, my wife is not going to get an amature license. However, I'm wondering if it could work for my "out of the area" radio. I know I won't be able to get out 300+ miles with it, but someone commented that they were able to make 200+ mile contacts with an elevated antenna. I've got 30' trees next to the house. My thinking is that for $200 I could be set up with radio, antenna, power supply and coax and have commuciations capability out to 200 miles. Not HF I know, but a lot of capability for the money. And because it would be based on ground prop as opposed to sky wave it should be good reliable commuications. So what do you'all think, feasible? Another question. Is there a repeater network on 2 m like there is on 70 cm? Yes, I know I said I was trying to get "off grid com" capability, but I'm just curious if a repeater network would be available in "normal" times. Thanks. . |
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Okay, so I've got my general now, thanks to the good advise of many on this forum. And the 2 meter in the truck seems to be working good despite my total lack of know how concerning radio installation.
I'm starting to think about an entry level HF. Trying to keep it basic and economical. But I also want it reliable and upgradeable. Would this be a good deal if I could pick it up for around $200? http://cgi.ebay.com/Icom-IC-730-HF-Ham-Radio-100Watt-WARC-bands_W0QQitemZ120562377364QQihZ002QQcategoryZ163857QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286.m7QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D3%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8902033531227580289 (how do I make this a link so you all don't have to cut and paste it into your browers) I figure I'd just need to add a power supply and dipole to get started, and could think about an external tuner later as finances permit. Thoughts? |
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(how do I make this a link so you all don't have to cut and paste it into your browers) clicky here Quoted:
I figure I'd just need to add a power supply and dipole to get started, and could think about an external tuner later as finances permit. - Samlex 1223 power supply. - dipoles made from home depot wire. - LDG autotuner. Quoted:
Thoughts? i would still get an IC718 ahead of the 730. better receiver, modern design, excellent starter HF radio. ar-jedi |
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Incidentally, my frigging Uniden GMRS repeater is down again-no transmit power. Arrggghh!! RS Want to buy a complete Regency unit (repeater, amp, power supply, duplexer all in the fcatory cabinet) with 3 spare repeaters? Tell me more? Good @arrl.net 73 Steve K9ZW BLOG: With Varying Frequency - Amateur Radio Ponderings |
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Quoted: Quoted: Thanks for the replies. A couple of things. I had the impression that the range of GMRS would never be adequate for what I want to do because, irregardless of power, it is UHF and strictly limited to line-of-sight. From the replies I'm getting I'm starting to wonder if this is really true. Is it reasonable to think that 40 w mobile to mobile GMRS radios could give me reliable communications out to 10 miles or so? Is it reasonable to think that putting in a GRMS home base station with an elevated antenna could give me a mobile to base range out to 20? If so, then perhaps I should be looking and GMRS as opposed to SSB CB. Keep in mind that I don't want to have to rely on repeaters for this - that's just going to make me dependent on a different kind of grid. Yeah, 35-50w GMRS mobiles with good antennas will eaily give you 10 miles vehicle to vehicle in the kind of flat terrian in your area, and if you get an antenna up in the air car to base at 20 miles is quite doable. Keep in mind that with a GMRS license you can also put up your own repeater, and have full control over it and how well it is provided with backup power if you ever wanted to. A buddy of mine put a GMRS repater on his silo, and he has a few dozen other families that contribute funds for the upkeep in exchange for being able to use it. Get good radios, and get good antennas- make sure your antennas are NMO mounted dead center in the roof of your vehicles for max performance. Mount your base antenna as high as possible, and feed it with good quality hardline, not cheap coax. If you wanted more power, a UHF Motorola Maratrac, Syntor X, Syntor X9000 or Spectra putting out 100 watts wouldn't be legal (50w limit) but you can run it on low power unless you have an "emergency" to stay legal. Okay guys, I'm a bit confused. I thought one of the stipulations of GMRS was that the antennae cannot be modified or over a certain size or something like that. Are you saying that on the GMRS band, I can simply get a radio that functions on those freqs, slam up my own antenna and I'm gtg? This would be awesome considering I live in town and the NGA network is not dependable from my home (trees, buildings, 48 miles to the closest repeater, etc.). Hmm, now that I think about it, I was around 30 miles from the closest repeater on my first range check the other day. Rain was coming down and there were pleanty of obsticals to my LOS and I think I was on it....... :-/ I say "I think" because after ending transmission, I heard the line go live for a second or so then dead again. I assumed this was the dual freq thing going on and time delay to make me hear the end of my own transmission. Close? I'm only Tx'ing the max wattage, could my Motorola MR355R really be that good? ATL-226 |
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Okay guys, I'm a bit confused. I thought one of the stipulations of GMRS was that the antennae cannot be modified or over a certain size or something like that. Are you saying that on the GMRS band, I can simply get a radio that functions on those freqs, slam up my own antenna and I'm gtg? This would be awesome considering I live in town and the NGA network is not dependable from my home (trees, buildings, 48 miles to the closest repeater, etc.). Hmm, now that I think about it, I was around 30 miles from the closest repeater on my first range check the other day. Rain was coming down and there were pleanty of obsticals to my LOS and I think I was on it....... :-/ I say "I think" because after ending transmission, I heard the line go live for a second or so then dead again. I assumed this was the dual freq thing going on and time delay to make me hear the end of my own transmission. Close? I'm only Tx'ing the max wattage, could my Motorola MR355R really be that good? ATL-226 FRS says no detachable antennas. GMRS run any antenna you want. Technically you can't go over 60 feet above the ground or 20 feet over a tree or building it is attached to, but that law is rarely if ever enforced, and going any higher than that starts costing a lot of money anyway. You likely heard the "squelch tail" of the repeater, meaning your signal made it in and caused the repeater to transmist, and they continue transmitting briefly after you stop. Your radio looks like it puts out about 1.3 watts on GMRS, and if the repeater is in a good location and well configured it is very possible to raise it at that distance with that power. You would do even better with some "real" GMRS radios, meaning professional grade stuff programmed for GMRS. But yes, you can run up to 50 watts from mobile and base radios, up to 5 watts from a handheld, and put up a nice antenna at home. |
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Heh, heh, heh! I'm all excited now! I'll have to research the "real" radios. Any recommendations? N-Thanks! For affordable mobile/base radio the Motorola Maxtrac or any of the Kenwood TK-8xx line work well and are affordable. For hanhelds the Motorola Saber, HT600, P200, HT-750/1250/1550 and much of the GP series all work well. There are good offerings from Kenwood and Icom also but I am partial to Motorola. Almost all these require special software and cables to program, so if you don't want to invest in those make sure whoever you buy from will program it for you. [shameless plug] I have some radios in the EE now[/shameless plug] |