[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SHTF...really? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 1/1/2008 7:05:55 PM EDT
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No flame intended, and please don't flame me in return but, what EXACTLY do you people expect to happen?? I know all the lines..."better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it" etc etc... I mean, i'm prepared(mentally, I mean) to protect myself/family/property here in yuppyville USA (NJ) with force if necessary but i'm certainly not preparing myself for the russians to start invading (anybody ever see Red Dawn?? haha) and guerilla warfare. I see everybody with all their tactical gear (body armor, knee pads, helmets blah blah). To what logical end are you collecting this stuff? Who are you expecting to be running from/fighting against? Again, i'm not meaning to flame or pick at your reasoning... actually more like trying to understand it. Anybody want to help me out? Just wondering out loud I guess... |
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well, the short answer would be lawlesness. LA Riots, Katrina (and not just what the national news reported), are a couple examples. the unfortunate truth is a lot of us have to live in areas where the local populace wouldn't react too well to natural disasters, economic problems, etc... I'm sure more people will be in shortly to give you a more thorough rundown of why we train, but I wiil say that its fun and gives a lil more peice of mind. Speed |
| Both of what Ops and Speed says. Ever wonder how high the gas prices will go before people can't afford to go to work? That will make bad things start to happen in a hurry. I am sure we will see at least this happen sooner than later. Not to mention God knows what other event can lead to social breakdown. I can just imagine what may happen if the local rats can't afford to buy the gas to cruise down to the crack house. |
No need to worry, if anything bad happens the fire department, police, National Guard, FEMA, Hillary Clinton or the Red Cross will come save you. Don't bother preparing for emergencies the gubmint will always be there to pass out some cheese. That Socialist Security scheme will pay for your retirement. Yes some people go to extremes in prepping for Armagedon, it makes them sleep better at night. What about it? Yes I have seen Red Dawn (see sig line), I also saw this movie called Katrina does the gulf coast. J-K |
| I "collect" because all governments inevitably fail, and ours seems to be headed in that direction pretty quickly. And even if it doesn't fail I simply don't trust it or, sadly, a lot of the people in this country. When things fail, if I am still alive, I want every advantage over anyone wishing to do me harm or get in my way that I can have both physically, mentally, and as far as what I pack. |
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ohhh i see your delima. SHTF= Shit Hits The Fan Delimma solved. haha..jk, i agree with most above, a raid, a nuclear attack, russia decides to use their power or china their far superior numbers against us....Anything that COULD happen on U.S. soil. The one thing they'll regret is stepping over here, there's more killing machines with guns ready to blow the heads of of zombies at home in the U.S. than there are in the u.s. millitary all over the world.... Bring it on, bitches 
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NJITMETAL -- I too live in NJ. Try reading Lights out. I did it a few weeks ago. 600 pages plus and I read it in 5 days and I don't read. It kept my interest the whole time. It's fiction...today at least. Do yourself a favor and read it. At least give the 1st 100 pages a chance. If your not hooked by then so be it. Heres a link give it a try: www.giltweasel.com/stuff/LightsOut-Current.pdf Jer |
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Many Moons ago, I read a book "900 Days", concerning the siege of Leningrad during WW2. The Ruskies nearly lost a generation of boys during that time as young adolescent males need a shit load of food during the growing stages. And I have some neat grandkids, who I could never face, not having prepared for most any tragic/shtf event..... So for far less than a wild weekend in Vegas with hookers and blow, I think I got them covered, grub wise. |
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Njitmetal - I too live in in NJ and it's not all about guns but actually more about butter and the safety of my family. The following is from the NJ OEM:
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i'm guessing from your screen name that you go to NJIT, in Newark. one of the country's busiest airports is a mile away. the country's busiest maritime port is two miles away. the country's most populated urban center is ten miles away. the country's most important financial district is ten miles away. just out of curiosity, where were you on 9/11 at 9am? my brother was walking off the Jersey City ferry, headed to the NYMEX. my brother-in-law was on floor 34 of WTC2 getting a bagel with other Merrill traders. my sister was arriving at 1 Wall Street at BONY. trust me, none of them look at "daily" SHTF preparedness the same. ar-jedi ps: here is some food for thought --> islamic-whacko-of-the-month puts a package in a rail car. you react quick, think, and live --or-- you are a dead sheep. ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=10&f=17&t=607398 pps: all this doesn't mean you live in fear. it just means you live prepared. i've been to NYC dozens of times since 9/11, and i have flown all over the world as well. but i always remember what was and what could be, and prepare for it.   |
I've seen pictures of BoBs, and of course, guns and ammo, but pictures of body armor, knee pads, helmets? In the Survival Forum? Maybe you were paying a visiting to the airsoft forum by mistake. Please post a link(s). I'd like to see! |
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My big concerns are terrorist nukes or bio weapons, avian flu or other pandemic, accidental nuke exchange with Russia because of malfunctioning computer chip If I lived in other parts of the country, the list might include things like hurricanes or tsunamis or earthquakes. Lesser concerns include ice-storm-type events, economic things, extended power failures. Those are all, in my opinion, realistic possibilities. |
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Are you prepared so that you could stay home for 6 weeks if there is a pandemic? There won't be any going to the store , you wouldn't want to bring something home in the way of sickness. You live in the big city , I don't , Can you and your family make it without electricity for 3 weeks if the grid has a catastrophic failure? Doesn't hurt to have enough to last a couple weeks or a month as far as food and water just in case something comes up. One last thing , a couple weeks ago there was a article in either a AUS. paper or a UK paper (I've looked but I can't find it) the Australian .gov was telling people to have 10 weeks food and water in case of pandemic. AUS. is the first stop out of the Orient by air and boat. Not for if but for when the pandemic happens. They figure it will in the next few years. They figure it will take 8 to 10 weeks to run it's coarse around the world and expect minimum 7.5 million plus dead before it's under control. Will you go to work or the store if something like that starts anywhere around the world with travel the way it is today. One person could carry a bug to 4 Continent's in 24 hours. The last flu in 1918 killed millions so fast that in NY and NJ the caskets were stacked on the streets , they couldn't bury them fast enough. Have a Happy and Safe and Prepared New Year......... 
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Treble hook troll ... |
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I will give you my What and Why. I have been lurking around this board for sometime mainly on the EE. I have always had a small amount of stuff put aside for emergency use, but an event that occured in my state in the summer of 2006 opened my eyes. During that summer a realy nasty storm blew in and damn near all of St Louis City and St Louis County was with out power, with 100 plus temps and a boil water order after the storm was finished. I am a Sgt for the St Louis County Police and I was the only Sgt working day watch and was the acting watch comander. I got to see, from the inside, how the county and city emergency operation center came on line to start dealing with the mess. We have some very good people working for our emergency management, but It became very clear that any relief that they were going to supply was not going to be fast. Bottom line, and our SHTF issue was not that bad, is that in a crisis you are not going to get help from the government in a timley fashion, and it is up to you to make sure that you have what you need. Even when help starts showing up, it will not be much and the first resources to make it to a SHTF location are going to go quick. |
Have you ever been told "if you have too ask you can't afford it." Kinda' works out the same here "if you have to ask you can't understand the reason" but here are some photos of events power loss Aug 2003 looks like NJ is included.  Hurricane Rita several members here had to deal with this one 
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Either you're a troll (which I doubt) or you're trying to poke a sharp stick into a dog backed into a corner...neither is very smart. Or, you could-quite possibly, actually have a real curiousity into the mind of a Prepared individual. The truth is, you didn't have to read past the second or third repsonse (Thanks Ops) to answer all your questions...but this one prolly hit home:
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he's probably thinking of the armory section as to the gear, knee pads, etc. imo. i have a plate carrier. i also have hundreds of rounds (yeah yeah i know needs to be thousands, but i'm working on it) of ammo. I have about 3 months worth of supplies. i live in the hood, but thankfully have not been victimized yet. Imo, my gear is for the upcoming war against the jihadists. if you think that we're not lined up for a battle on us soil, your sadly mistaken. |
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the SHTF daily somewhere, just look. edited to add: NJ was on the map today for a bomb threat at a mall. it's only a matter of time before something F'd up happens to you or someone you care about. it may end up not being as F'd up an event in many situations if you take as many precautions as possible, including preparing to deal with any events you can't avoid... i guess this is just another way of saying "better to have it and not need it" but either way it's a true to life sentiment. as far as the guns and other gear, well hell that's just another hobby that meshes well with living a prepared lifestyle... |
Can you feed your family as well? Not all shtf wet dreams consist of holding out the homestead against hordes of MZB's/JBT's and going down in a blaze of glory saving your wife and kids.... it will mostly be some other mundane event such as a winter time power outage,fuels hortage or economic collpase...or even more personal you trip break a leg ,you get fired, hurt in a car wreck, house fire, robbery etc..... either way there is a one COMMON thing that will need to be done from the wet dream of reddawn to reality... well make that 3 things eat,sleep,shit......... it isnt about "protecting" or "gear" everydamn time
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This is an excellent point. When this guy is working his butt off trying to handle a crisis, I don't want to be part of the problem. He doesn't have to worry about me, my family, and my extended family for months. He doesn't have to show up and help us or give us anything. We will be just fine, so he can pay attention to the sheeple and try to maintain civilization. If he fails to maintain control, we will still be just fine, and I hope he is prepared enough to be able to bail out and get somewhere safe. |
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OK, for some reason no one seems to believe me that I'm not picking at your reasoning... as I said I was trying to understand it. so thank you to the people who responded with that in mind. I'm not a "troll"... I've been on this forum for just a few months and i've been trying to gather info for my first AR15 and in the process I observed some things I had never really encountered or thought of to the same extent so my curiousity finally peaked and I figured I'd ask. Again, thanks to those that offered some insight. 
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also, to answer a common question... no, I am NOT prepared to feed my family (currently just my new bride and me ) but after having read this, I see a logic to probably stock up on supplies such as that. so, in some effect, to some degree, I too will be preparing! I simply had never really put any level of thought into it so it was just something different I observed.No need for everyone to get defensive... sorry if I came across offensive: not intended.  |
Hey I like the knee pads, I have bad knees and after crawling on your knees they are worth every penny, so is my helmet it works better for mounting the PVS14 than the head strap that comes with it. I have made sure I have the ablity to take care of my family for 60 days if need be, I also prepared myself to bug in or bug out depending on the disaster. So yes maybe I'm over prepared but it truly is "better to not need, than not have and need" ETA I actually use the knee pads anytime I have to work on my hands and knees, gardening, repair work its nice not having a chunk of rock bury itself in your knee. |
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When in a small town in Montana, there were several occasions in which supplies were cut off for up to a coupla weeks as temps were in the -35 range and roads were iced. No milk, no eggs, no bread, nada. In a small town that understands this and prepares for this, it's a nuisance. If it were to happen in a large metropolitan area, could be bad. Floods are my main area a focus where I presently live, but there are other potential natural disasters as well; large fires, earthquakes, and Mt St Helens is well within eyeshot. Your government has plans for immediate action to take care of it's "senior members" in times of such emergencies, so should you. Your government has plans for bringing in supplies to affected areas but it takes time and let's imagine that it works without a hitch: What are you going to eat during that time? how are you going to purify water in this time? how are you going to keep warm? Bathroom facilities? and on and on. Now what happens if/when the gov't plans do not work as planned? ...and I'm not even going into emergencies such as pandemics, terrorist threats, economic collapse, etc... There is an old addage that goes something along the lines of "Those that do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it." I saw what happened in New Orleans, and I can say with a good deal of certainty; not me, or at least not to the degree that it happened to some. The question of "to what logical end?" is a good one, each has a different answer. To me, 3-4 weeks of self sufficiency should get anyone through most situations. I can live quite well in my home for this time period with no added supplies and can be mobile in an hour if necessary. Some feel more is necessary, so be it, I have no place to argue with them. I'm always adding, a little here, a little there, as long as this doesn't hinder my family's lifestyle or take away from other goals we have. |
Who says hes not finished yet? I live 30minutes from GC on the Columbia River. In reality though we doubt the dams would be a traget (it would take a hell of a force to take her out, and that many terroists would stand out here. No its more likely they would hit the transmission lines and switchyards. That would still throw the west coast into darkness for quite a long time. |
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NJIT...Rutgers Newark here. FWIW, I've always planned for the what ifs the best I can with my limited financial resources. Last May / June I spent 8 sessions with the FBI down by Penn Station in that new, non-descript office building next to Don Pepe's. Let me tell you this, I have NEVER been so committed to planning for the SHTF situation after this training. Four years in the Coast Guard, two of which were living in Alaska will show you that shit happens all the time. Most of the time it is two or three minor chain of events that lead to a big problem. I grew up on Newark's northern border and have lived on High St, now MLK Blvd when I went to Rutgers, lived in the Ironbound section and in Bloomfield. Post 9/11, I got my family the hell out of there and moved NW to the hills. Best planning I ever did. The guns and ammo stuff is fun, food and water are essential. But sometimes to get food and water, you might have to fight your way in or defend what you have. Get a copy of the list that details the 100 things that disappear during an emergency and start from there. |
And that NE power failure was traced back to a transformer in Indiana. That's how fragile the grid is. That big failure in the NW about 10 years ago was caused by one little coal plant that had a problem, collapsed the grid in 5 states. You don't need Rooskies, zombies or even an ice storm some times to put things on hold and require self-reliance. |
Its good to keep in mind that people come to this forum for two reasons. The first is information both gaining and sharing. The second is entertainment and some topics are simply more fun than others. This is a gun forum so naturally guns get a lot of attention but doesn't mean those who own guns do not have common sense. There's no reason why a person can not prepare for hard times and have a little fun with it at the same time. For some of us, if not most of us, we've been around long enough to have actually had to use those preparations for one thing or another. It makes you realize just how important they are. In many ways, it simplifies your life. Its kind of nice to not have to hit the panic buy lines before a storm or after one. Its kind of nice when the heat goes off in winter to not have to go running off to the Holiday Inn or a relatives while your pipes freeze and burst. Yes, its even nice when a mugger pulls out his knife and demands your wallet to show him your gun and say, "Not today." Tj |
We are not really that offended. Alot of folks think were nuts so we get used to it anyway! You are in the right place. Don't over do it. Slow and steady is the way to get what you need. Simple things like a bag of good regular rice can feed you and your wife for a long time. A few cans of food a month will build up quick. Don't buy anything you wouldn't nomally eat, except rice that keeps for a very long time if you take care of it. I mark my cans with a date so I can rotate stock and my food is always ready. This lifestyle is not about fear, but peace of mind. We are not hermits or wierdos who live in caves or coat our walls in tin foil, but regular folk you meet every day. We just choose not to be victims, ever. |
Yup. I was there and most people were screwed. Then six months later a big ice storm did part two, and once again a half million customers were without power |
njtmetal your original post I don't think is offensive in my opinion. Like you stated your just picking our brain. I prep not only for me but for my family. I do not want to my family nor I waiting in long lines for handouts after a disaster or even financial hardship. It's not a matter of pride but a matter of staying away from potential problems. I tend to stick to the KISS principle with my weapons, food, and shelter. I don't expect an army to be invading my area anytime soon. Hell the Navy and the Marines are here. Land, sea, and air are covered. My immediate concern are natural disasters like earthquake and wild fires in my area. Financial and the rest comes secondary. My suggestion to you is to keep your eyes and ears open for events around your area and others as well. Prep accordingly. |
Read this entire thread, it explains the reason & need to prepare...real SHTF www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=10&f=17&t=606652&page=1 pay attention to ShaneS and his personal experience in Katrina |
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To each, their own. If you dont want to prepare, thats your own business. Just dont expect us to help bail you out when the grocery store is empty and the power goes off. Please dont preach to us if you think what we do is a waste of time. Some of us have been through personal life experiences that we value much more than a post from a stranger. Even boy scouts prepare....shouldnt you? |
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Words of ancient wisdom that still apply today: Ever seen how hard an ant works?
I prepare because it is wise and enriching. I do not believe in impending economic or militaristic collapse, but because I am hopefully humble enough to not make assumptions about my lifestyle. IMHO, invasions such as happened in WWII are things of the past. Invasions are now political and migrant. Look at the U.S. and Europe - we are both being invaded by people with conflicting ideologies that we failed to assimilate into our way of thinking. That approach is much easier than one by force, and conforms to some of the oldest military strategy in existence (Sun Tzu): Attack their plans first (political), then their alliance (international politics), then their cities (military force). |
Wow! See, thats what I was asking for. That sheds as much light on this topic as anything could. Thanks for posting that. |
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I don't expect an accident to occur tomorrow, but I carry insurance on my vehicles if it does. I've paid eleven years of insurance on the house, and will use that in the near future since a wind storm took a bunch of shingles just before Christmas. Life insurance is for my kids benefit. I don't expect global chaos tomorrow either, but if it happens, I'm covered. Same goes for a chemical spill on the railroad a couple miles south of here. Bottom line, you either cover basic survival for yourself, on your property, or where you can get to it and defend it, or else you depend on other people to take care of your basic survival when things go wrong. Canned food and a stockpile of water is insurance, for the time you can't get to the store, or when the store can't sell you what you need. I get snowed in here all the time, just 35 minutes from a major metro area, because it's wide open flat ground for miles. A five inch snow leaves huge bare areas, and two foot drifts. A nine inch snow covers everything and leaves 5 to 6 foot drifts. I can blast through a three footer, dig through a short four footer, but after that, I stay home and eat what I have stored up here. The power goes out all the time. I reset all my clocks at least once a month. The longest outage was for two days, a couple years back. But just half a mile west of me, they were out for five to seven days when lightning hit a rural substation (I saw it hit, it looked cooll) and the main transformer (well, something that looked like a huge transformer to me) had to be brought in on a flatbed truck, while the substation was rebuilt around a new unit. I was very deep in the back country wilderness of Colorado on 9/11, didn't even know about it till a couple days later, and as I drove the 1500 miles home, two weeks later, I stopped directly worrying about terrorists with nukes, or even chemicals and bio-weapons. The country is just too damn big to damage in any real or permanent way. Of course, people who live in or near cities have to worry about these things, but I don't. If Russia gets uppity, maybe, but they don't seem able to pay their army, much less fund a global takeover. I have multiple sets of camo because I shoot competitively, and a pair of pants designed for competitive shooting runs about $100, where a pair of BDU pants only cost $20. I don't care even a little bit about shooting from a muddy position on the range in BDUs, because they're designed for just that, and because I never wear them anywhere else. The one scenario that keeps me preparing beyond that necessary for a three day snowstorm or power outage, is when Osama finally wises up and sends twenty guys over here, ten of them with one crate of grenades each, and ten of them with sniper rifles. One transmission line running from northeast Ohio to southeast Michigan took down the US grid for several days a couple years back. If we can't protect 2000 miles of our mexican border, what chance do we have to protect 100,000 miles of electrical transmission towers in remote areas, from guys with a box of grenaes each, and a schedule using times and GPS coordinates to suppress big pieces of our electrical grid, and KEEP it suppressed? From the news I see, Osama has been "playing" with the Pakistani electrical grid for three years now. At the very least, somebody is blowing up transmission towers and substations over there. When the power goes out, pumps no longer work. That means no gasoline, and no water. Maybe one station in a five mile square area will hook up a generator to get two pumps delivering gasoline from underground tanks, but the lines to get gas there will be so long that the tanks run dry before many get their cars filled. When the kitchen faucet starts blowing air, you have 72 hours to find water before dehydration INCAPACITATES you. One guy with a sniper rifle had all of Washington DC terrified for weeks. What could ten guys with rifles and an attitude, moving from hide to hide along major city beltways do to normal daily commerce? Especially if the grid was in and out and rumor was replaing TV as the main news source? If that's not enough to worry you, then look at Katrina. No power, no transportation, and no electricity, and within 72 hours, they were eating each other. Ok, maybe cannibalism was a media exaggeration, but things sucked real bad there regardless of where they were getting their protein. Once you have enough food and water stockpiled to last a couple month, and enough gasoline for emergency travel, you realize that if you ever need to use your stockpiles, you are sitting on a gold mine. Like Fort Knox, without the vault. Even the church deacon, when faced with his starving wife and kids, might get desperate enough to do you harm if he thinks your stockpile might buy his child one more day of life. Enter tactical gear, load bearing equipment, buttbags, and milspec backpacks. You might get forced out of the pocket, and have to fight and move at the same time. There's a reason the military outfits themselves the way they do, it's because they have to fight and move. After you've set up several months of food and water, another hundred bucks for a backpack and webgear seems a small price to pay to ensure your insurance. You can keep going from there. I'm sure that some survivalists have a million dollars or more in their set-ups, bunkers, machine guns and rocket launchers and generators big enough to power a particle accelerator. Well, okay, it's their money. But I don't expect to fix a nationwide disaster by myself. Either there will be a lot of people just like me, who thought ahead and covered basic survival in advance to help, or there won't. All I'm concerned with is enough food and water to last me through the transition period, from dependance on others to self reliance. If I can't adjust to forage, hunt, trap, trade for, and grow enough food to feed myself and family in six months, it simply isn't going to happen and we will die. But I have that six months, and that's enough for me. Six months worth of canned food cost me less than $1000. Rifles, sidearms, ammo, and web gear cost me another $4000. Most people my age, 45+, have at least $10,000 socked away somewhere, most of it in cash and securities. Instead of holding all cash, I took half that ten thousand and bought the exact same stuff I would have spent it on anyway, just now, instead of later. Survival, the food and water, and fun, the rifles, ammo, and competition gear. If the firearms ever get fired off the range, well, that's a bonus for me, isn't it? For the most part, I'm done. When I'm too lazy to go to the store, or the snow is too deep, I eat from my stockpile. When the power goes out, I drink from my stockpile. Next trip to town, I replenish what I used, maintain my insurance policy, and rotate my stocks. Ammo goes to practice and matches, and rotation isn't a problem there either. I'd like to buy some night vision, because I camp a lot and for the same reason I'd like to get a bass guitar. It's a neat toy. If it serves me in a SHTF situation, so much the better. I have lasers I never thought I'd need, and one ended up serving as a long distance level when I dug my pond, and set grade for my pole barn. The pond keeps at least three acres of mine and my neighbor's property from being a three inch deep quagmire most of the spring and fall. Right now, it also holds 120,000 gallons of SHTF drinking water. My jeep takes me up remote mountain trails in Colorado on vacations, and if SHTF, it might get me around one last roadblock to get home to my family and my stockpiles of food, water, and guns. The point is that survival and preparedness doesn't have to be paranoia, it doesn't have to lead to a Waco style compound, and it doesn't have to cost money forever. Once you reach a certain level of preparedness, it's like an insurance policy. You stick the paperwork in your safe deposit box, pay the maintenence fees, and mostly forget about it. Right up till the morning you wake up to planes flying into skyscrapers, or mushroom clouds over New York City, or the tiny little LED showing on the alarm clock that tells you the power is out. Or, perhaps, the day your boss says, "we've been bought out by Global Alliance, and you arre no longer needed here, thanks for your service, you're fired." At any of those points, money in the bank is a very, very, very reassuring feeling. Money in the bank, and food and water in the closet, and enough weapons in the safe to make it a wash for predators to try and take away your livelihood, is even better. |
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Why have body armor, mmmm well it does come in handy. Back when I was 14 some one dumped two dead people on my parents farm. My parent saw them from a distant. Not enough to actually identify them but apperently enough to make the killers nervous. For the next month we had a problem with someone occaisonally shooting at us. They shot out the living room window, got the truck, livestock, and bullet holes in random things. Close calls but no one got shot thankfully. For a long time I decided that was just a rare occurance. After Katrina I decided enough was enough, it could happen again. So I got myself a vest. Also I got my faith shaken in trusting the wisdom of the general population. I had been continually told the two people that died were just people traveling through the area and probably involved in something bad. It was a lie, they had lived around here for years. One of their old friends felt guilty and had to finally mention the truth. So people in a attempt to keep up the apparence of a peaceful neigborhood will tell some huge lies, its creepy. Sheeple can't be trusted. |