Posted: 11/17/2007 4:27:43 PM EDT
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What would you use to treat the following: 1. Eastern Diamondback 2. Copperhead 3. Water Moccasin Just to satisfy the lawyers. SHTF, ER is closed, etc. |
I actually heard some years ago about applying DC voltage across the bitten area... something about it neutralized the toxin, that is if you do it quick enough before it spreads throughout you bod. I can't remember exactly... maybe it was a bunch of crap but I saw it on TV (that MUST make it true eh?  ) ... just researched it, I wasn't smoking pot that night... scroll to the bottom... called electro-shock method www.wf.net/~snake/firsdisc.htmIf true then that Taser you got... time to use it!! 
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Man, that's a really tough subject and without writing a book all you can really say is it depends. Knowing what kind of snake bit you is pretty important but unless you were Mr. Dummy messing with one, the odds are you won't know. Having been there, I can tell you when you pull up your hand and there is a snake sticking in it teeth first, you aren't going to stop a minute and ask him his name. The next thing if you don't know is was it poisonous or not. You do this by watching the wound if a patient or patient symptoms. Not something we can teach you on this forum but there's some great books on the topic. Slowing the poison entering the bloodstream is a good idea but applying a tourniquet without knowing what you are doing can also cost someone a limb. Its why without training, its now recommended to not do that anymore. Lacerating and aspirating the poison to reduce the impact is a old method of helping some. The problem with that though is it changes the bite area making snake identification almost impossible which makes your odds worse since the doctor will have a harder time determining which anti-serum you should get. You see having the right anti-serum will do more good than any amount of the poison you may be able to get out. Do aspiration too soon, and you won't be able to tell if it was poisonous or not until the physical symptoms are really bad. The first indicator is the wound. Sucking it with your mouth even using the old coat your mouth with olive oil is a bad idea since now you impacted two people and if the person doing the aspirating has an open nerve in their teeth, they can be worse off than the person bit. I totally detest the trigger snake bite kit aspirators found on the net. They're miserable gimmicks that can do more harm than good. If you have to aspirate and there is no get them to the hospital option, a plain syringe using your knife to cut the end is better than the gimmick trigger things that have very little control on the suction. Even if you do all this stuff, then you have to care for the patient for some of the poison will do its work anyway. We're not going to be able to teach you much here in one forum. If you really want to know do a lot of research not only in field initial treatment, but snake identification and patient care after treatment. Don't surprised that it will mean some training. The best advice you are going to get on this forum is what Waldo gave, don't get bit. I've spent much of my life outdoors and have only been bitten once. That was in the water swimming. There are some rules I was taught from the time I could walk that I have lived by. 1. Leave snakes alone. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that the vast majority of people bitten are either trying to catch the snake or kill it. If at home, use a gun preferably a shotgun or bird shot or use a hoe. 2. Don't step over logs or rocks unless you have no choice but step on them. 3. Wear boots and long pants when in the forest. 4. Don't put your hands under rock crevices, in holes, or camp around holes. 5. Snakes are cold blooded and like warmth. Cover your sleeping bag when not in use. They make terrible bed fellows. 6. Most people are smarter than snakes. Keep one eye pealed for them. 7. If you absolutely have to move one. Don't try to trap them then move them. Simply use a long stick, go under them, and chuck them the hell away. A boat paddle works great for this when one drops in your boat. 8. Know your snakes. Most snakes aren't poisonous and really a benefit. Besides rodents, they also often are enemies to poisonous snakes. I would much rather share the land with a nice big black snake than a copperhead. Books are great but I tell you when the adrenaline is flowing it isn't the same. I'm a big fan of snake houses in zoos. Its a great way to get to know what snakes look like and how to identify them. Different snakes have different temperaments. The only really bad attitude territorial poisonous snake in the US is the Cottonmouth. The others aren't going to mess with you unless you do them first. See rule number 1. Hope this helps a little. Tj |
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A health dose of venom from a pit viper is one of them. You make it or you don't. Cut and suck doesn't work. There are mixed reviews on the Sawyer Extractor. The Cutter SBK is true junk. Try to slow the spread of poison by perhaps applying cool rags or even careful use of ice packs, avoiding physical activity, maybe a loose band to slow lymphatic flow, maybe a couple of sucks with the Sawyer, and pray you had a dry stike. 
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 Sorry you don't like it, but do you have access to the proper hemotoxic antivenom? What other choices do you have? Odds are you'll live through a Copperhead bite without too many problems, OTOH you could die from a bee sting, even if you have an Epipen. Hell, my wife is a nurse and I doubt if my outcome would be any better in the wild just because of that fact. |
1. hard to say what will happen. 2. you will probably live. not many people die from copperhead bites unless they are allergic. 3. same as above. nothing more than just a painful bite. dont waist your time on snake bite kits. they are nothing more than a waist of time and money. your best bet is to keep the bite below the level of your heart, keep as calm as possible and get to help ASAP. nothing else you can really do. |
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I have to chime in here as I worked with venomous and non venomous snakes for 2 years at a wildlife park in FL. There are only two types of venom, neurotoxin and hemotoxin getting yourself bit a second time is just foolish. Not only knowing if the snake is a venomous one you have to take into consideration IF the snake actually envenomed you, it could be a dry bite, (no venom) sloppy bite (venom on the surface of the skin without significant envenomation) or a full blown envenomation. In a SHTF scenario you will NOT most likely have antivenom nor the proper meds in you go into anaphylaxis. The only native snake that produces significant neurotoxin in its venom is the coral snake, and to become envenomed to a significant extent you'd have to let the damed thing knaw on you ! Venom is a witch's brew of chemicals from enzymes to proteins. Hemotoxins are the most prevalent venoms in the US. Hemotoxins not only attack the ability of the blood to carry oxygen, but as I said, venom is also a mixture of enzymes. The function of witch is to partially digest tissue, thus having a necrotic effect local to the bite. Let me consult with a few friends before I go into SHTF snakebite treatment. Saying that, what would I do? First I'd ascertain what kind of bite I received, and try to ID the snake from a distance just for my own information. Then I would cleanse the area of the bite by cleaning AWAY from the punctures... Next I would use ANY mechanical means of suction I have available. YES I carry and EXTRACTOR kit as that is what I have trained with. I would then use ACE wraps to only compress the dermis, NOT cut off circulation!!!!!! (be able to easily put 2 fingers under the wrap.) Then I would PRAY!!!!!! 
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Thanks for the info guys. I live on the coast of Georgia, and hunt and fish a lot. We have 5 different venemous snakes locally, the three I listed and the coral snake, as well as the Canebreak Rattlesnake. I have encountered all 5 during my trips to the field, and to my knowledge, have never been struck. I wear knee high snake boots. A few years ago I was stung by a stingray, and ended up at the ER. I did everything wrong, and paid for it in pain. It turns out that the old BS sounding home remedy was based in truth. I had heard that an eppi-pen was the standard treatment for moccasin and copperhead bites, and wondered if you all could confirm/debunk that. |
oops..sorry. I iced the sting site down, when I should have urinated on it. the heat and ammonia from urine neutralizes the venom.  the heat breaks it down somehow, and my icing of it made it last a whole lot longer than it would have otherwise. I ended up with red streaks up my arm to my shoulder and my heart began to hurt by the time I got to the ER.I had figured it was like a nasty catfish stick... I didn't know those little bastards had venom in the stinger. |
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You take this advice for what it's worth and use your best judgement, when it comes to rattlers out here their venom is so toxic that you simply need to get to the DR. The venom starts to destroy the tissue so bad that if you don't get treatment soon and say you were bit on the finger, kiss your finger goodbye. get treatment. For myself when it comes to venom on six seperate occaisons I have a secret formula I have seen effective, this last october I actually had to use it on myself so I now it works. The person I learned this technique from was hit by a stingray in Mexico, the others were Bee and wasp/insect bites and mine was a caterpillar that turns into a flannel moth their barbs are loaded with venom and they fall out of trees. The method was to spray wd-40 on liberally over the sting area, not the brightest idea applying oil over your skin but it is synsethic so you won't die right there, like being with a high priced call girl in vegas you need to determine if its worth it or not. Something about the oil it pulls some of the venom out of the entrance wound. You'll still hurt, you will still be in pain but not as much as your buddies who suffered the same bites. Take it for what it is worth, with a snake bite your still going to the doctor either way. |
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This has been discussed many times over in this forum. From laypeople, and even from educated professionals, you will get incorrect or only partially correct answers mixed in with the right things to do. US snakes carry MOSTLY hemotoxic venom. However, all venoms are a mix of toxins, and most mixes carry both the hemo- and neuro- versions. We usually call the venom by whatever its primary ingredient are. Corals, as some have discussed, carry a neurotoxic venom. They're very uncommon snakes. They're shy. They're docile and hard to provoke into a strike. They do not handle stress well, and become unhealthy if stressed often. They make poor demo snakes, unlike many other native US venomous species. They have their venom fangs in the rear of their jaws, so they have to work up on you to get a good envenomation. Basically, they have to chew you. If this happens, you're an idiot. As far as the other native US venomous species, they cause very few deaths, mainly because of the availability of definitive care. Permanent damage and loss of appendages/digits does occur more frequently, but is still far less than it could be. Copperheads are a very low threat, as far as venom goes. Compared to rattlesnakes, copperheads cause almost no deaths, and very few permanent injuries. Some people could probably just ride it out without going to the hospital, but that's a very unsmart thing to do if one is available. As for care- if you're within a few hours of a hospital, you're probably good. Don't use tourniquets. Don't use constricting bands. Don't use anything except splints. Keep the patient calm, and as still as possible. Try to lower the affected area. Get the pt to the hospital, either by driving or by EMS. DO NOT: use ice, electricity, knives/blades, mouths, tourniquets, constricting bands, etc. If you're in the austere setting, 24 hours or more from definitive care, you're in a somewhat more precarious situation. Your bite victim may need some serious intervention. You have to juggle life over limb. If it's definitely a venomous species, and there's a high likelihood of a true envenomation, you'll want to try to slow or prevent the spread of venom from the affected area. A tourniquet could be indicated, but keep in mind that in the case of a hemotoxin, you're pooling all the venom in a localized area. This concentrates the effect of the destructive properties of the venom on tissues. You will cause more damage to an affected extremity, but if the potential to save a life is there, this may be the right choice. If it's a finger, I'm not going to think twice. If it's a hand or an arm, I might think about it a bit, but if it's a solid bite, and appears that it could've been a true envenomation, I'll probably TQ it, especially if I'm definitely 24-48 hours from a hospital that has or can get antivenin. DO NOT: use ice, electricity, blades/knives, mouths, or Aussie wraps. Research "aussie wrap." It's a correct technique for constricting the VENOUS flow of blood back to the heart from an extremity. It does not block arterial flow when applied properly, and is NOT a tourniquet. It is used for NEUROtoxins. NOT hemotoxins. I do not trust this technique to stop venous flow enough for an extended time with a hemo toxin, because it does not occlude blood flow deep inside the extremity. As tissues break down, the toxin will begin to leech into deeper tissues, and will have access to deeper veins that will eventually feed back to the heart. This is not a big problem with neurotoxins, since they don't break down tissues and cause this same leeching effect. With a hemotoxin, use a tourniquet, and learn to apply them properly. As for extractors, they've been repeatedly proven to do diddly squat for actual venom removal. However, if the bite victim does not know this, the extractor might provide some relief of psychological symptoms. By calming the pt, you slow their heart rate, which slows the spread of venom. A suction-type extractor does increase the risk of localized issue damage. |
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The Copperhead (Agkistrodon contortrix)and the Cottonmouth (agkistrodon piscivorus) compared to the rattle snakes have very weak venom. The two snakes above have almost the same venom (potency level). Keep the bite below heart level, stay calm. If you can get medical treatment you may want to do so, but the risk to long term health is very low The Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake (Crotalus adamanteus) and the Western Diamondback Rattlesnake (Crotalus atrox) are much more venomus. The Western DBR's venom is 25 times more potent than that of the Copperhead. There is about one death per year in the U.S. from snakebite, all of them from rattlesnakes (wild snakes, not zoo, or pet snakes) . The last stats I looked up was from 1950-2000 and 24 people had died from snake bites and well over 250 people had died from other stings abd bites from bees, wasps, spiders, and, scorpions. All of the deaths involved alcohol and the lack of rapid treatment. I think the alcohol had a big part in this not only from the poor judgement stand point but also from thinning of the blood. This is the reason you DO NOT WANT TO TAKE PAIN KILLERS that thin the blood, many do. The Coral Snake (Arizona, Eastern, Texas) are very venomus, but have very small heads that have very small fangs that are located at the back of the mouth. This makes it very hard for them to bite people. there are only a few places on a person they can bite you. One of the most common is the web between yout thumb abd forefinger, as it is a thin ares they can get their mouths around. Invisiblesoul |
| I once saw the result of a Copperhead bite where treatment was delayed (the victim was drunk and unpopular). It left a huge, ragged, crater looking lesion that looked like it might have been caused by acid or a blow torch. It covered one side of the calf area from ankle to knee, and averaged 1/4" deep. I'd hate having a bite 25 times that bad! |
chances are the majority of folks will carry MRSA within the next few years, and a snake bite that would ordinarily cost a limb will cause blood infection that will cost a life. |