[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Welding (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 12/6/2010 3:21:22 PM EDT
| This seems like a useful skill. How hard is it to learn? What equipment do I need? |
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gas welding or electric?
gas welding electric welding anyone can learn to weld just look at your local tech school for a night class |
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MIG was pretty easy. I have not tried TIG welding.
Welding in general does have its place in the survival/homesteaders skill set in my opinion. There is a book, I believe its called hi performance welding or something like that. Blue cover. Very handy. Great way to get an idea of gear and what you will need |
I am not a welder....but I do own one. Stick welding is fairly easy to get started-I can stick metal together pretty well, but it looks like shit. Saying that I have never had one break, but I never could pass the 'appearance' test for a welding cert. I picked BOTH of my 'sparkboxes' or 'tombstones' up for free from guys I knew that were giving them away. I have heard that a monkey can be taught to MIG weld ( I am probably proof )- doing it and being really, really good is a little bit of a time frame, but it takes practice and someone who knows how to say" it'll hold but its fugly, try doing it this way...". As said before check your votech and employment centers for night classes, of find a welder who may need a gopher for a bit. Good luck, Padiwan! 
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It depends on what level of skill you want to attain. As a previous poster noted a community college course would bring you up to a minimum useful level in a few months, and some people can be self taught but they are the exception rather than the rule.
If you have a shop at home to work in you have an advantage too! Having a friend nearby who's a skilled/ trained welder is a definite plus too. The thing is, is it costs a fair amount of money in equipment to find out if its your cup of tea or not and resale of this equipment is not likely to return your initial outlay. Also buy a good used machine, such as a small Lincoln stick welding machine to start with. I'd never buy a Harbor freight special either. MIG can be complicated with getting your wire speed just right with your amps, and replacing cups and feeder tubes. In short there's a lot of little parts to screw up. With stick you either have the right temp/ amps or you don't. The worst that happens is your stick literally sticks or its too hot and you burn through. You also need to learn about basic metallurgy, because you need to know what types of material can reasonably be joined by welding and what are the correct types of rods to use. Safety is a very big deal too, and you can't be afraid to get burned a little bit. aside from that a steady hand or two and good eyesight are a must as well! Its not for everyone, that's why its a skilled labor and it could be very useful in a SHTF situation if you have power or if you have Oxygen and Acetylene handy and know how to use them. P.S. As JoeRedman noted above a monkey could be taught to weld but he wouldn't know why he is doing it. An old friend of mine in the Navy used to say that a lot, named Zackery. |
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It's a useful skill. Like anything else, some people will be better at it than others. One of the guys I used to work with proudly told me one day " I can weld just as well overhead as I can flat on the bench". I told him he was right and I couldn't tell the difference by looking at them. 
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Thanks for the input. I don't know the difference between tig and mig welding. I just want to be able to make small repairs or do little projects around the house. I don't have any particular project in mind, it just seems like a handy skill to have.
I'm a fairly handy and have taught myself a lot skills over the years. I recently saw some of the small portable welders in the $250-500 range and thought maybe it was time to acquire another skill set. |
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If you're not going to do it for a living.....learn to mig....it is the simplest.
a good set up can be had cheaply in this economic time on eBay......under $500.00. take a class.....or find someone who will help you for a couple secessions....I can teach someone how to mig in a afternoon....but it takes time to master. go to a welding supply store....after you find what you want....make sure you have all the accessories you'll need. |
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Might as well get a set of torches too. They're real handy to have around the garage. I'd hate to be without mine. yup....don't waste time on the back pack set of bottles....the little torch is fine....the bottles WILL go empty in the middle of a project....  ....make you sad.
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If you think welding is something you will stick to and learn and use ......I would recommend this welder or a comparable model of whatever brand , while it may take more practice and a bit more instruction it will give the ability to weld thicker materials , weld equally well in all positions and just be all around more versatile for close to the same money as a 110v mig rig.
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i learned gas and arc welding in HS and CC classes. at the time they were not teaching MIG or TIG.
about two years ago i bought a Lincoln wirefeed MIG welder to use on some projects... i can't get used to the wire constantly feeding. TIG seems like it's more like gas welding in that you hold the electrode in one hand and feed the wire with the other. seems like that would be easier, but i usually hear people (like Echo2) say that MIG is easiest. ummm... i'm gonna have to disagree... at least for me. YMMV. i'm sure i just need lots more practice.
if your local CC has classes, you get to use all their equipment and have knowledgeable people show you how to do various things, rate your work, etc. the class fee may cover all the supplies and materials for the class, or some may have an extra fee for materials. it's a very good way to learn, unless you know someone locally with a welder that's willing to teach you. whatever kind of welding you learn, it's a useful skill to know. |
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I enjoy being able to fabricate stuff like bumpers, brackets ect. I learned on a 225 amp AC stick Miller, now I also have a Millermatic 210 Mig (wirefeed) and love it but go back to the stick for thicker plate like 3/16s.
Need to justify it  ? Buy a Miller Bobcat 250 gas drive and get a badass 10,000 watt generator and 5 different welding processes including MIG and TIG I had one on the farm in Texas for fence pipe. I paid 2800.00 for it in 2005 and sold it in 2007 for 2650.00 with about 85 hours on the meter
Anyone who is not afraid of splatter can learn with practice DO NOT go buy one of those little 110 wirefeeds at Home Depot |
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You need to figure out what you want to weld then decide which process to use. Rusty scrap metal? Working on cars? Gunsmithing? Titanium bicycle frames? No single welding method is ideal for everything.
Since this is the survival forum, knowing how to stick weld would probably be the most useful in a SHTF situation. You don't need special shielding gas or a complicated machine. It's possible to stick weld with a rod, some jumper cables, and a few car batteries. Stick also works well for welding together thick, rusty scrap metal. |
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I own a welding shop....tig welding is probably the most material versatile.....but still involves a great deal of hand eye coordination.
mig welding...and I mean no offense to any one....a well trained monkey could do. I have taken a completely green welder wannabe....and had him running passes well enough to hold 3/8" material together w/o question by the end of the day....within a week his ability on running stringers was good enough that I got him certified for fillet. I use primarily Hobart Excel-Arc 71 .045 flux core with a CO2 shield....ran on a Millermatic 251 with a 300 Tweco stinger. In my shop...I have.... two Miller CP-302...one with a 22-A feeder...and one with a S22-A feeder. three Millermatics....a 250...a 250XL....and a 251....the 250XL is dedicated to a Miller 30A Spool-o-Matic spoolgun one Miller Sycrowave 200 one Miller Dial-Arc 250 one Miller Bobcat 225 When doing any type of maintenance welding...just about everyone on the shop will turn to the 250 or 251.....just for ease of operation. The Sycrowave is a great machine....but is only used by the more experienced welders....once you get the hang of it....very controllable...but to develop the feel for it takes time. You can buy a used 250 for $500 to $1000.....they are great machines.....and will plug into your 220 dryer outlet. If you go with a 110 machine....spring for one with infinite heat adjustment....not the "5 click" type.....gasless flux wire....025 to .030.....gas is nice....but can get expensive(er). Good luck....you have stumbles on a topic that is as greatly contested here as Glock vs 1911.....take a couple classes....you'll figure it out for yourself. |
A Lincoln Tombstone AC/DC welder, hood, gloves, an angle grinder, a bunch of rods and a pile of scrap metal. Spend as much on grinder wheels as you do on rods. Don't be shy about grinding the work or the weld.
My welding lessons from Dad were these two statements I quote "Here's how you turn on the motor, heres how you adjust the voltage and the amps, don't forget to turn off the gasoline as the carb drips and will drain the tank" After burning up the work with too high a setting and getting too little penetration for the weld to stick on too low I learned the key to welding. "Welding's just like fucking. Boy, if you ain't penetrating you ain't getting the job done" That was the totality of my welding classes. I ain't the best welder but by damn it will hold. I may be slower than a pro and I still am a "Position Welder" that has to move the work when welding over head. I can weld well enough to trust my life or one of my grandkids lives on my welding. Practice, Grind, Practice, Grind, Practice, Grind, Practice, Grind, Practice, Grind, Practice, Grind, Practice, Grind, Practice, Grind. A good welder grinds the work as much as he welds. A common rookie mistake is to go easy on the grinding. Grinding is dirty hard work and seems tedious. It is however what separates the good from the bad. And for all the pro's with Tig and Mig and can work in a tux and not be filthy I am referring to the good old AC arc welder with rods. |
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Thanks for the input. I don't know the difference between tig and mig welding. I just want to be able to make small repairs or do little projects around the house. I don't have any particular project in mind, it just seems like a handy skill to have. I'm a fairly handy and have taught myself a lot skills over the years. I recently saw some of the small portable welders in the $250-500 range and thought maybe it was time to acquire another skill set. Do NOT waste your money on Harbor Freight Junk. 270USD buys a Lincoln Tombstone that will outlast you. I have Dad's that he bought USED in 1969. He just bought another one as his case rusted out from being in the weather for 40 years. I redid the housing and my son has it at his house. Your grandkids will teach their kids on this machine if you don't let it sit outside for 40 years. Unless someone builds a new case for it, then even if it sits outside it will still last two lifetimes. |
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gas welding or electric? gas welding electric welding anyone can learn to weld just look at your local tech school for a night class i think gas is the better skill when the power is out. |
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This seems like a useful skill. How hard is it to learn? What equipment do I need? Robby - what part of OK are you in? My work is in South-Central, close to Ardmore - if you are anywhere close you might check out - SOTC - Basic Welding - or look at a Vo-Tech close to you... |
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gas welding or electric? gas welding electric welding anyone can learn to weld just look at your local tech school for a night class i think gas is the better skill when the power is out. I keep enough generator on hand to run my MIG (L-Tech Prest-O-Weld 130) if I need to do emergency repairs. The L-Tech (no longer made) can be powered by 110V 30Amp OR 220V 15Amp. This allows for full (okay ...95%) power welding on 110V ...but you've got to have high capacity 110V to do it (a regular 15 or 20 amp breaker will trip if you try to push the welder -and it welds like crap if underpowered) Two EU200i's daisy chained will let me zap stuff -portably- with confidence. I would love a big enough genny to run my Synchrowave (model 200) and the plasma cutter (ESAB Powercut 650) But 50 amps of 220Volt power works out to be at least a 10KW unit ...I need to make that happen before too long. |
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I tried my hand at stick welding when I was younger - learned to run a flat bead and fillet, but that's about it.
I asked some welders at a power plant I was working at, and their advise was to learn on an oxy-acetylene rig. You can learn everything you need to know from that process - puddle control, penetration, filler feed. TIG is classified as a gas welding process, and for SHTF purposes, you can make a TIG welder from an old lawn mower and a car alternator. |
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I tried my hand at stick welding when I was younger - learned to run a flat bead and fillet, but that's about it. I asked some welders at a power plant I was working at, and their advise was to learn on an oxy-acetylene rig. You can learn everything you need to know from that process - puddle control, penetration, filler feed. TIG is classified as a gas welding process, and for SHTF purposes, you can make a TIG welder from an old lawn mower and a car alternator. where do you get the shielding gas? |
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I got my training in high school which was a bunch of years ago. I never really got to where I consider myself a great welder but I can run a bead and make welds that I don't have to worry if they are going to break which is enough for me. I started with a 220v lincoln tombstone I have owned for over 20 years and still works great. About 15 years ago, I added a 110v miller mig setup and have to say I now use it for 90% of my welding needs. A mig welder is super handy around the house and the 110v means you can use it anywhere. I can't tell you how many repair jobs I've used mine for over the years.
Perfect example is just this past sunday I had a metal tube frame rocking chair that broke. It was one of those cheapie garden ridge specials and wife assumed it was dumpster time. I took a look and one of the welds that attached the back to the seat snapped off. Now this rocker had really thin metal tubing. If I had tried to stick weld that thing, it would have been impossible to do without totally burning thru. However with the mig welder at lowest current, I was able to tack the tube joints together than then slowly build up metal around the joint to strengthen it. Job took me 30mins and rocker is good as new. I highly recommend mig welders for around the house and although there are alot of good brands out there, I sure like my little miller. Mine has given me 15 years of trouble free service. |
I seem to remember(ya'll will correct me if I am wrong) not to weld galvanized without proper respirator and ventilation. IIRC- that shit will kill you quick. Also, it may seem it doesn't matter now...wear your PPE (long sleeve shirt buttoned up all the way). I have a permanent red-neck v-tan in the front from FFA 20+ years ago from welding with a shirt unbuttoned the top two buttons. Doesn't go away even in winter, when the rest of the tan has faded. I welded up a large rebar fence/door for a friend to keep the crack-heads out with NO shirt on  about 3 years ago. BAD, BAD sunburn! Just trying to stress some of the safety stuff I wish I had known about/practiced.
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A timely question. I start a basic welding class at my local CC on 8 Jan, running though mid-May. I recently picked up a Lincoln AC-225 with a cart and extended cord and leads for $80 for thicker stuff and a 110v Lincoln Weld Pak for $150 for thin stuff so I can practice at home. Eventually I may step up to a 240v MIG.
My view is that welding would be a VERY useful skill if SHTF. I may never get enough practice to make pretty welds, but I will be able to stick metal together. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Get a oxy/acetylene set up first. With that you can heat stuck fasteners, cut metal, braze, and weld. It will also teach you the basics of puddle formation as well as to avoid going to fast and so forth. Once you have that down, I would go with a MIG welder. I like the smaller 110 MIG welders although a lot of people laugh at them. For the common every day welds, the 110 MIG will be big enough. Once you have those two down, buy a 220 stick welder.
Between the gas setup, the MIG, and the stick, you'll be able to weld just about anything that you might have to on the homestead. If you are gonna weld professionally, you'll want other/better equipment. However, you can weld 99% of anything that you would need to around the house/farm. I know a lot of farmers who only own a gas torch and a 220 stick welder. The MIG will enable you to do nicer looking welds on thinner things. |
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Thanks for the input. I don't know the difference between tig and mig welding. I just want to be able to make small repairs or do little projects around the house. I don't have any particular project in mind, it just seems like a handy skill to have. I'm a fairly handy and have taught myself a lot skills over the years. I recently saw some of the small portable welders in the $250-500 range and thought maybe it was time to acquire another skill set. Do NOT waste your money on Harbor Freight Junk. 270USD buys a Lincoln Tombstone that will outlast you. I have Dad's that he bought USED in 1969. He just bought another one as his case rusted out from being in the weather for 40 years. I redid the housing and my son has it at his house. Your grandkids will teach their kids on this machine if you don't let it sit outside for 40 years. Unless someone builds a new case for it, then even if it sits outside it will still last two lifetimes. We always called them "crackerboxes". They will last a good long time. If you get a used one, have an electrician check out all the connections. Some low voltage connections work loose and you will get inconsistent heat. Also try to get an older one with copper windings. The newer aluminum windings can give you trouble. Another good feature is to get one that has DC capability. There are some things that can only be welded by DC current. Unless you need the portability, stay away from engine powered equipment. It is just another engine to take care of. |
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I seem to remember(ya'll will correct me if I am wrong) not to weld galvanized without proper respirator and ventilation. IIRC- that shit will kill you quick. Also, it may seem it doesn't matter now...wear your PPE (long sleeve shirt buttoned up all the way). I have a permanent red-neck v-tan in the front from FFA 20+ years ago from welding with a shirt unbuttoned the top two buttons. Doesn't go away even in winter, when the rest of the tan has faded. I welded up a large rebar fence/door for a friend to keep the crack-heads out with NO shirt on about 3 years ago. BAD, BAD sunburn! Just trying to stress some of the safety stuff I wish I had known about/practiced.QFT Galvanizing can ruin your day. You probably won't die, but you will feel like it. You will cough up black sputum for a day. Always wear PPE. |
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I tried my hand at stick welding when I was younger - learned to run a flat bead and fillet, but that's about it. I asked some welders at a power plant I was working at, and their advise was to learn on an oxy-acetylene rig. You can learn everything you need to know from that process - puddle control, penetration, filler feed. TIG is classified as a gas welding process, and for SHTF purposes, you can make a TIG welder from an old lawn mower and a car alternator. where do you get the shielding gas? Wherever you can. I never said it made a good welder... Let's all keep in mind that, if SHTF, you won't be able to get gas, OR wire, OR filler, OR stick electrodes.... |
| I worked for a muffler shop for 2 years and picked it up pretty fast. Welding is fun, and its also rewarding when you can weld all types of metal different setups. Deff something i would recommend learning. At first i would burn through not moving fast enough, but you learn, and after the weld looks like a roll of nickles its that much better. take a night class for a year and just keep practicing. Go with a mig to start out and make sure its gas fed with argon / stargon. then move on to others. Once you can make nice welds with an aluminium welder your set. |
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I tried my hand at stick welding when I was younger - learned to run a flat bead and fillet, but that's about it. I asked some welders at a power plant I was working at, and their advise was to learn on an oxy-acetylene rig. You can learn everything you need to know from that process - puddle control, penetration, filler feed. TIG is classified as a gas welding process, and for SHTF purposes, you can make a TIG welder from an old lawn mower and a car alternator. where do you get the shielding gas? Wherever you can. I never said it made a good welder...Let's all keep in mind that, if SHTF, you won't be able to get gas, OR wire, OR filler, OR stick electrodes.... Tig welding without gas is like reloading without powder it’s not going to work……. You might make some bright blue light and get two pieces to stick but it’s not going to have any strength and would be a complete waste of time. If you’re trying to keep it a SHTF discussion than one needs to stock up on consumables and the simplest thing to do would be an arc welder and lots and lots of rod. Perfectly said “Any moron can learn to weld in a few hours, but it can take years to get good at it” Just because you can lay down a pile of rod on two pieces and they don’t fall apart on the bench does not mean you are a good welder or can even weld there is a lot more to it than "it did not break when my seacow wife stood on it so now I must be a good welder" |
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I tried my hand at stick welding when I was younger - learned to run a flat bead and fillet, but that's about it. I asked some welders at a power plant I was working at, and their advise was to learn on an oxy-acetylene rig. You can learn everything you need to know from that process - puddle control, penetration, filler feed. TIG is classified as a gas welding process, and for SHTF purposes, you can make a TIG welder from an old lawn mower and a car alternator. where do you get the shielding gas? Wherever you can. I never said it made a good welder... Let's all keep in mind that, if SHTF, you won't be able to get gas, OR wire, OR filler, OR stick electrodes.... Maybe we need to add that to our lists of preps? Welding Rods. Oxy and acetylene may be a little hard to stash back, but a crackerbox and sticks wouldnt...or small mig and a few dozen spools of wire. Gas is optional for the mig, but it will be worse looking than stick IMO. Damn I wish I new how to torch weld.. EDIT: sorry got in late on the same idea
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the BOL has 2 welders....2 torch outfits.....1 co2...1 argon....2 oxy.....1 acyt.....200lbs of various rods.....33lb gasless fluxcore.....33lbs fluxcore.....20lbs solid wire....and a couple tons of drop steel and stainless steel...varied sizes.
a drill press...a band saw.....a lathe/mill/drill combo.....4 x 8 x 1/2" metal table....and a full compliment of hand tools. The BOL is a functioning farm.....maintenance is a must. ETA....and If I can raid my shop before the bug out.....there will be more....
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| I have a small 110v Hobart mig and a couple of Oxy-Acetelene set up's, a big tank setup and a small tank setup that's more portable (actually picked it up from rusteerooster). I didn't need/want a big mig, so it does everything I need it to. I had a buddy come over and teach me to weld. I'm not the best welder in the world, but I can stick stuff together and make it hold. |
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Maybe we need to add that to our lists of preps? Welding Rods. Oxy and acetylene may be a little hard to stash back, but a crackerbox and sticks wouldnt...or small mig and a few dozen spools of wire. Gas is optional for the mig, but it will be worse looking than stick IMO. Damn I wish I new how to torch weld.. EDIT: sorry got in late on the same idea I have 2 300 cu ft cylinders of 75/25 besides my working stock of 125cu ft cylnders of 75/25 (2), 100% Ar, and 98/2, plus a 40 cuft of 75/25. But if I were starting over, a 50 lb tank of CO2 would last almost forever being held in the tank as a liquid. I also always have a full spare tank of C2H2 and O2 besides what ever in in the cart. |
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where do you get the shielding gas? ...Let's all keep in mind that, if SHTF, you won't be able to get gas, OR wire, OR filler, OR stick electrodes.... Which is exactly why we've got a GOOD blacksmith in our group. He has a lifetime supply of ultra-low-sulfer coal ...and plenty of help to pump the bellows!
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Quoted:...Maybe we need to add that to our lists of preps? ...or small mig and a few dozen spools of wire.
This is exactly the rout I went. A mid size dual voltage MIG welder with a case(6 spools) of .035 flux-core. With the genny I can grind, cut, drill, and weld anything I would need for emergency fabrication and repairs. Spare sets of lenses for your lid is a good idea too. If you've got just one it's sure to crack! |
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Grew up welding (my dad was a welder) so I'll try to weigh in on this.
IMHO, basic MIG welding is the easiest to learn, then ARC welding, then difficult MIG (aluminum, hard-surface, SS etc), then TIG. MIG welding is what I first learned, probably when I was about 10-13. Pretty easy because you don't have to worry about your slag puddle, and your metal puddle is more forgiving that way. It only gets challenging when you get into other alloys, reversing polarity etc. ARC isn't terrible to learn when you have proper instruction, but if you're just going to try winging it you're going to be very disappointed. One way to know if you're doing good ARC welding is to look at your slag when you're done. When it cools down it should literally peel right up off the weld bead. Dad taught me that on my first lesson by showing me how it's done. When he was done he had a perfect 4" piece of slag that he just picked up and showed me. No chipping hammer needed for that one. TIG is one that even I am not completely up to speed on. Dad didn't have a TIG welder at home and we never really got any training on it. I used a TIG for the first time in college, and only a couple times. It is the most difficult of the 3 because you have 3 different controls you have to maintain while actually welding. You have the electrode in one hand, your filler rod in the other, and the power pedal under your foot. The power pedal varies the power (current). That variable power makes it very difficult to get the hang of, especially when you're welding AL. AL conducts heat so well that you'll be slowly increasing power to get your puddle started, and then all of the sudden half your piece of metal will just melt and turn into a puddle. That's bad... Once you get the power pedal thing down, then you have to maintain control of that while you're controlling your electrode and your filler rod. It's sort of like the old "pat your head and rub your tummy" thing, your hands/feet are going to get confused and tangled up and well... I think you get the idea. But once you get TIG down, it is a truly remarkable quality of weld. When I was 16 I decided to do FFA welding. I had never done ARC welding before (didn't need to because we had the MIG welder at home). Because of my inexperience all the other FFA welders insisted that I need to be in the "junior" class, which doesn't actually count for points. The funny thing was, in 1 weeks time with instruction from my dad, I was able to beat every single welder from my school, I placed 20th in the competition and the only one that came close to me placed 41st. These were guys that had been in the welding competition for years, and I beat them all with 1 week of training from the "proper person". Too bad they couldn't be convinced of that before the competition because I could have done our team pretty well. |
