Posted: 9/15/2011 6:36:52 AM EDT
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Curfew? Seriously? CAP enforcing curfews? What color are your uniforms? Brown shirts?
Fuck that noise, I'm a free man. In affected areas, I understand the need in order to prevent looting, but I won't stand for a restriction of my liberties by JBTs who want to keep the town locked down after dark to make their jobs easier. I also live along the Susquehanna and I can guaran-fucking-tee you heads would have rolled if they tried to enforce a civil order like that in an area of town that isn't currently flooded out or in a dire emergency. I'll don my flame suit, but I don't give a fuck. We still live in a free society........ for now. Fuckity fuck fuck fuck this pisses me off. No offense to OP, maybe I'm missing something. It just disturbs me that we are a group of people who love our rights and freedoms but when it comes to restricting personal liberties it's "Sure, no problem." |
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Curfew? Seriously? CAP enforcing curfews? What color are your uniforms? Brown shirts? Fuck that noise, I'm a free man. In affected areas, I understand the need in order to prevent looting, but I won't stand for a restriction of my liberties by JBTs who want to keep the town locked down after dark to make their jobs easier. I also live along the Susquehanna and I can guaran-fucking-tee you heads would have rolled if they tried to enforce a civil order like that in an area of town that isn't currently flooded out or in a dire emergency. I'll don my flame suit, but I don't give a fuck. We still live in a free society........ for now. Fuckity fuck fuck fuck this pisses me off. No offense to OP, maybe I'm missing something. It just disturbs me that we are a group of people who love our rights and freedoms but when it comes to restricting personal liberties it's "Sure, no problem." 
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Curfew? Seriously? CAP enforcing curfews? What color are your uniforms? Brown shirts? Fuck that noise, I'm a free man. In affected areas, I understand the need in order to prevent looting, but I won't stand for a restriction of my liberties by JBTs who want to keep the town locked down after dark to make their jobs easier. I also live along the Susquehanna and I can guaran-fucking-tee you heads would have rolled if they tried to enforce a civil order like that in an area of town that isn't currently flooded out or in a dire emergency. I'll don my flame suit, but I don't give a fuck. We still live in a free society........ for now. Fuckity fuck fuck fuck this pisses me off. No offense to OP, maybe I'm missing something. It just disturbs me that we are a group of people who love our rights and freedoms but when it comes to restricting personal liberties it's "Sure, no problem." Given the extent of the damaged area, I am not surprised by a curfew order. Feel free to contest it if you choose to do so. I don't think you'd be successful. |
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Curfew? Seriously? CAP enforcing curfews? What color are your uniforms? Brown shirts? Fuck that noise, I'm a free man. In affected areas, I understand the need in order to prevent looting, but I won't stand for a restriction of my liberties by JBTs who want to keep the town locked down after dark to make their jobs easier. I also live along the Susquehanna and I can guaran-fucking-tee you heads would have rolled if they tried to enforce a civil order like that in an area of town that isn't currently flooded out or in a dire emergency. I'll don my flame suit, but I don't give a fuck. We still live in a free society........ for now. Fuckity fuck fuck fuck this pisses me off. No offense to OP, maybe I'm missing something. It just disturbs me that we are a group of people who love our rights and freedoms but when it comes to restricting personal liberties it's "Sure, no problem." Given the extent of the damaged area, I am not surprised by a curfew order. Feel free to contest it if you choose to do so. I don't think you'd be successful. I never thought my viewpoint would be popular, and I mean no offense to the OP. My contention is a curfew in the areas of town that are not damaged or under threat of flooding. We had flooding and evacuations here. No curfew needed. They closed the streets off and had cops out. |
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I never thought my viewpoint would be popular, and I mean no offense to the OP. My contention is a curfew in the areas of town that are not damaged or under threat of flooding. We had flooding and evacuations here. No curfew needed. They closed the streets off and had cops out. The problem is that the on-duty officers are busy enough trying to cope with the crisis; they don't need to be dealing with a bunch of stuff going on in the parts of town that were lucky enough to not be flooded. |
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I didnt know CAP had ground teams. Might have to look out for a local group.... OPs would you mind explaining a little more on CAP ground units and what one might expect the experience be joining and working with one of these units. different squadrons have a different emphasis, look for one local to you that does ground team stiff. CAP ground teams are the counterpart tot he air side SAR teams. You don't own it until there are boots on the ground. CAP has a fairly extensive training program for ground teams, starting at the squadron level going up to Regional level. We use all of the outdoor skills such as route finding, land nav, ground search techniques, and general outdoor skills. Fieldcraft skills are usually learned the hard way and someone who is good at it would be an asset to any ground search team. We also have a disaster relief mission as well, there were CAP volunteers from all over in NOLA after Katrina, for example. The narrative above is typical for a disaster relief mission and the tasks we are asked to accomplish. The website is www.gocivilairpatrol.com and should help you locate a squadron nearby. Let me know if I can be of more help. Ops Thanks for that info, I to had no idea that CAP had ground teams. I also did not know they were as involved with SAR and disaster relief as they are... I found out that's one of their big things via the website. I just sent an email to my local CAP for information on joining. Thanks for the info Ops 
And thanks for your volunteer service. 
Also a thanks for pointing me in the direction of a good volunteer service! |
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I never thought my viewpoint would be popular, and I mean no offense to the OP. My contention is a curfew in the areas of town that are not damaged or under threat of flooding. We had flooding and evacuations here. No curfew needed. They closed the streets off and had cops out. The problem is that the on-duty officers are busy enough trying to cope with the crisis; they don't need to be dealing with a bunch of stuff going on in the parts of town that were lucky enough to not be flooded. +1 on that, (I work comm for a PD) |
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I never thought my viewpoint would be popular, and I mean no offense to the OP. My contention is a curfew in the areas of town that are not damaged or under threat of flooding. We had flooding and evacuations here. No curfew needed. They closed the streets off and had cops out. The problem is that the on-duty officers are busy enough trying to cope with the crisis; they don't need to be dealing with a bunch of stuff going on in the parts of town that were lucky enough to not be flooded. +1 on that, (I work comm for a PD) I worked as a dispatcher at a local PD years ago, too. That has no bearing on the fact that the town is filled with free people who don't need to be supervised to go about their lives. A town that size has 2 or 3, maybe 4 cops on duty at a time. If a liquor store gets robbe on one side of town and all the officers respond, does that mean they lock down the no offending side of town? It's asinine. You put up a road barrier and keep people away from the flooded area and go about your business. |
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I worked as a dispatcher at a local PD years ago, too. That has no bearing on the fact that the town is filled with free people who don't need to be supervised to go about their lives. A town that size has 2 or 3, maybe 4 cops on duty at a time. If a liquor store gets robbed on one side of town and all the officers respond, does that mean they lock down the no offending side of town? It's asinine. You put up a road barrier and keep people away from the flooded area and go about your business. You wouldn't see the entire on-duty force responding to that call. If its immediately in progress, every available officer might respond, but within minutes of determining that the scene is secure and no crime is ion progress the senior officer on-scene is going to wave off any unneeded responding officers who should then resume their normal patrol functions. Its not about dealing only with the flooded areas, as I said. Sorry to break it to you, but if we can minimize the law enforcement calls / problems in the non-flooded parts by having a city-wide curfew, then thats whats going to happen. |
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I worked as a dispatcher at a local PD years ago, too. That has no bearing on the fact that the town is filled with free people who don't need to be supervised to go about their lives. A town that size has 2 or 3, maybe 4 cops on duty at a time. If a liquor store gets robbed on one side of town and all the officers respond, does that mean they lock down the no offending side of town? It's asinine. You put up a road barrier and keep people away from the flooded area and go about your business. You wouldn't see the entire on-duty force responding to that call. If its immediately in progress, every available officer might respond, but within minutes of determining that the scene is secure and no crime is ion progress the senior officer on-scene is going to wave off any unneeded responding officers who should then resume their normal patrol functions. Its not about dealing only with the flooded areas, as I said. Sorry to break it to you, but if we can minimize the law enforcement calls / problems in the non-flooded parts by having a city-wide curfew, then thats whats going to happen. And that, to me, is unacceptable. Edit for punctuation. |
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We had communications problems at first due to communications failures. We'd been using simple FRS radios during training, and attempted to use them. The town is an old one, with lots of overhead power lines that evidently emitted enough of an EMF to effectively muffle the FRS band. Our squadron commander is a Ham operator and was able to supply four walkie talkies and a base station using the MURS band that worked well enough to overcome interference. In the meantime, we used cell pones as the grid and the cell network will still operational. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_22/646491_the_CAN_T_FAIL_thread_for_getting_a_ham_radio_license_and_learning_basic_VHF_UHF_operations.html ar-jedi |
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A lot of what goes on in SF falls under "individual survival science".
Governments, such as federal, state and even township level study and plan for "social survival". They call it emergency management. They don't plan on stepping back, especially in light of current doctrine where they exist to help "us"(sheelpe). They plan on doing something, whatever they think might be necessary to minimize the impact. This includes closing roads, enacting curfews, confiscating equipment, labor, etc... all the tin foil hat fodder. Those of us who study individual survival may want to spend some time to think about what societal remnants will do during local or larger events. Such as Canadian cops patrolling NYC after 9/11. NYPD patrolling New Orleans. Out of state cops confiscating guns in LA. Police searching every white van on the road, etc. Those are much worse than a local mayor enacting a night-time curfew in devastated areas. It is important to understand that mobility is an issue during disasters, especially partial ones, where "the rule of law" still clamors for control. One way to combat the mobility issue or the corralling/forced evac of the sheeple issue is to become part of your area's recognized volunteer responders. CAP, CERT, search and rescue, volunteer FD, PD, Church disaster teams, etc. Being plugged in to that mechanism will get you around most road blocks, and being hassled by the cops. You will also gain valuable awareness of what is going on, and experience in incident management. In the book One Second After, the main character had an old 1960s car from his mom. He was a local professor. The local township that he was plugged into decided to confiscate all running vehicles for the common defense. He was able to put his foot down and said they weren't taking his car, and they didn't, because they knew him and they valued him. Being known and valued is a status built before shtf. It is a currency potentially far more valuable than beans, bullets or band-aids. I urge everyone here to somehow plug into the local response community. Even if you answer phones at the local volly FD once a month. You can do all of that without breaking opsec. Be part of the response, not the sheeple. The local govt will likely overreact even if they never intended to strap on the jackboots in advance. It happens when they're stressed, and feel they have so much to do with so few resources. It's important to understand that, and account for it in your prepping. -M |
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Be part of the response, not the sheeple. I understand and agree with what you wrote. However, folks dont fall into only those two categories. There are sheeple and like-minders among both Volunteer/PD community and non - volunteer/PD community. Telling me it is illegal for me to move about my home town - a) for my own safety or b) because I might be up to something - is a hard sell. |
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I should have been more clear. I'm not trying to excuse the behavior of heavy-handed city executives during emergencies. They don't study disaster management with an eye on protecting civil liberties. Consider that a police department in Louisiana shot at a group of New Orleans refugees (and killed one) who were trying to cross a bridge to safety in their town. It took a federal investigation to bring them to justice.
I was trying to point out the benefit of being part of the rescuers instead of the rescuees in the eyes of the govt, not that you are either one or the other in reality. The govt does have a us vs them attitude, especially police who deal with numbnuts day in day out, paramedics, who transport the same medicare taxicab customers day in day out, etc. If you're seen as being 'part of the team', even a little bit, you'll have an easier time than knocking heads over what is legal or not. Especially when stress is high. When I heard that out of state cops were seizing guns in New Orleans it upset me very much, but we should all plan for such things. The govt (police, fire, etc) are not precision tools. You seldom get a constitutionally sensitive city executive, police chief, AND patrolman in your area. You should MUST plan for unnecessary, capricious and burdensome rules to be put in place during disasters and their aftermath. One additional thought that springs to mind is that you are less likely to get a jackboot up your ass if the officer knows that you are known and hopefully well regarded in the community. We know that its not fair, and not right, but its reality. All I'm saying is local politics should be part of your individual survival planning. -M |
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As a part of a non-law enforcement county unit that was called out to assist after a tornado hit, I can understand the "who are you" questions. One can ask people to not enter a restricted zone without acting like a JBT. As posted, the police cannot use all their offshift units to cover the disaster because someone has to work the next day.
At one time, CAP has a number of VHF radio channels located above and below the 144-148 mhz 2 meter ham band for ground and air use. IIRC, the local CAP (Boxcar) units could use modded ham gear on them. The change over to narrowband/digital/secure radios may have eliminated this as an inexpensive choice. I have not monitored 148.150 mhz in a while as it used to come alive anytime a downed aircraft was reported. RS |
| In our county we have shared channels that any agency..fire, EMS, LEO, etc can hop onto to talk to anyone else. In a flood-type situation I would have to believe that a CAP-type entity there to assist would be provided with portable radios with these frequencies on them. |
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Will I get a gun to use if I join?
It would be so awesome. OK BOYS, LET'S LOCK THIS BITCH DOWN! GET BACK IN YOUR HOUSE CITIZEN, THE CAP IS HERE! I've got a first aid kit, so I could bring that, and some camo. ETA: I have a pretty strong COMMAND VOICE. ETA: Sorry, thought this was GD. Honestly though, do you think it is OK to "enforce" anything as a Civil Air Patrol person and if so under what authority? |
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Ops,
Too much of the miindset of: "I only care about my family." Justification- The current entitlement mentality. "The cops/gov hate citizens." Justification- Bad cops you hear about on the news, good ones you don't. Current administration treating working class like a bunch of ATM machines, so why should after a disaster be any different. "Local LEO/FD department do not want our help." Solution- Start volunteering now. I agree with what Ops and the CAP did (they relieved the full time guys to do other things) and had radios to get them in case they needed them. We are what will bring civilization back. |
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I worked as a dispatcher at a local PD years ago, too. That has no bearing on the fact that the town is filled with free people who don't need to be supervised to go about their lives. A town that size has 2 or 3, maybe 4 cops on duty at a time. If a liquor store gets robbed on one side of town and all the officers respond, does that mean they lock down the no offending side of town? It's asinine. You put up a road barrier and keep people away from the flooded area and go about your business. You wouldn't see the entire on-duty force responding to that call. If its immediately in progress, every available officer might respond, but within minutes of determining that the scene is secure and no crime is ion progress the senior officer on-scene is going to wave off any unneeded responding officers who should then resume their normal patrol functions. Its not about dealing only with the flooded areas, as I said. Sorry to break it to you, but if we can minimize the law enforcement calls / problems in the non-flooded parts by having a city-wide curfew, then thats whats going to happen. And that, to me, is unacceptable. Edit for punctuation. Glad to see that I'm not the only one that sees this as an issue. |
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We were called out 8 SEPT 11 to augment security, man checkpoints, enforce curfew, mount patrols and generally support the Borough during a declared emergency due to flooding. Most of our efforts were directed at enforcing curfew. Ops Now you say ask politely, in OP you said enforce, which was it? |
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We were called out 8 SEPT 11 to augment security, man checkpoints, enforce curfew, mount patrols and generally support the Borough during a declared emergency due to flooding. Most of our efforts were directed at enforcing curfew. Ops Now you say ask politely, in OP you said enforce, which was it? Their goal is to be nice... until it's time to NOT be nice. |
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Why are people having difficulty with this?
CAP is not Blackwater. They don't roll around in humvees with M4s violating your right to McNuggets. Even if he said "enforce", there is only one way that CAP can enforce anything, and that is by asking nicely. They train for search and rescue missions, not search and destroy missions. In a disaster "with rule of law" still around, they won't be issued firearms they aren't officially trained on. In a disaster "without" rule of law, CAP won't exist, or at least won't be operating without some semblance of local civil authorization. (mayor, judge, dog catcher) They were asked to be additional eyes and ears in a town that was damaged by the flooding. Spotting and asking curfew violators to leave is the first step of enforcement, even if not sanctioned with ticket writing ability or arrest powers. This AAR is valuable information on how things work during localized disasters. If you knew anything besides what you heard from Alex Jones, you'd not see anything wrong here. CAP, among many others, is a "Trained Professional Volunteer Organization" they spend time getting uniforms, training, background checks, and organized, just so at some point they can be called up to augment the fulltime professionals. Having been part of 3 similar groups myself, I know there is no justification for the accusations above. |
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A good buddy of mine was in CAP when we were in High School. He loved it, and wore his CAP M-65 jacket for about 10 years after  I honestly don't see any issue w/ any group providing disaster relief; Op's post may have made it sound more militaristic than it was, but he honestly likes to help people...cut him some slack  Your post reminded me to check on getting an industrial/business license so I can use that MURS band at a decent wattage and make all my friends "employees" Speed |
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OP, I know what town you're talking about. It's Marietta. I'm extremly familiar with the quaint little town. I'm an AGR (active guard reserve) solider in the National Guard . Our M-day soldiers were called up for the flooding as well. Our mission was to rescue people stranded and to give them food and water. We've been called up during many state emergencies. Never did we enforce a curfew or cordon off a town. It couldnt have been for safety if you were out at 441 and not down by front St.
It bothers me that they had you and your CAP Squadron cordoning off a town and block access to a free people. Should have just blocked off the flooded area. No reason to restrict people that werent effected by the flooding. I'm not putting blame on you in any way. I understand you had a job to do and you did it. Its just disturbing that they had you do it, the way you did it. If the regional police and fire/ fire police couldnt take care of it and the national guard saw no interest in it. I don't understand the point. |
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I was offered a transfer by my employer to Dauphin county and I happened to move just before Irene hit. I'm pretty sure thats the real reason Irene and Lee hit the US. Every time I move the Heavens seem to open and pour. Anyways, we didnt get much at all from Irene but Lee dumped the largest amount of rain in a single storm I've seen in my life. I'm a CA transplant I'm use to the whole world catching fire right around now, I'm not really sure what to make of all this water stuff. I've only seen one flood in my life and I was like 8 or 9 when that happened. Basically, I was stuck in my town for two days because of road closures while the flood water crested. No big deal, but a first for me. I had to drive Dauphin to Montgomery county and back twice during the storms for work before the flood crested shutting things down completely. I normally like driving in adverse weather conditions, but this drive was pretty tedious towards the end. It was just too long of a drive with too many stupid drivers driving way too fast for conditions, and too many detours. Give me a 4' snow fall any day over that. Reading was a cluster during the storm. Flooded debris filled roads and accidents were everywhere. The two hour drive turned into three and a half hours one way with all of the detours. Lee put a little water in the basement of my new place, but it was not as bad as I though it would get. I basically spent the time unpacking from my move, watching a nearby small creek swell in size, and listening to 145.110 - out of the Harrisburg area when I wasnt working. They had a pretty good net running with information on evacuations, shelter information, road closures and other information. I'm still going over new equipment that would have come in handy for myself based off information picked up over the course of the storm and rehashing my lessons from the flood. I appreciate people who have contributed their experiences to this thread. |
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ages of the members of your group ?
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OP, I know what town you're talking about. It's Marietta. I'm extremly familiar with the quaint little town. I'm an AGR (active guard reserve) solider in the National Guard . Our M-day soldiers were called up for the flooding as well. Our mission was to rescue people stranded and to give them food and water. We've been called up during many state emergencies. Never did we enforce a curfew or cordon off a town. It couldnt have been for safety if you were out at 441 and not down by front St. It bothers me that they had you and your CAP Squadron cordoning off a town and block access to a free people. Should have just blocked off the flooded area. No reason to restrict people that werent effected by the flooding. I'm not putting blame on you in any way. I understand you had a job to do and you did it. Its just disturbing that they had you do it, the way you did it. If the regional police and fire/ fire police couldnt take care of it and the national guard saw no interest in it. I don't understand the point. Actually, it was Duncannon, not Marietta. The primary reason we were called in was to help prevent looting. Folks at the lower end of town had removed their possessions from their basements and had stacked stuff all over their yards and porches prior to being evacuated. It looked like a yard sale from Mad Max. In prior floods, the general public was not kept out of town and they got looted badly. In the 1996 flood, the NG unit called in to "secure" the town were the worst offenders. they learned the hard way that civil liberties or no, the only way that the borough officials thought that they could control looting was by declaring a state of emergency and setting up a curfew. Keep in mind that all of the north/south routes thru town were blocked by floodwaters and there were only two roads open for ingress and egress. We had no powers of arrest, and no authority to detain anyone. My people, under orders from me, could only ask folks to abide by the curfew, go home, and if they did not live in the borough, we VERY politely asked folks to leave. We literally had 6 incidents where folks did not comply. They saw the light after the state constables deployed with us explained that there was a $1000 fine for violating curfew. For those of you concerned with civil liberties, what would you have done? As stated we concentrated our resources on the flooded and evacuated areas. There were scattered incidents of looting prior to our deployment, and none after. The dozens of folks we contacted for various reasons were very appreciative of our efforts to help secure the area and were quite vocal about it. We had folks bringing us coffee and food all night long. I do not mind constructive criticism. However, make sure that you know the sitrep before you start up... Ops |
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A lot of what goes on in SF falls under "individual survival science". Governments, such as federal, state and even township level study and plan for "social survival". They call it emergency management. They don't plan on stepping back, especially in light of current doctrine where they exist to help "us"(sheelpe). They plan on doing something, whatever they think might be necessary to minimize the impact. This includes closing roads, enacting curfews, confiscating equipment, labor, etc... all the tin foil hat fodder. Those of us who study individual survival may want to spend some time to think about what societal remnants will do during local or larger events. Such as Canadian cops patrolling NYC after 9/11. NYPD patrolling New Orleans. Out of state cops confiscating guns in LA. Police searching every white van on the road, etc. Those are much worse than a local mayor enacting a night-time curfew in devastated areas. It is important to understand that mobility is an issue during disasters, especially partial ones, where "the rule of law" still clamors for control. One way to combat the mobility issue or the corralling/forced evac of the sheeple issue is to become part of your area's recognized volunteer responders. CAP, CERT, search and rescue, volunteer FD, PD, Church disaster teams, etc. Being plugged in to that mechanism will get you around most road blocks, and being hassled by the cops. You will also gain valuable awareness of what is going on, and experience in incident management. In the book One Second After, the main character had an old 1960s car from his mom. He was a local professor. The local township that he was plugged into decided to confiscate all running vehicles for the common defense. He was able to put his foot down and said they weren't taking his car, and they didn't, because they knew him and they valued him. Being known and valued is a status built before shtf. It is a currency potentially far more valuable than beans, bullets or band-aids. I urge everyone here to somehow plug into the local response community. Even if you answer phones at the local volly FD once a month. You can do all of that without breaking opsec. Be part of the response, not the sheeple. The local govt will likely overreact even if they never intended to strap on the jackboots in advance. It happens when they're stressed, and feel they have so much to do with so few resources. It's important to understand that, and account for it in your prepping. -M Thanks for the post Ops, I might try to get involved here locally. Very well said M. We need good people responding to emergencies, not those that will take advantage of the situation or that will abuse their power. "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." Edmund Burke |