Posted: 12/22/2014 8:18:40 PM EDT
| Is it better to to mount one on the gun or optic |
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Don't use them. My 'inner ears' are the only 'anti-cant' device I need.
With all of the crap some of you guys have hanging off of your scopes, to look at, it no small wonder that you have any time to actually pull the trigger. Long Trang never needed an anti-cant device and he did pretty well for himself. Chris |
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But did they pay for those Spuhr mounts, with their own money?
Similar to Sierra's claims over the years that '45 of the top 50 Camp Perry shooters' were shooting MatchKings. When you're giving away cases upon cases of bullets every year, to shooters for free, it's probably pretty easy to make a claim like that. Not saying that either product is not top shelf, but often times people are being compensated for using a product, not so much because it would be their first choice if they had to buy the products, themselves. Chris |
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Chris, when I look at the analysis on the PRS field of top shooters, I'm looking at what they are using to win, not what they paid for it. Did they buy it or where they given the Spuhrs? I don't know. Between Spuhr and Badger they're holding down 25% of the optics fielded by the top 50 shooters, with Seekins bringing in a distant 3rd.
What does it matter whether they are given it or paying for it? They are winning with it and that is what is important to me when I'm looking at gear. |
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Chris, when I look at the analysis on the PRS field of top shooters, I'm looking at what they are using to win, not what they paid for it. Did they buy it or where they given the Spuhrs? I don't know. Between Spuhr and Badger they're holding down 25% of the optics fielded by the top 50 shooters, with Seekins bringing in a distant 3rd. What does it matter whether they are given it or paying for it? They are winning with it and that is what is important to me when I'm looking at gear. Are they winning because of the gear or are they winning because they are the best? Could they win with different gear? Do you think if the best guys didn't have the Spuhrs that they would no longer be in the top 50? Do you think that if the best guy in the world was using a 308 and you were using a 260 and he still beat you then that means the 308 is a superior long range caliber? |
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Don't use them. My 'inner ears' are the only 'anti-cant' device I need. With all of the crap some of you guys have hanging off of your scopes, to look at, it no small wonder that you have any time to actually pull the trigger. Long Trang never needed an anti-cant device and he did pretty well for himself. Chris Litz: "In general, for environments where there are no straight edges to reference(like mountains and desert terrain) the average human is only able to resolve within +/-3 degrees with the unaided eye" +/-3 degrees of scope cant on a 175smk @2600fps == +/-24.7" horizontal error @1k yds +/-3 degrees of scope cant on a 105 Hyb @3000fps == +/-16.2" horizontal error @1k yds Cant error at long range will really fuck with your wind reads, why not eliminate as many errors/variables as you can? To better illustrate, the difference between 12 O'clock and 12:01 on a 12 hour clock face is 6 degrees. |
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Some people have a very good sense of level, straight and plumb. Some don't. I do but when I'm shooting archery I definitely like to have a level on my bow sight. It surprises me how often I'm off, especially when shooting in off-terrain.
Bottom line is, if you feel you need a level, use one. No one, and I mean NO ONE has the ability to tell you otherwise. On the scope, or on the rifle, as long as it;s level with the reticle, it doesn't matter. |
| How long is a battleship, true or false? Sorry, lost my head for a minute. I have several on long range rifles and they are all mounted on the scope. Experiment and buy one that suits your shooting style. I like one that doesn't require me to move my head to see it. There are expensive ones and cheap ones but ones made by Vortex, Mounting Solutions, and Holland all work well. I you are going to use one make sure you setup your rifle and scope very precisely when leveling everything. Level the rifle, then the scope reticle, then add and level the anti-cant device. I do not believe most people need one unless you are shooting very long distances, say 400 yds and beyond but that's just me. |
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I do not believe most people need one unless you are shooting very long distances, say 400 yds and beyond but that's just me. Unless they are doing load development or trying to shoot small groups or targets. 2600fps smk with 3 degree cant horizontal error-------------------+ AND - 3 degrees 200yds +/- 0.600"-------------- 1.200" total possible 300yds +/- 1.400"-------------- 2.800" total possible 400yds +/-2.600"--------------- 5.200" total possible 500yds +/-4.400"--------------- 8.800" total possible |
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Unless they are doing load development or trying to shoot small groups or targets. 2600fps smk with 3 degree cant horizontal error-------------------+ AND - 3 degrees 200yds +/- 0.600"-------------- 1.200" total possible 300yds +/- 1.400"-------------- 2.800" total possible 400yds +/-2.600"--------------- 5.200" total possible 500yds +/-4.400"--------------- 8.800" total possible Quoted:
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I do not believe most people need one unless you are shooting very long distances, say 400 yds and beyond but that's just me. Unless they are doing load development or trying to shoot small groups or targets. 2600fps smk with 3 degree cant horizontal error-------------------+ AND - 3 degrees 200yds +/- 0.600"-------------- 1.200" total possible 300yds +/- 1.400"-------------- 2.800" total possible 400yds +/-2.600"--------------- 5.200" total possible 500yds +/-4.400"--------------- 8.800" total possible Sure if you can't tell that you have a 3 degree cant without a bubble then you definitely should have one on your gun. I shoot in a lot of positions other than prone and have not had a problem with leveling my reticle without a bubble. In fact the majority of my long range shooting is in other positions other than prone because of the terrain of obstacles I'm dealing with don't allow the prone position to be used. I don't use a lot of modern equipment actually the kestrel I have is the cheapest model with wind and temp only. I don't carry a ballistic calculator with me or have a phone with any of that capability. I also have developed an uncanny ability to make wind calls from shooting in 15+ mph winds on a regular basis and even shot in days with 30 mph winds and still made first round hits. I've only been shooting long range precision for exactly one year now, but I believe people in this "game" rely to much on technology. Also in that year I've shot in every condition possible from zero degrees to 100 degrees. I've shot from different angles to target and everything from 5 mph wind to 30 mph wind and I'm out every week and sometimes 3 times a week. I'm driven to be good at this and if I thought the bubble was necessary to be successful I would have it. Maybe for some people it is and if so go for it. ETA: I'm not against the use of technology just don't use it as a crutch. I did have a bubble on my gun for a short period of time. I would build up my position with the reticle level and get my natural point of aim without looking at the bubble. Then I would look at the bubble and it was always right so I got rid of it. Same with the kestrel I make my wind calls without it and then test it with the kestrel. I've done the same with range estimation. I range the target with the reticle and then verify it with a laser range finder. I have had success ranging unknown distance targets with the reticle at distances that my range finder wouldn't range though. In those cases I did know the exact height and width of the target which was key. Use technology if you like, but don't rely 100% upon it learn to do without it as well. |
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I don't use a level either, and I don't think I'm being held back for it. I am curious what the much-talked-about 3° of cant would actually look like in a tiny bubble level. Take your standard torpedo level for carpenter work or whatever. From one extreme to the other(not center lines) is about 2.5 degrees. Again, 6 degrees on a clock face is the angle between 12:00 to 12:01. I will check actual numbers on my rifle tonight. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
Here is where I set mine up for firing(tested to 19mil on tall target), the bubble just touching the line for repeatability. I can see this through my left eye while sighting through the scope with my right eye.
Here it shows being canted 1/2 degree( 0.5° ), by about 1 degree cant in either direction the bubble runs to the edge. 
And by the way, I tested the level on my phone on a 1-2-3 block, zeroed it and then shimmed one end up, did the math, math came out to be 0.318 degrees, the level on the phone read 0.3 degrees and repeated. People spend a jillion dollars on a rifle, 2 jillion on a scope but don't want to spend $40 on a level? Why not remove the real easy to remove points of inconsistency? |
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Are they winning because of the gear or are they winning because they are the best? Could they win with different gear? Do you think if the best guys didn't have the Spuhrs that they would no longer be in the top 50? Do you think that if the best guy in the world was using a 308 and you were using a 260 and he still beat you then that means the 308 is a superior long range caliber? Quoted:
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Chris, when I look at the analysis on the PRS field of top shooters, I'm looking at what they are using to win, not what they paid for it. Did they buy it or where they given the Spuhrs? I don't know. Between Spuhr and Badger they're holding down 25% of the optics fielded by the top 50 shooters, with Seekins bringing in a distant 3rd. What does it matter whether they are given it or paying for it? They are winning with it and that is what is important to me when I'm looking at gear. Are they winning because of the gear or are they winning because they are the best? Could they win with different gear? Do you think if the best guys didn't have the Spuhrs that they would no longer be in the top 50? Do you think that if the best guy in the world was using a 308 and you were using a 260 and he still beat you then that means the 308 is a superior long range caliber? I am going with the top shooters have tuned there setup most likely have tried many different combos and compete with what works the best for them. But I am in no way and expert on the subject. |
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I am going with the top shooters have tuned there setup most likely have tried many different combos and compete with what works the best for them. But I am in no way and expert on the subject. Quoted:
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Chris, when I look at the analysis on the PRS field of top shooters, I'm looking at what they are using to win, not what they paid for it. Did they buy it or where they given the Spuhrs? I don't know. Between Spuhr and Badger they're holding down 25% of the optics fielded by the top 50 shooters, with Seekins bringing in a distant 3rd. What does it matter whether they are given it or paying for it? They are winning with it and that is what is important to me when I'm looking at gear. Are they winning because of the gear or are they winning because they are the best? Could they win with different gear? Do you think if the best guys didn't have the Spuhrs that they would no longer be in the top 50? Do you think that if the best guy in the world was using a 308 and you were using a 260 and he still beat you then that means the 308 is a superior long range caliber? I am going with the top shooters have tuned there setup most likely have tried many different combos and compete with what works the best for them. But I am in no way and expert on the subject. Think about it a little more rationally. Just because top competitors use something doesn't mean it is the best for your uses. It is a fucking level. A $40 one work just a good as one stuffed into a $400 mount. Just because Formula One racers have carbon fiber brake discs on their cars doesn't mean they are the best choice for my Dodge Dakota. |
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