Posted: 12/28/2014 6:05:03 PM EDT
| Here is the question for everyone. Lots of people shoot precision rifle, however not all of them reload. Suppose there was a company who would take your rifle, your ballistic requirements, and your budget, and develop a round for your rifle. Would you be interested in such a service? Why or why not? Looking for input here. The company would have the proper licensing to produce ammunition as well as the FFL to ship guns back and forth. If you would use this service. what would it be worth to you? |
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for me, under $1/rnd assuming i supply brass and i can get at least a couple 1000 rnds / year of 260AI with 140g hybrids. the nice thing about handloading is that as long as you have a reasonable stash of components, you can make the ammo whenever you need it. if you have to place orders 3 or 6 months ahead of time, it's less convenient.
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| That's the information I'm looking for. Based on user supplied brass, and user specifications, I don't think that $1 per round is unrealistic. The load development cost is more time and materials but once that is complete, then run cost is down. And it wouldn't be a 4-6 month lead time. Once the load is developed and specs are recorded, it wouldn't take more than a week to produce. And I'm talking about COAL tolerance less than .002 and concentricity less than .003. The goal being to produce top quality ammo for those who may not have the time or desire to make it themselves. If you could get ammunition that outshot FGMM for 2/3 the price, would that be worth it? |
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Quoted:
That's the information I'm looking for. Based on user supplied brass, and user specifications, I don't think that $1 per round is unrealistic. The load development cost is more time and materials but once that is complete, then run cost is down. And it wouldn't be a 4-6 month lead time. Once the load is developed and specs are recorded, it wouldn't take more than a week to produce. And I'm talking about COAL tolerance less than .002 and concentricity less than .003. The goal being to produce top quality ammo for those who may not have the time or desire to make it themselves. If you could get ammunition that outshot FGMM for 2/3 the price, would that be worth it? If you could get the price down to 2/3 the cost of FGMM you will find a market. The problem is going to be your fixed overhead to include: Very high quality storage for customer firearms, Insurance for the manufacturing of ammunition, FFL, Insurance for your customers guns and equipment. Keep in mind that customers who would likely be in the market for your services will also have very expensive firearms. Our $3-$5k rifles are cheap compared to some of my clients guns think in terms of $25-$200k. Don't underestimate what the true cost of insuring and shipping these firearms will be. If you are going to make and market semi custom ammunition that is a different type of business. As a conservative former accountant there is no way I would load on customer provided materials. Unless I know the province of the materials I would be unwilling to take on the potential liability associated with loading on their materials. Think about where that brass may have come form, how many times it has been loaded and to what pressures. Unless you source brass and bullets from a manufacture or wholesaler you are exposing yourself to huge amounts of risk. Remember, when things go sideways it is always somebody else's fault. You don't want to be that somebody else. There are benefits to starting a small business. I have always been an avid angler and hunter. As soon as I started my guide business all of my fishing and hunting related expenses became business expenses. As a result my accountant has been able to drastically reduce my tax burden! 
Don't want to be a kill joy, just another pov... |
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Quoted:
If you could get the price down to 2/3 the cost of FGMM you will find a market. The problem is going to be your fixed overhead to include: Very high quality storage for customer firearms, Insurance for the manufacturing of ammunition, FFL, Insurance for your customers guns and equipment. Keep in mind that customers who would likely be in the market for your services will also have very expensive firearms. Our $3-$5k rifles are cheap compared to some of my clients guns think in terms of $25-$200k. Don't underestimate what the true cost of insuring and shipping these firearms will be. If you are going to make and market semi custom ammunition that is a different type of business. As a conservative former accountant there is no way I would load on customer provided materials. Unless I know the province of the materials I would be unwilling to take on the potential liability associated with loading on their materials. Think about where that brass may have come form, how many times it has been loaded and to what pressures. Unless you source brass and bullets from a manufacture or wholesaler you are exposing yourself to huge amounts of risk. Remember, when things go sideways it is always somebody else's fault. You don't want to be that somebody else. There are benefits to starting a small business. I have always been an avid angler and hunter. As soon as I started my guide business all of my fishing and hunting related expenses became business expenses. As a result my accountant has been able to drastically reduce my tax burden!
Don't want to be a kill joy, just another pov... Quoted:
Quoted:
That's the information I'm looking for. Based on user supplied brass, and user specifications, I don't think that $1 per round is unrealistic. The load development cost is more time and materials but once that is complete, then run cost is down. And it wouldn't be a 4-6 month lead time. Once the load is developed and specs are recorded, it wouldn't take more than a week to produce. And I'm talking about COAL tolerance less than .002 and concentricity less than .003. The goal being to produce top quality ammo for those who may not have the time or desire to make it themselves. If you could get ammunition that outshot FGMM for 2/3 the price, would that be worth it? If you could get the price down to 2/3 the cost of FGMM you will find a market. The problem is going to be your fixed overhead to include: Very high quality storage for customer firearms, Insurance for the manufacturing of ammunition, FFL, Insurance for your customers guns and equipment. Keep in mind that customers who would likely be in the market for your services will also have very expensive firearms. Our $3-$5k rifles are cheap compared to some of my clients guns think in terms of $25-$200k. Don't underestimate what the true cost of insuring and shipping these firearms will be. If you are going to make and market semi custom ammunition that is a different type of business. As a conservative former accountant there is no way I would load on customer provided materials. Unless I know the province of the materials I would be unwilling to take on the potential liability associated with loading on their materials. Think about where that brass may have come form, how many times it has been loaded and to what pressures. Unless you source brass and bullets from a manufacture or wholesaler you are exposing yourself to huge amounts of risk. Remember, when things go sideways it is always somebody else's fault. You don't want to be that somebody else. There are benefits to starting a small business. I have always been an avid angler and hunter. As soon as I started my guide business all of my fishing and hunting related expenses became business expenses. As a result my accountant has been able to drastically reduce my tax burden!
Don't want to be a kill joy, just another pov... Came to post most of this. |
| That is a great post. And those are all things to consider. And they are all things I'm taking into account. I too have the concern about reloading on customer provided brass, as that is a major area of concern and one uncontrolled variable. My thought was requiring the customer to purchase high quality brass for the initial loading and an understanding that if the brass failed an inspection it would not be reloaded subsequently. Therefore the initial setup would run a bit more, but still not as much as buying commercially made ammo that did not perform as well. Subsequent loadings would of course be cheaper. Then again purchasing bulk brass would help eliminate liability and reduce cost. My thinking is a truly custom round for each customer. I would love to pick your brain more on the small business knowledge. |
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*sigh*
you do NOT need to store customer rifles. no need to ever even look at one. i sure as heck wouldn't send mine to him. ever. to think there is more risk in reloading precision rifle brass by picky customers than totally random brass scavenged off on public ranges that the remanufacturers use, is ludicrous. it's not more liability insurance either. also, what you are missing is excise tax. if someone pays for brass, you have to charge them 11%, which is A LOT. If they supply their own brass, then it is a reloading service he is performing, not remanufacturing ammo and you do not have to pay the 11% |
| Sorry to bore you Taliv. Just to clarify since you seem to look down on this conversation. When I say bulk brass, I was referring to new bulk brass, not second hand collected brass. And if you don't want to send your rifle, your choice. But I fail to see how one could load the best round for a rifle without it. Thanks for contributing constructive information. |
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I really don't think it would be viable. There are going to be too many issues with inventory supply and cost to make it reasonable. There are a few outfits that's sell cost effective match ammo already. The market for this is a tiny segment of an already small shooting niche.
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As an operations and small business consultant, I can add a few things...
When a client comes to me with an idea for a new business - usually the first question I ask is: "Are you independently wealthy, and if you're not - can you afford to loose a significant percentage of your life savings in the next 18 months?". To offer a truly custom ammo service that complies with all legal, insurance, liability, overhead, and safety requirements, and also provides a reasonable turnaround on product - I can easily get to $250K in start up costs without even getting a calculator out. Now if you have the cash, or have a pre-established business to piggy back on that could potentially sustain you, think hard about the following: -Be realistic about the price point you could offer loaded ammo. Take a 308, 175gr SMK load as an example. (Lots of speculation and assumption here - but it gives a some what realistic point of reverence) Let's say you buy everything in bulk and get an incredible deal on it. So, in one round we have a 175gr SMK @ $.20. (Remember, we got a deal on this), a primer @ $.02, 46grs of powder @ $.10, and a Lapua case @ $.40. So the initial load comes out to $14.40 per 20. Sounds great, except you need to make some money off of this - so you charge $25 an hour for your time - hoping to make $50K a year. Figuring it will take an hour to load 20 rds - setup, case prep, trickling every charge, seating, QC, packaging and shipping. Now we're at $39.40 per 20. But wait, now we have to think about overhead. You'll need an industrial space for zoning and powder/primer storage and FFL purposes - and at a great price of $1000 a month - that only adds $5.54 per 20 rds to the price which brings you to $45 per 20. Then add insurance, licenses, advertising, healthcare, 11% federal excise tax, etc etc...Not going to add it up - but I would guess you're at $65+ per box of 20 for 308 that may or may not shoot as good in the customer's rifle as FGMM. Yes, subsequent loadings on customer brass is cheaper...by about $.40. FGMM costs what it does because Federal can produce it in volume and distribute their overhead throughout their entire product line. You as a small business offering custom loads can not ever hope to compete. -From a QC standpoint - using customer supplied components for custom loading is probably not a good idea. Just think what issues lot to lot variances could potentially cause and then multiply by brass and bullets and powder and primers. -One school shooting puts you out of business, unless you have the capital to maintain a three year stock of all the components that you may potentially need. -What happens if the customer has a 375 Cheytec or other relatively proprietary chambering @ $350ish per die set?? You'll have to absorb that cost., as passing it on is unrealistic. Even if their gun costs $15K , I can see people bulking when load development costs get to $600+. -What happens when you can't get a gun to shoot? We've all had that one gun, that for no apparent reason - we just couldn't get to shoot, or we spent months and months and a small fortune in components to get it "good enough, but not great". I don't see anyone paying for load development - for a 1.5 MOA load. I could go on and on... Honestly, as a 25+ year reloader who truly enjoys the activity - I think it sounds like a great way to make a living. As a consultant - there is no way I would touch this as an individual. The risks are substantial, the chances of making a decent wage is minimal, and you would be years and years recouping your initial cash outlay. If three guys at Black Hills went to the CEO and said "Hey, we'd like to set up this custom ammo shop as a division of the company..." I'd sign off in a second. As other's have said, not to be a kill joy...But I'd just walk away from this one. |
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i did not mean to convey boredom. i am not looking down on it at all. i am interested and would love to see more ammo mfgs out there, especially doing precision work. i wish you the best and hope you make a go of it.
the others who make custom ammo for specific rifles do not receive the rifles. they just make a test batch of ammo that is basically a ladder test and ship the ammo to the customer to shoot in their rifle and return the targets. more commonly, the shooter already has a load they like and they just request a particular recipe. (which is what i would do) so in the latter case, no time or effort is spent on your side working up a load. you just make the ammo. works out better for everyone that way. an order from me would contain a box of several times fired brass, and instructions to use a .293 size neck bushing when sizing, a wolf primer, 43.90g of R17 and a berger hybrid seated to a particular depth. i might get picky about the dies you use too. if it shot well, i'd buy it |
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Quoted:
As an operations and small business consultant, I can add a few things... When a client comes to me with an idea for a new business - usually the first question I ask is: "Are you independently wealthy, and if you're not - can you afford to loose a significant percentage of your life savings in the next 18 months?". To offer a truly custom ammo service that complies with all legal, insurance, liability, overhead, and safety requirements, and also provides a reasonable turnaround on product - I can easily get to $250K in start up costs without even getting a calculator out. Now if you have the cash, or have a pre-established business to piggy back on that could potentially sustain you, think hard about the following: -Be realistic about the price point you could offer loaded ammo. Take a 308, 175gr SMK load as an example. (Lots of speculation and assumption here - but it gives a some what realistic point of reverence) Let's say you buy everything in bulk and get an incredible deal on it. So, in one round we have a 175gr SMK @ $.20. (Remember, we got a deal on this), a primer @ $.02, 46grs of powder @ $.10, and a Lapua case @ $.40. So the initial load comes out to $14.40 per 20. Sounds great, except you need to make some money off of this - so you charge $25 an hour for your time - hoping to make $50K a year. Figuring it will take an hour to load 20 rds - setup, case prep, trickling every charge, seating, QC, packaging and shipping. Now we're at $39.40 per 20. But wait, now we have to think about overhead. You'll need an industrial space for zoning and powder/primer storage and FFL purposes - and at a great price of $1000 a month - that only adds $5.54 per 20 rds to the price which brings you to $45 per 20. Then add insurance, licenses, advertising, healthcare, 11% federal excise tax, etc etc...Not going to add it up - but I would guess you're at $65+ per box of 20 for 308 that may or may not shoot as good in the customer's rifle as FGMM. Yes, subsequent loadings on customer brass is cheaper...by about $.40. FGMM costs what it does because Federal can produce it in volume and distribute their overhead throughout their entire product line. You as a small business offering custom loads can not ever hope to compete. Quoted:
As an operations and small business consultant, I can add a few things... When a client comes to me with an idea for a new business - usually the first question I ask is: "Are you independently wealthy, and if you're not - can you afford to loose a significant percentage of your life savings in the next 18 months?". To offer a truly custom ammo service that complies with all legal, insurance, liability, overhead, and safety requirements, and also provides a reasonable turnaround on product - I can easily get to $250K in start up costs without even getting a calculator out. Now if you have the cash, or have a pre-established business to piggy back on that could potentially sustain you, think hard about the following: -Be realistic about the price point you could offer loaded ammo. Take a 308, 175gr SMK load as an example. (Lots of speculation and assumption here - but it gives a some what realistic point of reverence) Let's say you buy everything in bulk and get an incredible deal on it. So, in one round we have a 175gr SMK @ $.20. (Remember, we got a deal on this), a primer @ $.02, 46grs of powder @ $.10, and a Lapua case @ $.40. So the initial load comes out to $14.40 per 20. Sounds great, except you need to make some money off of this - so you charge $25 an hour for your time - hoping to make $50K a year. Figuring it will take an hour to load 20 rds - setup, case prep, trickling every charge, seating, QC, packaging and shipping. Now we're at $39.40 per 20. But wait, now we have to think about overhead. You'll need an industrial space for zoning and powder/primer storage and FFL purposes - and at a great price of $1000 a month - that only adds $5.54 per 20 rds to the price which brings you to $45 per 20. Then add insurance, licenses, advertising, healthcare, 11% federal excise tax, etc etc...Not going to add it up - but I would guess you're at $65+ per box of 20 for 308 that may or may not shoot as good in the customer's rifle as FGMM. Yes, subsequent loadings on customer brass is cheaper...by about $.40. FGMM costs what it does because Federal can produce it in volume and distribute their overhead throughout their entire product line. You as a small business offering custom loads can not ever hope to compete. my guess is the guys who are doing it now put under $40k into it. no idea where you got $250k. that's crazy. your math is way off because your assumptions are way off. nobody is going to spend an hour loading 20 rounds. they're going to spend maybe 10 hours making 2000-5000 rounds. then switch to the next load and do it again -From a QC standpoint - using customer supplied components for custom loading is probably not a good idea. Just think what issues lot to lot variances could potentially cause and then multiply by brass and bullets and powder and primers. dude, are you on crack? nobody buying custom friggin ammo is going to send crazy mixed lots of crap to be loaded. he's going to get cases that have already been fired in the gun in question. nobody is going to send powder and primers to him because it's a giant PITA for earth-people to ship hazmat. -One school shooting puts you out of business, unless you have the capital to maintain a three year stock of all the components that you may potentially need. why? has a school shooting put another ammo mfg out of business? we've had 74 school shootings in the past 18 months. by your logic, all the ammo mfgs should have been out of business already. maybe they're protected by a federal law of some sort.... seriously, where do people come up with this stuff? -What happens if the customer has a 375 Cheytec or other relatively proprietary chambering @ $350ish per die set?? You'll have to absorb that cost., as passing it on is unrealistic. Even if their gun costs $15K , I can see people bulking when load development costs get to $600+. then he charges the customer a $350 setup fee. what kind of consulting do you do?? -What happens when you can't get a gun to shoot? We've all had that one gun, that for no apparent reason - we just couldn't get to shoot, or we spent months and months and a small fortune in components to get it "good enough, but not great". I don't see anyone paying for load development - for a 1.5 MOA load. then he stops doing business with that customer long before he spends months and a small fortune on it. send one, maybe two dev packs with 20-40 rounds in it. if the rifle likes a load, run with it. if not, then no big deal. consultants... sheesh! |
| A few points to clarify; I'm not interested in doing this to get rich. More as a way to make a little money doing something I enjoy doing. Not a huge business where I advertise and look for more and more work. More a word of mouth situation with select clientele. Not the huge storefront or warehouse. I can satisfy all requirements of the FFL without those. And I don't necessarily value my time at $25 an hour. Like I said, I'm not thinking of doing this to get rich, or as a primary source of income. I understand that Federal charges what they do through volume of sale, I also know that I can manufacture better rounds and that there are people that will pay for that. The reason for my original post was to gauge interest and demand for this service. To see what shooters would look for in a service like this. Taliv, I can see your point, but what you're suggesting isn't really what I'm looking at. I've seen the companies that send you a sample pack and you pick the best round. While that might get you close, it's not going to get you the best possible round. My concern with your scenario is if I build a round using only the specifications you gave me, and for some reason you have a KB, now I'm eating it because I didn't do proper load development. |
| Taliv, with a user specified bullet, it can be done in 25-50. You specify Berger hybrids, type of brass and powder, all that needs to be done is finding the right powder load and seating depth. But it's also dependent on your accuracy requirement. I've done loads for friends that they were happy with .5 moa, and that was less work than getting single hole groups obviously. I've also loaded up .308 to book specs and just by making sure each round was loaded the same and ensuring concentricity, I loaded it in a gun I had never shot before and produced groups around .5. Lots of variables. But my goal would be customer satisfaction. If I can make you a better product for less than you'd pay off the shelf, would it be worth it to you? And yeah, there are waivers, but in this day and age they are only for show anymore. |
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So make a 50 round test pack.
I am not a consumer of off the shelf ammo cause no factory makes 260 ackley improved and you may or may not make better ammo but as long as it's good enough I'd buy it because I'd rather have my time back. (Btw see ladder test I posted in reloading) .5 moa is good enough Keep in mind I only get 2000 rounds or so of barrel life and over that time I typically keep putting more powder in to try to maintain a velocity target so normally my charge changes every 300 rounds of so. So I wouldnt be interested in trying to chase a one hole load and then buy thousands of rounds of it. I know it won't be a one hole load for long. |
| That's almost a separate niche, but one that is doable. And that is one of the issues with a barrel burner, chasing the barrel. What speeds are you looking for? With that information, and a good barrel, the sample size could be cut down. Especially if .5 is good enough for you. |
| While a nifty idea, I dont think it would ever be feasible. For one, the majority of folks that need or desire this sort of minutia are going to load their own ammo. If a person is going to take the time to dick with all the communication, wait for ammo to ship, work a ladder, send the results back, wait for more ammo....they are already loading their own. Secondly, I dont ever see an operation like this producing ammo equal to off the shelf match ammo for the same money, let alone less. |
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Quoted:
Here is the question for everyone. Lots of people shoot precision rifle, however not all of them reload. Suppose there was a company who would take your rifle, your ballistic requirements, and your budget, and develop a round for your rifle. Would you be interested in such a service? Why or why not? Looking for input here. The company would have the proper licensing to produce ammunition as well as the FFL to ship guns back and forth. If you would use this service. what would it be worth to you? There's a fellow over on Sniper's Hide, 'ChadTRG' who started DallasReloaders, or something like that. You send him your rifle and he custom makes/tunes ammo for it, according to your desires. I reload, so I wouldn't be interested, but people have used him in the past. Chris |
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Here is one company who is already doing this: http://coppercreekammo.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=40&products_id=107 |
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you have any idea what it would cost to ship AND insure a rifle?... figure the rifle being 2 to 5k, with another 1 to 3k in optics....
example... my gun as it sits, with the suppressor is about 8000$ and would weigh around 30 pounds in a good shipping case what you would pay to ship, i could by a reloading press for End of day(4 Business Days)FedEx Ground®218.98 |
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you have any idea what it would cost to ship AND insure a rifle?... figure the rifle being 2 to 5k, with another 1 to 3k in optics.... example... my gun as it sits, with the suppressor is about 8000$ and would weigh around 30 pounds in a good shipping case what you would pay to ship, i could by a reloading press for End of day(4 Business Days)FedEx Ground®218.98 Servants: how do they work? People pay other people great sums of money to do all sorts of shit that they don't want to do. Chris |
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Servants: how do they work? People pay other people great sums of money to do all sorts of shit that they don't want to do. Chris Quoted:
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you have any idea what it would cost to ship AND insure a rifle?... figure the rifle being 2 to 5k, with another 1 to 3k in optics.... example... my gun as it sits, with the suppressor is about 8000$ and would weigh around 30 pounds in a good shipping case what you would pay to ship, i could by a reloading press for End of day(4 Business Days)FedEx Ground®218.98 Servants: how do they work? People pay other people great sums of money to do all sorts of shit that they don't want to do. Chris Now that's funny. AND so true |
| personally no. I like working out the load myself. Before I got into reloading I'd buy a few brands and weights, find one that got my rifle at about it's limit and stick to that. Lots of effort in finding exactly the correct load for a given rifle. I like the idea though - it might work |
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IMO anyone interested in this would already have worked up a load for their rifle. I don't think it'd be worth the costs associated with shipping/insuring the rifle to you.
Now, if we could give you the specs for our load and ship you JUST the brass fired from our rifle, there might be enough people wanting to do that, depending on what you would charge. If you could produce rounds loaded to an exact base-to-ogive length with an exact amount of a specific powder, and a specified primer/projectile, and charge as much as off-the-shelf FGMM, then it would be worth it to many people. I don't know if you would be able to charge so little, and if it cost any significant amount more than FGMM I just don't see a market for it. |