Posted: 6/28/2015 4:51:26 PM EDT
| Has anyone set up a Dillion Rapid Trim on a single stage press? |
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The Dillon trimmer is the worst one on the market, I sold mine with five Dillon trim dies to a friend for $100 just to get rid of it.
My biggest complaint is the Dillon trim dies constrict the case necks way too much. It requires the use of K&M's Expandiron or Sinclair's neck mandrel to open it back up to a reasonable neck tension. The other failing of Dillon's trimmer is that it doesn't chamfer or debur. This must be done in a separate operation. Many people simply trim, forcefully seat the bullet and go shoot. This may work OK for FMJ's with no expectation of high accuracy but it won't fly if you are trying to load the most accurate ammo. There are several trimmers on the market, The Worlds Finest Trimmer and Giraud's to name two, that are much cheaper and trim, chamfer and debur in one pass. If you are doing high volume look at Giraud Tools more expensive unit or Gracey's Match Prep. Buy Giraud's carbide blade upgrade if you go with Gracey's unit. |
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Quoted:
The Dillon trimmer is the worst one on the market, I sold mine with five Dillon trim dies to a friend for $100 just to get rid of it. My biggest complaint is the Dillon trim dies constrict the case necks way too much. It requires the use of K&M's Expandiron or Sinclair's neck mandrel to open it back up to a reasonable neck tension. The other failing of Dillon's trimmer is that it doesn't chamfer or debur. This must be done in a separate operation. Many people simply trim, forcefully seat the bullet and go shoot. This may work OK for FMJ's with no expectation of high accuracy but it won't fly if you are trying to load the most accurate ammo. There are several trimmers on the market, The Worlds Finest Trimmer and Giraud's to name two, that are much cheaper and trim, chamfer and debur in one pass. If you are doing high volume look at Giraud Tools more expensive unit or Gracey's Match Prep. Buy Giraud's carbide blade upgrade if you go with Gracey's unit. The WFT doesn't debur and chamfer that I can find anywhere. From what I have seen the only drill mounted trimmer that will do that is the Giraud Tri-Way Trimmer. Also, if you want to have a looser neck you simply buy a C4HD trim die for the Dillon instead of the Dillon branded trim die. Did you get the "no expectation of high accuracy" thing from Doug as he tried to feed me that same basic line too. If that were the case then all match ammunition would be chamfered using the VLD taper while in reality none is that I am aware of (I am happy to be proven wrong though). There is nothing wrong with little to no chamfer as long as the cut is clean for 600yd and in accuracy especially if you get a different trim die for the Dillon and aren't doing benchrest type shooting. I did a test here between the Dillon, Possum Hollow, and Giraud and honestly found that I much preferred the cut of the Dillon over that of the Giraud as the Giraud is finicky to adjust and you will get uneven chamfers if your brass isn't all exactly the same. The only real downside of the Dillon is that the vacuum is noisy but if you want to process a lot of brass very quickly that isn't required to hold 1/2 MOA out to 1000yds I don't see an issue with a square cut shoulder with no (or little) burr and boat tail bullets. ETA: Also, trimming 300BLK on the Giraud is a painful (literally) experience. I plan on getting a RT-1500 for my S1050 and ditching the Giraud most likely but may keep the Giraud for .308 Win. |
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I've pulled bullets seated in brass that was used "as is" directly after being trimmed in my Dillon trimmer and it had deep striations in every bullet jacket. Between the burr left inside the case and the tight constriction the bullet jackets were damaged.
My Giraud and even my Gracey cuts three ways and are accurate to .001" and square. The secret to getting dead square cuts from either of those tools is to allow the case to spin under reduced pressure one revolution after the blades have seemed to have stopped cutting. This removes any misalignment that may come from the course threads vs. the cutting head being less than perfectly aligned. Dillon blades are not perfectly aligned either and there is no way to spin the case to make them right. In fact the Dillon system incorporates two connections with course threads as opposed to only one when using Gracey/Giraud units. Some people like the idea of resizing and trimming in one fell swoop. It doesn't work for me. People have set their Dillon 650's up using the Dillon trim motor and load without deburring or chamfering and I say more power to them. If it works acceptably for them then have at it. I want .0025" to .003" neck tension on my semi-auto loads and that can't be accomplished using Dillon's dies without modification. They are closer to .005"+.neck tension coming out of their dies. I also want my brass three-way trimmed in one pass and Dillon can't do it. |
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Quoted:
I've pulled bullets seated in brass that was used "as is" directly after being trimmed in my Dillon trimmer and it had deep striations in every bullet jacket. Between the burr left inside the case and the tight constriction the bullet jackets were damaged. My Giraud and even my Gracey cuts three ways and are accurate to .001" and square. The secret to getting dead square cuts from either of those tools is to allow the case to spin under reduced pressure one revolution after the blades have seemed to have stopped cutting. This removes any misalignment that may come from the course threads vs. the cutting head being less than perfectly aligned. Dillon blades are not perfectly aligned either and there is no way to spin the case to make them right. In fact the Dillon system incorporates two connections with course threads as opposed to only one when using Gracey/Giraud units. Some people like the idea of resizing and trimming in one fell swoop. It doesn't work for me. People have set their Dillon 650's up using the Dillon trim motor and load without deburring or chamfering and I say more power to them. If it works acceptably for them then have at it. I want .0025" to .003" neck tension on my semi-auto loads and that can't be accomplished using Dillon's dies without modification. They are closer to .005"+.neck tension coming out of their dies. I also want my brass three-way trimmed in one pass and Dillon can't do it. I must just be unlucky then I guess as when I spin the case in the Giraud 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn I still get uneven chamfers (could be the result of my sizing process or brass too due to the fact that I don't neck turn). Some of it is that the tolerances of the case holder allow for some wobble during the spinning process though. You can get the correct neck tension though with the Dillon though by not using Dillon trim dies and instead purchasing C4HD or other brands from the get go but you will never have the ability to use a bushing system though. With the Dillon you have to size and trim at the same time as the sizing operation is what grips the case to stop it from spinning while the trimmer is working. You will run into problems if you try to size before the trim/size station. Has anyone ever done a test as to whether a scrape in the jacket hurts the bullet? I can't imagine there is that much of an effect considering what the rifling does to the jacket when the round is fired (or for that mater the barrel extension of an AR-15 type rifle). In the end use what process you feel is best as the Giraud and the Dillon are good trimmers, however, for high volume processing of brass that isn't required to be match winning accurate it is pretty much impossible to beat a Super 1050 with a case feeder and Dillon trimmer. |
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Quoted:
I want .0025" to .003" neck tension on my semi-auto loads and that can't be accomplished using Dillon's dies without modification. They are closer to .005"+.neck tension coming out of their dies. I also want my brass three-way trimmed in one pass and Dillon can't do it. Good thing running a hone in there to lighten up the tension only takes a few seconds. |
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BINGO WE HAVE A WINNER!
for blasting cheap ammo it may be ok but for any precision at all it is a JOKE...and i own three dillon 550's. NO WHERE in their data does it say it is a min spec die...to screw your brass. i almost returned mine, but i do have a lathe and a carbide boring bar...so i just opened mine up to a more useful dia. Quoted:
The Dillon trimmer is the worst one on the market, I sold mine with five Dillon trim dies to a friend for $100 just to get rid of it. My biggest complaint is the Dillon trim dies constrict the case necks way too much. It requires the use of K&M's Expandiron or Sinclair's neck mandrel to open it back up to a reasonable neck tension. The other failing of Dillon's trimmer is that it doesn't chamfer or debur. This must be done in a separate operation. Many people simply trim, forcefully seat the bullet and go shoot. This may work OK for FMJ's with no expectation of high accuracy but it won't fly if you are trying to load the most accurate ammo. There are several trimmers on the market, The Worlds Finest Trimmer and Giraud's to name two, that are much cheaper and trim, chamfer and debur in one pass. If you are doing high volume look at Giraud Tools more expensive unit or Gracey's Match Prep. Buy Giraud's carbide blade upgrade if you go with Gracey's unit. |
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I have Dillon 1050's with RT-1500 trimmers. After the size/trim die, I have a Lee universal decap die body with a Lee expander installed. It has a very gradual taper, so it puts less downward pressure on the neck. It opens up a .223 from about .216 to .220. I then have a Dillon swager die set up just to put a slight flare, to ensure the mouth does not scrape the bullet.
From there, the brass is wet-cleaned- I am trying the stainless pins, but vibratory cleaning with ceramic media is still giving me best results. My results are- square-cut case mouth, slightly flared and then deburred by the ceramic media. Neck tension is optimal, and measured runout usually about .002 or better with loaded ammo. Trim length and headspace is very consistant. And... I can do all that with each pull of the handle, prepping about 20+ cases per minute without having to handle individual pieces of brass. |
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Quoted:
I have Dillon 1050's with RT-1500 trimmers. After the size/trim die, I have a Lee universal decap die body with a Lee expander installed. It has a very gradual taper, so it puts less downward pressure on the neck. It opens up a .223 from about .216 to .220. I then have a Dillon swager die set up just to put a slight flare, to ensure the mouth does not scrape the bullet. From there, the brass is wet-cleaned- I am trying the stainless pins, but vibratory cleaning with ceramic media is still giving me best results. My results are- square-cut case mouth, slightly flared and then deburred by the ceramic media. Neck tension is optimal, and measured runout usually about .002 or better with loaded ammo. Trim length and headspace is very consistant. And... I can do all that with each pull of the handle, prepping about 20+ cases per minute without having to handle individual pieces of brass. I corn cob tumble after processing , it removes any left over material that may be stuck due to case lube. I own both the dillon and Giraud, each has their purpose. For the 2 buckets of brass, the 1200 got the nod. AS i reuse brass it's going on the Giraud for the bolt action. |
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I guess Federal Match, Black Hills Mk262, etc. are made by teams of little old ladies with Giraud trimmers and medical grade scales.
Seriously, the Dillon trimmer blade is slightly canted intentionally so there is about a 4 degree IIRC angle to the cut. I expand the mouth with a Lee expander to help remove any burr that might remain, and flare the mouth slightly. My cleaning process is also a deburring operation. I prepared some test pieces with and without a VLD reamer to compare the results. I seated Match Kings then pulled them- they looked pretty much the same. And I can prep 20 pieces of brass per minute, completely, without handling individual pieces of brass. To say that the Dillon trimmers are the worst on the market, whatever, is a disservice to the guys here that want to make an informed decision. It aint the arrow, its the Indian- and in this case, a very good arrow as well. ETA: JimBeam- yes, it can be used on a single-stage press. Get some good die lock rings like the Hornaday pinch-bolt type (Academy sports usually has them). You install the sizing/trim die as usual, checking for headspace with a gauge (and not trusting anyone else). it takes a little trial and error because the lock ring will lift the die slightly as you tighten it. Once set run a few pieces to verify headspace. After it is verified, make an index mark at the front of the press and on the die lock ring. Now, run the ram up with a piece of brass slighlty .005 or so longer than the trim length you want. Screw the jam nut (NOT the same thread as a die locknut!!!!) and screw the trimer down til the blade touches the brass. Tighten the jam nut and test- you can back off on the lock nut slightly and turn the trimmer down too with some practice. |
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Quoted:
I must just be unlucky then I guess as when I spin the case in theGiraud 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn I still get uneven chamfers That is 100% because your neck wall thickness is uneven, this is a feature of the Giraud. It tells you that case will offset the bullet from centerline and should not be used for your rounds you want to be very accurate. I used to go through my brass with a tube mic checking for neck wall thickness consistency, with the Giraud all I have to do is look for the uneven chamfer. The chamfer doesn't need to be even, it just has to be enough so the jacket doesn't get shaved upon seating, these shavings build up uneven and can cause the bullet to seat crooked. "Factories don't chamfer" well they have to make a profit and they likely don't start with a freshly trimmed sharp case mouth and I for one want better than factory match ammo. |
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That is 100% because your neck wall thickness is uneven, this is a feature of the Giraud. It tells you that case will offset the bullet from centerline and should not be used for your rounds you want to be very accurate. I used to go through my brass with a tube mic checking for neck wall thickness consistency, with the Giraud all I have to do is look for the uneven chamfer. The chamfer doesn't need to be even, it just has to be enough so the jacket doesn't get shaved upon seating, these shavings build up uneven and can cause the bullet to seat crooked. "Factories don't chamfer" well they have to make a profit and they likely don't start with a freshly trimmed sharp case mouth and I for one want better than factory match ammo. Quoted:
Quoted:
I must just be unlucky then I guess as when I spin the case in theGiraud 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn I still get uneven chamfers That is 100% because your neck wall thickness is uneven, this is a feature of the Giraud. It tells you that case will offset the bullet from centerline and should not be used for your rounds you want to be very accurate. I used to go through my brass with a tube mic checking for neck wall thickness consistency, with the Giraud all I have to do is look for the uneven chamfer. The chamfer doesn't need to be even, it just has to be enough so the jacket doesn't get shaved upon seating, these shavings build up uneven and can cause the bullet to seat crooked. "Factories don't chamfer" well they have to make a profit and they likely don't start with a freshly trimmed sharp case mouth and I for one want better than factory match ammo. Borderpatrol stated the trimmer is the worst, because of the neck tension issue- not an issue if expand the neck or hone the die. The sharp freshly trimmed case mouth can be deburred and also is not a problem if you flare the case mouth slightly. In a lot of cases the factory ammo I mentioned IS a standard for accuracy and will get near the accuracy limits of the rifle it is used in. I can meet or exceed the performace of that ammo, without having to handle any brass individually- and that saves me a LOT of time. |
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Borderpatrol stated the trimmer is the worst, because of the neck tension issue- not an issue if expand the neck or hone the die. The sharp freshly trimmed case mouth can be deburred and also is not a problem if you flare the case mouth slightly. In a lot of cases the factory ammo I mentioned IS a standard for accuracy and will get near the accuracy limits of the rifle it is used in. I can meet or exceed the performace of that ammo, without having to handle any brass individually- and that saves me a LOT of time. Quoted:
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Quoted:
I must just be unlucky then I guess as when I spin the case in theGiraud 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn I still get uneven chamfers That is 100% because your neck wall thickness is uneven, this is a feature of the Giraud. It tells you that case will offset the bullet from centerline and should not be used for your rounds you want to be very accurate. I used to go through my brass with a tube mic checking for neck wall thickness consistency, with the Giraud all I have to do is look for the uneven chamfer. The chamfer doesn't need to be even, it just has to be enough so the jacket doesn't get shaved upon seating, these shavings build up uneven and can cause the bullet to seat crooked. "Factories don't chamfer" well they have to make a profit and they likely don't start with a freshly trimmed sharp case mouth and I for one want better than factory match ammo. Borderpatrol stated the trimmer is the worst, because of the neck tension issue- not an issue if expand the neck or hone the die. The sharp freshly trimmed case mouth can be deburred and also is not a problem if you flare the case mouth slightly. In a lot of cases the factory ammo I mentioned IS a standard for accuracy and will get near the accuracy limits of the rifle it is used in. I can meet or exceed the performace of that ammo, without having to handle any brass individually- and that saves me a LOT of time. I was addressing your statement about your uneven chamfers and why the chamfer is there. I was making no comment on the Dillon trimmer. |