Posted: 11/17/2014 2:06:09 PM EDT
| I'm hoping to soon pick up an LMT 308. This will be for bench shooting, mostly at 100-200 yds. I wanted a little more magnification (12-15) to be able to shoot the tone groups the rifle is capable of. Although most of my shooting will be around 200 yards, I will probably get out to a longer rifle range a few times a year. I like a nice eye box and wanted a good tactical reticle. The Leupy mark 4, 4.5-14x50 LR w/ TMR seems to fit the bill. But it's second focal plane, only the Extended Range (ER) scopes which are a few hundred dollars more. Most of the time The scope will be between 10 and 14x, do I really need a FFP? |
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Quoted:You can still use the reticle scale at the proper magnification.
LOL. This is the equivalent to say "BDC works great". It MIGHT work ok for your uses, but for actual precision shooting it does not. What "works" for some people might be an issue for others. If you have shitty skills (or want to progress no further in development of those skills) then lesser gear "works" fine. Gear is not Skills, but you should attempt to make them match. That dial and multiply method is a joke imo. Saying you can dial the scope to an arbitrary point will place it on a different arbitrary magnification, despite what the tube marking shows then applying an absolute to try and cover two arbitrary relatives is NOT how precision shooting works. It's a work-around that might be acceptable at shorter ranges and/or larger targets. If you get to that point, just dial and hold center! No, you don't need FFP, just like you don't need match quality ammo, just like you don't need a sub-MOA rifle, just like you don't need trigger time, just like you don't need proper form and consistency when behind a precision rifle. You CAN shoot without all of those things. Yes, do you WANT FFP, and if you're even remotely serious about making hits vs feeding the berm, you should get a hold off to get a FFP scope with a decent milling reticle. In fact, I'd say get FFP before a zoom past 10x, before illumination, before zero stop, before parallax adjustment, before MIL vs MOA, before a cost or weight you want to be in, because all of those features are important but not until you can reliably use your reticle. I'll go one step further even... SFP < Fixed Power < FFP That said, no at 200y it won't matter greatly. But A. Don't cheap out on glass. B. Don't buy just for today. Get the good gear and it might not hold you up, get the second rate gear and it definitely will. As for the Mk4, they aren't bad, but they are obsolete. Get a mid-range Vortex PST over a Mk4. In that price range, I'd also recommend a couple Burris and Bushnell parts. If you aren't shooting anything but groups on a static range in a sitting or prone position, I wouldn't use the reticle for holds at all. |
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Jesus Christ guy you always jump to the extreme. For this guys use that he pointed out in the OP, SFP will for him. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Yea, because the default opinion should be "You don't need to know why - just buy the cheap thing. Also here is a misleading and very subjective statement that I'll present as a fact" God forbid you toss out personal experience and reasons the OP might be able to use to make an INFORMED decision. |
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Yea, because the default opinion should be "You don't need to know why - just buy the cheap thing. Also here is a misleading and very subjective statement that I'll present as a fact" God forbid you toss out personal experience and reasons the OP might be able to use to make an INFORMED decision. Quoted:
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Jesus Christ guy you always jump to the extreme. For this guys use that he pointed out in the OP, SFP will for him. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Yea, because the default opinion should be "You don't need to know why - just buy the cheap thing. Also here is a misleading and very subjective statement that I'll present as a fact" God forbid you toss out personal experience and reasons the OP might be able to use to make an INFORMED decision. What makes you think he doesn't know the whys of FFP? The question was "do I really need", for HIS 100-200 yard shooting groups off a bench, maybe some longer range once in a while. Not everybody has the same requirements as you or I. I too choose FFP scopes and agree with your points but some really don't need it. The extra $3-400 for FFP may not be worth it for someone shooting paper at known distances off a bench. |
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Truth. I had to use a SFP for a precision class this summer, just because of how things worked out. I hated every second of it. Luckily for me a lot of the curriculum was dialing. But ranging blew hard. Quoted:
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once you go FFP you never go back Truth. I had to use a SFP for a precision class this summer, just because of how things worked out. I hated every second of it. Luckily for me a lot of the curriculum was dialing. But ranging blew hard. For the OP's requirement, a SFP should be enough as long as he knows the pros/cons of SFP and FFP systems. SFP scopes have been working very well for people for what...over 100 years? Now, if you have some competition where you have to range on the fly and do it quickly, the FFP scope might be the better option. Consequently, if you're shooting tiny P-dogs at 400-500 yds., you might prefer a SFP scope. It all comes down to the right tool for the job and knowing what that job is. Chris |
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It all comes down to the right tool for the job and knowing what that job is. Exactly why I said don't buy your gear for TODAY. Having a role for your gear is excellent, but try and having slightly more foresight. Don't buy something that matches your skill, buy something better and make your skill match up to it. SFP is limited and dying, no doubt about it. The OP expressed interest in shooting further, I'm not sure I'd buy the SFP with the lower demand / resale, or solely based on what I needed today. |
| I heard the OP say he shot known distances. The WHOLE POINT of a FFP scope (as far as I know, but I would be eager to learn something new) is to better use a RANGE FINDING AND DROP ESTIMATING (Tactical) RETICLE. I know the OP said he wanted a Tactical reticle, but I can't for the life of me figure out why. Learn your come-ups and dial in your dope for your known distance. |
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Exactly why I said don't buy your gear for TODAY. Having a role for your gear is excellent, but try and having slightly more foresight. Don't buy something that matches your skill, buy something better and make your skill match up to it. SFP is limited and dying, no doubt about it. The OP expressed interest in shooting further, I'm not sure I'd buy the SFP with the lower demand / resale, or solely based on what I needed today. Quoted:
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It all comes down to the right tool for the job and knowing what that job is. Exactly why I said don't buy your gear for TODAY. Having a role for your gear is excellent, but try and having slightly more foresight. Don't buy something that matches your skill, buy something better and make your skill match up to it. SFP is limited and dying, no doubt about it. The OP expressed interest in shooting further, I'm not sure I'd buy the SFP with the lower demand / resale, or solely based on what I needed today. The OP asked what he NEEDED, not what he should DESIRE, or STRIVE FOR. He is obviously on a budget, and gave us parameters to use in our consideration. If he would have asked, "I'm just getting into precision shooting, should I get a FFP or SFP?", then your responses would be perfect. I'd be endorsing your comments. But because he asked what he NEEDED, and gave us the parameters to consider, I think he should be told the truth - he doesn't NEED a FFP scope for his listed givens. |
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J Quoted:
For the OP's requirement, a SFP should be enough as long as he knows the pros/cons of SFP and FFP systems. SFP scopes have been working very well for people for what...over 100 years? Now, if you have some competition where you have to range on the fly and do it quickly, the FFP scope might be the better option. Consequently, if you're shooting tiny P-dogs at 400-500 yds., you might prefer a SFP scope. It all comes down to the right tool for the job and knowing what that job is. Chris Quoted:
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once you go FFP you never go back Truth. I had to use a SFP for a precision class this summer, just because of how things worked out. I hated every second of it. Luckily for me a lot of the curriculum was dialing. But ranging blew hard. For the OP's requirement, a SFP should be enough as long as he knows the pros/cons of SFP and FFP systems. SFP scopes have been working very well for people for what...over 100 years? Now, if you have some competition where you have to range on the fly and do it quickly, the FFP scope might be the better option. Consequently, if you're shooting tiny P-dogs at 400-500 yds., you might prefer a SFP scope. It all comes down to the right tool for the job and knowing what that job is. Chris I agree with this. SFP is great for small targets or shooting standing. For the flexibility of leading or ranging at any mag, FFP is great. Not everyone needs FFP, but it is great for most things when you can get it. |
| For the majority of your shooting, 100-200 yards, and your application, bench shooting, the SFP will work just fine. I've got both SFP and FFP scopes and for under 200 yards I see no real benefit of the FFP other than not having to dial to max when sighting in (and even that isn't a big deal). Where FFP shines is at longer distances and moving targets, elevation and windage holds are easier to quickly calculate, for me. |
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Quoted: I really really wish they made a NXS 5.5-22 in FFP with zerostop. It would make my scope searching a lot easier, because I'm all over the place trying to choose one for my 260. Quoted: Quoted: I wonder about NightForce. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I really really wish they made a NXS 5.5-22 in FFP with zerostop. It would make my scope searching a lot easier, because I'm all over the place trying to choose one for my 260. It's more money than the Nightforce but take a look at the Razor Gen II 4.5-27. It is a very nice optic. I have one on my 260.
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for 1-500 yards, SFP is fine.Although I do like the FFP more, SFP will be GTG at the distances your shooting at. what does distance have to do with it? so if i'm shooting a stage like one of the moving chaos variations, where you have movers at 500 yards, and after hitting the mover, you have to shoot small plates at 130, 270, 350, 460, and then shoot the mover 5 more times.... in about 60-90 seconds... i should stick with SFP because i'm inside 500 yards? |
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Quoted: what does distance have to do with it? so if i'm shooting a stage like one of the moving chaos variations, where you have movers at 500 yards, and after hitting the mover, you have to shoot small plates at 130, 270, 350, 460, and then shoot the mover 5 more times.... in about 60-90 seconds... i should stick with SFP because i'm inside 500 yards? Quoted: Quoted: for 1-500 yards, SFP is fine.Although I do like the FFP more, SFP will be GTG at the distances your shooting at. what does distance have to do with it? so if i'm shooting a stage like one of the moving chaos variations, where you have movers at 500 yards, and after hitting the mover, you have to shoot small plates at 130, 270, 350, 460, and then shoot the mover 5 more times.... in about 60-90 seconds... i should stick with SFP because i'm inside 500 yards? My personal thought really. Usually if I have a SFP, I mostly keep it at at fixed power anyway. I'm used to FFP scopes. It's nice to have it, but it's not then end-all-be-all OP will be fine with an SFP |
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I think that SFP are ok for the OP uses but getting a FFP isn't a bad investment. FFP will be helpful if you don’t want to shoot on the assigned magnification that makes your reticle “true.” IE sometimes you don’t want to shoot on 10 or Max power.
So this is kind of on topic but you asked about regrets on a FFP or SFP. The only time I have ever said wow why is this in FFP?! My Schmidt Short Dot. It is ffp with moa adjustments and a mil reticle… but it does have a very accurate BDC suggestion (and I’ve just marked my holds) however, with 1-4 or 1-6 optics I generally say you shoot on 1 power or on max power. So to me SFP keeps the cost down and makes more sense in my opinion. (Though the shortdot is still my favorite of all my low magnified optics. The reticle is perfect once you mark your turret). Here’s where SFP shines… Steiner made a 1-4 SFP mil/mil. I picked one up and man its aimpoint bright on 1 and crank it to 4 power your holds work. Turrets do not lock but they are stiff. Very positive clicks and the BDC reticle (which holds only work on 4 power) is spot on and if it isn’t you have 13.9mils of adjustment that you can mark. Anyway sorry if this is off topic but just wanted to show an example of when SFP does better than FFP |
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Quoted:
I'm hoping to soon pick up an LMT 308. This will be for bench shooting, mostly at 100-200 yds. I wanted a little more magnification (12-15) to be able to shoot the tone groups the rifle is capable of. Although most of my shooting will be around 200 yards, I will probably get out to a longer rifle range a few times a year. I like a nice eye box and wanted a good tactical reticle. The Leupy mark 4, 4.5-14x50 LR w/ TMR seems to fit the bill. But it's second focal plane, only the Extended Range (ER) scopes which are a few hundred dollars more. Most of the time The scope will be between 10 and 14x, do I really need a FFP? For what you intend to do, you can get by without FFP. In fact, for what you want to do with the gun, I'd get a fixed 10x or 12x scope and then FFP vs SFP ceases to be an issue at all. |
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For what you intend to do, you can get by without FFP. In fact, for what you want to do with the gun, I'd get a fixed 10x or 12x scope and then FFP vs SFP ceases to be an issue at all. Quoted:
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I'm hoping to soon pick up an LMT 308. This will be for bench shooting, mostly at 100-200 yds. I wanted a little more magnification (12-15) to be able to shoot the tone groups the rifle is capable of. Although most of my shooting will be around 200 yards, I will probably get out to a longer rifle range a few times a year. I like a nice eye box and wanted a good tactical reticle. The Leupy mark 4, 4.5-14x50 LR w/ TMR seems to fit the bill. But it's second focal plane, only the Extended Range (ER) scopes which are a few hundred dollars more. Most of the time The scope will be between 10 and 14x, do I really need a FFP? For what you intend to do, you can get by without FFP. In fact, for what you want to do with the gun, I'd get a fixed 10x or 12x scope and then FFP vs SFP ceases to be an issue at all. good point |
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For what you intend to do, you can get by without FFP. In fact, for what you want to do with the gun, I'd get a fixed 10x or 12x scope and then FFP vs SFP ceases to be an issue at all. Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm hoping to soon pick up an LMT 308. This will be for bench shooting, mostly at 100-200 yds. I wanted a little more magnification (12-15) to be able to shoot the tone groups the rifle is capable of. Although most of my shooting will be around 200 yards, I will probably get out to a longer rifle range a few times a year. I like a nice eye box and wanted a good tactical reticle. The Leupy mark 4, 4.5-14x50 LR w/ TMR seems to fit the bill. But it's second focal plane, only the Extended Range (ER) scopes which are a few hundred dollars more. Most of the time The scope will be between 10 and 14x, do I really need a FFP? For what you intend to do, you can get by without FFP. In fact, for what you want to do with the gun, I'd get a fixed 10x or 12x scope and then FFP vs SFP ceases to be an issue at all. I bought a fixed power 17x scope from US Optics for one of my long range rifles. I like that I don't need to muck with the magnification. Very simple. Field of view has not been an issue for me. I used SFP scopes for years but turned them over into FFP and fixed power. |
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I heard the OP say he shot known distances. The WHOLE POINT of a FFP scope (as far as I know, but I would be eager to learn something new) is to better use a RANGE FINDING AND DROP ESTIMATING (Tactical) RETICLE. I know the OP said he wanted a Tactical reticle, but I can't for the life of me figure out why. Learn your come-ups and dial in your dope for your known distance. The whole point of FFP is having a calibrated ruler in front of you that works @ any magnification and match's your adjustments. misses are easily accounted for. Wind is easy to hold for. etc. No math... Ranging is for LRF's |
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LOL. This is the equivalent to say "BDC works great". It MIGHT work ok for your uses, but for actual precision shooting it does not. What "works" for some people might be an issue for others. If you have shitty skills (or want to progress no further in development of those skills) then lesser gear "works" fine. Gear is not Skills, but you should attempt to make them match. That dial and multiply method is a joke imo. Saying you can dial the scope to an arbitrary point will place it on a different arbitrary magnification, despite what the tube marking shows then applying an absolute to try and cover two arbitrary relatives is NOT how precision shooting works. It's a work-around that might be acceptable at shorter ranges and/or larger targets. If you get to that point, just dial and hold center! No, you don't need FFP, just like you don't need match quality ammo, just like you don't need a sub-MOA rifle, just like you don't need trigger time, just like you don't need proper form and consistency when behind a precision rifle. You CAN shoot without all of those things. Yes, do you WANT FFP, and if you're even remotely serious about making hits vs feeding the berm, you should get a hold off to get a FFP scope with a decent milling reticle. In fact, I'd say get FFP before a zoom past 10x, before illumination, before zero stop, before parallax adjustment, before MIL vs MOA, before a cost or weight you want to be in, because all of those features are important but not until you can reliably use your reticle. I'll go one step further even... SFP < Fixed Power < FFP That said, no at 200y it won't matter greatly. But A. Don't cheap out on glass. B. Don't buy just for today. Get the good gear and it might not hold you up, get the second rate gear and it definitely will. As for the Mk4, they aren't bad, but they are obsolete. Get a mid-range Vortex PST over a Mk4. In that price range, I'd also recommend a couple Burris and Bushnell parts. If you aren't shooting anything but groups on a static range in a sitting or prone position, I wouldn't use the reticle for holds at all. Quoted:
Quoted:You can still use the reticle scale at the proper magnification.
LOL. This is the equivalent to say "BDC works great". It MIGHT work ok for your uses, but for actual precision shooting it does not. What "works" for some people might be an issue for others. If you have shitty skills (or want to progress no further in development of those skills) then lesser gear "works" fine. Gear is not Skills, but you should attempt to make them match. That dial and multiply method is a joke imo. Saying you can dial the scope to an arbitrary point will place it on a different arbitrary magnification, despite what the tube marking shows then applying an absolute to try and cover two arbitrary relatives is NOT how precision shooting works. It's a work-around that might be acceptable at shorter ranges and/or larger targets. If you get to that point, just dial and hold center! No, you don't need FFP, just like you don't need match quality ammo, just like you don't need a sub-MOA rifle, just like you don't need trigger time, just like you don't need proper form and consistency when behind a precision rifle. You CAN shoot without all of those things. Yes, do you WANT FFP, and if you're even remotely serious about making hits vs feeding the berm, you should get a hold off to get a FFP scope with a decent milling reticle. In fact, I'd say get FFP before a zoom past 10x, before illumination, before zero stop, before parallax adjustment, before MIL vs MOA, before a cost or weight you want to be in, because all of those features are important but not until you can reliably use your reticle. I'll go one step further even... SFP < Fixed Power < FFP That said, no at 200y it won't matter greatly. But A. Don't cheap out on glass. B. Don't buy just for today. Get the good gear and it might not hold you up, get the second rate gear and it definitely will. As for the Mk4, they aren't bad, but they are obsolete. Get a mid-range Vortex PST over a Mk4. In that price range, I'd also recommend a couple Burris and Bushnell parts. If you aren't shooting anything but groups on a static range in a sitting or prone position, I wouldn't use the reticle for holds at all. LOL...whew! I'm too tired to shoot after all that. Proper answer for the OP, no you don't need FFP for bench/target shooting. |