Posted: 2/28/2019 10:16:34 PM EDT
| In terms of out-of-the-box precision rifles, I've long been aware that high-end precision rifles like Accuracy International and Sako TRG are extremely accurate sub 1/2 MOA rifles. I've been hearing that Surgeon rifles are built to the same level of quality and accuracy. Is this correct? |
| I love Surgeon, they do an excellent job. I wouldn't say in my exp. they are more accurate than an AI rifle esp. when the AI is equipped with a custom BBL. If I was building a rifle that I didnt need a switch BBL capability, I would use a Surgeon action. A custom build either from Surgeon or by another good smith using a Surgeon action will shoot, but for what its worth Todd Hodnett (who is a big Surgeon fan) has said there has never been a better access to great precision rifles right off the shelf. At Shot Show he said he has seen several factory Savages and Tikkas shoot as well or better then the high dollar customs. I think the custom route is best when you want a rifle with options that are not available off the shelf. |
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Surgeon rifles are washed up and a far cry from what they once were. None of the people from the original Surgeon are still there and have all moved on to better things. Surgeon wouldn't even be on my radar for an action and not a chance in hell I'd want any machine work done by them. Surgeon was never really an out of the box rifle. They had an action and built guns like other shops did. I'd take an AI over a surgeon for sure. If you want a top tier rifle there are much better choices available these days. |
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Yeah, the newer Surgeon rifles aren’t the same as the older ones. Someone I know who has owned several had lots of complaints about his last one. He’s switched over to Defiance and Impact and doesn’t recommend the Surgeons anymore.
I’d go with an Impact with one of their Stutteville barrels or an AI over a Surgeon everyday based on current reports, and I’d go with the Impact over the AI just because I’m not a huge fan of the force required to manipulate the bolt of the AI’s I’ve ran. |
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Interesting...!!!
So it sounds like Surgeon is a really good rifle, but may not be quite as good as they used to be. I'm finally ready to start shooting out to 1k+ and have decided on buying a really accurate 24" barrel .300 WM rifle this coming summer and am willing to spend $4k - $5k without the scope. In reading some articles in the link below, it sounds like the best rifles are custom built using the best components out there and having them built by a reputable gun smith, but I really prefer to buy a complete rifle. I guess I have some thinking to do. Thanks for the opinions. https://precisionrifleblog.com/category/what-the-pros-use/ |
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Interesting...!!! So it sounds like Surgeon is a really good rifle, but may not be quite as good as they used to be. I'm finally ready to start shooting out to 1k+ and have decided on buying a really accurate 24" barrel .300 WM rifle this coming summer and am willing to spend $4k - $5k without the scope. In reading some articles in the link below, it sounds like the best rifles are custom built using the best components out there and having them built by a reputable gun smith, but I really prefer to buy a complete rifle. I guess I have some thinking to do. Thanks for the opinions. https://precisionrifleblog.com/category/what-the-pros-use/ Some advice? Do not buy a 300WM as your first long range rifle. Way too many do this and find the errors in the thought process after the fact. Buy a good short action caliber like the 6.5 Creedmoor and go shoot it. Learn long range with limited recoil but good ballistics. You do not want the recoil and cost associated with a magnum. But if you trudge forward with a magnum then get at least a 26" barrel and I would recommend a 28". You want to get all the velcoity you can from it. |
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Quoted:
Interesting...!!! So it sounds like Surgeon is a really good rifle, but may not be quite as good as they used to be. I'm finally ready to start shooting out to 1k+ and have decided on buying a really accurate 24" barrel .300 WM rifle this coming summer and am willing to spend $4k - $5k without the scope. In reading some articles in the link below, it sounds like the best rifles are custom built using the best components out there and having them built by a reputable gun smith, but I really prefer to buy a complete rifle. I guess I have some thinking to do. Thanks for the opinions. https://precisionrifleblog.com/category/what-the-pros-use/ |
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I have a rifle built off a Surgeon action and it's a great rifle but never had a Surgeon built. Surgeon has had a bunch of changes over the years. I don't think I would buy a rifle direct from them. Actions are good but so are Defiance and others. Some advice? Do not buy a 300WM as your first long range rifle. Way too many do this and find the errors in the thought process after the fact. Buy a good short action caliber like the 6.5 Creedmoor and go shoot it. Learn long range with limited recoil but good ballistics. You do not want the recoil and cost associated with a magnum. But if you trudge forward with a magnum then get at least a 26" barrel and I would recommend a 28". You want to get all the velcoity you can from it. |
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Quoted: Thanks for the caliber and barrel length advice. Considering that I've got significant experience shooting a .308 and have a little time shooting a friends 7mm and .300WM, I'm pretty confident about getting a .300WM myself. I really only want to buy one long-range rifle. Regarding barrel length, I know a 26" is probably ideal, and I may get one, it's just that I intend to suppress it and don't want a mile long rifle. I'm actually on the fence. A 24" would be fine for 190g, but a 26" would be better for 220g, which I may decide to use, as I'd like to work my way up to 1500m. |
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Quoted: Thanks for the caliber and barrel length advice. Considering that I've got significant experience shooting a .308 and have a little time shooting a friends 7mm and .300WM, I'm pretty confident about getting a .300WM myself. I really only want to buy one long-range rifle. Regarding barrel length, I know a 26" is probably ideal, and I may get one, it's just that I intend to suppress it and don't want a mile long rifle. I'm actually on the fence. A 24" would be fine for 190g, but a 26" would be better for 220g, which I may decide to use, as I'd like to work my way up to 1500m. |
| It seems everyone makes the same mistake when getting into LR. You get introduced to the sport by someone, then you want to replicate their setup. A 300WM is not necessary, nor practical, to learn precision shooting on. The added recoil makes additional obstacles to overcome when learning to shoot. It also adds unnecessary expenses to an already expensive sport. We’re just trying to help you out from experience that ourselves, as well as many friends, have learned over the years. |
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It seems everyone makes the same mistake when getting into LR. You get introduced to the sport by someone, then you want to replicate their setup. A 300WM is not necessary, nor practical, to learn precision shooting on. The added recoil makes additional obstacles to overcome when learning to shoot. It also adds unnecessary expenses to an already expensive sport. We’re just trying to help you out from experience that ourselves, as well as many friends, have learned over the years. I think 300WM is an awesome caliber, but I wouldn't touch one except for game hunting for larger animals. And to me it seems when you use a 300WM platform for long range precision, it's going to get heavy if you're really trying to wring out all the potential of that caliber. That's not to say you can't target shoot any 300WM rifle if you so desire, but the right/wrong tool for the job may be at play. But as I always believe, people who aren't seriously competing at precision shooting can use whatever they want. |
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There is a minute difference between the performance of a $5000 rifle and a $1500 rifle. I can overcome any quality difference with attention to detail on loading. There is zero lost starting with a tikka, bergara, RPR, etc and moving on. In the process you'll learn what you really want and a fancy cookie cutter factory rifle will likely prove unsuitable for you. In the past 2-3 years the consensus answer on what the best action is has changed at least 5 times. |
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There is a minute difference between the performance of a $5000 rifle and a $1500 rifle. I can overcome any quality difference with attention to detail on loading. There is zero lost starting with a tikka, bergara, RPR, etc and moving on. In the process you'll learn what you really want and a fancy cookie cutter factory rifle will likely prove unsuitable for you. In the past 2-3 years the consensus answer on what the best action is has changed at least 5 times. If you’re starting out I’m going to recommend a Bergara, tikka, or Remington. Because you’ll develop/build it into what you need. If you’re more seasoned I’ll recommend you have a gun built buy a really good smith who specializes in such things. If you’re experienced and want to punch small holes or hit steel at distance for fun or want a gun to be proud of I’ll recommend GAP, SAC, Surgeon or TacOps. Every time I turn the bolt on my Surgeon, I smile. I don’t smile when I turn the bolt on my factory-ish actions. I post this because I’ve been down all the roads. One specific gun or “brand” doesn’t do all the above. Cheap, fun, tinker, hunt= Bergara or Remington Competition= custom built or purpose built Really nice very accurate= GAP, Surgeon ETC ETC |
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Quoted: While I agree with you to a point. If you're starting out I'm going to recommend a Bergara, tikka, or Remington. Because you'll develop/build it into what you need. If you're more seasoned I'll recommend you have a gun built buy a really good smith who specializes in such things. If you're experienced and want to punch small holes or hit steel at distance for fun or want a gun to be proud of I'll recommend GAP, SAC, Surgeon or TacOps. Every time I turn the bolt on my Surgeon, I smile. I don't smile when I turn the bolt on my factory-ish actions. I post this because I've been down all the roads. One specific gun or "brand" doesn't do all the above. Cheap, fun, tinker, hunt= Bergara or Remington Competition= custom built or purpose built Really nice very accurate= GAP, Surgeon ETC ETC |
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Surgeon rifles are washed up and a far cry from what they once were. None of the people from the original Surgeon are still there and have all moved on to better things. Surgeon wouldn't even be on my radar for an action and not a chance in hell I'd want any machine work done by them. Surgeon was never really an out of the box rifle. They had an action and built guns like other shops did. I'd take an AI over a surgeon for sure. If you want a top tier rifle there are much better choices available these days. |
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Again, Surgeon does not deserve to be in that list. They are not the company they once were. There many many other shops that build better better rifles than they do, and anymore there isn't even a reason to get one of their actions. There are just better choices all round. |
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With due respect to all the comp shooters OP, if you want a magnum rifle, get a magnum rifle...what matters is you are happy with the rifle....You have to understand the disadvantage they have, they will wear the barrel faster, they cost more ammo wise, weather buying ammo or reloading, they can recoil more, meaning heavier rifles and muzzle brakes/cans..But they are also a joy to shoot and will put a huge grin on your face...
Now in 30 cal bullets for long range, the 230/215 Bergers, the 208 amax, maybe the new 230/250 Hornady A-tip's or the eld's all will work for long range use.. As for calibers... you have 30 prc, 30norma, 30 wsm, 30 saum, 300 wm, 300 Weatherby, 300 rum and 30-378 Weatherby as the main calibers unless you go to a wildcat round...Everybody Wants the newest coolest gadget and thats all fine and everything until it comes time to buy brass for it, which sucks when only 1 maker produces brass for your new widget cartridge..Pick caliber/case carefully... As for builders, many have been listed, I would include one builder you may not have considered..that is MPA(master piece arms)..from one off custom, to a package rifle, to a you pick every piece you want no matter how wild to you send in your used action and get back a custom rifle...they build very nice stuff... I went the opposite route, I sent my old wore out 700 straight to bartein barrels, they squared the action, built a new barrel put it all together and sent me a ready to shoot barreled action that I dropped into an MPA chassis.. I shoot a 300 rum loaded with a 230 Berger Target hybrid @ 3220 fps...Absolutely love it and even at alaskan prices it runs just over a buck a round for my hand loads...And it will dominate all of the 30prc/norma/wm loads 
Attached File |
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With due respect to all the comp shooters OP, if you want a magnum rifle, get a magnum rifle...what matters is you are happy with the rifle....You have to understand the disadvantage they have, they will wear the barrel faster, they cost more ammo wise, weather buying ammo or reloading, they can recoil more, meaning heavier rifles and muzzle brakes/cans..But they are also a joy to shoot and will put a huge grin on your face... Now in 30 cal bullets for long range, the 230/215 Bergers, the 208 amax, maybe the new 230/250 Hornady A-tip's or the eld's all will work for long range use.. As for calibers... you have 30 prc, 30norma, 30 wsm, 30 saum, 300 wm, 300 Weatherby, 300 rum and 30-378 Weatherby as the main calibers unless you go to a wildcat round...Everybody Wants the newest coolest gadget and thats all fine and everything until it comes time to buy brass for it, which sucks when only 1 maker produces brass for your new widget cartridge..Pick caliber/case carefully... As for builders, many have been listed, I would include one builder you may not have considered..that is MPA(master piece arms)..from one off custom, to a package rifle, to a you pick every piece you want no matter how wild to you send in your used action and get back a custom rifle...they build very nice stuff... I went the opposite route, I sent my old wore out 700 straight to bartein barrels, they squared the action, built a new barrel put it all together and sent me a ready to shoot barreled action that I dropped into an MPA chassis.. I shoot a 300 rum loaded with a 230 Berger Target hybrid @ 3220 fps...Absolutely love it and even at alaskan prices it runs just over a buck a round for my hand loads...And it will dominate all of the 30prc/norma/wm loads
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/404934/islAiavmSgCr8C42eBhDIw_jpg-1022163.JPG |
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Nothing to do with "Comp" shooting but being able to learn long range shooting. Seen far to many people think they need a magnum and get one as their first rifle and quickly lose interest due to cost and recoil mostly. I don't give a rats ass what he gets but I want him to think long and hard about what he needs and what he is spending his money on. Quoted:
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With due respect to all the comp shooters OP, if you want a magnum rifle, get a magnum rifle...what matters is you are happy with the rifle....You have to understand the disadvantage they have, they will wear the barrel faster, they cost more ammo wise, weather buying ammo or reloading, they can recoil more, meaning heavier rifles and muzzle brakes/cans..But they are also a joy to shoot and will put a huge grin on your face... Now in 30 cal bullets for long range, the 230/215 Bergers, the 208 amax, maybe the new 230/250 Hornady A-tip's or the eld's all will work for long range use.. As for calibers... you have 30 prc, 30norma, 30 wsm, 30 saum, 300 wm, 300 Weatherby, 300 rum and 30-378 Weatherby as the main calibers unless you go to a wildcat round...Everybody Wants the newest coolest gadget and thats all fine and everything until it comes time to buy brass for it, which sucks when only 1 maker produces brass for your new widget cartridge..Pick caliber/case carefully... As for builders, many have been listed, I would include one builder you may not have considered..that is MPA(master piece arms)..from one off custom, to a package rifle, to a you pick every piece you want no matter how wild to you send in your used action and get back a custom rifle...they build very nice stuff... I went the opposite route, I sent my old wore out 700 straight to bartein barrels, they squared the action, built a new barrel put it all together and sent me a ready to shoot barreled action that I dropped into an MPA chassis.. I shoot a 300 rum loaded with a 230 Berger Target hybrid @ 3220 fps...Absolutely love it and even at alaskan prices it runs just over a buck a round for my hand loads...And it will dominate all of the 30prc/norma/wm loads
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/404934/islAiavmSgCr8C42eBhDIw_jpg-1022163.JPG |
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I'd have to agree. I'd stay away from anything 'magnum' if you're planning to put enough rounds down range to actually learn long range shooting. Quoted:
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With due respect to all the comp shooters OP, if you want a magnum rifle, get a magnum rifle...what matters is you are happy with the rifle....You have to understand the disadvantage they have, they will wear the barrel faster, they cost more ammo wise, weather buying ammo or reloading, they can recoil more, meaning heavier rifles and muzzle brakes/cans..But they are also a joy to shoot and will put a huge grin on your face... Now in 30 cal bullets for long range, the 230/215 Bergers, the 208 amax, maybe the new 230/250 Hornady A-tip's or the eld's all will work for long range use.. As for calibers... you have 30 prc, 30norma, 30 wsm, 30 saum, 300 wm, 300 Weatherby, 300 rum and 30-378 Weatherby as the main calibers unless you go to a wildcat round...Everybody Wants the newest coolest gadget and thats all fine and everything until it comes time to buy brass for it, which sucks when only 1 maker produces brass for your new widget cartridge..Pick caliber/case carefully... As for builders, many have been listed, I would include one builder you may not have considered..that is MPA(master piece arms)..from one off custom, to a package rifle, to a you pick every piece you want no matter how wild to you send in your used action and get back a custom rifle...they build very nice stuff... I went the opposite route, I sent my old wore out 700 straight to bartein barrels, they squared the action, built a new barrel put it all together and sent me a ready to shoot barreled action that I dropped into an MPA chassis.. I shoot a 300 rum loaded with a 230 Berger Target hybrid @ 3220 fps...Absolutely love it and even at alaskan prices it runs just over a buck a round for my hand loads...And it will dominate all of the 30prc/norma/wm loads
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/404934/islAiavmSgCr8C42eBhDIw_jpg-1022163.JPG 
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I have Surgeon action built with a Bartlett barrel in 260 rem. GAP built it (the smith who used a crescent moon symbol on his builds) 1K is no problem. It is about 12 years old though so it was before the sale. Sounds like a great product got messed up when sold to an owner who didn't really care... sad...
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I have Surgeon action built with a Bartlett barrel in 260 rem. GAP built it (the smith who used a crescent moon symbol on his builds) 1K is no problem. It is about 12 years old though so it was before the sale. Sounds like a great product got messed up when sold to an owner who didn't really care... sad... https://www.crescentcustoms.com/ |
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OP, you have been told by many what caliber you want. Obviously we only have a limited idea of what you need. With that being said, the primary advantage I would say of an AI rifle over a custom or one off custom build would be the ability to change barrels and calibers on the fly. Buy the AI in .300 WM and if you so desire, get the conversion kit and shoot 6.5 CM. You are not going to see much of a difference in performance from an AI to custom rifle. They both should shoot sub 1/2. For me the ability to change calibers outweighs any advantage I can see for getting a custom. Being able to learn on and get competent on one platform but in a host of caliber options and still expect the same level of performance I would see from a custom makes me choose a rifle like an AI every time.
In regards to the Surgeon rifles. I tend to agree with some of the other posters. I have a friend with an older Surgeon and it shoots some of the most ridiculous groups I have ever seen. But the newer products since they were purchased by SAC seem to not be to the same level. |
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OP, you have been told by many what caliber you want. Obviously we only have a limited idea of what you need. With that being said, the primary advantage I would say of an AI rifle over a custom or one off custom build would be the ability to change barrels and calibers on the fly. Buy the AI in .300 WM and if you so desire, get the conversion kit and shoot 6.5 CM. You are not going to see much of a difference in performance from an AI to custom rifle. They both should shoot sub 1/2. For me the ability to change calibers outweighs any advantage I can see for getting a custom. Being able to learn on and get competent on one platform but in a host of caliber options and still expect the same level of performance I would see from a custom makes me choose a rifle like an AI every time. In regards to the Surgeon rifles. I tend to agree with some of the other posters. I have a friend with an older Surgeon and it shoots some of the most ridiculous groups I have ever seen. But the newer products since they were purchased by SAC seem to not be to the same level. |