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Posted: 11/19/2023 4:07:02 PM EDT
I want a mid weight AR15 build with a precision cast to it, that can be be field carried for black bear, caribou, or Sitka deer. It’s been years since I’ve shot from a bench with a rifle, and my buddy put a bug in my ear about getting back into it.
I’m thinking about about either doing a 18-20” 556, or a Grendel with a Faxon 20” fluted match barrel. Might do a 20” 6mm ARC with the same Faxon barrel. I’m setup for hand loading for any cal, and I’ve got tons of leftover Grendel brass and bullets from old uppers that have since moved on. Same with 556. Local stores have Grendel and ARC ammo. As far as scopes, not sure what to get. The NF 4-16x42 with h59 ATACR is on sale right now for $2200 through Eurooptic. Might do a Trijicon/Leupold scope as well. What would you do? |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 11/19/2023 5:51:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: hiih8r]
[#1]
I certainly wouldn’t buy a Faxon barrel if you want a precision rifle.
If you want a 6ARC just order a Seekins DMR 18”. You can’t come close to building the same quality rifle for what you can get them for and if there’s an issue they’ll stand behind it. 4-16 ATACR or 3.6-18 MK5 are perfect DMR optics. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 11/19/2023 6:13:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Millennial]
[#2]
A LaRue barrel would be nice for something like this. I'm pretty sure they make 6.5G barrels in addition to 5.56mm. Tough enough for general purpose shooting and will be MOA all day capable in a good build. Great Barrels. Criterion also makes great barrels for accuracy and come nitrided for toughness. Could have Craddock make you up a barrel from any number of blanks and nitride it.
Optic really depends on ideal range and lighting conditions. LPVOs are nice for hunting heavier brush and woods. Light transmission suffers as there's only so much you can do with a 20-24mm objective. Anything over 6X is going to start to get dim. Trijicon and Leupold and NF make fantastic LPVOs that are on the lighter weight side. VRazors are of course great... but heavy. I think if you don't need 1X, a 2-10x or 2-12x is about is perfect. Trijicon has the 2.5-10x56 credos and accupoints with that HUGE objective that they can see well before & after first/last light for hunting... excellent light gathering. They're discontinued nowadays, but the original Razor HD LH lineup (1.5-8x, 2-10, 3-15x) had excellent glass, good hunting reticles, and were featherweight... definitely worth looking into used forums for and with that lifetime warranty good to go. The second generation razor LHTs are a bit more tactical and long-range oriented. Leupold VX6HD and MK5/MK6 series scopes are nice and light with great glass; I love my VX-6HD 2-12x42 Impact-29 for this exact hunting/bench role. I tend to favor lightweight on something that going to be carried around (if you hadn't noticed, LOL). NF scopes are generally light for what they are, too. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 11/19/2023 6:33:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Millennial]
[#3]
This is a nice lightweight buy from eurooptic
https://www.eurooptic.com/Leupold-Mark-5HD-3-6-18x44mm-35mm-M5C3-FFP-PR1-MIL-Like-New-Demo-Riflescope-180726.aspx 22oz ... probably not a good dual use reticle, but I know they make a 50mm and 44mm 3-18x with other reticles. https://www.eurooptic.com/Leupold-VX-6HD-3-18x50mm-FireDot-Duplex-Like-New-Demo-Scope-171572.aspx |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 11/19/2023 8:02:49 PM EDT
[#4]
Larue uses stupid gas system lengths for their Grendel and ARC barrels.
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Posted: 11/19/2023 9:44:35 PM EDT
[#5]
I think I’m angling towards a mid teen power scope, otherwise I’d go with a LPVO. I’d like to do some longer range shooting with the rifle. The local gun club has metal targets out to 1k yds.
I looked into Seekins rifles, and they’re as ugly as I remember them to be  . As far as Faxon goes, they have a good rep on the Grendel forums, and I had a 12.5” Grendel barrel from them in the past that was, serviceable. I like the idea of 20” heavy fluted profile that weighs only 32oz. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 11/19/2023 11:12:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: hiih8r]
[#6]
The Seekins IRMT3 receiver design is one of the best there is for accuracy.
Faxon is not known in the precision rifle community for producing quality accurate barrels, quite the opposite actually. The fact they have a following on one forum is meaningless, most people wouldn’t know an accurate rifle if you beat them with it. It’s your money though and you seem like your mind is made up. When the lightweight Faxon tomato stake won’t shoot sub MOA on a good day look into Proof SS barrels for an off the shelf option or CLE for a custom option. They both produce great barrels. |
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Posted: 11/20/2023 12:33:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Hoser]
[#7]
Originally Posted By Sticklebackbob: for black bear, caribou, or Sitka deer. For sure, not many calibers that will fit in an AR-15 would I consider for an ethical shot on a bear or Caribou. Maybe something in an AR-10, but those get heavy in a hurry. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 11/20/2023 7:08:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: hiih8r]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hoser: For sure, not many calibers that will fit in an AR-15 would I consider for an ethical shot on a bear or Caribou. Maybe something in an AR-10, but those get heavy in a hurry. Ohh yeah? People are dropping elk, moose, and bear with 223’s beyond 400 yards and there’s autopsy photos of what bullets like the TMK’s do to the vitals. 6mm ARC has more horsepower even further out. |
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Posted: 11/20/2023 10:33:15 AM EDT
[#9]
Have fun out there.
Good luck to you. |
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Posted: 11/20/2023 8:50:09 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hiih8r: I certainly wouldn’t buy a Faxon barrel if you want a precision rifle. I have three: 6.5 CM, .308, 5.56. All get .55-65" at 100 yds.  I like a 2-10x for up to or over slightly past 1000m; 3-15x for up to 1500m. I have really goo eyesight, though. Your needs may vary. |
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Posted: 11/21/2023 9:57:45 AM EDT
[#11]
18" 6mm ARC.
I've been a Ballistic Advantage barrel basher when it comes to their .223 barrels (I've had very bad luck and have returned THREE) but I have their 18" ARC barrel and it's been great, especially for the price point. Ammo and brass is finally available. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 11/21/2023 10:38:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Millennial]
[#12]
Oops Nevermind
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Posted: 11/21/2023 8:01:11 PM EDT
[#13]
I would look closely at either the Grendel or the Arc. I would lean a little bit on the Grendel side of things for the 123 class bullets.
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Posted: 11/22/2023 1:20:03 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hoser: For sure, not many calibers that will fit in an AR-15 would I consider for an ethical shot on a bear or Caribou. Maybe something in an AR-10, but those get heavy in a hurry. I'm with you in this. Grew up in SE AK myself and the smallest we ever shot a deer with was .243 Winchester, but with the modern bullets and calibers, I'd be very happy with 6mm ARC. Bear and Caribou are another thing altogether, though. Up close at basically bad-breath distance, okay, but beyond that, I'd want a little more weight behind my shots. I took a Mule deer in Montana with a Savage MAR-10 Hunter in 6.5 Creedmoor. Not the lightest of rifles, but I get AR308 power, mag compatibility and the same user interface. If I had not gotten such an amazing deal on this rifle, I would have purchased a POF Rogue in 6.5 Creedmoor. You would get the horsepower of either a .308 or said 6.5 Creedmoor all in the size and weight of an AR15. The other option would be to get a Ruger SFAR. Same advantages of the big bore AR308, but in an AR15 package and it's noticeably less expensive than the POF. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 11/22/2023 4:09:03 PM EDT
[#15]
Until Ruger makes a 6.5 CM SFAR I would stay with an AR10 in 6.5 CM. It's going to be heavy but hunting and long range shooting usually are two different guns.
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Posted: 11/22/2023 10:45:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Sticklebackbob]
[#16]
Black bear on the Kenai Peninsula are usually very small, due to heavy predation from our brownies. Small and fast ones survive. I talked with a state biologist who took a sample from one of my bears, and he said the average he sees was a skull width of 16.5-17”. So maybe around 200lbs.
Caribou are very lightly built, especially the meat caribou I go after. I don’t chase the big ones. Just whatever pops out that’s closest to transportation I’d have no ethical issues shooting a blk bear or caribou with a Grendel/6mm arc with a heavy for cal bonded or copper bullet. 556 would produce hesitation. |
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NM, USA
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Posted: 11/23/2023 8:33:35 PM EDT
[#17]
POF Rogue Prescott 6.5 Creedmoor.
7 lbs, 20" bbl, and AR 15 size. No Grendel or ARC can come close. |
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Posted: 11/23/2023 11:15:47 PM EDT
[#18]
Still an AR-10 sized upper/lower through.
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NM, USA
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Posted: 11/24/2023 12:57:33 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hoser: Still an AR-10 sized upper/lower through. Which one? |
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Posted: 11/25/2023 9:10:54 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hiih8r: Ohh yeah? People are dropping elk, moose, and bear with 223’s beyond 400 yards and there’s autopsy photos of what bullets like the TMK’s do to the vitals. 6mm ARC has more horsepower even further out. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hiih8r: Originally Posted By Hoser: For sure, not many calibers that will fit in an AR-15 would I consider for an ethical shot on a bear or Caribou. Maybe something in an AR-10, but those get heavy in a hurry. Ohh yeah? People are dropping elk, moose, and bear with 223’s beyond 400 yards and there’s autopsy photos of what bullets like the TMK’s do to the vitals. 6mm ARC has more horsepower even further out. How many pics of wounded animals never recovered? |
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NM, USA
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Posted: 11/25/2023 10:50:48 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hoser: Still an AR-10 sized upper/lower through. The POF Rogue? Hardly. They are truly AR 15 size receivers, BCGs, charging handles, etc. The only OAL length increase is the buffer tube, and that can be changed. The Ruger SFAR follows the same pattern and is less expensive, but with more weight and fewer options. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 11/25/2023 11:34:20 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03RN: How many pics of wounded animals never recovered? How many animals have been wounded with magnums and never recovered? I used to cull deer on bean fields and shot a lot of them with 223’s, often varmint bullets and have seen how well they work first hand. You can see from the autopsy photos in that thread how well a 223 with the right bullet works on large game. It’s pretty clear that if you wound an animal it’s 100% on you making a piss poor shot. So to answer your question, I’d say there’s approximately as many animals that have been wounded by 223’s and not recovered as there are hunters who have used them and made piss poor shots. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 12:30:58 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hiih8r: How many animals have been wounded with magnums and never recovered? I used to cull deer on bean fields and shot a lot of them with 223’s, often varmint bullets and have seen how well they work first hand. You can see from the autopsy photos in that thread how well a 223 with the right bullet works on large game. It’s pretty clear that if you wound an animal it’s 100% on you making a piss poor shot. So to answer your question, I’d say there’s approximately as many animals that have been wounded by 223’s and not recovered as there are hunters who have used them and made piss poor shots. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hiih8r: Originally Posted By 03RN: How many pics of wounded animals never recovered? How many animals have been wounded with magnums and never recovered? I used to cull deer on bean fields and shot a lot of them with 223’s, often varmint bullets and have seen how well they work first hand. You can see from the autopsy photos in that thread how well a 223 with the right bullet works on large game. It’s pretty clear that if you wound an animal it’s 100% on you making a piss poor shot. So to answer your question, I’d say there’s approximately as many animals that have been wounded by 223’s and not recovered as there are hunters who have used them and made piss poor shots. Probably a lot. But that has more to do with poor shot placement. I too also have culled several dozen deer on a nursery several over 200lbs with a 556. Even with very good shot placement the bullet doesn't always perform like I'd like it too. I never lost one but only found a few that was close due to snow. But... I was out this morning deer hunting with 77gr tmk due to science  Attached File |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 12:45:32 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By badkarmaiii: The POF Rogue? Hardly. They are truly AR 15 size receivers, BCGs, charging handles, etc. The only OAL length increase is the buffer tube, and that can be changed. The Ruger SFAR follows the same pattern and is less expensive, but with more weight and fewer options. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 12:49:22 PM EDT
[#25]
Ruger SFAR in 6.5 (Creedmore or .260 Remington).
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NM, USA
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Posted: 11/26/2023 4:56:58 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hoser: I am not understanding how they can fit a 6.5 Creedmore case in a 223 magazine/mag well. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hoser: Originally Posted By badkarmaiii: The POF Rogue? Hardly. They are truly AR 15 size receivers, BCGs, charging handles, etc. The only OAL length increase is the buffer tube, and that can be changed. The Ruger SFAR follows the same pattern and is less expensive, but with more weight and fewer options. They don't. They moved the FCG rearward, allowing a longer mag well in the same length receiver. Pretty revolutionary, which is why the first rifle like this is called the POF Revolution. Following those were the Revolution DIs, Rogues, and Ruger SFARs. Other than the Rugers, they ain't cheap, but are truly revolutionary. |
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Posted: 12/2/2023 1:51:36 AM EDT
[#27]
We used to cull deer on nuisance permits with .22 hornets
It can be done ethically |
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Posted: 12/2/2023 10:36:42 AM EDT
[#28]
I refuse to use glass that doesn't have locking or capped turrets on a hunting rifle. Things happen and a lot of time you only get one shot, I want that peace of mind that my adjustments are in the same place as when I started the hunt.
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Posted: 12/2/2023 1:14:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: onthebreeze]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hiih8r: I certainly wouldn’t buy a Faxon barrel if you want a precision rifle. If you want a 6ARC just order a Seekins DMR 18”. You can’t come close to building the same quality rifle for what you can get them for and if there’s an issue they’ll stand behind it. 4-16 ATACR or 3.6-18 MK5 are perfect DMR optics. Faxon 20", would love to try ARC. 
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Posted: 12/3/2023 9:58:19 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sticklebackbob: Black bear on the Kenai Peninsula are usually very small, due to heavy predation from our brownies. Small and fast ones survive. I talked with a state biologist who took a sample from one of my bears, and he said the average he sees was a skull width of 16.5-17”. So maybe around 200lbs. Caribou are very lightly built, especially the meat caribou I go after. I don’t chase the big ones. Just whatever pops out that’s closest to transportation I’d have no ethical issues shooting a blk bear or caribou with a Grendel/6mm arc with a heavy for cal bonded or copper bullet. 556 would produce hesitation. For where you live I would use two different optics in quick release mounts. After killing a few hundred feral hogs with the 6.5 Grendel that would be my primary choice. I lean towards the 18” barrel length with the Ace stock. The setup seems to withstand the abuse of being carried in the buggy. With the chance of a big bear incident the extra bullet weight might be appreciated. People who have not been around Black Bears forget that they have denser bones than the Caribou or Sitka deer. A 6.5 Grendel loaded with a solid copper 100gr bullet will achieve some impressive penetration compared to a.223. And still give some decent expansion and wound channel. I would also consider a carbon fiber barrel if you plan to hike and camp. As you age weight seems to count more. Good luck! |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 12/3/2023 10:06:48 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By onthebreeze: Faxon 20", would love to try ARC.https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/469539/20231202_111310-3047044.jpg Glad yours shot a single decent group. My experience with Faxon barrels and many others who have posted feedback over the years have not been positive. I’ll stick to barrel makers who have a reputation of putting out quality barrels. Faxon does not have that reputation. |
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Posted: 12/3/2023 1:08:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Sticklebackbob]
[#32]
Im getting my old ar740 Lilja 20” Grendel barrel back from a buddy of mine. Ordered a Geissele trigger and lpk, along with other goodies for a noveske stripped lower I got. I need a rail, scope mount, carrier, and a scope.
Barrel was free, in exchange that I assemble him his ARC build. |
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Posted: 12/4/2023 4:10:48 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sticklebackbob: Im getting my old ar740 Lilja 20” Grendel barrel back from a buddy of mine. Ordered a Geissele trigger and lpk, along with other goodies for a noveske stripped lower I got. I need a rail, scope mount, carrier, and a scope. Barrel was free, in exchange that I assemble him his ARC build. The Grendel is likely one of your best options. A Caribou inside 300 will be dead if shot placement is good. Black bear are not bullet proof so it will work fine in reasonable ranges with proper shot placement. If you need to worry about brown bears you will be carrying something else. |
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MS, USA
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Posted: 12/5/2023 7:01:15 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hiih8r: Ohh yeah? People are dropping elk, moose, and bear with 223’s beyond 400 yards and there’s autopsy photos of what bullets like the TMK’s do to the vitals. 6mm ARC has more horsepower even further out. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hiih8r: Originally Posted By Hoser: For sure, not many calibers that will fit in an AR-15 would I consider for an ethical shot on a bear or Caribou. Maybe something in an AR-10, but those get heavy in a hurry. Ohh yeah? People are dropping elk, moose, and bear with 223’s beyond 400 yards and there’s autopsy photos of what bullets like the TMK’s do to the vitals. 6mm ARC has more horsepower even further out. And, they are showboat idiots, too. That is not ethical hunting. They don't report the maimed and wounded game animals that go off and die a painful death or are crippled. I hunt whitetail deer with ,223 but limit shots to 200 yards. That is even using bonded bullets or my favorite Barnes TSX or TTSX. At 200 yards there is still enough energy for ethical reliable quick kills and errors on shot placement are reduced and wind doping errors unimportant. I would not dream of shooting caribou, elk, black bear with .223. There have been great strides made in terminal ballistics, but as distance increases, so do human errors. Bullet retained energy still matters. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 12/5/2023 8:56:17 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MS556: And, they are showboat idiots, too. That is not ethical hunting. They don't report the maimed and wounded game animals that go off and die a painful death or are crippled. I hunt whitetail deer with ,223 but limit shots to 200 yards. That is even using bonded bullets or my favorite Barnes TSX or TTSX. At 200 yards there is still enough energy for ethical reliable quick kills and errors on shot placement are reduced and wind doping errors unimportant. I would not dream of shooting caribou, elk, black bear with .223. There have been great strides made in terminal ballistics, but as distance increases, so do human errors. Bullet retained energy still matters. First of all, do you know how many animals are wounded with magnums that people take hunting that they can barely shoot because it kicks the shit out of them and they don’t practice with also because it kicks the shit out of them? A LOT. I’ve tracked a lot of deer that idiots have shot in the guts or ass with magnums. Second, you do realize that those TSX’s that are punching through aren’t dumping all of their energy on target, whereas a bullet that’s fragmenting inside and not exiting is dumping all of its energy, right? Nevermind the fact that the 77gr TMK’s that most people are using are carrying more energy and velocity further than TSX’s because of the higher BC. You can read through that thread and look at the autopsy results if you wanted to, the results don’t lie. When you turn vitals into soup shit can’t live, that’s a fact. A properly placed shot is more lethal than a poorly placed one, also a fact. You’re welcome to make yourself believe what you wish, but if that belief is that a 223 can’t be an effective and ethical big game hunting round then you’re wrong. |
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Posted: 12/30/2023 3:59:51 PM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 1/6/2024 1:18:26 PM EDT
[#37]
Wouldn’t bother me to hunt timber with that setup.
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