Whole House Transfer Switches

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Whole House Transfer Switches

Posted: 8/3/2013 4:51:43 AM EDT

I'm having a hell of a time finding manual, whole house transfer switches for a generator setup. I don't want to spend the money on a standby genset, so I'm really wanting the transfer switch and the 30amp receptacle so I can throw down my generator and plug it in and be a happy camper. Here is what has made this search so difficult:

I have a 200 amp service coming in to my house. So I google away with that specification, and they only want to sell me the automatic, power sensing kind for standby generators. I guess that could work, but I thought a manual one could save me a few $$$ because I don't really need the extra features it provides.

I did find a whole house transfer switch, manual, with a 30 amp generator input side but it was only a 100 amp breaker on the service side. Would this be acceptable? I do have an electric range and dryer, but my other power loads would be small (swamp cooler, radiant baseboard heat) so I can't push a pencil to make the house draw more than that 100 amps.

Do they make a 200 amp manual switch and I just don't know about it?

We had the power go out for 12 hours yesterday, a local substation got popped with a direct hit. So I'm upgrading

Posted: 8/3/2013 4:54:24 AM EDT

[#1]

you can probably find just about anything you want. automatic switches are more popular in those larger sizes so they are more readily available and maybe even cost less.

there are breaker interlock kits that are a good choice if you have space in your panel for them.

a 200A service does not equate to a 30A outlet though. that may be why you are not finding anything useful.

I don't know why a 30A TS would have a 100A breaker on it though. maybe some kind of marketing gimmick.

I doubt you really have a 200A service. you might have a 200A panel and a 200A meter, but what the service really amounts to could be just about anything.

Posted: 8/3/2013 5:08:39 AM EDT

[#2]

I can double check on my service, you could be right.

I couldn't get on home depot at work, filter called it a spam site

so now I found this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/100171587?catalogId=10053&N=5yc1v&R=100171587#.Uf0Ae23pwoF

I might be in business

Posted: 8/3/2013 5:17:09 AM EDT

[#3]

Unless you have a whopping big generator, you probably would be better off selecting a few critical circuits to back up. I looked at how much I can run using my 6,000 watt generator and it's not a lot. 6,000 watts / 120 volts = 50 amps MAX. 200 amps X 120 volts = 24,000 watts, and that's only one leg of your 240 volt service. Now, in reality, no one ever runs everything in the house at the same time, so you'd never get to the total service level.

I put in one of these:

It's easy to hook up when needed and easy to operate.

Get a watt meter at Harbor freight and find out how much your important appliances (freezer, fridge, etc.) need and throw in some lights, TV, radio or whatever to see what your minimum requirement is. Here's the one I have. I think it was around $19.99.

Posted: 8/3/2013 5:42:43 AM EDT

[#4]

+1 on generator interlock panel. I have one and it works great to run my entire panel selectively. You just have to be conscious of how many breakers you are running at the same time to not overload your generator.

Posted: 8/3/2013 5:47:18 AM EDT

[#5]

Like a couple of others have said just get one of these

http://www.interlockkit.com/

Posted: 8/3/2013 5:49:12 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
I'm having a hell of a time finding manual, whole house transfer switches for a generator setup.

View Quote

it will be easier, cheaper, and work out just as well to install an interlock on the panel you already have.
below are examples of the square-D OEM interlock; cutler-hammer and others make equivalent, and
there are aftermarket companies that fabricate same for a variety of panels.

hook-up is easy and straightforward.
1) install interlock mechanism to panel face.
2) install backfed breaker (this may require moving some breakers around.
3) wire backfed breaker to generator inlet receptacle. (inlet below is Reliance PB50)
4) done.

ar-jedi

Posted: 8/3/2013 5:55:41 AM EDT

[#7]

Ronk

Posted: 8/3/2013 6:32:58 AM EDT

[#8]

I need to get doing this.

Posted: 8/3/2013 7:05:08 AM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:
+1 on generator interlock panel. I have one and it works great to run my entire panel selectively. You just have to be conscious of how many breakers you are running at the same time to not overload your generator.

View Quote

Definately understand being selective on the breakers.

I'll have to go look at the interlock kit, I have a seriously shitty one off obsolete panel. The only breakers I know that fit it I have to buy online. That's why I was avoiding touching that damn thing.

Are the back feed breakers specialized, or regular breakers just feeding the current in to the panel?

Posted: 8/3/2013 7:21:23 AM EDT

[#10]

My set-up is the same as AR-Jedi has. The 30A breaker I used is just a plain old breaker that uses two 'slots'. Put the Reliance box outside, the interlock inside on the main breaker, and ran a short length of 10 gauge wire.

Posted: 8/3/2013 8:26:13 AM EDT

[#11]

How far can you reasonably run the connecting lines from the generator to the panel?
I am planning on doing the setup like ar-jedi but don't know how long of a run is practical or what gauge of wire.

Edited to add that I have no empty slots in my panel.
Looks like I would have to flip the main breaker and then swap out a 220 with my generator breaker.

Posted: 8/3/2013 7:07:33 PM EDT

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:
Are the back feed breakers specialized, or regular breakers just feeding the current in to the panel?

View Quote

the back-fed breaker is a standard 2-pole/common trip type.
typically you would use 30A (for a ~7.5KW generator) or a 50A (for up to a ~12KW generator).

in general the back fed breaker can be any size, since the generator has an integral breaker to protect the output.
what you must do, however, is size the inlet receptacle and interconnecting wiring for the back-fed breaker.

correct examples:
a) 30A back-fed breaker, 10AWG wiring (e.g., 10-3 w/GND), and a Reliance PB30 inlet (30A rated).
b) 50A back fed breaker, 6AWG wiring (e.g., 6-3 w/GND), and a Reliance PB50 inlet (50A rated).

incorrect example:
c) 50A back-fed breaker, 10AWG wiring, and a Reliance PB50 inlet (50A rated). <-- this is NOT a safe situation. a 50A (12KW generator) could be connected to the 50A inlet; however, the 10AWG wiring is not sufficient to safely carry 50A.

ar-jedi

Posted: 8/3/2013 7:20:28 PM EDT

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:
How far can you reasonably run the connecting lines from the generator to the panel?
I am planning on doing the setup like ar-jedi but don't know how long of a run is practical or what gauge of wire.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:
How far can you reasonably run the connecting lines from the generator to the panel?
I am planning on doing the setup like ar-jedi but don't know how long of a run is practical or what gauge of wire.

the sizing of the inlet interconnection wiring is the same as for any load. in general, for "modest" distances (e.g. up to about 50') you can use 10AWG for 30A, and 6AWG for 50A. for greater distances or different current, consult with a wire ampacity calculator on the 'net. the tradeoff is voltage drop with longer distances.

Quoted:
Edited to add that I have no empty slots in my panel.
Looks like I would have to flip the main breaker and then swap out a 220 with my generator breaker.

if you have no empty slots in your load center, you have two good options:
1) if allowed by your local code and by your load center design, get some "tandem" breakers (2 connections in one slot) and make some room. not all jurisdictions allow tandem breakers, and not all load centers accept tandem breakers. but most jurisdictions and most load centers do.
2) use an external transfer switch, with enough circuits to handle your emergency needs (e.g. fridge, sump pump, etc). really, you probably don't need the whole house to run during an outage. hell, my power was off for 12 days after Sandy and i have a 6 circuit transfer switch. were some things a bit inconvenient? sure. but it was a lot better situation than it could have been with extension cords and the like.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_17/661411_Sandy____12_days_without_power__what_worked__what_didn_t____.html

ar-jedi

Posted: 8/4/2013 5:51:49 AM EDT

[#14]

I personally prefer the 200 amp transfer switch because I like to be able to run any circuit in the house that I want to run (of course within the limited abilities of my generator).

I installed a Cutler Hammer 200 amp transfer switch on my shop building for my future house. I got it at Harbor Freight and it's made in the USA. I think it was about $400 IIRC. They aren't cheap but they allow you to use whatever circuit you want instead of limiting you to certain circuits only.

The interlock kits are a viable option too. For a variety of reasons, I prefer the actual transfer switch but the interlock kit would do the same thing.

Posted: 8/4/2013 7:13:17 AM EDT

[#15]

Quote History

Quoted:

I don't know why a 30A TS would have a 100A breaker on it though. maybe some kind of marketing gimmick.

View Quote

Here are a bunch of manual transfer panels.
http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/power/100-amp-manual-transfer-panels.html

The reason the panel has a 100A breaker is because you wire it as a sub panel off the main panel.
It gets fed from a 100A breaker in the main panel through the 100A transfer breaker in the sub panel.
So the panel is energized via the mains normally.

You re-wire your critical loads and move them to the sub panel.
When the power fails you throw the transfer switch which disconnects the sub panel from the mains and energizes the loads through the 30A or 50A (or whatever) generator side of the transfer breaker.
You manually select the loads to be energized in an emergency by turning the breakers on or off.

This setup has the advantage of using normal breakers and makes changing things, adding loads to the backup side easier.

Instead of using the transfer panels, you can use a standard 100A panel, wire it as a sub panel and install an interlock and back feed breaker.
This option has the same end result and is cheaper.
It's essentially what ar-jedi has but is wired as a separate panel rather than at the main panel.
I had to go this route to free up room in my main panel which was maxed out (all electric home).

Posted: 8/5/2013 4:12:11 AM EDT

[#16]

Quote History

Quoted:

Definately understand being selective on the breakers.

I'll have to go look at the interlock kit, I have a seriously shitty one off obsolete panel. The only breakers I know that fit it I have to buy online. That's why I was avoiding touching that damn thing.

Are the back feed breakers specialized, or regular breakers just feeding the current in to the panel?

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
+1 on generator interlock panel. I have one and it works great to run my entire panel selectively. You just have to be conscious of how many breakers you are running at the same time to not overload your generator.

Definately understand being selective on the breakers.

I'll have to go look at the interlock kit, I have a seriously shitty one off obsolete panel. The only breakers I know that fit it I have to buy online. That's why I was avoiding touching that damn thing.

Are the back feed breakers specialized, or regular breakers just feeding the current in to the panel?

The backfed breakers are the same as any two pole breaker. However, you are required by code (and for good reasons) to use a hold down bracket on it. This is a small extra clip that makes sure it stays secured to the bus. I think it is only required on CBs that snap onto the bus. If yours is secured by screws already, I don't think you need it. But most residential panels are snap on type breakers.

Posted: 8/5/2013 4:54:03 AM EDT

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:
The backfed breakers are the same as any two pole breaker. However, you are required by code (and for good reasons) to use a hold down bracket on it. This is a small extra clip that makes sure it stays secured to the bus. I think it is only required on CBs that snap onto the bus. If yours is secured by screws already, I don't think you need it. But most residential panels are snap on type breakers.

View Quote

^this.

if you look at my pics posted above, you'll see around the backfed breaker (upper right) a silver outline; this is the hold down bracket installed *behind* the load center cover. the hold down bracket is secured via an already-present screw located on the load center.

use EXTREME caution installing such a bracket since if you do not have the meter base pulled the main lugs on the load center are still live. at least in the case of the OEM Square-D interlock kit, the hold down bracket screw is located directly below the main breaker, so the main lugs are just about 1.5 inches away.

ar-jedi

Posted: 8/9/2013 2:35:34 AM EDT

[#18]

Quote History

Quoted:
Ronk

View Quote

Here's your answer for a whole house 200 amp TS.

I have the exact same one as in the picture on the right. It's a 200 amp switch, and it's very heavy and VERY well made. It's spring loaded, and when you throw that red handle on the right, it SLAMS open or closed right NOW. It sounds like a shotgun going off.

http://www.apelectric.com/7205A-Ronk-200A-Manual-Transfer-Switch-240V-p/7205a.htm

Posted: 8/9/2013 2:56:36 AM EDT

[#19]

OST

Posted: 8/9/2013 4:27:47 AM EDT

[#20]

I bought a Cutler Hammer 200amp manual transfer switch from Harbor Freight back in 2004, but I didn't see any listed just now. The transfer switch is the same one LFLS84 talks about here and it does make a hell of a noise when I throw the switch.

I have a 11.5Kw tri-fuel generator in a shed attached to the house with a 50amp interlock hardwired to the transfer switch. When the power goes out I fire up the generator and go inside to throw the transfer switch. The whole house then has power and we can live in comfort

http://nooutage.com/ is an excellent resource and where I bought the smaller things like interlock and cordsets.

Posted: 8/9/2013 5:42:42 AM EDT

[#21]

Here's mine. The plan is, the power runs to the shop building. From there, it will go through the meter, into the generator transfer switch, and then one leg will enter the shop and another leg will go to the house (future house...haven't started it yet). Ignore the tall grass/weeds. I hadn't mowed yet at the time that I took that pic!

I also plan to have a small 120 volt transfer switch at the house panel with the ability to run the refrigerator, deep freeze, TV, and some lights off a small inverter generator running off propane.

There is currently no power running to this building. The shop building is all wired and connected and I've connected my generator to run power to the shop building. But, it's not connected to the grid yet. When it is connected, there will be conduit running to the power transformer and another conduit to run power to the house.

Posted: 8/9/2013 7:00:11 AM EDT

[#22]

We we going to do a interlock block but they did not have one for my panel. A transfer switch was too constrictive for my needs.
My father and I took the same principle and applied it to my panel.

My generator procedure:
A). Turn off main breaker.
B). Turn off all other breakers in the house.
C). Fire up the generator.
D). I have a breaker strictly for the generator, turn that on.
E). Switch which breakers you want to run in the house.It takes a little managing but I can run anything I want (except central air) whenever I want.

To power down the generator and switch to street power reverse the above steps.

It is best if you know the wattage draw of what you have in the house.I bought one of those save a watt kitts from amazon($20). I measured output for everything I run,it was a fun and surprisingly knowledgeable exercise.

Posted: 8/9/2013 7:29:56 AM EDT

[#23]

We just removed a 6 breaker manual transfer switch and went to a whole house interlock (Square D) Square D. Nothing wrong with the transfer switch except that after putting on an addition to the house I would have had to rewire the box. It was cheaper to have the interlock installed. We replaced two 20 amp breakers which ran lights in bedroom and bathroom with mini-breakers to make room for the breaker that the Square D uses.

On a Honda 7500 watt gas generator I can run everything except 1.) Furnace and water pump starting at the same time so I shut off the furnace and use a Quadrafire Mt Vernon AE pellet stor and /2.) the electric water heater because it draws about 4,500 amps, I"ll shut off the hot water then about an hour before I go to bed I'll shut off all the heavy draw breakers and turn on the water heater for an hour then shut it off and turn everything else back on - that gives us fairly hot water for a day.

I thought about going whole house generator but I can't see replacing our 16 year old Honda does a great job - starts up with 2 pulls every time. Got us through 1 week without power after Sandy.

Posted: 8/9/2013 7:48:53 AM EDT

[#24]

Quote History

Quoted:
We just removed a 6 breaker manual transfer switch and went to a whole house interlock (Square D) Square D. Nothing wrong with the transfer switch except that after putting on an addition to the house I would have had to rewire the box. It was cheaper to have the interlock installed. We replaced two 20 amp breakers which ran lights in bedroom and bathroom with mini-breakers to make room for the breaker that the Square D uses.

On a Honda 7500 watt gas generator I can run everything except 1.) Furnace and water pump starting at the same time so I shut off the furnace and use a Quadrafire Mt Vernon AE pellet stor and /2.) the electric water heater because it draws about 4,500 amps, I"ll shut off the hot water then about an hour before I go to bed I'll shut off all the heavy draw breakers and turn on the water heater for an hour then shut it off and turn everything else back on - that gives us fairly hot water for a day.

I thought about going whole house generator but I can't see replacing our 16 year old Honda does a great job - starts up with 2 pulls every time. Got us through 1 week without power after Sandy.

View Quote

Holeee shit!

I think you meant WATTS, here.

Posted: 8/9/2013 7:50:32 AM EDT

[#25]

Quote History

Quoted:
We just removed a 6 breaker manual transfer switch and went to a whole house interlock (Square D) Square D. Nothing wrong with the transfer switch except that after putting on an addition to the house I would have had to rewire the box. It was cheaper to have the interlock installed. We replaced two 20 amp breakers which ran lights in bedroom and bathroom with mini-breakers to make room for the breaker that the Square D uses.

On a Honda 7500 watt gas generator I can run everything except 1.) Furnace and water pump starting at the same time so I shut off the furnace and use a Quadrafire Mt Vernon AE pellet stor and /2.) the electric water heater because it draws about 4,500 amps, I"ll shut off the hot water then about an hour before I go to bed I'll shut off all the heavy draw breakers and turn on the water heater for an hour then shut it off and turn everything else back on - that gives us fairly hot water for a day.

I thought about going whole house generator but I can't see replacing our 16 year old Honda does a great job - starts up with 2 pulls every time. Got us through 1 week without power after Sandy.

View Quote

I hope you meant WATTS!!!!!

Posted: 8/9/2013 8:07:20 AM EDT

[#26]

Quote History

Quoted:
We we going to do a interlock block but they did not have one for my panel. A transfer switch was too constrictive for my needs.
My father and I took the same principle and applied it to my panel.

My generator procedure:
A). Turn off main breaker.
B). Turn off all other breakers in the house.
C). Fire up the generator.
D). I have a breaker strictly for the generator, turn that on.
E). Switch which breakers you want to run in the house.It takes a little managing but I can run anything I want (except central air) whenever I want.

To power down the generator and switch to street power reverse the above steps.

It is best if you know the wattage draw of what you have in the house.I bought one of those save a watt kitts from amazon($20). I measured output for everything I run,it was a fun and surprisingly knowledgeable exercise.

View Quote

This is the same procedure for using an interlock.
When you turn off the main breaker, you activate the interlock.

Except without the interlock installed, if you fail to follow this procedure exactly, you can have the main breaker and backfeed breaker on at the same time and you have the potential to backfeed the powerlines.
You also have the potential to energize the generator plug prongs from the mains.
The interlock is a safety device that physically prevents you from making this happen.

If there isn't one for your panel, you can fasion one from sheet metal.

Posted: 8/9/2013 8:47:45 AM EDT

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:

Here's your answer for a whole house 200 amp TS.

I have the exact same one as in the picture on the right. It's a 200 amp switch, and it's very heavy and VERY well made. It's spring loaded, and when you throw that red handle on the right, it SLAMS open or closed right NOW. It sounds like a shotgun going off.

http://www.apelectric.com/7205A-Ronk-200A-Manual-Transfer-Switch-240V-p/7205a.htm

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Ronk

Here's your answer for a whole house 200 amp TS.

I have the exact same one as in the picture on the right. It's a 200 amp switch, and it's very heavy and VERY well made. It's spring loaded, and when you throw that red handle on the right, it SLAMS open or closed right NOW. It sounds like a shotgun going off.

http://www.apelectric.com/7205A-Ronk-200A-Manual-Transfer-Switch-240V-p/7205a.htm

This is exactly what I have. It works great and is nearly foolproof. I can't say it is any better than an interlock, and it is definitely more expensive, but it is simple and solid. I don't regret spending the money,

Posted: 8/9/2013 10:20:23 AM EDT

[#28]

Quote History

Quoted:
We we going to do a interlock block but they did not have one for my panel. A transfer switch was too constrictive for my needs.
My father and I took the same principle and applied it to my panel.

My generator procedure:
A). Turn off main breaker.
B). Turn off all other breakers in the house.
C). Fire up the generator.
D). I have a breaker strictly for the generator, turn that on.
E). Switch which breakers you want to run in the house.It takes a little managing but I can run anything I want (except central air) whenever I want.

To power down the generator and switch to street power reverse the above steps.

It is best if you know the wattage draw of what you have in the house.I bought one of those save a watt kitts from amazon($20). I measured output for everything I run,it was a fun and surprisingly knowledgeable exercise.

View Quote

That'll work but you better hope no one accidentally switches the main breaker to on when the generator is connected.

Also, what you have there MAY be illegal depending on your location and local laws. If you have a private power company, most likely if they find out about this setup, they will shut off the power to your house until you make it safe.

This type of setup is not a good idea even though it does work.

Posted: 8/9/2013 11:50:00 AM EDT

[#29]

Quote History

Quoted:
We we going to do a interlock block but they did not have one for my panel. A transfer switch was too constrictive for my needs.
My father and I took the same principle and applied it to my panel.

My generator procedure:
A). Turn off main breaker.
B). Turn off all other breakers in the house.
C). Fire up the generator.
D). I have a breaker strictly for the generator, turn that on.
E). Switch which breakers you want to run in the house.It takes a little managing but I can run anything I want (except central air) whenever I want.

To power down the generator and switch to street power reverse the above steps.

It is best if you know the wattage draw of what you have in the house.I bought one of those save a watt kitts from amazon($20). I measured output for everything I run,it was a fun and surprisingly knowledgeable exercise.

View Quote

one mistake and the generator will be on fire in three seconds.

ar-jedi

Posted: 8/9/2013 7:40:35 PM EDT

[#30]

I like my interlock kit. I have had it for a couple of years and never had to use it until a couple weeks ago when we had a bad storm. I had the power back up in 10 minutes... The biggest part of that was moving the Gennie!

Posted: 8/10/2013 5:50:10 PM EDT

[#31]

The problem I have in selectively shutting off circuits at the panel is that I have a small panel and whoever laid it out was pants-on-head retarded. Lights and outlets for half the house seem to be on one circuit, while I have four dead breakers because the new heat pump is wired outside to a new sub-panel out by the meter.

I really need to have a competent electrician sort it out and maybe put in a bigger panel before I think about the transfer switch.

Posted: 8/11/2013 7:02:41 AM EDT

[#32]

This book has a whole chapter on transfer switches and how to install them. If you are interested in learning how they work and how to install them.

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-Complete-Wiring-Edition/dp/1589236017/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1376233239&sr=8-1&keywords=electrical+wiring

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Whole House Transfer Switches

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