User Panel
Posted: 2/13/2010 2:34:25 PM EST
Hello SF folks. I've been coming to the Survival Forums for several years now, and I see a lot of threads pop up regarding vests/chest rigs for SHTF. So in that spirit, I decided to post my setup, in order to give others an idea of what they want/need in such a rig. In another thread, fellow ARFCOMer albatrossarmament had pics of his MAV rig, and I based my rig off of his. I also studied Currahee's Every Citizen A Soldier site and gleaned some useful info from him as well.
I looked at many different styles of rigs before deciding on a Tactical Tailor 2-piece MAV and X-Harness. I also read through endless gear porn threads, and "questions about ____" threads. I considered what I might be using such a rig for if SHTF, what I would realistically need to carry, and my current fitness level. I also considered my local area: its terrain, climate, and weather. For me, I will use this setup in several scenarios: One is if I have to BO. Second is in direct defense of my home post-SHTF. Third is if I am patrolling my property, due to an extended/catastrophic event. Fourth is while I'm doing the same as three, but as a normal routine. I live in Southern Mississippi, and it has a hot, humid climate most of the year, along with copious amounts of rain. My area is predominately pine forests, with a lot of vines, thorns, and brush close to the ground. There's also a lot of farmland surrounding me. My goal was to carry no more than six mags, plenty of water, and some first aid and utility gear. SPECS: TT 2-piece MAV with X-Harness (2) TT single mag shingles (2) OSOE CQB double mag pouches OSOE Compact VOK Pouch TT V1 utility pouch (2) HSGI Nalgene pouches I decided on the TT 2-piece MAV because it opens in the front, giving extra ventilation, and it is easier to put on than other designs. It rides at roughly midriff level on me; the X-Harness won't allow it to ride any higher and I'm only 5'7". It does ride high enough that a first-line belt isn't a problem. For mag pouches, I wanted a combo of fast/easy access along with security and protection from bulk water and debris. I compromised with two shingles for fast reloads and two double mag pouches that have flaps for protection, and the double retention of Velcro and Fastex buckes. If I have to engage a target, my first two reloads will come from the shingles. To me, avoidance, silence, and stealth will be key whether patrolling or bugging out, so the other four mags are secured in the flapped pouches. IMO, water in any SHTF is very important, especially in a hot climate. I have also been reluctant to give up my old-school canteens for a Camelbak as a sole water container, so I compromised with two Nalgenes on the chest rig. It adds about 5 pounds, but it also helps balance out the weight up front. The water in the Nalgene bottles is intended to be used last if I am wearing my Camelbak or a backpack. I chose a fairly compact VOK kit, both to save space and for practicality. It contains a couple GI dressings, gauze, gloves, and tape. I carry a small "cuts and scrapes" kit on my first line, and my backpack has a larger, general purpose kit. Finally, I added a low-profile utility pouch to my strong side, just to carry some light cleaning gear, a Powerbar or two, a light, multitool, and compass––although most of that resides on my first line. The TT vertical E&E pouch will also fit in the space available. A low-ride belt holster will allow a pistol to clear, as this pouch is only about 1.5" thick. These are my thoughts on a possible setup. I welcome your questions or comments. |
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Nicely put-together set-up.
I also like the TT 2-piece MAV and and have a couple set-ups. One suggestion is I would still go with a Camelback and drop one Nalgene. Put a compact water filter and other essentials in the vacant Nalgene pouch. Or consider a TT 3 day pack for the hydration bladder and extra shtf sustainment gear for the BO part of your scenerios. My .02. |
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Nicely put-together set-up. I also like the TT 2-piece MAV and and have a couple set-ups. One suggestion is I would still go with a Camelback and drop one Nalgene. Put a compact water filter and other essentials in the vacant Nalgene pouch. Or consider a TT 3 day pack for the hydration bladder and extra shtf sustainment gear for the BO part of your scenerios. My .02. Thanks. I have a Camelbak MULE that I plan to use to supplement the chest rig with, along with a larger pack for longer forays. I keep a filter (PUR Hiker) in that pack. |
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I think you've put some logical thought into the thing, and it shows.
I could quibble with some things, but they would be personal preferene issues, not terribly substantial. One notes that your kit does not provide for a sidearm plus its ammo, which is something that you might want to address. You might also want to look into small radio comm gear, as while you are away from base, you might need to contact them, or others in your group. |
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Hello SF folks. I've been coming to the Survival Forums for several years now, and I see a lot of threads pop up regarding vests/chest rigs for SHTF. So in that spirit, I decided to post my setup, in order to give others an idea of what they want/need in such a rig. In another thread, fellow ARFCOMer albatrossarmament had pics of his MAV rig, and I based my rig off of his. I also studied Currahee's Every Citizen A Soldier site and gleaned some useful info from him as well. I looked at many different styles of rigs before deciding on a Tactical Tailor 2-piece MAV and X-Harness. I also read through endless gear porn threads, and "questions about ____" threads. I considered what I might be using such a rig for if SHTF, what I would realistically need to carry, and my current fitness level. I also considered my local area: its terrain, climate, and weather. For me, I will use this setup in several scenarios: One is if I have to BO. Second is in direct defense of my home post-SHTF. Third is if I am patrolling my property, due to an extended/catastrophic event. Fourth is while I'm doing the same as three, but as a normal routine. I live in Southern Mississippi, and it has a hot, humid climate most of the year, along with copious amounts of rain. My area is predominately pine forests, with a lot of vines, thorns, and brush close to the ground. There's also a lot of farmland surrounding me. My goal was to carry no more than six mags, plenty of water, and some first aid and utility gear. http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/jasonpharez/007-2.jpg SPECS: TT 2-piece MAV with X-Harness (2) TT single mag shingles (2) OSOE CQB double mag pouches OSOE Compact VOK Pouch TT V1 utility pouch (2) HSGI Nalgene pouches I decided on the TT 2-piece MAV because it opens in the front, giving extra ventilation, and it is easier to put on than other designs. It rides at roughly midriff level on me; the X-Harness won't allow it to ride any higher and I'm only 5'7". It does ride high enough that a first-line belt isn't a problem. For mag pouches, I wanted a combo of fast/easy access along with security and protection from bulk water and debris. I compromised with two shingles for fast reloads and two double mag pouches that have flaps for protection, and the double retention of Velcro and Fastex buckes. If I have to engage a target, my first two reloads will come from the shingles. To me, avoidance, silence, and stealth will be key whether patrolling or bugging out, so the other four mags are secured in the flapped pouches. IMO, water in any SHTF is very important, especially in a hot climate. I have also been reluctant to give up my old-school canteens for a Camelbak as a sole water container, so I compromised with two Nalgenes on the chest rig. It adds about 5 pounds, but it also helps balance out the weight up front. The water in the Nalgene bottles is intended to be used last if I am wearing my Camelbak or a backpack. I chose a fairly compact VOK kit, both to save space and for practicality. It contains a couple GI dressings, gauze, gloves, and tape. I carry a small "cuts and scrapes" kit on my first line, and my backpack has a larger, general purpose kit. Finally, I added a low-profile utility pouch to my strong side, just to carry some light cleaning gear, a Powerbar or two, a light, multitool, and compass––although most of that resides on my first line. The TT vertical E&E pouch will also fit in the space available. A low-ride belt holster will allow a pistol to clear, as this pouch is only about 1.5" thick. These are my thoughts on a possible setup. I welcome your questions or comments. Damn you!!! Now I have to sell all my stuff and make a set up like that in OD. I ofcourse would make some personal preferance changes on nalgene pouch selection. But otherwise, I LIKEY!!!!! Pathfinder |
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I think you've put some logical thought into the thing, and it shows. I could quibble with some things, but they would be personal preferene issues, not terribly substantial. One notes that your kit does not provide for a sidearm plus its ammo, which is something that you might want to address. You might also want to look into small radio comm gear, as while you are away from base, you might need to contact them, or others in your group. Raf, I'm building a first line that has a pistol/ammo, knife, and small survival kit. I've always kept pistol mags on the belt, and that is staying consistent with this setup. As for a radio, to be honest I have no group, so no radios yet. What othe things would you "quibble" with? I'm interested in hearing your thoughts, if you have the time. |
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Ms329, the total cost was $254.95. I got the MAV from the EE for $55, the OSOE mag pouches for $57.20, and everything else from Blackstone Tactical, as they offer free shipping for ARFCOMers. John Willis of OSOE sent me the Compact VOK Pouch at no cost to T&E, so add another $55 for it.
This is my first real foray into MOLLE gear, and it's been quite expensive! I have a complete ALICE setup that didn't cost $100, but I wanted to have a more modular, adaptable setup than the ALICE gear provides. I also sold a lot of old gear and gun accessories in the EE until I had built up enough in my PP account to where I didn't have to come out of pocket much. You can save some money by looking in the EE, on eBay, and being flexible and patient. I bought items that were exactly what I wanted, but if you're willing to compromise a bit, you can save some money. |
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Hello SF folks. I've been coming to the Survival Forums for several years now, and I see a lot of threads pop up regarding vests/chest rigs for SHTF. So in that spirit, I decided to post my setup, in order to give others an idea of what they want/need in such a rig. In another thread, fellow ARFCOMer albatrossarmament had pics of his MAV rig, and I based my rig off of his. I also studied Currahee's Every Citizen A Soldier site and gleaned some useful info from him as well. I looked at many different styles of rigs before deciding on a Tactical Tailor 2-piece MAV and X-Harness. I also read through endless gear porn threads, and "questions about ____" threads. I considered what I might be using such a rig for if SHTF, what I would realistically need to carry, and my current fitness level. I also considered my local area: its terrain, climate, and weather. For me, I will use this setup in several scenarios: One is if I have to BO. Second is in direct defense of my home post-SHTF. Third is if I am patrolling my property, due to an extended/catastrophic event. Fourth is while I'm doing the same as three, but as a normal routine. I live in Southern Mississippi, and it has a hot, humid climate most of the year, along with copious amounts of rain. My area is predominately pine forests, with a lot of vines, thorns, and brush close to the ground. There's also a lot of farmland surrounding me. My goal was to carry no more than six mags, plenty of water, and some first aid and utility gear. http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/jasonpharez/007-2.jpg SPECS: TT 2-piece MAV with X-Harness (2) TT single mag shingles (2) OSOE CQB double mag pouches OSOE Compact VOK Pouch TT V1 utility pouch (2) HSGI Nalgene pouches I decided on the TT 2-piece MAV because it opens in the front, giving extra ventilation, and it is easier to put on than other designs. It rides at roughly midriff level on me; the X-Harness won't allow it to ride any higher and I'm only 5'7". It does ride high enough that a first-line belt isn't a problem. For mag pouches, I wanted a combo of fast/easy access along with security and protection from bulk water and debris. I compromised with two shingles for fast reloads and two double mag pouches that have flaps for protection, and the double retention of Velcro and Fastex buckes. If I have to engage a target, my first two reloads will come from the shingles. To me, avoidance, silence, and stealth will be key whether patrolling or bugging out, so the other four mags are secured in the flapped pouches. IMO, water in any SHTF is very important, especially in a hot climate. I have also been reluctant to give up my old-school canteens for a Camelbak as a sole water container, so I compromised with two Nalgenes on the chest rig. It adds about 5 pounds, but it also helps balance out the weight up front. The water in the Nalgene bottles is intended to be used last if I am wearing my Camelbak or a backpack. I chose a fairly compact VOK kit, both to save space and for practicality. It contains a couple GI dressings, gauze, gloves, and tape. I carry a small "cuts and scrapes" kit on my first line, and my backpack has a larger, general purpose kit. Finally, I added a low-profile utility pouch to my strong side, just to carry some light cleaning gear, a Powerbar or two, a light, multitool, and compass––although most of that resides on my first line. The TT vertical E&E pouch will also fit in the space available. A low-ride belt holster will allow a pistol to clear, as this pouch is only about 1.5" thick. These are my thoughts on a possible setup. I welcome your questions or comments. Damn you!!! Now I have to sell all my stuff and make a set up like that in OD. I ofcourse would make some personal preferance changes on nalgene pouch selection. But otherwise, I LIKEY!!!!! Pathfinder Pathfinder, what Nalgene pouch would you use? After I ordered these, I saw that OSOE had some that were pretty low-profile, and Blackhawk makes one with a flap and Fastex buckle. Both of those look interesting––I might have to get one of each and try them out. As for a similar setup in OD, not too long ago someone on the EE was selling a full MAV/X-Harness with 10 or 15 pouches, all brand new, for $125 shipped! I wanted to buy it but he didn't take PP. |
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Pathfinder, what Nalgene pouch would you use? After I ordered these, I saw that OSOE had some that were pretty low-profile, and Blackhawk makes one with a flap and Fastex buckle. Both of those look interesting––I might have to get one of each and try them out. As for a similar setup in OD, not too long ago someone on the EE was selling a full MAV/X-Harness with 10 or 15 pouches, all brand new, for $125 shipped! I wanted to buy it but he didn't take PP. These Like I said, just a personal choice. But I still love your setup. Do you mind if I ask- "how much?" & "do you mind if I copy you?" Pathfinder |
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I looked at that design, also––it appears to be modeled on the Maxpedition Nalgene pouch. I wanted as narrow and low profile as possible––the HSGI ones I have only take up two columns of PALS. I figured if I needed more utility space, I could attach some pouches to the PALS on the HSGI pouches. Also, the HSGI weren't my absolute favorite (I'd prefer a buckle to a zipper), but they were the best compromise of features versus price––I couldn't see spending $50 each on bottle pouches.
See above for the price on my rig...it was about $255; it would be $310 if I wasn't given the VOK. BTW there's an OD MAV/X-Harness/Center Adapter for $60 in the old EE right now, along with a bunch of pouches available separately. ETA: No I don't mind if you copy me––just post pics when you got yours set up! Like I said, I based my setup on the one albatrossarmament uses. See Here to check his out. He uses a custom back panel and some custom pouches on his. |
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Nice setup, but I aim for a more low-key civilian look. Eagle industries patrol bandoleer is my choice for grab and go ammo carrier, everything else can go on a belt or in a a pack. I do not want to look too paramilitary in a SHTF situation, and I can do the same things with my earth tone khaki carharts, boots and oilskin coat that I could accomplish with a full set of multicam fatigues.
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Nice setup, but I aim for a more low-key civilian look. Eagle industries patrol bandoleer is my choice for grab and go ammo carrier, everything else can go on a belt or in a a pack. I do not want to look too paramilitary in a SHTF situation, and I can do the same things with my earth tone khaki carharts, boots and oilskin coat that I could accomplish with a full set of multicam fatigues. Thanks, and good points. Being low key will important in certain situations, and less important than others. I created this setup with a set of defined parameters. I'm also building an active-shooter setup with one of the Eagle chest rigs that can double as a low-profile rig suitable for concealment if the need arises. I have a 5.11 Bail Out Bag if I need something grab and go or to keep in a vehicle. I think there's a limit to how low-profile you can be while carrying an AR or AK, however. Even here, where hunters and rifles abound, someone with an EBR is going to stand out. I'm working on that, too, with an 11.5" carbine I'll be purchasing soon that will be primarily used as a patrol rifle. My experience has taught me that sometimes you want to be low-pro, and other times you want to project control and authority. As always, the individual situation will dictate choices in gear, weapons, and attitude. I agree with you for the most part regarding wearing normal clothing––but in Mississippi, some Realtree coveralls or shirt wouldn't look out of place, either. I think it's a good idea to have a few sets of suitable camouflage field clothing, but it's just as prudent to have plain, sturdy field/work/everyday clothes for those situations where camo isn't needed or desired. |
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I think you've put some logical thought into the thing, and it shows. I could quibble with some things, but they would be personal preferene issues, not terribly substantial. One notes that your kit does not provide for a sidearm plus its ammo, which is something that you might want to address. You might also want to look into small radio comm gear, as while you are away from base, you might need to contact them, or others in your group. Raf, I'm building a first line that has a pistol/ammo, knife, and small survival kit. I've always kept pistol mags on the belt, and that is staying consistent with this setup. As for a radio, to be honest I have no group, so no radios yet. What othe things would you "quibble" with? I'm interested in hearing your thoughts, if you have the time. Sure, I have the time, but you seem to have done a pretty good job of prioritizing your requirements, and researching the means to meet them. I really have nothing substantial to add. I presume at least one of those nalgene carriers contains both bottle and cup? It's possible that you might want to boil some water at some point, and the cup being present will make that possible. When you say "first-line", that sort of implies that the above rig will often be used in conjunction with "first-line" no? If so, then the only comment I would add is to try to obtain such items as will be easily transferred back-and-forth between the two sets of gear, as needed. Of course, you will take care that the two rigs interface as seamlessly as possible. It will be interesting to see the two together, and how they work in conjunction with each other. |
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I think you've put some logical thought into the thing, and it shows. I could quibble with some things, but they would be personal preferene issues, not terribly substantial. One notes that your kit does not provide for a sidearm plus its ammo, which is something that you might want to address. You might also want to look into small radio comm gear, as while you are away from base, you might need to contact them, or others in your group. Raf, I'm building a first line that has a pistol/ammo, knife, and small survival kit. I've always kept pistol mags on the belt, and that is staying consistent with this setup. As for a radio, to be honest I have no group, so no radios yet. What othe things would you "quibble" with? I'm interested in hearing your thoughts, if you have the time. Sure, I have the time, but you seem to have done a pretty good job of prioritizing your requirements, and researching the means to meet them. I really have nothing substantial to add. I presume at least one of those nalgene carriers contains both bottle and cup? It's possible that you might want to boil some water at some point, and the cup being present will make that possible. When you say "first-line", that sort of implies that the above rig will often be used in conjunction with "first-line" no? If so, then the only comment I would add is to try to obtain such items as will be easily transferred back-and-forth between the two sets of gear, as needed. Of course, you will take care that the two rigs interface as seamlessly as possible. It will be interesting to see the two together, and how they work in conjunction with each other. Well, coming from you, "I have nothing substantial to add" is quite a compliment! I have yet to get a cup for the Nalgene, but it's on the priority list. I always have a cup under one of my canteens on my ALICE setup, and this one will be no different. You are correct in your assumption about using this in conjucntion with a first-line belt. For right now, that's an ALICE belt with a holster, knife, mag pouch, and a couple of small utility pouches. I'm working on a more dedicated setup using an ATS War Belt, and this will also pull double duty as training gear. The chest rig as it sits now can be used with everyday carry gear if I remove the utility pouch on the right side. (My BH SERPA concealment holster rides too high to wear with the pouch on.) The pouch does clear the SERPA duty holster on my duty belt and first-line gear. The chest rig rides high enough to clear both duty and "war" belts just fine. I have no doubt it will work fine with the ATS belt, even at my diminuitive 5'7". I have encountered some problems wearing the chest rig with an ALICE pack, due to the shoulder straps being directly over the sides of the Nalgene pouches. Being relatively small in stature (33" waist and 41" chest) the ALICE pack also makes the Nalgenes did into my back. The setup works well with the MOLLE assault pack I have as a GHB, so I am considering a 3-day pack of some sort to replace the ALICE. I find the MOLLE pack surprisingly comfortable, even when loaded up, so I think a newer design pack will suit my needs better. Most of the 3-day style pack also seem to have a lower profile width-wise, which is an advantage when moving through heavy brush. In addition they offer greater organization and access to gear, without having to dig through everything like on the ALICE. I've never had good luck wearing an ALICE pack with any other gear, though, so others' mileage may vary. |
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Looks good, got any more pictures? Any with you wearing it? I'd like to see how it all sits.
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Looks good to me, but what about adding something like a Maxpedition Rolly Polly somewhere so you have somewhere to stash used mags?
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Looks nice. I'd also hang a hydration bladder on the back, plus a little kevlar front and back, and add more mags.
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Nice rig, the TT 2-piece is GTG, especially with the X-harness. I used to run one, though mine was a little more ammo-heavy.
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I have level II concealable soft armor that I bought for work that I can use if I feel necessary. As for the hydration bladder, I may end up trying one. My original intent was to add one, but I decided not to after reading several posts here that said the bladder added too much weight to the back. I have a Camelbak MULE that wears well over the MAV, so I may just keep them separate. I may add a couple snap links or Grimlocs to the webbing loops on the X-Harness to help secure the MULE's shoulder straps to the harness.
As for ammo, my intention from the outset was to carry no more than six mags on the MAV. I'll have another in the rifle and one or two more on my first line, if necessary. Those eight or nine mags are plenty––I'll carry a bandolier in my pack if I anticipate needing more. Again, this rig is intended for patrol/BO use primarily, not for extended engagements. I understand that ammo can go quickly in a battle, but I've chosen to trade ammo for water; without water to stay hydrated those mags will do me no good. (And yes, I understand that water does me no good if I'm dead.) Everything's a compromise, but I believe I've made the best choices for likely scenarios while keeping this rig fairly light––it's about 15 pounds fully loaded. A tad over six pounds of ammo, 4.6 pounds of water, about a pound or so in actual fabric, and the rest in first aid and miscellaneous items. As a final note, I haven't excluded the option of attaching a triple shingle on each side and then adding the existing pouches on top of that, if I find I need more ammo. On John Willis, I was apprehensive about ordering directly from OSOE, due to some negative reports about delivery times from posters here and over at LF. I'm happy to say that he was very timely with my order––the items shipped the next day. I placed my order online, and he called me and confirmed things less than 15 minutes later. He also kept in constant communication via email. If you want OSOE products, but feel uncomfortable dealing directly with John, his products are available at Tactical Response Gear. As for the products, to my layman's eyes they are extremely well made. You can read my review on the mag pouches and VOK pouch Here |
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Changed my mind on my post. I like the minimalist approach. Cheers all, |
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You decided what was important to YOU based your purchases around that. I say its excellent, but how do you feel about it?
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I think you've put some logical thought into the thing, and it shows. I could quibble with some things, but they would be personal preferene issues, not terribly substantial. One notes that your kit does not provide for a sidearm plus its ammo, which is something that you might want to address. You might also want to look into small radio comm gear, as while you are away from base, you might need to contact them, or others in your group. Raf, I'm building a first line that has a pistol/ammo, knife, and small survival kit. I've always kept pistol mags on the belt, and that is staying consistent with this setup. As for a radio, to be honest I have no group, so no radios yet. What othe things would you "quibble" with? I'm interested in hearing your thoughts, if you have the time. Sure, I have the time, but you seem to have done a pretty good job of prioritizing your requirements, and researching the means to meet them. I really have nothing substantial to add. I presume at least one of those nalgene carriers contains both bottle and cup? It's possible that you might want to boil some water at some point, and the cup being present will make that possible. When you say "first-line", that sort of implies that the above rig will often be used in conjunction with "first-line" no? If so, then the only comment I would add is to try to obtain such items as will be easily transferred back-and-forth between the two sets of gear, as needed. Of course, you will take care that the two rigs interface as seamlessly as possible. It will be interesting to see the two together, and how they work in conjunction with each other. Well, coming from you, "I have nothing substantial to add" is quite a compliment! I have yet to get a cup for the Nalgene, but it's on the priority list. I always have a cup under one of my canteens on my ALICE setup, and this one will be no different. You are correct in your assumption about using this in conjucntion with a first-line belt. For right now, that's an ALICE belt with a holster, knife, mag pouch, and a couple of small utility pouches. I'm working on a more dedicated setup using an ATS War Belt, and this will also pull double duty as training gear. The chest rig as it sits now can be used with everyday carry gear if I remove the utility pouch on the right side. (My BH SERPA concealment holster rides too high to wear with the pouch on.) The pouch does clear the SERPA duty holster on my duty belt and first-line gear. The chest rig rides high enough to clear both duty and "war" belts just fine. I have no doubt it will work fine with the ATS belt, even at my diminuitive 5'7". I have encountered some problems wearing the chest rig with an ALICE pack, due to the shoulder straps being directly over the sides of the Nalgene pouches. Being relatively small in stature (33" waist and 41" chest) the ALICE pack also makes the Nalgenes did into my back. The setup works well with the MOLLE assault pack I have as a GHB, so I am considering a 3-day pack of some sort to replace the ALICE. I find the MOLLE pack surprisingly comfortable, even when loaded up, so I think a newer design pack will suit my needs better. Most of the 3-day style pack also seem to have a lower profile width-wise, which is an advantage when moving through heavy brush. In addition they offer greater organization and access to gear, without having to dig through everything like on the ALICE. I've never had good luck wearing an ALICE pack with any other gear, though, so others' mileage may vary. One possible solution to your hydration device issue is to use a Camelbak carrier with attached shoulder straps. Clip the carrier to the outside of the main pack for travel––or put it inside the pack or under the top flap. When doffing the main pack, the Camelbak can be worn with 1/2 line gear via its' own shoulder straps. Nalgenes can go inside main pack as reserve water. One other trivial ––or maybe not so trivial point–– Might want to lower your Line 2 rig, at least the front, once you get Line 1 in place. The lower the mags, the easier the access. You will want wide, flat––maybe just wide webbing––shoulder straps on line 1 belt, lest things start stacking up on your shoulders, and causing discomfort. |
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I think you've put some logical thought into the thing, and it shows. I could quibble with some things, but they would be personal preferene issues, not terribly substantial. One notes that your kit does not provide for a sidearm plus its ammo, which is something that you might want to address. You might also want to look into small radio comm gear, as while you are away from base, you might need to contact them, or others in your group. Raf, I'm building a first line that has a pistol/ammo, knife, and small survival kit. I've always kept pistol mags on the belt, and that is staying consistent with this setup. As for a radio, to be honest I have no group, so no radios yet. What othe things would you "quibble" with? I'm interested in hearing your thoughts, if you have the time. Sure, I have the time, but you seem to have done a pretty good job of prioritizing your requirements, and researching the means to meet them. I really have nothing substantial to add. I presume at least one of those nalgene carriers contains both bottle and cup? It's possible that you might want to boil some water at some point, and the cup being present will make that possible. When you say "first-line", that sort of implies that the above rig will often be used in conjunction with "first-line" no? If so, then the only comment I would add is to try to obtain such items as will be easily transferred back-and-forth between the two sets of gear, as needed. Of course, you will take care that the two rigs interface as seamlessly as possible. It will be interesting to see the two together, and how they work in conjunction with each other. Well, coming from you, "I have nothing substantial to add" is quite a compliment! I have yet to get a cup for the Nalgene, but it's on the priority list. I always have a cup under one of my canteens on my ALICE setup, and this one will be no different. You are correct in your assumption about using this in conjucntion with a first-line belt. For right now, that's an ALICE belt with a holster, knife, mag pouch, and a couple of small utility pouches. I'm working on a more dedicated setup using an ATS War Belt, and this will also pull double duty as training gear. The chest rig as it sits now can be used with everyday carry gear if I remove the utility pouch on the right side. (My BH SERPA concealment holster rides too high to wear with the pouch on.) The pouch does clear the SERPA duty holster on my duty belt and first-line gear. The chest rig rides high enough to clear both duty and "war" belts just fine. I have no doubt it will work fine with the ATS belt, even at my diminuitive 5'7". I have encountered some problems wearing the chest rig with an ALICE pack, due to the shoulder straps being directly over the sides of the Nalgene pouches. Being relatively small in stature (33" waist and 41" chest) the ALICE pack also makes the Nalgenes did into my back. The setup works well with the MOLLE assault pack I have as a GHB, so I am considering a 3-day pack of some sort to replace the ALICE. I find the MOLLE pack surprisingly comfortable, even when loaded up, so I think a newer design pack will suit my needs better. Most of the 3-day style pack also seem to have a lower profile width-wise, which is an advantage when moving through heavy brush. In addition they offer greater organization and access to gear, without having to dig through everything like on the ALICE. I've never had good luck wearing an ALICE pack with any other gear, though, so others' mileage may vary. One possible solution to your hydration device issue is to use a Camelbak carrier with attached shoulder straps. Clip the carrier to the outside of the main pack for travel––or put it inside the pack or under the top flap. When doffing the main pack, the Camelbak can be worn with 1/2 line gear via its' own shoulder straps. Nalgenes can go inside main pack as reserve water. One other trivial ––or maybe not so trivial point–– Might want to lower your Line 2 rig, at least the front, once you get Line 1 in place. The lower the mags, the easier the access. You will want wide, flat––maybe just wide webbing––shoulder straps on line 1 belt, lest things start stacking up on your shoulders, and causing discomfort. Raf, that's the plan with the Camelbak, at least for now, although I'm planing on keeping the Nalgenes on the chest rig. I'm planning on using either ATS or HSGI war belt suspenders; I'll adjust the chest rig height once I get the belt set up. As it sits now, it's not too bad to get the mags out. |
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Raf, that's the plan with the Camelbak, at least for now, although I'm planing on keeping the Nalgenes on the chest rig. I'm planning on using either ATS or HSGI war belt suspenders; I'll adjust the chest rig height once I get the belt set up. As it sits now, it's not too bad to get the mags out. Have you thought of one of these ? This is one of the first things I thought of, when YOU MADE ME start thinking about spending more money! I mean changing my gear... You know what, I am gonna do a rig like yours & since it is your fault, you are gonna send me the money for it! I'll be waiting for a check Pathfinder |
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Raf, that's the plan with the Camelbak, at least for now, although I'm planing on keeping the Nalgenes on the chest rig. I'm planning on using either ATS or HSGI war belt suspenders; I'll adjust the chest rig height once I get the belt set up. As it sits now, it's not too bad to get the mags out. Have you thought of one of these ? This is one of the first things I thought of, when YOU MADE ME start thinking about spending more money! I mean changing my gear... You know what, I am gonna do a rig like yours & since it is your fault, you are gonna send me the money for it! I'll be waiting for a check Pathfinder LOL! I wish I had that kind of money! I looked at TT's version of what you listed above––I think it's called the "Joey" hydration pouch/bladder. I may get one down the road and try it out, but the Nalgenes are working nicely for now. I'm going to try and order the war belt setup later this evening. Hopefully I can have it by this weekend to play around with. |
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Well I ordered all of my war belt components this evening. Now I just gotta hope it all gets here quickly! I can't afford another SERPA holster right now, though, so I'm going to use the duty belt loop off my old duty holster with my CQC holster. I haven't completely decided to go with the SERPA, anyway––I may go with a Safariland 6285, or I may have something custom made. I'm trying to find a balance between protection for the pistol and ease of draw/use.
I also added a center adapter to the MAV. I'm not sure if it's going to be useful yet or not. I may also find some small utility pouches to go on the Nalgene pouches to hold purification tablets––I've got a couple of GI grenade pouches, but they're way too large for that. I intend to use them on the war belt for a GI lensatic compass and a boo-boo kit. I'll edit my thread title and post more pics as soon as I get the war belt set up. |
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While I like chest rigs, I've found they trap in heat and you get real warm real quick. Found the best for me is just the old ALICE gear, 4 - 3 mag pouches, 2 compass pouches and butt pack. I have one of the slim line camel backs for hydration. Works like a charm and easy to take on and off.
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Have you checked out the mesh vests like the 5.11 VTAC? They aren't nearly as hot. |
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I made this same comment in the AK side in a thread about chest rigs and war-belts etc.
Dump pouch. If it's SHTF, unless you're engaged in fixed defense, if you drop a mag you may not get it back. And getting another one will be problematic at best. Same for any other gear you might use, then suddenly "need not to use" in a hurry. |
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Just some musings, but perhaps some of you all might provide some illumination on the subject.
First, let's do some review. 1/Line gear: Items that never leave your person, unless for extremely brief intervals, and not many of them. This includes, but is not limited to hydration, personal defense, immediate first-aid, navigation, and small amount of food. 2/Line gear: This also augments the above, but the main purpose is fighting. Included, but not limited to mags/carriers, immediate need weapons tools/cleaning kit. 3/Line gear: Everything else needed to survive/accomplish mission. Obviously, there can be overlap between the lines, and some reasonable measures can be made to accomplish one's goals/mission. Here's the problem; We have 3 lines of gear, but only so much room on the body to fit all this stuff. The point is that the user, either out of necessity or for personal conveniance, can shed the layers without adverse effect on the layers still retained/worn. IOW, dumping the backpack should have no negative short-term effects as long as the user still retains his L1/L2 gear. If the user will never, ever have to wear a backpack with a waistbelt––and this precludes all but the most modest-sized backpacks–– then the user can wear a vest rig above (L2) the (misnamed) "Battle Belt" which is really an L1 carrier. The wearing of any decent, modern packpack (L3) necessarily requires room on the user's hips for the hip-belt. This is OK, if the user wears a vest that has enough real estate to accomodate both line L1/L2 items. This approach would seem to require an extended pistol adapter which was thin enough to be worn beneath the backpack waistbelt, but was still attached to the bottom edge of the L1/L2 vest, which was raised sufficiently to clear the pack waist belt. In short, you can wear a chest rig, rigged high to accomodate waistbelt of L3 backpack (in which case your chest rig should include L1 items), OR you can wear chest rig rigged high to accomodate L1 waistbelt. Can't do both. And there's the problem. Note that I exclude leg-mounted platforms. In my experience, these are problematic for a number of reasons. For one, any weight attached to one's legs will slow one down in running, as the weight has to be not only carried, but moved back and forth in a reciprocating motion. Very inefficient, and tiring. Some other issues include snagging, and construction issues that interfere with L3 gear, such as improperly-placed buckles/inadequate length of extension so as to clear L3 belt. Small, lightweight leg platforms have their uses, but any significant weight/bulk should be avoided, IMHO. With all the above said, and with a nod to those users whose needs differ, my thinking at this point, is along the following lines, based on what I possess currently: Line 3: Either MOLLE II (updated) backpack, CFP-90 (updated), or Large ALICE Hellcat. (updated). All of these packs would be capable of carrying a smallish clip-on parasite pack that would be quickly detached, and bridge the gap between L2/L3 for 2-3 days. Line 2/1: Molle II vest or ILBE Medic's vest. This would have enough real-estate to carry fighting/existence load, especially when augmented by parasite pack from main pack. Side note: Not a disparagement on other's approaches. Under certain circumstances, my "take' on things can/would be all wrong, and other's "take" be much better. This post is made in an attempt to provoke discussion on how the 3 Lines of gear interface with each other, and how best to achieve our goals. Last word: As a Long-time collector of milsurp, I have ensembles dating from SpanAm war to present, and have been a RevWar-CivWar re-enactor as well as an occasional camper. I've used most of this stuff, but not in combat. In addition, I could probably outfit a rifle Team with most equipment, aside from weapons. FWIW, I've got so much milsurp gear that my problem is NOT having equipment, but deciding on what to choose. No brag, just fact. OTOH, doesn't make me a guru, just a long-term collector with a tactical, utilitarian bent . Your constructive criticism is most welcome |
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I was just getting ready to ask if that rig has been tried with a pack. I would think only the mag pouches would clear a pack.
I also gear up to level 3 and ergonomics and weight are huge considerations. I get 5-7 lbs. in extra gear by staying away from mil-surp equipment. Also, I want to attract as little attention as possible if I have to move on foot. The Mav 2 w/X harness has been on my wish list for awhile but I'm concerned that the hardware at the back will cause discomfort under a pack. I have a LBV similar to the V-tac but pouches aren't adjustable and and a molle type setup for a cross-draw holster seemed kind of cheesy at first (this rig was gifted to me by our former SWAT commander). Pistol mag pouches had to be cut off because of the pack's shoulder strap. The cross-draw may be the best setup for discreet movement in SHTF under a jacket with the pack on. Trying to get to a pistol in a concealed carry holster under a jacket and waist belt of a pack would not be pretty. The V-tac is my next purchase so we'll find out. For level 3, I have a Kelty Redwing with a hydration carrier which allows a good supply of water loaded in the best position possible for weight distribution. I have attached a Maxpedition Jumbo Versipac that easily detaches to support all 3 gear levels. It has a pouch for a nalgene bottle but I use a Klean Kanteen stainless 40 oz. that can also be used to boil water. The Kelty also carries my sbr very discretely but not easily brought to bear. I really like your rig. If I thought I had to run and gun for over a mile, I'd set it up with a hydration carrier molle'd to the X harness to get the most weight centered in the system. And I'd have other gear such as food, fire-starting etc. stowed in the nalgene pouches. |
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Thanks conman and raf. I appreciate the criticism and suggestions.
Like I said before, the MAV doesn't wear well with the medium ALICE pack (sans frame). I don't have frame so I can't test it with one. It does work well enough with my GI MOLLE assault pack; the smaller profile and clean sides don't interfere too much with the Nalgene pouches. As for using a ruck with a waist belt, well, I've never been able to wear any kind of LBE/war belt comfortably with a bonfide pack waist belt. Honestly, if I have to hump a huge ruck, I'm in deep shit. I'll have to either strap the war belt to the pack or else just carry the load on my shoulders. Or I could just use my old LBE setup in that case. I think this issue has plagued soldiers and civilian enthusiasts alike since carrying large packs became the norm. As for attaching a Camelbak onto the back of the MAV, I would if this were a training rig or if I never intended to use a pack with it. I'm concerned, though, that if I attach one to the MAV, it will interfere with wearing any kind of frameless/internal frame pack (as these ride close to your back). I understand I can place the bladder inside the pack while wearing it, but I'll be left with no water at all should I have to ditch the pack quickly. I should point out that I haven't used this rig in the field yet; this is the first version I'm trying out. Things may get added/replaced/changed as I see what works and what doesn't. As for the dump pouch and survival kit, I have both of those. I'm waiting for MALICE clips to arrive for the dump pouch, and I have a stocked TT E&E pouch ready to go on the war belt. The survival kit may get moved to the MAV if it's too uncomfortable on the belt. Once I get the war belt set up, I'll post pics of it, along with plenty of pics showing how it wears with both the MAV, my assault pack, and an ALICE pack. I'll point out any defenciencies, and I welcome your suggestions on changes or improvement. |
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Hey ARJJ,
My pistol belt tends to ride more on my lower hip area while the pack's waist belt sits above at the real waist. The pistol belt is attached to my LBV so both systems have 2 levels of support. I have a problem in that I prefer high ride concealed carry holsters that don't work well with a LBV and a duty carry type holster is not an option if I'm trying to be discrete. The main rule for me is don't let anyone know you're armed. I don't want to attract attention from either side in SHTF. I've had many packs and for years I humped packs without waist support so it was a real education when I tried a pack with a chest cinch and waist belt. With 30 lbs. properly packed there is no shift of load as I alter body position. The waist belt and chest cinch are a must to maintain maximum dexterity by not having the shoulders bearing all the load. There is no pack shift to throw off balance. My selection of a pack addressed your concern (mine too) that the hydration unit mounted to the vest would interfere with the pack. My backup is the 40 in the Versipac. There's no perfect system. What's the worst case scenario and what do I need to survive it? Everyone addresses this question in different ways. We're here comparing notes and some of us will use this info to better prepare. |
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Hey ARJJ, thanks. I just went shopping at Tactical Taylor!
I'll post pics when my rig comes. |
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Hey ARJJ, thanks. I just went shopping at Tactical Taylor! I'll post pics when my rig comes. Cool! Do that. |
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I would add that the issue of shoulder straps is somewhat under-recognized. It is all well and good to wear most anything if it is stand-alone, but if one layers things, the thickness of the lower layers can be an issue.
For example, it would be uncomfortable to wear thick, ALICE-sized shoulder pads underneath a plate carrier, or Interceptor vest. In such a case, the shoulder straps beneath the Interceptor vest should be wide (1-1/4", 1/1/2", or 2") webbing, and the width of the webbing is not only dependent on the load being carried, but also the mounting points of such webbing on the belt, and whether or not the configuration is straight-up over shoulder (giving more lee-way), or "X" harness, which is easier to don. IMHO, users should give some thought to the thickness of their shoulder straps for lower (L1/L2) gear, lest something that is satisfactory as a stand-alone interfere with something that will go on top of it. It is also worth adding that the user should don the heaviest possible clothing––usually cold-wet gear–– and don gear after adjusting for the clothing. It is not unknown for large persons, wearing bulky clothing, to run short of adjustment on their gear, which is usually sized for young, fit males. Check it out beforehand. Usually, it is only necessary to add-on some additional strapping, possibly (but not always) requiring some sewing. If sewing is needed, better to find out beforehand in your garage, then when you really need the thing right away. I also understand that some users do not, for a variety of reasons, anticipate a need to 'stack-up" all 3 lines of gear. One hopes your plans do not fail you, but if they do, you might want to consider tailoring your gear to allow you the widest possible array of options. I think we can all agree that it is best to have the widest array of options, and to not self-impose constraints. Not a slam on anyone, by any means, just a suggestion/food for thought. As an aside, I'm having a local cobbler revamp the shoulder-straps of a GI MOLLE I style vest belt. As originally configured, the shoulder-straps, which originate on the middle, rear portion of the 3-part belt terminated at top of shoulder, which was too short. Mod consists of cutting OEM straps at below shoulder blade length on user's back, and adding lengths of webbing that extend over shoulder to users pectorals. Such an added length will allow no-sew fastening to 1" straps coming up from right and left front portions of the belt, with a great deal of adjustability for clothing and such. Cutting and stitching-in below shoulder blades reduces possibility of interferance/comfort issues if pack or similar is worn over the shoulder straps of the vest. In addition, and if desired, the rear, middle portion of the belt can be unbuckled from the front 2 portions of the belt, and return to its original home, a MOLLE I vest, with no loss of functionality. Also adding 2 "D" rings on lower back, which will allow attachment of ILBV-type GI buttpack. I know, I said I hated 'em, but recall that I also said that the ILBV-type buttpack was the only decent one, as it could be attachec/detached without too much fuss, unlike the earlier versions which mandated reconfiguring the rear of the harness as well as the attaching/detaching operation. Lots of intelligent thoughts in this thread. Might have to look into making sure it's not archived and always available... |
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As usual, excellent points Raf! I missed the mailman today, but I should have the belt setup configured tomorrow night. If I'm not too exhausted from work I'll get the wife to take plenty of pics with the belt/suspenders, chest rig, Camelbak, assault pack, and ALICE pack being worn, all for reference. I'll try to remember to take some showing the thickness of all the straps (combined) on the shoulders. Like you, I've found that it quickly grows uncomfortable having straps on top of straps on top of more straps. I'm thinking the ATS suspenders (no padding, low profile webbing) and the thin padding of the X-Harness is going to be a welcome change from the old ALICE LBE suspenders and pack straps. However, once I get a Camelbak or assault pack on top, it may still grow uncomfortable. I will say the GI assault pack straps are very thinly padded, which I like––there is no need for thickly padded straps on such a pack. I think I'll get a few shots of me wearing my ALICE pack/LBE setup, too, just for reference for those still rockin' old-school.
On a side note, I've been wearing a heavy-ass tool belt all week long (framing houses while I wait to get rehired with a local LE agency). I've thought about having someone make a MOLLE tool belt, if I like the war belt setup well enough. Several years ago, I switched from the typical Home Depot quality leather belts to wearing leather pouches on an old brass buckle ALICE belt. The comfort and support under heavy load (and while soaking wet with sweat) is a big step up from the old leather belts. I may try some MOLLE suspenders with the tool belt. A triple-thickness dump pouch would make a helluva hurricane strap pouch, too! |
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ARJJ, thanks for the pics, wish I had a camera.
The pack appears to be empty and contacting at least 2 pouches on your belt (4 for both sides). With all due respect, have you humped this rig for any distance? How much is the complete rig weighing? I have allowed 30lbs. CONCEALED firearms and ammo, 15 ibs. food and water, for a max of 60 lbs. The pics say you're about my my physique. Great job and thanks for RAF's input. I'm working on a method of keeping my firearms concealed and I'm waiting on Kydex to play with holsters and sheaths. Stay tuned, you desrve some pics of my rig. |
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Thanks for the photos and info. Could you elaborate on the "floppiness of the belt system..." How does the ATS War Belt stack up?. I've been thinking of maybe getting an ATS belt (and getting an Eagle duty belt as the inner belt) but after seeing photos of how it is not stitched along the bottom, reading a bad review about it "bunching up" I'm not sure if I want to go with the ATS.
The MAV setup looks great. In fact I had never given any thought to the MAV with X harness until after reading your write up, now it really seems practical. |
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ARJJ, thanks for the pics, wish I had a camera. The pack appears to be empty and contacting at least 2 pouches on your belt (4 for both sides). With all due respect, have you humped this rig for any distance? How much is the complete rig weighing? I have allowed 30lbs. CONCEALED firearms and ammo, 15 ibs. food and water, for a max of 60 lbs. The pics say you're about my my physique. Great job and thanks for RAF's input. I'm working on a method of keeping my firearms concealed and I'm waiting on Kydex to play with holsters and sheaths. Stay tuned, you desrve some pics of my rig. You are correct, the pack is nearly empty. It's a GHB that I'm putting together to throw in the car. I threw it on for illustrative purposes, as I like the design and plan to incorporate a similar "3-day pack" into the rig as my "third line." I have had it loaded down, stuffed to the gills several times, and it still retains its shape and it comfortable to wear. I haven't humped the MAV/war belt any––it's all brand new––so it'll get broken in when I can find time away from work. As for weights, the MAV loaded up weighs in right at 15 pounds. I'd estimate the belt rig weighs about 8-10 pounds; I'll weigh it proper this weekend and report back. Honestly, I can't tell you how much my current pack (ALICE pack) weighs loaded out. Probably 25 pounds or so for the winter, since I carry the sleeping bag and polypros. Since I'm reconfiguring a lot of my gear, it's become quite a mess. Again, I'm 5'7" and 175 pounds, with a 33" waist and 41" chest. I wear either a 15-pound duty belt (plus body armor) or a 20-25 pound tool belt for 8-12 hours at a time, so carrying 30-45 pounds of gear for several hours isn't too difficult. I'm trying to keep total weight of all three rigs (combined) under 50 pounds. |
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Forget that, zoom in on the books. I'll try to remember to snap a few pics of the "library" and post them this weekend LOL. That's just the political science/military/gun bookcase. I have another adjacent to it with nothing but construction and LE books. And I've given away another bookcase worth. |
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Thanks for the photos and info. Could you elaborate on the "floppiness of the belt system..." How does the ATS War Belt stack up?. I've been thinking of maybe getting an ATS belt (and getting an Eagle duty belt as the inner belt) but after seeing photos of how it is not stitched along the bottom, reading a bad review about it "bunching up" I'm not sure if I want to go with the ATS. The MAV setup looks great. In fact I had never given any thought to the MAV with X harness until after reading your write up, now it really seems practical. The belt itself isn't really "floppy" it's just not as rigid as the inner/outer duty belt I'm used to toting. If you look at a couple of the front and back photos in my first pic post (above), you'll notice the SERPA is angled back in toward my leg at the bottom (muzzle) end. I think it's doing that because of the way the belt loop is designed and the fact that the war belt rides slightly lower than a normal duty or pants belt. I've used SERPA holsters, both for Glocks and the M&P, extensively at work, and they typically ride straight up and down on a duty belt. There has never been any binding on draw with the SERPA until now. I'm going to investigate this further as soon as I have some free time and see if I can find the exact hangup. I, too, read some negative remarks on the ATS war belt (on LF IIRC), but I believe ATS has revised the belt a few times since the original design. The ATS seems to be the most common, the other popular type being the ICE Battle Belt. The ICE is significantly more expensive, though, and often unobtainium. For an initial impression I'm pleased with mine. The Velcro strip inside the belt tunnel does cause some slight bunching when you don it, but it's virtually unnoticeable. Careful mating of the Velcro on the duty belt to the Velcro on the war belt should eliminate this bunching. I did take the liberty of doing a few brisk jumping jacks with the belt on, and nothing (other than that knife) flops at all. The PALS webbing maes for secure attachment of pouches, and the Velcro surfaces on the belt means the inner belt isn't separating from the war belt. |
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