Honda small engine... halp

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Honda small engine... halp

Posted: 3/14/2013 2:05:05 PM EDT

I borrowed a pressure washer from a friend. It has a honda gx160 5.5 hp engine.

When he gave it to me it barely ran, and would only throttle up above idle if the choke was on.

I cleaned the carburetor out, it was full of rust and varnish, as was the fuel shutoff. After putting it back together last night it ran a *little* better. I ordered a replacement carb for it today and will put it on before i give it back.

However, as of today it refuses to run. It will sputter a bit, so I did some diagnostics.

It has spark. I have verified this with a spark tester. Yes, the run switch is on. Again, I verified this with a spark tester.

I tested compression. at first, it seemed weak and wouldn't climb above 30 psi so I took the valve cover off and let the valves slam home a few times. After this it had a stronger pull to it and was able to bring compression up to 60 PSI. Is this normal for these engines? High, low, perfect?

I've tried shooting starting fluid in it. Again, it says screw you.

I also resealed the intake gasket with a small amount of silicone to verify it wasn't pulling extra air.

The last thing I can think of is that it is flooding. I don't know why it would run fine last night and flood today. I took the carb apart again and cleaned the float valve again. I verified its operation by holding the float up and it shuts off the fuel flow.

???? If it were mine I'm pretty sure I would have done something disastrous by now

Posted: 3/14/2013 2:06:58 PM EDT

[#1]

will it run without the air filter on it?

Posted: 3/14/2013 2:08:26 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
will it run without the air filter on it?

Air filter on, air filter off, no difference. Most of my playing around has been sans air filter.

Posted: 3/14/2013 2:09:32 PM EDT

[#3]

Run the valves?

Posted: 3/14/2013 2:12:59 PM EDT

[#4]

those carburetors are finicky about FOD... if even one passageway/orifice/air bleed is stopped up with gunk, it'll throw off the fuel curve. Do you have access to compressed air? I'd take the carb completely apart, blow the snot out of everything, re-assemble and try again.

I'm sure you're using fresh gasoline, yes? Replaced the spark plug?

If yes on both, considering you've covered pretty much everything else, there isnt much left. Must check compression, verify that it doesn't have a valve hanging open.

Posted: 3/14/2013 2:18:10 PM EDT

[#5]

Did you check compression at WOT? 30-60 PSI is too low.

Posted: 3/14/2013 2:22:26 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Did you check compression at WOT? 30-60 PSI is too low.

Honestly don't remember what the throttle setting was. Just out of curiosity I shot some oil in the cylinder to see if that would bring the compression up and make some magic happen... it didn't.

The plug comes out wet nearly every time... thus my flooding concern.

The plug was nearly new looking even though it ran like shit before. I might get one of those E3 plugs, they're supposed to solve all kinds of problems or some such shit.

Posted: 3/14/2013 2:25:49 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Run the valves?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QZWV6S-5aA

Valve lash isn't too tight. With the piston at the top of the compression stroke I can wiggle the rocker arms a bit.

Posted: 3/14/2013 2:29:05 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did you check compression at WOT? 30-60 PSI is too low.

Honestly don't remember what the throttle setting was. Just out of curiosity I shot some oil in the cylinder to see if that would bring the compression up and make some magic happen... it didn't.

The plug comes out wet nearly every time... thus my flooding concern.

The plug was nearly new looking even though it ran like shit before. I might get one of those E3 plugs, they're supposed to solve all kinds of problems or some such shit.

Needs to be at WOT to get a correct compression reading.

A shot of oil only tells you if the rings are bad and since the reading didn't change, they are likely OK.

Posted: 3/14/2013 2:30:47 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did you check compression at WOT? 30-60 PSI is too low.

Honestly don't remember what the throttle setting was. Just out of curiosity I shot some oil in the cylinder to see if that would bring the compression up and make some magic happen... it didn't.

The plug comes out wet nearly every time... thus my flooding concern.

The plug was nearly new looking even though it ran like shit before. I might get one of those E3 plugs, they're supposed to solve all kinds of problems or some such shit.

Did you check the gap on the valves while you had the cover off? Sometimes the gap shrinks enough that they never close fully and the engine has very little compression but that's usually a problem with high hour engines not residential engines. And I wouldn't screw around with gimmicky after market plugs. NGK BPR6ES is what these engines come from the factory with and they work great.

ETA Just saw you other post. If you want the exact gap it's .008" on exhaust and .006" on the intake

Posted: 3/14/2013 2:32:37 PM EDT

[#10]

take the sparkplug out, and spin the motor over. I bet it pukes out a bunch of raw gasoline.

Clean plug (with brake cleaner, if you have it) and re-install. Hold throttle wide open, and pull the ripcord. If it fouls the plug again, its definitely got a carb/fuel delivery problem

Posted: 3/14/2013 2:32:54 PM EDT

[#11]

have you been able to reset the carb to factory specs? only running with the choke on says fuel flow restriction. someone may have opened up the mixture screws trying to get it to run right with plugged up jets, which is now causing it to run fat. I would see if you can find the factory specs online, reset it to there and see if it improves. otherwise you might need to pull the carb apart again.

you'll want to check compression with the throttle wide open for consistency by preventing any vacuum being generated in the intake

Posted: 3/14/2013 2:34:25 PM EDT

[#12]

For around $100 you can get a 7hp Chonda replacement from HF. They're actually a lot better than I expected.

(but yea, I'd rather get the real Honda running if possible...)

Posted: 3/14/2013 2:39:53 PM EDT

[#13]

Take the plug out & turn it over a few times. Wire brush the plug, heat it up with a lighter. Put just a bit of gas in the cylinder (Make sure the you don't still have the lighter burning!), replace plug, connect plug wire & crank it. It will probably start for just a second. The Carb is almost certainly still plugged from not being run for too long with old gas sitting in there messing everything up, but the little bit of gas trick in the cylinder may get it to run, even if it is poorly. Just because the plug was wet before, doesn't mean there is enough to make it fire. Been there.

Then, get some Seafoam, mix some with the fresh gas in the tank & run it a bit, even if you need to take the plug out a few times & do the little shot of gas, replace plug & run it a couple of seconds trick. I've had this unclog some unknown little somethng in small engine carbs a few times. It's always on a machine that has sat up for too long. Four Wheelers, Weed Eaters, Lawnmowers, etc. Sounds goofy as hell, I know. Try it & advise of success or failure, please.

eta-Also check for a crack in the fuel line where it could be sucking air or clogged fuel filter.

Posted: 3/14/2013 3:22:54 PM EDT

[#14]

I'm going with flooding.

New plug makes it "try" to fire on every pull, but it won't sustain for more than one or two cycles. Lots of smoke coming out the exhaust too.

Starting fluid doesn't help and more or less hurts.

Updated compression check at WOT and choke off is 85 PSI, so rings/valves are out.

I'm only seeing two adjustments on the carb itself. One is the idle adjustment, the other is blocked off and can only be turned a few degrees one way or the other. Ill post a pic in a second.

Posted: 3/14/2013 3:24:46 PM EDT

[#15]

You're sure you've got the float adjusted properly?

Not just functional, but riding at the right point?

Posted: 3/14/2013 4:33:53 PM EDT

[#16]

Here's a picture of the side of the carb.

The float and arm is plastic, if there's a way to adjust it it's beyond anything I've seen.

Posted: 3/14/2013 4:59:40 PM EDT

[#17]

Dumb question but did you check the oil level? They do shut down if the level gets low.

Posted: 3/14/2013 5:01:45 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Dumb question but did you check the oil level? They do shut down if the level gets low.

Yup, plenty of it. I even unhooked the ground just in case it was giving a false indication.

Posted: 3/14/2013 5:03:50 PM EDT

[#19]

E15 strikes again. Dis-assemble the carb and soak it.

Posted: 3/14/2013 5:08:17 PM EDT

[#20]

Try pouring a little gas into the carb and see if it will run for a few seconds. If it runs you know its a fuel issue.

Posted: 3/14/2013 5:15:01 PM EDT

[#21]

Your carb is fucked from sitting with old fuel.

When it only ran with the choke, it indicated the main jet was stopped up, probably the idle circuit as well.

Had you torn the carb down and cleaned it, then totally cleaned the tank and fuel lines, and used (installed) a new fuelk filter, it would have been fine.

But now that you have monkeyed with the settings, you need to get the factory manual and set everything back to the proper setings once you clean the carb or put a new one on it.

This is why I drain my fuel system on every small gas motor when done for the day. Fuel today is crap

Posted: 3/14/2013 5:15:46 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
E15 strikes again. Dis-assemble the carb and soak it.

This.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 3/14/2013 5:18:21 PM EDT

[#23]

The crappy carb has caused a slight warping in one of the valves. But if you are careful, you can EASILY grind them to seal again. Of course this means taking the head off which means new head gasket.

I usually go with 600 grit valve grinding compound. The valve springs are relatively easy to compress, you can do it without any special tools. I put a stack of coins between the valve and the bench, then compress the spring top and fish the keepers with a magnet. Examine the valve under magnification to see if there are areas that aren't sealing. Then lap with abrasive...you can chuck the valve stem in a drill and pull the valve into the seat. Grind until you have good contact, then clean and repeat with the other valve.

Reassemble, clean the gasket surfaces and slap a new gasket. IIRC, torque in 4 steps to 18 foot pounds.

The engine I overhauled for my brother (ran it without oil) three years ago is STILL running. Only it has the low oil ignition kill working

. Yeah, both connecting rods and a piston were in pieces

. PhDs... $200 instead of $1200. And my SIL wanted a warranty?

Posted: 3/14/2013 5:18:44 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Your carb is fucked from sitting with old fuel.

When it only ran with the choke, it indicated the main jet was stopped up, probably the idle circuit as well.

Had you torn the carb down and cleaned it, then totally cleaned the tank and fuel lines, and used (installed) a new fuelk filter, it would have been fine.

But now that you have monkeyed with the settings, you need to get the factory manual and set everything back to the proper setings once you clean the carb or put a new one on it.

This is why I drain my fuel system on every small gas motor when done for the day. Fuel today is crap

To my knowledge, there are no settings to monkey with.

I did tear it down, cleaned all the shit out of the bowl, removed the main jet, blew out all accessible passages with carburetor cleaner, put it back together, and it was fine last night.

As I posted above, There are only two adjustment points, neither of which I attempted to adjust.

My guess at this point is that something was damaged by carburetor cleaner.

Posted: 3/14/2013 5:20:18 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
The crappy carb has caused a slight warping in one of the valves. But if you are careful, you can EASILY grind them to seal again. Of course this means taking the head off which means new head gasket.

I usually go with 600 grit valve grinding compound. The valve springs are relatively easy to compress, you can do it without any special tools. I put a stack of coins between the valve and the bench, then compress the spring top and fish the keepers with a magnet. Examine the valve under magnification to see if there are areas that aren't sealing. Then lap with abrasive...you can chuck the valve stem in a drill and pull the valve into the seat. Grind until you have good contact, then clean and repeat with the other valve.

Reassemble, clean the gasket surfaces and slap a new gasket. IIRC, torque in 4 steps to 18 foot pounds.

The engine I overhauled for my brother (ran it without oil) three years ago is STILL running. Only it has the low oil ignition kill working

. Yeah, both connecting rods and a piston were in pieces

. PhDs... $200 instead of $1200. And my SIL wanted a warranty?

If the replacement carb doesn't fix it, my buddy is getting a new chinese freight motor on his pressure washer.

Posted: 3/14/2013 5:22:18 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Your carb is fucked from sitting with old fuel.

When it only ran with the choke, it indicated the main jet was stopped up, probably the idle circuit as well.

Had you torn the carb down and cleaned it, then totally cleaned the tank and fuel lines, and used (installed) a new fuelk filter, it would have been fine.

But now that you have monkeyed with the settings, you need to get the factory manual and set everything back to the proper setings once you clean the carb or put a new one on it.

This is why I drain my fuel system on every small gas motor when done for the day. Fuel today is crap

I've been running a fuel cutoff on my stuff forever. Cut the fuel out, let it run dry if I'm done for the day.

Doesn't fucking matter anymore. My snowblower's carb gummed the fuck up just for giggles on this shit fuel. Let the gas sit a month and it's fucking trash.

Dumped a remaining gallon into my car. One gallon into ten. Fucking car stalled out on me.

Fuck this shit-ass corn piss asshole excuse for goddamn motor fuel, and fuck whoever came up with it.

Posted: 3/14/2013 5:27:46 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:

The crappy carb has caused a slight warping in one of the valves. But if you are careful, you can EASILY grind them to seal again. Of course this means taking the head off which means new head gasket.

I usually go with 600 grit valve grinding compound. The valve springs are relatively easy to compress, you can do it without any special tools. I put a stack of coins between the valve and the bench, then compress the spring top and fish the keepers with a magnet. Examine the valve under magnification to see if there are areas that aren't sealing. Then lap with abrasive...you can chuck the valve stem in a drill and pull the valve into the seat. Grind until you have good contact, then clean and repeat with the other valve.

Reassemble, clean the gasket surfaces and slap a new gasket. IIRC, torque in 4 steps to 18 foot pounds.

The engine I overhauled for my brother (ran it without oil) three years ago is STILL running. Only it has the low oil ignition kill working

. Yeah, both connecting rods and a piston were in pieces

. PhDs... $200 instead of $1200. And my SIL wanted a warranty?

If the replacement carb doesn't fix it, my buddy is getting a new chinese freight motor on his pressure washer.

Don't. The low compression sounds like valve issues. Honda rings just don't wear out, they do a MUCH better job at cross-hatching the bores and use rings which don't eat themselves. Unlike the Harbor Freight motors. Pressure washers run at high loads, anything other than a Honda or Kohler isn't worth the trouble. If it has a Honda, it has a CAT, Comet or other quality pump on it.

Ethanol is HARD on valves, especially on carb engines like this one. When it was running poorly, the intake valve was hit with drops of ethanol which can warp it. Also, ethanol tends to erode the sealing faces. Lapping the valves is cheap and easy fix.

Can you hear leakage through the muffler or intake when slowly pulling through a compression stroke? That would be the sign of a valve issue.

Getting the valves out of there and cleaning the stem can also help.

Always run the carb dry on a pressure washer. Hondas have this feature for a reason. Also running the tank dry is a good measure.

You have a new carb on order, lapping valves is far cheaper.

Posted: 3/14/2013 5:28:10 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Your carb is fucked from sitting with old fuel.

When it only ran with the choke, it indicated the main jet was stopped up, probably the idle circuit as well.

Had you torn the carb down and cleaned it, then totally cleaned the tank and fuel lines, and used (installed) a new fuelk filter, it would have been fine.

But now that you have monkeyed with the settings, you need to get the factory manual and set everything back to the proper setings once you clean the carb or put a new one on it.

This is why I drain my fuel system on every small gas motor when done for the day. Fuel today is crap

To my knowledge, there are no settings to monkey with.

I did tear it down, cleaned all the shit out of the bowl, removed the main jet, blew out all accessible passages with carburetor cleaner, put it back together, and it was fine last night.

As I posted above, There are only two adjustment points, neither of which I attempted to adjust.

My guess at this point is that something was damaged by carburetor cleaner.

A good soaking will go further than just blowing out with the carb cleaner.

Posted: 3/14/2013 5:30:41 PM EDT

[#29]

You can't get an accurate compression test on that engine. Many newer small engines have automatic compression release to aid starting. You can't spin the engine fast enough to disengage the ACR during starting.

May be nothing wrong with the engine. Clean plug, spray some carb cleaner or brake cleaner in the intake & give it a pull.

Posted: 3/14/2013 5:35:07 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

I've been running a fuel cutoff on my stuff forever. Cut the fuel out, let it run dry if I'm done for the day.

Doesn't fucking matter anymore. My snowblower's carb gummed the fuck up just for giggles on this shit fuel. Let the gas sit a month and it's fucking trash.

Dumped a remaining gallon into my car. One gallon into ten. Fucking car stalled out on me.

Fuck this shit-ass corn piss asshole excuse for goddamn motor fuel, and fuck whoever came up with it.

I feel your pain

. I installed fuel valves on all my engines.

But I have also developed an ethanol removal process for all the pump gas I buy (Pure Fuel is great but EXPENSIVE). How?

Since most gas is E10, I put 1% distilled water in the raw E10. Shake it for 5 minutes, let settle. Now decant the gasoline off into an empty container, what is left is the 1% water and about 5% ethanol. Use this for starting fires, it is 160 proof.

Repeat again, 1% distilled water, shake, let settle and decant. This gets the rest of the ethanol, I usually get 95% or more of the ethanol by volume, accounting for water.

Now the gasoline still has a tiny bit of water and ethanol, it is cloudy. You can let this settle out overnight if cold enough and decant OR you can dry it over dehydrated Epsom Salt. Bake Epsom Salt at 400F for a few hours. Let cool in a covered glass jar. You need about 2 tablespoons per gallon of wet gasoline. Let this sit overnight, then filter through disposable coffee filters. The Epsom Salt does not dissolve in gasoline, it absorbs its weight in water.

Voila, pure gasoline. Works great in all my gear. Cheap and just a little work on your part. Although some may think you are making meth, any gear head will understand.

Posted: 3/14/2013 5:40:35 PM EDT

[#31]

Shit gas + old carb gasket. Clean out all gas, replace fuel lines and install new carb. It should run just fine. Buy "small engine gas" its like the old leaded gas of yesteryear, doesnt go bad. Costs a arm and a leg, but has no alcohol in it to fk things up. DO NOT PULL THE HEAD. It is increadbly rare for them to have a valve seat issue. 99.9% of the time its bad gas plugging things up or the magneto goes bad, you have proven that spark is there so fix the carb.

Posted: 3/14/2013 6:23:27 PM EDT

[#32]

It just. fucking. started.

Purging the water from it and it fired. Given that it didn't have water flow I immediately shut it off, but it started, ran, and sustained.

I pulled my arm off for hours, 5 leisurely pulls and it starts up.

I love fixing shit. I fucking HATE Fixing shit like this.

Posted: 3/15/2013 3:59:53 AM EDT

[#33]

Nice! Run some Seafoam through it to finish cleaning out whatever was clogged in the carb. That's all it was.

Posted: 3/15/2013 5:08:12 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
You can't get an accurate compression test on that engine. Many newer small engines have automatic compression release to aid starting. You can't spin the engine fast enough to disengage the ACR during starting.

May be nothing wrong with the engine. Clean plug, spray some carb cleaner or brake cleaner in the intake & give it a pull.

Correct.

The automatic compression release will only allow the engine to show 50-75 lbs. compression while cranking unless you loosen the exhaust rocker arm to disable the system.

Since the engine runs now, compression is OK.

Posted: 3/15/2013 12:13:36 PM EDT

[#35]

I got home today, fired it up on the first pull, runs with the choke off like it's supposed to, and has more ass than it did before.

Ran it for a solid hour with no problems.

I have no fucking clue how it fixed itself, but... ok?

And yes my buddy is going to get a lesson in how to run the gas out of his shit so he doesn't ruin it.

Posted: 3/15/2013 12:44:23 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
I got home today, fired it up on the first pull, runs with the choke off like it's supposed to, and has more ass than it did before.

Ran it for a solid hour with no problems.

I have no fucking clue how it fixed itself, but... ok?

And yes my buddy is going to get a lesson in how to run the gas out of his shit so he doesn't ruin it.

You sprayed shit in there that sometimes works immediately, but can also take time to work. It worked. Whatever clog you had passed, and now she's groovy.

Or in other words, don't look a gift rifle in the bore.

Posted: 3/15/2013 12:53:13 PM EDT

[#37]

Flooding

Install inline fuel shutoff valve

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Honda small engine... halp

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