Define Straw Purchase

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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:04:16 AM EST

I saw this post from a few years back. But I have another question. Is it a "Straw Purchase" for a FFL to sell multiple stripped lowers to someone who intends to build rifles for someone other than their self?

Thanks for your time and trouble.

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:07:18 AM EST

[#1]

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:10:19 AM EST

[#2]

Quoted:
I saw this post from a few years back. But I have another question. Is it a "Straw Purchase" for a FFL to sell multiple stripped lowers to someone who intends to build rifles for someone other than their self?

Thanks for your time and trouble.

View Quote

Maybe. The dude filling out the 4473 likely has more to worry about with being an unlicensed manufacturer though.

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:12:34 AM EST

[#3]

S·traw·Purchase

Straw Purchase

Verb, Noun too

nounish: Purchase of Straw Gunz; plural noun: Straw Purchaseii

Definition: Unconstitutional.

Happy mr ATF?

In before familiar

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:12:57 AM EST

[#4]

The 4473 specifically stays gifting rifles is ok....

Unless the Man wants to pinch you, then it's totally not.

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:13:10 AM EST

[#5]

straw
noun: straw; plural noun: straws

1. dried stalks of grain, used especially as fodder or as material for thatching, packing, or weaving.

"a straw hat"

a pale yellow color like that of straw.

"a dull straw color"

2. a single dried stalk of grain.

"the tramp sat chewing a straw"

purchase
to buy (property, goods, etc.) : to get (something) by paying money for it

I dont see how this relates to guns??

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:13:52 AM EST

[#6]

Quoted:
I saw this post from a few years back. But I have another question. Is it a "Straw Purchase" for a FFL to sell multiple stripped lowers to someone who intends to build rifles for someone other than their self?

Thanks for your time and trouble.

View Quote

does the ffl know the guy is buying to build them for someone else (if i were an ffl with that knowledge i would cover my own ass and refuse the sale)? also buying to build and sell runs up against "manufacturing" rules, so my opinion would be it would be a straw purchase (on behalf of the buyer / middle man / wanna be manufacture), dealing in firearms without an 01 fflmanufacturing without an 07 ffl, not engraving your manufacturing marks. seems it would be a pretty bad situation to be involved in.

i know the whole myob bullshit, but if i were the ffl in this case i would explain this to the "buyer", and because of this i would not feel comfortable selling to him. ymmv.

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:14:39 AM EST

[#7]

If you're asking in the context of question 11a on the 4473, the ATF helpfully explains it right on the 4473 form...

Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party. ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANS- FEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer “NO” to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer “YES” to question 11.a. However, you may not transfer a firearm to any person you know or have reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g), (n), or (x). Please note: EXCEPTION: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b.

View Quote

If a guy is buying lowers with the intent to build them into rifles and sell them then he should have a manufacturing license. If the FFL knows the guy is buying the lowers to build them and resell them and the guy isn't a manufacturer then he should not allow the sale.

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:16:19 AM EST

[#8]

Heard that. Just want us both to stay outta tha stink. But getting him 5 to 6 stripped lowers and lpk for his personal use would be OK???

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:19:35 AM EST

[#9]

Here's a link where you can complete a straw purchase. It's totally legit.

http://www.amazon.com/Evriholder-PS-C-100PK-Flewi-Straws-100-Pack/dp/B008AFCVUE

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:24:31 AM EST

[#10]

Quoted:
I saw this post from a few years back. But I have another question. Is it a "Straw Purchase" for a FFL to sell multiple stripped lowers to someone who intends to build rifles for someone other than their self?

View Quote

The 4473 form instructions lay out what is generally considered a straw purchase.

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:25:44 AM EST

[#11]

Quote History

Quoted:
Heard that. Just want us both to stay outta tha stink.

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The manufacturing part refers to the lower receiver itself. The straw purchase is buying the lower and giving/selling it to someone who may not legally purchase/own/possess/etc a firearm.

It's perfectly okay to give guns as gifts or sell them to legal recipients.

Unless you're just fishing on arfcom to see how many people think any law limiting firearm ownership is unconstitutional. Which, a better question would be "my cousin has a bullshit restraining order on him from his ex. Is it okay if I let him use my 30/30 to shoot some hogs since he's unemployed and needs food for his kids". That would be a more efficient way to troll arfcom. You get freedom, "bullshit" laws, ex's and a fudd gun all rolled into one. Bonus points if you can work in a transsexual, a shot dog and a pic of the ex.

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:26:43 AM EST

[#12]

I thought they made a decision that regardless of prohibitions or not, you couldn't buy a gun for a gift.

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:27:46 AM EST

[#13]

If you know you are building them to give to people who would otherwise be unable to purchase a gun through a background check, then yes, that's a straw purchase.

If you have no reason to believe these people wouldn't be able to own firearms, then it's gifting.

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:28:12 AM EST

[#14]

Quote History

Quoted:
If a guy is buying lowers with the intent to build them into rifles and sell them then he should have a manufacturing license. If the FFL knows the guy is buying the lowers to build them and resell them and the guy isn't a manufacturer then he should not allow the sale.

View Quote

Hold on, I'm pretty sure he would only be a "manufacturer" if he was buying 80% lowers and machining them out. A stripped lower is legally considered to be a finished firearm and can be transferred as such. He may run the risk of being an unlicensed "dealer" if he's selling them as private sales for profit, but not a manufacturer.

I don't think I'm wrong, but tell me if I am.

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:29:58 AM EST

[#15]

Quote History

Quoted:

Hold on, I'm pretty sure he would only be a "manufacturer" if he was buying 80% lowers and machining them out. A stripped lower is legally considered to be a finished firearm and can be transferred as such. He may run the risk of being an unlicensed "dealer" if he's selling them as private sales for profit, but not a manufacturer.

I don't think I'm wrong, but tell me if I am.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
If a guy is buying lowers with the intent to build them into rifles and sell them then he should have a manufacturing license. If the FFL knows the guy is buying the lowers to build them and resell them and the guy isn't a manufacturer then he should not allow the sale.

Hold on, I'm pretty sure he would only be a "manufacturer" if he was buying 80% lowers and machining them out. A stripped lower is legally considered to be a finished firearm and can be transferred as such. He may run the risk of being an unlicensed "dealer" if he's selling them as private sales for profit, but not a manufacturer.

I don't think I'm wrong, but tell me if I am.

I am under the impression that buying a lower and assembling it into a complete rifle intended for resale is still considered manufacturing. It's odd that technically the "rifle" is manufactured twice in this case (first as a lower, then as a complete rifle) but I don't try to apply logic to the way ATF operates.

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:30:51 AM EST

[#16]

In! Hi mr. ATF man!

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:34:49 AM EST

[#17]

You cannot build lowers into rifles and sell them if you are not a Type 07 FFL... Period.

You can build lowers into rifles and give them away as gifts, no cash may be exchanged.

You can build a lower into rifle, use it for a while, and decide to sell it.

I would not get into the habit of buying guns in your name, and having them leave your possession / ownership.

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:39:43 AM EST

[#18]

If you are buying a lower for someone who could not legally buy one themselves, it's a straw purchase, illegal.

If you are buying a lower to assemble with the intent to sell to someone else, you are an unlicensed dealer, also illegal.

If you are buying a lower to assemble and give to a friend with absolutely no money changing hands, that's perfectly legal.

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:41:31 AM EST

[#19]

Really is an odd first post.

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:43:00 AM EST

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:

You can build a lower into rifle, use it for a while, and decide to sell it.

View Quote

Like to see some law on this. Say a guy bought a lower and built a rifle out of it. Fired it once and then sold it 2 months later. Unless the ATF could prove the guys intent, there's no way they'd win a case against the guy unless he dimes himself out on the internet or something. Where in the law does it say "a while" is how long you must own something before you are allowed to sell it? Sure, they could establish intent of you're making / selling all the time and it's a pattern of behavior, but one rifle? Don't see it.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:43:01 AM EST

[#21]

Is the person who will end up with the gun(s) a prohibited person? If not, then it's not a straw purchase.

For example, my Mom bought a gun at a gun show, but forgot to bring her CCW permit. So I took her cash, filled out the 4473, the handed the dealer my permit, and her cash.

Perfectly legit.

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:47:42 AM EST

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:
Is the person who will end up with the gun(s) a prohibited person? If not, then it's not a straw purchase.

For example, my Mom bought a gun at a gun show, but forgot to bring her CCW permit. So I took her cash, filled out the 4473, the handed the dealer my permit, and her cash.

Perfectly legit.

View Quote

You really shouldn't confess to a straw purchase in a threat started by a BATFE agent.

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:49:54 AM EST

[#23]

The guy promises me that the lowers are for his personal use. That he is not going to distribute them to anyone else. But I am still a little leary. I understand the 4473, but I just meet this guy. And the fact that he is an avid builder with a large shop and has others using his shop kinda worries me.

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:51:58 AM EST

[#24]

Quote History

Quoted:
The guy promises me that the lowers are for his personal use. That he is not going to distribute them to anyone else. But I am still a little leary. I understand the 4473, but I just meet this guy. And the fact that he is an avid builder with a large shop and has others using his shop kinda worries me.

View Quote

So, are you a dealer with an FFL? I would say that if you have suspicions about their end use...

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:53:58 AM EST

[#25]

I am definitely not a ATF agent. Just a FFL with a question... I have never sold multiple lowers before. Talking about 5 to 6.

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:56:34 AM EST

[#26]

Quote History

Quoted:
Is the person who will end up with the gun(s) a prohibited person? If not, then it's not a straw purchase.

View Quote

False. Go read the USSC's decision in the recent Abramski case.

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:58:07 AM EST

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:
The guy promises me that the lowers are for his personal use. That he is not going to distribute them to anyone else. But I am still a little leary. I understand the 4473, but I just meet this guy. And the fact that he is an avid builder with a large shop and has others using his shop kinda worries me.

View Quote

You're a licensee? http://www.fflsonly.com/

Posted: 2/18/2016 10:58:32 AM EST

[#28]

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Quoted:
You really shouldn't confess to a straw purchase in a threat started by a BATFE agent.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

Is the person who will end up with the gun(s) a prohibited person? If not, then it's not a straw purchase.
For example, my Mom bought a gun at a gun show, but forgot to bring her CCW permit. So I took her cash, filled out the 4473, the handed the dealer my permit, and her cash.
Perfectly legit.

You really shouldn't confess to a straw purchase in a threat started by a BATFE agent.

It was not a straw purchase. She is not a prohibited person, she gifted me the money, and I gifted her the gun.
I doubt the IRS will be after me for a $300 gift I didn't list on my return last year.
The ATF? No chance.

Besides that:

[Prosecutor] "But you stated on the forum that you took her cash to make the purchase."

[Me] "I was joking."

[Prosecutor] "You're under oath here."

[Me] "I'm aware of that."

[Prosecutor] "So how did you pay for the gun?"

[Me] "I used my money."

Posted: 2/18/2016 11:04:51 AM EST

[#29]

Quote History

Quoted:
You cannot build lowers into rifles and sell them if you are not a Type 07 FFL... Period.

You can build lowers into rifles and give them away as gifts, no cash may be exchanged.

You can build a lower into rifle, use it for a while, and decide to sell it.

I would not get into the habit of buying guns in your name, and having them leave your possession / ownership.

View Quote

I can't count how many times I have done this. Is it illegal?

Posted: 2/18/2016 11:06:31 AM EST

[#30]

Quote History

Quoted:
I thought they made a decision that regardless of prohibitions or not, you couldn't buy a gun for a gift.

View Quote

Gifting is allowed.

A straw purchase is when someone buys a gun while divulging their life story and sounding like creepy moron.

Posted: 2/18/2016 11:07:01 AM EST

[#31]

Quote History

Quoted:

If you are buying a lower for someone who could not legally buy one themselves, it's a straw purchase, illegal.

If you are buying a lower to assemble with the intent to sell to someone else, you are an unlicensed dealer, also illegal.

If you are buying a lower to assemble and give to a friend with absolutely no money changing hands, that's perfectly legal.

View Quote

The recent EA did not define what an unlicensed dealer is. So that is only partially true, since intent can not be proven.

Posted: 2/18/2016 11:07:41 AM EST

[#32]

Quoted:
I saw this post from a few years back. But I have another question. Is it a "Straw Purchase" for a FFL to sell multiple stripped lowers to someone who intends to build rifles for someone other than their self?

Thanks for your time and trouble.

View Quote

Welcome back.

Posted: 2/18/2016 11:08:48 AM EST

[#33]

Quote History

Quoted:
The guy promises me that the lowers are for his personal use. That he is not going to distribute them to anyone else. But I am still a little leary. I understand the 4473, but I just meet this guy. And the fact that he is an avid builder with a large shop and has others using his shop kinda worries me.

View Quote

All you can do is go by the guys word, after that, it's on him.

Posted: 2/18/2016 11:09:50 AM EST

[#34]

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Quoted:

I can't count how many times I have done this. Is it illegal?

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Quoted:

Quoted:
You cannot build lowers into rifles and sell them if you are not a Type 07 FFL... Period.

You can build lowers into rifles and give them away as gifts, no cash may be exchanged.

You can build a lower into rifle, use it for a while, and decide to sell it.

I would not get into the habit of buying guns in your name, and having them leave your possession / ownership.

I can't count how many times I have done this. Is it illegal?

Not illegal to buy and sell guns if you are just "enhancing your collection" meaning you do not buy shit with the intent to turn around and sell it to someone else.

Let's say you buy 5 anderson lowers, and build 5 cheap AR's and sell them.. You are not "enhancing your collection".. People are doing this kind of shit all over Georgia Outdoor News marketplace.

I don't like the idea of guns purchased in my name being in other people's hands. You really never know what's gonna happen with that gun, and if something happens, you'll be the first on the list of people to talk to, should the gun be recovered.

Posted: 2/18/2016 11:09:56 AM EST

[#35]

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It was not a straw purchase. She is not a prohibited person, she gifted me the money, and I gifted her the gun.

I doubt the IRS will be after me for a $300 gift I didn't list on my return last year.

The ATF? No chance.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Is the person who will end up with the gun(s) a prohibited person? If not, then it's not a straw purchase.

For example, my Mom bought a gun at a gun show, but forgot to bring her CCW permit. So I took her cash, filled out the 4473, the handed the dealer my permit, and her cash.

Perfectly legit.

You really shouldn't confess to a straw purchase in a threat started by a BATFE agent.

It was not a straw purchase. She is not a prohibited person, she gifted me the money, and I gifted her the gun.

I doubt the IRS will be after me for a $300 gift I didn't list on my return last year.

The ATF? No chance.

LOL. No. The situation you described is exactly like the example of a straw purchase given right on the 4473.

ETA:

Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party. ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANS- FEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer “NO” to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer “YES” to question 11.a. However, you may not transfer a firearm to any person you know or have reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g), (n), or (x). Please note: EXCEPTION: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b.

Posted: 2/18/2016 11:12:33 AM EST

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:

Like to see some law on this. Say a guy bought a lower and built a rifle out of it. Fired it once and then sold it 2 months later. Unless the ATF could prove the guys intent, there's no way they'd win a case against the guy unless he dimes himself out on the internet or something. Where in the law does it say "a while" is how long you must own something before you are allowed to sell it? Sure, they could establish intent of you're making / selling all the time and it's a pattern of behavior, but one rifle? Don't see it.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

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Quoted:

Quoted:

You can build a lower into rifle, use it for a while, and decide to sell it.

Like to see some law on this. Say a guy bought a lower and built a rifle out of it. Fired it once and then sold it 2 months later. Unless the ATF could prove the guys intent, there's no way they'd win a case against the guy unless he dimes himself out on the internet or something. Where in the law does it say "a while" is how long you must own something before you are allowed to sell it? Sure, they could establish intent of you're making / selling all the time and it's a pattern of behavior, but one rifle? Don't see it.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

There is no "law on this".... Because it is covered under "enhancing your personal collection".. You can buy a gun and decide to sell it later on, but if you are buying guns / building guns with the intent to sell them and make money, you are not within your rights. It's all muddy water, but they aren't going after guys who might sell or trade a couple guns a year. They go after guys who are essentially acting as dealers, but not registered as FFL's, not running background checks, not keeping tabs with the ATF...

Posted: 2/18/2016 11:13:59 AM EST

[#37]

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Quoted:

Gifting is allowed.

A straw purchase is when someone buys a gun while divulging their life story and sounding like creepy moron.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
I thought they made a decision that regardless of prohibitions or not, you couldn't buy a gun for a gift.

Gifting is allowed.

A straw purchase is when someone buys a gun while divulging their life story and sounding like creepy moron.

Tell us more

Posted: 2/18/2016 11:14:10 AM EST

[#38]

Quote History

Quoted:

It was not a straw purchase. She is not a prohibited person, she gifted me the money, and I gifted her the gun.

I doubt the IRS will be after me for a $300 gift I didn't list on my return last year.

The ATF? No chance.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Is the person who will end up with the gun(s) a prohibited person? If not, then it's not a straw purchase.

For example, my Mom bought a gun at a gun show, but forgot to bring her CCW permit. So I took her cash, filled out the 4473, the handed the dealer my permit, and her cash.

Perfectly legit.

You really shouldn't confess to a straw purchase in a threat started by a BATFE agent.

It was not a straw purchase. She is not a prohibited person, she gifted me the money, and I gifted her the gun.

I doubt the IRS will be after me for a $300 gift I didn't list on my return last year.

The ATF? No chance.

Not according to the Abramski decision.
Same situation - the recipient (analagous to your mother ie: not a prohibited person) even went though his own 4473 check later, and the court STILL ruled it a straw purchase.

Posted: 2/18/2016 11:14:13 AM EST

[#39]

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I am definitely not a ATF agent. Just a FFL with a question... I have never sold multiple lowers before. Talking about 5 to 6.

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You should advice your customer that he would be illegally manufacturing firearms, if he has the intent to sell them.

It's not a straw purchase in this case, illegal manufacturing, he needs a type 07 FFL if he wants to build AR's for others and sell them.

Posted: 2/18/2016 11:16:55 AM EST

[#40]

Quote History

Quoted:
Is the person who will end up with the gun(s) a prohibited person? If not, then it's not a straw purchase.

For example, my Mom bought a gun at a gun show, but forgot to bring her CCW permit. So I took her cash, filled out the 4473, the handed the dealer my permit, and her cash.

Perfectly legit.

View Quote

That isn't true. Abramski v. United States. In that case both the straw purchaser and the final recipient weren't prohibited persons and the gun was transferred through an FFL with a background check. It was still a straw purchase.

Posted: 2/18/2016 11:31:25 AM EST

[#41]

OP, if you are an FFL, you need to ask your IOI or get on FFLsOnly.com. There is a lot of bad information that gets passed down in GD.

If a transaction is suspicious, don't do it. Period. That being said, a retail customer buying 5-6 lowers is very common and not something that would normally be a red flag. Plenty of people buy multiple lowers at once. They're cheap and versatile and you can build them at your own pace. Unless he gave you some indication he wanted to build them to resell, I wouldn't jump to the assumption that he's buying them for friends in his shop or that he plans to resell them.

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Quoted:
Is the person who will end up with the gun(s) a prohibited person? If not, then it's not a straw purchase.

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Quoted:
Is the person who will end up with the gun(s) a prohibited person? If not, then it's not a straw purchase.

Incorrect. A straw purchase includes the exact scenario you described. It doesn't matter if the recipient is a prohibited person. You can't purchase a gun on behalf of someone else. Unless you buy it as a legitimate gift, with no money/goods traded in exchange, then it's a straw purchase.

Quoted:
Hold on, I'm pretty sure he would only be a "manufacturer" if he was buying 80% lowers and machining them out. A stripped lower is legally considered to be a finished firearm and can be transferred as such. He may run the risk of being an unlicensed "dealer" if he's selling them as private sales for profit, but not a manufacturer.

Buying a lower receiver and building it into a rifle, then reselling it, is considered manufacturing. You are taking a receiver and building a newly manufactured rifle/pistol, and it requires the proper FFL.

Posted: 2/18/2016 11:35:21 AM EST

[#42]

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LOL. No. The situation you described is exactly like the example of a straw purchase given right on the 4473.

ETA:

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Quoted:

Quoted:

Is the person who will end up with the gun(s) a prohibited person? If not, then it's not a straw purchase.

For example, my Mom bought a gun at a gun show, but forgot to bring her CCW permit. So I took her cash, filled out the 4473, the handed the dealer my permit, and her cash.

Perfectly legit.

You really shouldn't confess to a straw purchase in a threat started by a BATFE agent.

It was not a straw purchase. She is not a prohibited person, she gifted me the money, and I gifted her the gun.

I doubt the IRS will be after me for a $300 gift I didn't list on my return last year.

The ATF? No chance.

LOL. No. The situation you described is exactly like the example of a straw purchase given right on the 4473.

ETA:

Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party. ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANS- FEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer "NO” to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer "YES” to question 11.a. However, you may not transfer a firearm to any person you know or have reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g), (n), or (x). Please note: EXCEPTION: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b.

Try again.

This forum is not a court of law, and I'm not under oath.

Posted: 2/18/2016 11:36:08 AM EST

[#43]

Straw purchase

Posted: 2/18/2016 11:38:55 AM EST

[#44]

Quote History

Quoted:

OP, if you are an FFL, you need to ask your IOI or get on FFLsOnly.com. There is a lot of bad information that gets passed down in GD.

If a transaction is suspicious, don't do it. Period. That being said, a retail customer buying 5-6 lowers is very common and not something that would normally be a red flag. Plenty of people buy multiple lowers at once. They're cheap and versatile and you can build them at your own pace. Unless he gave you some indication he wanted to build them to resell, I wouldn't jump to the assumption that he's buying them for friends in his shop or that he plans to resell them.
Incorrect. A straw purchase includes the exact scenario you described. It doesn't matter if the recipient is a prohibited person. You can't purchase a gun on behalf of someone else. Unless you buy it as a legitimate gift, with no money/goods traded in exchange, then it's a straw purchase.
Buying a lower receiver and building it into a rifle, then reselling it, is considered manufacturing. You are taking a receiver and building a newly manufactured rifle/pistol, and it requires the proper FFL.

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Quoted:

OP, if you are an FFL, you need to ask your IOI or get on FFLsOnly.com. There is a lot of bad information that gets passed down in GD.

If a transaction is suspicious, don't do it. Period. That being said, a retail customer buying 5-6 lowers is very common and not something that would normally be a red flag. Plenty of people buy multiple lowers at once. They're cheap and versatile and you can build them at your own pace. Unless he gave you some indication he wanted to build them to resell, I wouldn't jump to the assumption that he's buying them for friends in his shop or that he plans to resell them.

Quoted:

Is the person who will end up with the gun(s) a prohibited person? If not, then it's not a straw purchase.

Incorrect. A straw purchase includes the exact scenario you described. It doesn't matter if the recipient is a prohibited person. You can't purchase a gun on behalf of someone else. Unless you buy it as a legitimate gift, with no money/goods traded in exchange, then it's a straw purchase.

Quoted:

Hold on, I'm pretty sure he would only be a "manufacturer" if he was buying 80% lowers and machining them out. A stripped lower is legally considered to be a finished firearm and can be transferred as such. He may run the risk of being an unlicensed "dealer" if he's selling them as private sales for profit, but not a manufacturer.

Buying a lower receiver and building it into a rifle, then reselling it, is considered manufacturing. You are taking a receiver and building a newly manufactured rifle/pistol, and it requires the proper FFL.

Show me the ATF definition of 'Manufacturer.' IIRC, it's someone "In the business of manufacturing firearms for sale."

Buying the parts needed to assemble a firearm has not been traditionally considered 'manufacturing.' The recent EA muddled the water some, by allowing the ATF to define 'business of' as it sees fit (which is clearly unconstitutional, and will be challenged...) but it still did not define 'manufacturing.'

Posted: 2/18/2016 12:15:32 PM EST

[#45]

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Quoted:
Show me the ATF definition of 'Manufacturer.' IIRC, it's someone "In the business of manufacturing firearms for sale."
Buying the parts needed to assemble a firearm has not been traditionally considered 'manufacturing.' The recent EA muddled the water some, by allowing the ATF to define 'business of' as it sees fit (which is clearly unconstitutional, and will be challenged...) but it still did not define 'manufacturing.'

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Quoted:
Show me the ATF definition of 'Manufacturer.' IIRC, it's someone "In the business of manufacturing firearms for sale."
Buying the parts needed to assemble a firearm has not been traditionally considered 'manufacturing.' The recent EA muddled the water some, by allowing the ATF to define 'business of' as it sees fit (which is clearly unconstitutional, and will be challenged...) but it still did not define 'manufacturing.'

You're passing off a lot of bad advice in this thread. Assembling AR-15's for resale, whether it be from a stripped lower or just pinning an upper and lower together, is considered manufacturing by the ATF. It requires an 07 FFL. The recent EA had nothing to do with this. It's been ATF's position for years.

Here's a link with some info.

ATF’s long-standing position is that any activities that result in the making of firearms for sale or distribution, to include installing parts in or on firearm frames and receivers, and processes that primarily enhance a firearm’s durability, constitute firearms manufacturing that may require a manufacturer’s license. In contrast, some activities are not firearms manufacturing processes, and do not require a manufacturer’s license.For example, ATF Ruling 2009-1 (approved January 12, 2009) explained that performing a cosmetic process or activity, such as camouflaging or engraving, that primarily adds to or changes the appearance or decoration of a firearm is not manufacturing.
Likewise, ATF Ruling 2009-2 (approved January 12, 2009) stated that installing “drop-in” replacement parts in or on existing, fully assembled firearms does not result in any alteration to the original firearms.Persons engaged in the business of these activities that do not constitute firearms manufacturing need only obtain a dealer’s license.Although installing parts in or on firearms, and applying special coatings and treatments to firearms are manufacturing activities, the definition of “manufacturer” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(10) and 27 CFR 478.11 also requires that a person be “engaged in the business” before the manufacturer’s license requirement of section 923(a) applies.Thus, a person who manufactures a firearm will require a manufacturer’s license if he/she devotes time, attention, and labor to such manufacture as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.

Other ATF letters specifically mention assembling AR-15s and state that if one party manufacturers a receiver and another party installs parts to build a complete rifle, then BOTH parties need 07 FFL's.

Posted: 2/18/2016 12:16:48 PM EST

[#46]

Hi Mr. Fed

Posted: 2/18/2016 12:19:17 PM EST

[#47]

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The guy promises me that the lowers are for his personal use. That he is not going to distribute them to anyone else. But I am still a little leary. I understand the 4473, but I just meet this guy. And the fact that he is an avid builder with a large shop and has others using his shop kinda worries me.

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Seems like the best course of action you should take is to get a big box, put all your past completed 4473s and your FFL license in it, along with a piece of paper that reads "I no longer wish to hold an FFL" and send it to the ATF.

Posted: 2/18/2016 12:20:21 PM EST

[#48]

Quoted:
I saw this post from a few years back. But I have another question. Is it a "Straw Purchase" for a FFL to sell multiple stripped lowers to someone who intends to build rifles for someone other than their self?

Thanks for your time and trouble.

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Posted: 2/18/2016 12:20:59 PM EST

[#49]

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Quoted:
Is the person who will end up with the gun(s) a prohibited person? If not, then it's not a straw purchase.

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Nope, nope, nope. Read the instructions on the 4473, and be careful what you post on the internet.

HINT: Courts are not fond of "sham" transactions. "I gifted a gun" and "she gifted money" is baloney.

I know it, you know it, and you can be damn sure the courts and the ATF are going to see it that way

if they decide you are on their shit list.

Posted: 2/18/2016 12:21:40 PM EST

[#50]

Purchasing a firearm for an individual who is legally prohibited from doing so himself.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Define Straw Purchase (Page 1 of 3)

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