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Posted: 6/25/2017 8:53:40 AM EDT
[#1]
How much does HK charge for real MP5s sold to governments?
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Posted: 6/25/2017 8:59:15 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A properly built MP5 clone is not a cheap proposition. The stamped steel receiver was brought into being because it was cheaper than milling out a big hunk of steel as you saw with the Thompson...but that doesn't mean it's cheap. Creating an MP5 receiver requires a series of stamping operations plus a hand-welding operation. The way H&K did the stamping was never the cheapest route even when they designed the gun in the 60's. At this point with the ubiquity of CNC machines it's cheaper to mill aluminum forgings than to stamp out those steel receivers due to the need to have presses and dies to accomplish all that. And that's just one part. When you really look at the AR15 and how it's designed, you start to understand why Stoner is regarded as a first rate genius right up there with John Moses Browning himself. Stoner was a man with vision and saw a path to making a gun that could be produced at very high quality in very large numbers using technology that was only getting more affordable over time. That's why we can have shitloads of botique manufacturers of AR parts today, because just about all of it can be CNC machined. That's not true with the MP5. The MP5 was designed to the production capability of a fairly large manufacturing concern that had already put significant investment in sheet steel stamping, cold hammer forging barrels, etc. When you really think about it, the AR is approaching the point where just about any machine shop out there can make most of the parts necessary for it. It's turning into the Sten gun...only worlds better. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Don't get me wrong, they are eminently cool and I want one bad. But why can I get a decent quality AR made out of precision machined parts for like $500 bucks and an MP5 clone made of stamped steel and welds costs $1800. 
I know I know, economies of scale, supply and demand, etc. But still they probably cost like 400ish to make if that. I'm shocked some entrepreneur hasn't come along with a quality clone priced at $1000 (with reach of most avid gun owners), they would sell boatloads compared to their current avg price. A properly built MP5 clone is not a cheap proposition. The stamped steel receiver was brought into being because it was cheaper than milling out a big hunk of steel as you saw with the Thompson...but that doesn't mean it's cheap. Creating an MP5 receiver requires a series of stamping operations plus a hand-welding operation. The way H&K did the stamping was never the cheapest route even when they designed the gun in the 60's. At this point with the ubiquity of CNC machines it's cheaper to mill aluminum forgings than to stamp out those steel receivers due to the need to have presses and dies to accomplish all that. And that's just one part. When you really look at the AR15 and how it's designed, you start to understand why Stoner is regarded as a first rate genius right up there with John Moses Browning himself. Stoner was a man with vision and saw a path to making a gun that could be produced at very high quality in very large numbers using technology that was only getting more affordable over time. That's why we can have shitloads of botique manufacturers of AR parts today, because just about all of it can be CNC machined. That's not true with the MP5. The MP5 was designed to the production capability of a fairly large manufacturing concern that had already put significant investment in sheet steel stamping, cold hammer forging barrels, etc. When you really think about it, the AR is approaching the point where just about any machine shop out there can make most of the parts necessary for it. It's turning into the Sten gun...only worlds better. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 8:59:35 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is that why sig went from stamped slides to milled? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is that why sig went from stamped slides to milled? It's one of the reasons. The milled slides are also much more durable...you don't have roll pins to replace every 5,000 rounds (their suggested figure) to keep the pistol in optimum working order. My buddy Todd (RIP) worked at Sig in the pre-cohen era and was there for the transition to milled slides on their guns. He said it was nothing to have a pistol that would shoot 100,000 rounds and still be in excellent working order. It seems the milled slides are better in every way, but the stamped slides are so sought after. Most say its the quality that went into a sig back then that isnt present now. I have a damn near pristine stamped slide p220 and its a beautiful piece. I'll never sell it for that reason plus they're rare. But when I look at it closely I marvel how they stamped the slide, welded on the front and made it look like all one piece. That HAD to be labor intensive. Some of the lore there has truth to it. Cohen did fuck shit up when he took over. That being said, the immediate pre-Cohen guns are the best of the old world QC with the least sub-contracted parts plus the best of the modernized manufacturing techniques. They're excellent guns in terms of quality and reliability. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:02:17 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I must be the luckiest guy around. When Todd went out of the game I bought an SW5 from him for $600 I believe. Thing has been next to flawless using HK stick mags and Asian MP5 mags (Korean I think), and running 115gr Winchester White Box and surplus 124gr subgub ammo. It's not the prettiest, but it sure as shit works. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:04:48 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also, it's not exactly an MP5, but inrangetv did do a video series on assembling a CETME L parts kit with a new receiver flat. It has close enough lineage to the MP5 I think to illustrate that assembly, while not exactly rocket science is way more involved than with an AR.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giZhGNgI26M |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:04:51 AM EDT
[#6]
Die Hard
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:08:57 AM EDT
[#7]
Mainly, because they are hard to make and require some special machinery.
I wonder if anyone has ever built a flat set on a CNC...... |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:26:25 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Evo is Pseudo locking action, heavy weight, and low recoil 9mm conjure magic demons that bring the best shooting characteristics ever. The Evo has no pseudo locking action, and no magic demons. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:27:26 AM EDT
[#9]
Get a real H&K MP5 and you won't think the cheap ass copies are so expensive.
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:29:37 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Get a real H&K MP5 and you won't think the cheap ass copies are so expensive. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:29:50 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The MP5 is obsolete. This isn't saying much but the CZ Scorpion Evo is a better weapon in every way. 
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:32:01 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I fail to understand how American PTRs are sub $1000 these days and MP5 from all over are $1500+ PTR, if you're listening, make an MP5... and ideally charge range-toy money 
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:35:15 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In this thread we figure out who has shot/used a roller lock/delayed platform and those who think blowback PCC are just as good. Yes prices are high for quality builds. Licensing, limited availability of parts and popularity all play a part in costs. @BCV |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:36:30 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:43:15 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think there are any real transferable MP5s. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Get a real H&K MP5 and you won't think the cheap ass copies are so expensive. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:49:04 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
MKIIIs aren't Supras. 
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:55:37 AM EDT
[#17]
I paid close to two for just my parts from RTG. It was a de milled German MP5. I then had the parts kit sent to Ghillebear who brought it back to life. No doubt, he does excellent work. The welds and finish are notches above even an HK original gun. I then sent off the forms and waited nine months. Eventually the stamp came in the mail. I ended up getting the B&T stock for it. Great gun !
 Attached File |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:55:53 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Muh German engineering. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:56:49 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Says the guy that had the burgundy F&F ricer wing edition MKIII. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
MKIIIs aren't Supras. 
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:57:26 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/219075/IMG-20161014-121757648-131727.jpg I got one. Neat little SBR build. It collects a lot of dust. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:59:11 AM EDT
[#21]
OP
I currently am having the dies made to stamp out flats for MP5s since the current offerings are utter shit. Right now I am six figures in on this project. This is just for a flat. The amount of engineering in this flat is insane. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 10:09:40 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP I currently am having the dies made to stamp out flats for MP5s since the current offerings are utter shit. Right now I am six figures in on this project. This is just for a flat. The amount of engineering in this flat is insane.
Seriously, what is your pre-determined pricepoint and has that evolved with what it's costing to get it done? |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 10:32:11 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP I currently am having the dies made to stamp out flats for MP5s since the current offerings are utter shit. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 10:48:24 AM EDT
[#24]
The MP5 is engineered and built by Germans. Lots of parts.
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Posted: 6/25/2017 10:50:34 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you have the time and interest to expand on that point I'd love to hear where you believe the deficits are with the current offerings on the market. Also JW777 thanks for the earlier explanation. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 10:55:15 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. A semi MP5 is rediculous. Rather have a G19 and I am not a Glock fan. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 10:56:22 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 11:00:05 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The MP5 is obsolete. This isn't saying much but the CZ Scorpion Evo is a better weapon in every way. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 11:04:57 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Don't get me wrong, they are eminently cool and I want one bad. But why can I get a decent quality AR made out of precision machined parts for like $500 bucks and an MP5 clone made of stamped steel and welds costs $1800.
I know I know, economies of scale, supply and demand, etc. But still they probably cost like 400ish to make if that. I'm shocked some entrepreneur hasn't come along with a quality clone priced at $1000 (with reach of most avid gun owners), they would sell boatloads compared to their current avg price. Unless a company had some decreased cost of doing business like a tax break or low electric costs, they would be selling at close to current market prices. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 11:10:18 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP I currently am having the dies made to stamp out flats for MP5s since the current offerings are utter shit. Right now I am six figures in on this project. This is just for a flat. The amount of engineering in this flat is insane.
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Posted: 6/25/2017 11:25:07 AM EDT
[#31]
I had two MP5 clones, ergonomics suck, no last round bolt hold open and almost zero modularity. Sold them and got an MPX which is light years ahead of the MP5, buddy has a scorpion and while it's nice also and clearly a better weapon than the MP5 the blow back action is not as smooth as the MPX or MP5. The MP5 is clearly held in a high position based on feelings and not because it's an advanced weapons system that's relevant today.
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Posted: 6/25/2017 11:27:38 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Don't get me wrong, they are eminently cool and I want one bad. But why can I get a decent quality AR made out of precision machined parts for like $500 bucks and an MP5 clone made of stamped steel and welds costs $1800.
I know I know, economies of scale, supply and demand, etc. But still they probably cost like 400ish to make if that. I'm shocked some entrepreneur hasn't come along with a quality clone priced at $1000 (with reach of most avid gun owners), they would sell boatloads compared to their current avg price. Economy of scale |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 11:37:19 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had two MP5 clones, ergonomics suck, no last round bolt hold open and almost zero modularity. Sold them and got an MPX which is light years ahead of the MP5, buddy has a scorpion and while it's nice also and clearly a better weapon than the MP5 the blow back action is not as smooth as the MPX or MP5. The MP5 is clearly held in a high position based on feelings and not because it's an advanced weapons system that's relevant today. I own a lot of examples of Straight blowback 9mm SMG copies/carbines, and none of them come close to the MP5. 1. They don't suppress as well, especially the 9mm AR which is just 9mm shoehorned into a .223 rifle and working within the restraints of it with a marginally heavy enough bolt. Leads to a LOT of port noise when suppressed in my findings. 2. The recoil is much harsher, the beretta CX4 storm especially with a heavy bolt slamming back in a lightweight body. The only thing I have heard of that comes close to a MP5 in recoil and suppression is the MPX from what I've heard and the closest Blowback is the B&T APC series. But that's more expensive than a MP5 and the MPX is unfortunately made by SIG. I'm surprised the "Go be poor somewhere else" image hasn't been posted here, lol. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 11:40:15 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP I currently am having the dies made to stamp out flats for MP5s since the current offerings are utter shit. Right now I am six figures in on this project. This is just for a flat. The amount of engineering in this flat is insane. 
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Posted: 6/25/2017 11:43:52 AM EDT
[#35]
The MP5/40 and MP5/10 have last round bolt hold open and a bolt catch. The MP5 is a very relevant gun today used in yuge numbers.
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Posted: 6/25/2017 11:44:59 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Talk to Toad at Spesual Wepens.  |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 12:02:29 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had two MP5 clones, ergonomics suck, no last round bolt hold open and almost zero modularity. Sold them and got an MPX which is light years ahead of the MP5, buddy has a scorpion and while it's nice also and clearly a better weapon than the MP5 the blow back action is not as smooth as the MPX or MP5. The MP5 is clearly held in a high position based on feelings and not because it's an advanced weapons system that's relevant today. An MP5 weighs 7 pounds and is locked breech. It has low recoil as a result which is nice. Basic physics, no magic engineering. Everything else about the gun sucks badly. The ergos are fully retarded. My B&T TP9 weighs 3 pounds and is also locked breech. Due to its light weight, it does not have as nice a recoil pulse as an MP5 but it is much much smaller than an MP5 in every dimension. Small enough to be holster carried comfortably which is why it actually makes any sense to own one. Anything larger should be rifle caliber. An 8" barrel 5.56 or 300 Blk PDW is FAR more effective and can be as little as 4lbs easily, even with a stock and optic. Subsonic 300 blk from an AR-15 is just as low recoil as a 9mm. An MP5 is a cheap POS stamped sheet metal gun that is slightly nicer than the other POS stamped sheet metal guns of its era. It serves no useful role today other than looking cool and impressing nerds and video gamers. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 12:08:37 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. An MP5 weighs 7 pounds and is locked breech. It has low recoil as a result which is nice. Basic physics, no magic engineering. Everything else about the gun sucks badly. The ergos are fully retarded. My B&T TP9 weighs 3 pounds and is also locked breech. Due to its light weight, it does not have as nice a recoil pulse as an MP5 but it is much much smaller than an MP5 in every dimension. Small enough to be holster carried comfortably which is why it actually makes any sense to own one. Anything larger should be rifle caliber. An 8" barrel 5.56 or 300 Blk PDW is FAR more effective and can be as little as 4lbs easily, even with a stock and optic. Subsonic 300 blk from an AR-15 is just as low recoil as a 9mm. An MP5 is a cheap POS stamped sheet metal gun that is slightly nicer than the other POS stamped sheet metal guns of its era. It serves no useful role today other than looking cool and impressing nerds and video gamers. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 12:20:58 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The MP5 is obsolete. This isn't saying much but the CZ Scorpion Evo is a better weapon in every way. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 12:21:22 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The MP5 is obsolete. This isn't saying much but the CZ Scorpion Evo is a better weapon in every way. 
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Posted: 6/25/2017 12:22:53 PM EDT
[#41]
CZ EVO is mo better.
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Posted: 6/25/2017 12:25:17 PM EDT
[#42]
The most important question though.... scorpion evo in 10mm or mp5 10mm?
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Posted: 6/25/2017 12:26:40 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The most important question though.... scorpion evo in 10mm or mp5 10mm? |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 12:27:33 PM EDT
[#44]
Licensing fees. H&K is in the business to make money, even if they don't make the gun.
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Posted: 6/25/2017 12:27:53 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yet how many B&T TP9's do you see in use versus the MP5, Which subgun showed up in all the pictures of the anti terrorist response in London and other European countries? As well as the TP9, being held in more of a "range toy" status by most American shooters and places that have reviewed it. Any 9mm SMG copy that comes out, immediately gets compared to the King, the MP5. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This. An MP5 weighs 7 pounds and is locked breech. It has low recoil as a result which is nice. Basic physics, no magic engineering. Everything else about the gun sucks badly. The ergos are fully retarded. My B&T TP9 weighs 3 pounds and is also locked breech. Due to its light weight, it does not have as nice a recoil pulse as an MP5 but it is much much smaller than an MP5 in every dimension. Small enough to be holster carried comfortably which is why it actually makes any sense to own one. Anything larger should be rifle caliber. An 8" barrel 5.56 or 300 Blk PDW is FAR more effective and can be as little as 4lbs easily, even with a stock and optic. Subsonic 300 blk from an AR-15 is just as low recoil as a 9mm. An MP5 is a cheap POS stamped sheet metal gun that is slightly nicer than the other POS stamped sheet metal guns of its era. It serves no useful role today other than looking cool and impressing nerds and video gamers. There are more AKs than most other guns too. This doesn't make the AK any less of a piece of shit either. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 12:29:38 PM EDT
[#46]
Yeah but they are so much fun.. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 12:41:20 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryTrue.
MP5 for fun times with friends: 
AR-15 for business time: 
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Posted: 6/25/2017 12:46:51 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. An MP5 weighs 7 pounds and is locked breech. It has low recoil as a result which is nice. Basic physics, no magic engineering. Everything else about the gun sucks badly. The ergos are fully retarded. My B&T TP9 weighs 3 pounds and is also locked breech. Due to its light weight, it does not have as nice a recoil pulse as an MP5 but it is much much smaller than an MP5 in every dimension. Small enough to be holster carried comfortably which is why it actually makes any sense to own one. Anything larger should be rifle caliber. An 8" barrel 5.56 or 300 Blk PDW is FAR more effective and can be as little as 4lbs easily, even with a stock and optic. Subsonic 300 blk from an AR-15 is just as low recoil as a 9mm. An MP5 is a cheap POS stamped sheet metal gun that is slightly nicer than the other POS stamped sheet metal guns of its era. It serves no useful role today other than looking cool and impressing nerds and video gamers. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 12:48:38 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can outshoot you and your g19 with a semi auto mp5 at any competition you'd like (speed, range, whatever) and so could anyone else familiar with both guns. Then we could change it up and you could outshoot me if we switched guns. 4 points of contact>2. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This. A semi MP5 is rediculous. Rather have a G19 and I am not a Glock fan. Or an AR that takes glock magazines, and have a functional bolt catch, better controls, better ergonomics, and personalize it very easily. but you definitely would not be as cool. 
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Posted: 6/25/2017 12:50:31 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you have the time and interest to expand on that point I'd love to hear where you believe the deficits are with the current offerings on the market. The metal they use is basic stamping metal so it work hardens which causes all kinds of problems that worsen with pressure especially around the stress areas. Since it's a shitty metal it wrinkles when folded which needs to be grinder smooth to look nice When are adding two final strikes in our process which will clean it up drastically. We were able to source the exact metal hk used in the original flats. Because of the attention to detail, we are having to stop mid process and send everything to get annealed. Then continue with the process. Even with all this we are doing our hardest to try to keep the prices lower than the lsc flats. |
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