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Posted: 10/9/2017 9:19:43 PM EST
I coach a high school Sporter class 10M 3 position air rifle team, and one of my students is doing something that's driving me nuts.
He shoots a NICE five-shot group that obliterates everything inside the 9 ring...except he's not on the 9-ring, he's consistently about the 6-7 ring at 4:00. Adjust the sights...same place. Adjust the sights again...same place, again! I didn't notice until tonight, but he's got the sights almost firewalled left--maaaaybe six clicks remaining. He's just been adjusting his happy ass left for about six months without mentioning it to me. 
We'd taken a break for summer, tonight was the first night back on the range. I finally saw him do it for five 5-shot groups in a row--no matter where the sights are adjusted, he seems to go right of that. (And, BTW, he's shooting lefty.) What the hell's going on? Sights are secure, receiver's secure...gotta be a technique problem, but I'll be dipped if I can figure out what he's doing. Any ideas? I'm half tempted to kick him off the team, just to save my own frustration levels. 
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Posted: 10/9/2017 9:26:08 PM EST
[#1]
What? Maybe he has the double vision?
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Posted: 10/9/2017 9:28:50 PM EST
[#2]
Cross dominant and shooting with both eyes open?
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Posted: 10/9/2017 9:29:26 PM EST
[#3]
Sounds like he need to learn trigger control or figure how how he shoots and compensate for it. I have done both many times. And know how to call my flyers. Took about 6 months after shooting again after being away from it for about 15 years. Now I can call it when I fucked up right after it goes bang. Luckily for my AR it is typically around MOA when I call it. That one flyer fucks it all up.
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Posted: 10/10/2017 2:25:36 AM EST
[#4]
Step one, check for eye dominance, as mentioned probably cross eye dominant.
Check all your shooters while you're at it. |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 3:13:32 AM EST
[#5]
Some combo of NPoA and trigger squeeze direction.
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Posted: 10/10/2017 4:02:08 AM EST
[#6]
Take a target and draw an overlay of proper sight position relative to the target.
Talk him through it. |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 5:20:18 AM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Take a target and draw an overlay of proper sight position relative to the target. Talk him through it. You understand that the kid is shooting with a proper sight position relative to the target, right? But it's constantly hitting right in a classic expression of cross eye dominance? (Right hand shooters cross eye shoot to the left) It's a parallax issue, not a sight issue. |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 5:54:13 AM EST
[#8]
Harvey Dorfman is your friend.
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Posted: 10/10/2017 7:39:06 AM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Step one, check for eye dominance, as mentioned probably cross eye dominant. Check all your shooters while you're at it. He's cross eye dominant but shooting with dominant eye, that's why he's shooting lefty. |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 7:46:35 AM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"We'd taken a break for summer, tonight was the first night back on the range. I finally saw him do it for five 5-shot groups in a row--no matter where the sights are adjusted, he seems to go right of that. (And, BTW, he's shooting lefty.) " You understand that the kid is shooting with a proper sight position relative to the target, right? But it's constantly hitting right in a classic expression of cross eye dominance? (Right hand shooters cross eye shoot to the left) It's a parallax issue, not a sight issue. And that makes sense it's a parallax issue...but he's already doing what he needed to solve it (I thought). I'm obviously missing something, just can't figure what. |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 7:55:44 AM EST
[#11]
Here's a completely off the wall, hopefully unlikely idea; find out if the kid is looking through the rear sight. With either eye.
If he is right handed, maybe a switch back to right hand position is needed, his left eye dominance might not be strong enough to overcome handedness. Get his eyes checked, too, he might need correction. |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 8:07:34 AM EST
[#12]
Same thing in all 3 positions?
Patch/block the right eye? |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 8:36:29 AM EST
[#13]
That's weird one.
Not a trigger or stance issue because...group size. Let him shoot whichever hand is dominant. Put a blinder in the off eye side of his glasses. That's all I got.
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Posted: 10/10/2017 9:04:43 AM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here's a completely off the wall, hopefully unlikely idea; find out if the kid is looking through the rear sight. With either eye. If he is right handed, maybe a switch back to right hand position is needed, his left eye dominance might not be strong enough to overcome handedness. Get his eyes checked, too, he might need correction. Rechecked eye dominance, still left. Forgot he had eye surgery a month (ish) ago, to fix lazy eye (where they cut the eye muscles and reattach to realign the eye). Might be a factor....
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Posted: 10/10/2017 9:06:04 AM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Same thing in all 3 positions? Patch/block the right eye? Definitely planning on getting some blinders, got a couple of students who can't close just one eye at a time. Didn't know that was a thing. 
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Posted: 10/10/2017 9:11:29 AM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's all I got. 
What's weird is his group wasn't responsive to sight adjustments. 3 clicks up, 5 left...group in the same spot. 3 more up, 3 more left, group in the same spot. Which makes me think it IS a position/sighting issue. I'm going to try blinders and see if that makes a difference. |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 9:14:54 AM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just in prone...so far (all we did yesterday). Definitely planning on getting some blinders, got a couple of students who can't close just one eye at a time. Didn't know that was a thing. |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 9:48:27 AM EST
[#18]
Pick up a few cheap pharmacy eye patches, look like a pirate.
Let him shoot an evening with the eyepatch. Or you can get creative and make a lens blocker to hang on his alleged non shooting side of his Glasses. Supposedly this is more relaxing than an eye patch. Anyone shoot his rifle to see if it's stable. No loose action screws or pressure point on the barrel. I have old CMP guns with barrel tension screws in the fore end. If they're off due to wood movement you'll get a subtle shift. |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 9:54:18 AM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pick up a few cheap pharmacy eye patches, look like a pirate. Let him shoot an evening with the eyepatch. Or you can get creative and make a lens blocker to hang on his alleged non shooting side of his Glasses. Supposedly this is more relaxing than an eye patch. Anyone shoot his rifle to see if it's stable. No loose action screws or pressure point on the barrel. I have old CMP guns with barrel tension screws in the fore end. If they're off due to wood movement you'll get a subtle shift.
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Posted: 10/10/2017 9:57:40 AM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know, right?
What's weird is his group wasn't responsive to sight adjustments. 3 clicks up, 5 left...group in the same spot. 3 more up, 3 more left, group in the same spot. Which makes me think it IS a position/sighting issue. I'm going to try blinders and see if that makes a difference. Reading that, I need to make a mental note to check the mechanical condition of the rear sight. Might be jacked up. Don't think so, but I need to eliminate that. |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 9:58:21 AM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know, right?
What's weird is his group wasn't responsive to sight adjustments. 3 clicks up, 5 left...group in the same spot. 3 more up, 3 more left, group in the same spot. Which makes me think it IS a position/sighting issue. I'm going to try blinders and see if that makes a difference. Something funky is going on with how his eyes are lining up the sights and the bull. But, presuming the sights are moving correctly, and he's lining them up with the target the same way, I don't understand how the POI wouldn't change.
I'm assuming you've had him shoot a different rifle. You've shot his rifle. You've moved the sights on his rifle after you've shot a group and then shot another to insure the sights are actually moving. There has to be a logical explanation |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 10:00:15 AM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, I'm quoting myself. Reading that, I need to make a mental note to check the mechanical condition of the rear sight. Might be jacked up. Don't think so, but I need to eliminate that. 
Yes. You need to isolate all and any variable via scientific method. |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 10:06:35 AM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pick up a few cheap pharmacy eye patches, look like a pirate. Let him shoot an evening with the eyepatch. Or you can get creative and make a lens blocker to hang on his alleged non shooting side of his Glasses. Supposedly this is more relaxing than an eye patch. Anyone shoot his rifle to see if it's stable. No loose action screws or pressure point on the barrel. I have old CMP guns with barrel tension screws in the fore end. If they're off due to wood movement you'll get a subtle shift. Having said that, the rifle is solid. I may take it out this week and put some rounds through it to see if I can duplicate the problem. If I can't, then I know it's a process/position problem. |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 10:06:37 AM EST
[#24]
Strange problem...........how hard would it be to put a scope on a rifle and see what that does to shot placement??
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Posted: 10/10/2017 10:14:26 AM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Strange problem...........how hard would it be to put a scope on a rifle and see what that does to shot placement?? |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 10:16:41 AM EST
[#26]
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Posted: 10/10/2017 10:18:32 AM EST
[#27]
OP follow your gut. Kick him off the team!
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Posted: 10/10/2017 10:31:12 AM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Same thing in all 3 positions? Patch/block the right eye? Opaque blinder that blocks vision but allows the light level to be similar for both eyes will reduce eye fatigue vs a dark patch. |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 12:18:47 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They may make stuff for this purpose.
https://assets3.thrillist.com/v1/image/1758018/size/tmg-facebook_social.jpg Oh indeed I was just being frugal minded to test the youth's problem. |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 12:29:31 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh indeed I was just being frugal minded to test the youth's problem. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
They may make stuff for this purpose.
https://assets3.thrillist.com/v1/image/1758018/size/tmg-facebook_social.jpg Oh indeed I was just being frugal minded to test the youth's problem. Are you sure you belong here?
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Posted: 10/10/2017 12:32:20 PM EST
[#31]
Sounds like the shooter is not achieving sight alignment. Group suggests he has trigger control, so this is the only other possibility.
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Posted: 10/10/2017 12:49:13 PM EST
[#32]
Military press a case of 7.62 until he wears out.
Force the rest of the team to carry a log with him. There is no "I" in team. 
Pull-ups. Always have to do pull-ups. 
Running. 
Running. 
And more running. 
If he still isn't shooting to your standards, repeat PT. |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 3:16:45 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not really scope-capable, but I am going to swap out the rear sight entirely and see what happens. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Strange problem...........how hard would it be to put a scope on a rifle and see what that does to shot placement?? Another option which complicates life, is to set the rifle up for right handed shooting with offset sights for left eye dominance. Scott Medesha set up his high power rifles this way, and it's amazingly easy to adapt. I bet there is a machinist around here that can do that work, not that I'm volunteering anyone ... |
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