3D printer legal question

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 3D printer legal question

Posted: 11/15/2017 7:32:50 AM EDT

So I found a company that will 3D pint any file you send them and then mail it to you, and they can print in metal (aluminum, copper, bronze, steel, titanium, silver, or gold). What would be the legal ramifications for say, sending them a file for a pistol frame or a rifle reciever and having it printed in steel or aluminum? Would I, the sender of the file, be the legal manufacturer, or would they be?

Also, assuming it’s legal, got any files for frames or recievers I can file away for a rainy day?

Posted: 11/15/2017 7:36:00 AM EDT

[#1]

[ATF_Man.Gif]

But tag for learing something

Posted: 11/15/2017 7:36:06 AM EDT

[#2]

Sounds like a wonderful way to establish legal precedence!

Posted: 11/15/2017 7:37:14 AM EDT

[#3]

I'd guess that they cannot do this, but someone else will chime in.

Who is the printer? I may wind up needing some stuff printed in metal at some point.

Posted: 11/15/2017 7:42:33 AM EDT

[#4]

No, they will be the mfg. Same as if you sent someone a 80% lower and had someone else do it for you.

Exception would be if they are printing a 80% or less and you finish the milling.

Posted: 11/15/2017 7:55:59 AM EDT

[#5]

Not an expert but I believe the only legal way to do that is if they have an 07 FFL and transfer it back to you through an FFL.

Posted: 11/15/2017 8:07:38 AM EDT

[#6]

Solution is - buy own printer.

If file produces something that could be considered a finished receiver - that's production. Then shipping it direct is whole nuther issue - the man likely won't like that. To each their own - but that's not a plank I'd walk on. No regulations against shipping / receiving a printer.

Posted: 11/15/2017 8:10:16 AM EDT

[#7]

This is how you introduce the man into your life.

Posted: 11/15/2017 8:16:45 AM EDT

[#8]

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I'd guess that they cannot do this, but someone else will chime in.

Who is the printer? I may wind up needing some stuff printed in metal at some point.

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https://i.materialise.com

https://www.shapeways.com

There are a lot more people who offer printing services but those are the common two online ones.

Posted: 11/15/2017 8:18:28 AM EDT

[#9]

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Quoted:
Solution is - buy own printer.

If file produces something that could be considered a finished receiver - that's production. Then shipping it direct is whole nuther issue - the man likely won't like that. To each their own - but that's not a plank I'd walk on. No regulations against shipping / receiving a printer.

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Last time I looked a DMLS printer with a build box large enough to accommodate an AR lower was around $500k

Posted: 11/15/2017 8:19:42 AM EDT

[#10]

I think they would be the mfr unless they made you an 80%. However I'd like their info as I need some bronze pillow block bearing inserts made to replace babbitt.

Posted: 11/15/2017 8:21:55 AM EDT

[#11]

You're doing it wrong. They are only making you an elaborately printed 'paper weight'

Posted: 11/15/2017 8:22:25 AM EDT

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:
Solution is - buy own printer.

If file produces something that could be considered a finished receiver - that's production. Then shipping it direct is whole nuther issue - the man likely won't like that. To each their own - but that's not a plank I'd walk on. No regulations against shipping / receiving a printer.

View Quote

Have you looked at the cost of a 3d printer capable of truly printing metal and not just a PLA filament with metal powder? Not something a Normal_Guy can afford.

Posted: 11/15/2017 8:25:43 AM EDT

[#13]

What if you were to have them make up something like a P320 chassis, where it's not obvious to a non-"gun guy" that it's a receiver?

Posted: 11/15/2017 8:27:19 AM EDT

[#14]

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I think they would be the mfr unless they made you an 80%. However I'd like their info as I need some bronze pillow block bearing inserts made to replace babbitt.

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Unless they are some pretty complicated geometry you are probably better off just having them machined. Pretty good chance the printed part would have to be machined anyway, depending on geometry and tolerances DMLS may not produce a part that will work directly out of the printer.

Posted: 11/15/2017 8:27:44 AM EDT

[#15]

Quote History

Quoted:
Have you looked at the cost of a 3d printer capable of truly printing metal and not just a PLA filament with metal powder? Not something a Normal_Guy can afford.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Solution is - buy own printer.

If file produces something that could be considered a finished receiver - that's production. Then shipping it direct is whole nuther issue - the man likely won't like that. To each their own - but that's not a plank I'd walk on. No regulations against shipping / receiving a printer.

Have you looked at the cost of a 3d printer capable of truly printing metal and not just a PLA filament with metal powder? Not something a Normal_Guy can afford.

Didn't someone, a year or so ago, print a 'gun' in plastic, and then reinforce the high stress areas with metal?

That would probably be more like an 80% job though.

Posted: 11/15/2017 8:29:38 AM EDT

[#16]

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Didn't someone, a year or so ago, print a 'gun' in plastic, and then reinforce the high stress areas with metal?

That would probably be more like an 80% job though.

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3D Printed 1911 in 10mm

Posted: 11/15/2017 8:49:15 AM EDT

[#17]

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3D Printed 1911 in 10mm

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That was using a direct metal laser sintering machine, far from being affordable for the home user. The cheapest true metal printer I know of is the Metal X, which I think starts around $99k. At that point, better to get a CNC mill and learn how to draw and program.

Posted: 11/15/2017 8:52:39 AM EDT

[#18]

Posted: 11/15/2017 8:59:37 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
https://imgv2-1-f.scribdassets.com/img/document/212818602/original/086b9f6aec/1510261565

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They're for keychains right?!

Posted: 11/15/2017 9:07:39 AM EDT

[#20]

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That was using a direct metal laser sintering machine, far from being affordable for the home user. The cheapest true metal printer I know of is the Metal X, which I think starts around $99k. At that point, better to get a CNC mill and learn how to draw and program.

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Im curious how good their program is at calculating/estimating shrink and what percentage of he time they get a dimensionally accurate part after sintering. Calculating shrink in castings can be a harsh mistress. I would assume its a bit easier with this.

Posted: 11/15/2017 9:21:27 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
So I found a company that will 3D pint any file you send them and then mail it to you, and they can print in metal (aluminum, copper, bronze, steel, titanium, silver, or gold). What would be the legal ramifications for say, sending them a file for a pistol frame or a rifle reciever and having it printed in steel or aluminum? Would I, the sender of the file, be the legal manufacturer, or would they be?

Also, assuming its legal, got any files for frames or recievers I can file away for a rainy day?

View Quote

They would be the manufacturer. And I know that Shapeways will refuse to print anything they can identify as a gun part. There are a few printing services that have their FFLs and are ITAR registered and will print firearms for you, it would have to be transferred through a local FFL. And it would be prohibitively expensive. I know of a company that used a 3D printed aluminum frame for a prototype, it cost them several thousand. I'm sure they've recouped the cost via selling their injection molded production models, but the average consumer isn't going to drop that kind of money on a firearm, especially when other options are readily available.

Posted: 11/15/2017 9:32:23 AM EDT

[#22]

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Unless they are some pretty complicated geometry you are probably better off just having them machined. Pretty good chance the printed part would have to be machined anyway, depending on geometry and tolerances DMLS may not produce a part that will work directly out of the printer.

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I might be better off pouring babbitt but that stuff is getting expensive. I was thinking bronze would last longer.

Posted: 11/15/2017 1:49:22 PM EDT

[#23]

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https://i.materialise.com

https://www.shapeways.com

There are a lot more people who offer printing services but those are the common two online ones.

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That first one was the one I was looking at.

I have a program that was preinstalled on my laptop that lets me design 3D objects to be printed, when you hit “print” you can either print it yourself if you have a 3D printer, or it automatically uploads your design to that company and takes you to their site to order it.

Posted: 11/15/2017 1:50:28 PM EDT

[#24]

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Last time I looked a DMLS printer with a build box large enough to accommodate an AR lower was around $500k

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This. Metal printers are not the kind you build yourself for a few hundred dollars.

Posted: 11/15/2017 1:51:43 PM EDT

[#25]

I wonder if they could "Lease you a 3D printer" for 12 hours?

Posted: 11/15/2017 1:56:12 PM EDT

[#26]

Could you argue that, since they are being paid to do a service, that they are contractors, under your employ? Or does the build have to be 100% with your own hand?

Posted: 11/15/2017 1:57:49 PM EDT

[#27]

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This is how you introduce the man into your life.

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Posted: 11/15/2017 2:02:19 PM EDT

[#28]

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https://imgv2-1-f.scribdassets.com/img/document/212818602/original/086b9f6aec/1510261565

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i was thinking the same, or this to a laser or edm shop

the may not know they are making an illegal item. I wonder how that would go in court.

Posted: 11/15/2017 2:05:12 PM EDT

[#29]

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Could you argue that, since they are being paid to do a service, that they are contractors, under your employ? Or does the build have to be 100% with your own hand?

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imaterialize is in Belgium, so you've got a lot more to deal with than just US firearms laws.

If you used an American company theyd still need an FFL and youd need an approved variance for your FFL for them to manufacture firearms with your info on them.

As as for making a home built firearm, no one can legally do that for you.

Posted: 11/15/2017 2:10:09 PM EDT

[#30]

Wouldn't it just be cheaper to CNC cut it from a block of metal?

Posted: 11/15/2017 2:10:29 PM EDT

[#31]

Dooooooo eeeeeeeet!!!!

Posted: 11/15/2017 2:16:16 PM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:
Could you argue that, since they are being paid to do a service, that they are contractors, under your employ? Or does the build have to be 100% with your own hand?

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They're called 80% lowers for a reason, I think you can figure the rest out on your own.

You're on your own from 81% on...

Posted: 11/15/2017 2:19:27 PM EDT

[#33]

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https://imgv2-1-f.scribdassets.com/img/document/212818602/original/086b9f6aec/1510261565

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Nice keychain bottle opener you got there.

Posted: 11/15/2017 2:59:45 PM EDT

[#34]

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https://imgv2-1-f.scribdassets.com/img/document/212818602/original/086b9f6aec/1510261565

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I've wanted to build an oversized version of that for ages. One 2* the correct size would be a cool paperweight.

Posted: 11/16/2017 7:56:57 PM EDT

[#35]

So another 3D printing gun question, if I have someone 3D print me a sand mold for an AR15 lower, legally speaking it's just a chunk of sand. Correct?