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Link Posted: 2/10/2018 7:55:31 PM EST
[#1]
Just remember when placing concealment to take vegetation and naturally occurring material from BEHIND your position.
Link Posted: 2/10/2018 8:04:01 PM EST
[#2]

“The hell this ain’t the most important hole in the world.  I’m in it.”
Link Posted: 2/10/2018 8:43:46 PM EST
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I have always been fascinated by WWI trench warfare. As a kid, I always figured that they just scraped them out where and when they could, without much engineering. Later, I found some manuals on the topic. Like all manuals, I'm sure they were guidelines, not hard and fast rules. But, it shows the level of thinking that went into these positions. Not as cool as actual pics, but here are some excerpts.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/24999/2018-02-10_11-447305.JPG
View Quote
If you get a chance check out the WWI museum in KC. Really awesome and worth the drive.
Link Posted: 2/10/2018 10:49:43 PM EST
[#4]
Strike 6,

Back in the Ford/Carter years we still had steel pots.
Link Posted: 2/10/2018 10:55:55 PM EST
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Strike 6,

Back in the Ford/Carter years we still had steel pots.
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LOL, sorry...

I'm Bush, Clinton
Link Posted: 2/10/2018 11:23:20 PM EST
[#6]
French 37 1 pounder

Attachment Attached File


Hotchkiss

Attachment Attached File


Stokes trench mortar

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 2/11/2018 7:19:11 AM EST
[#7]
Pakastani jeeps dug in with recoilless rifles

Link Posted: 2/11/2018 7:22:30 AM EST
[#8]
M1A2 in hull down position

Link Posted: 2/11/2018 7:23:23 AM EST
[#9]
Leclerc in hull down position

Link Posted: 2/11/2018 7:30:03 AM EST
[#10]
M9 ACE digging a vehicle fighting position (?)



Link Posted: 2/11/2018 7:35:40 AM EST
[#11]
Link Posted: 2/11/2018 8:09:58 AM EST
[#12]
I’m really “digging” this thread...

Seriously, this is cool stuff.
Link Posted: 2/11/2018 8:26:23 AM EST
[#13]
Now, who has enough memory recall to quote blade-time hours required for various kinds of fighting positions (vehicle and/or personnel)? And what was the expected allocation of engineer assets to prepare a certain amount of coverage (say, for a mech infantry company or tank company frontage)?

Those e-tools are nice for YOU, but aren't going to do much more than put the finishing touches on the real big stuff.
Link Posted: 2/11/2018 9:07:56 AM EST
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
After seeing so many different fortified positions built by other armies around the world, it became painfully obvious to me that this is one area where the US sucks completely at, for a number of reasons:
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I have been saying this for a while.

I remember one of the large bases in Kuwait that had berms placed about 50 meters IN FRONT of the wire fence and the towers were to low to see over the berms.  The guys working in the guard towers literally could not see what was approaching the base and whatever idiot built the perimeter had supplied ready made fighting positions to anyone attacking.  All sorts of critical stuff that should have been located in the interior of the base was located right behind the guard towers with no organic security or ballistic protection.

I remember a special forces base with vegetation taller then a standing man growing right up to the wall.  It was so high that it blocked the view of the road from our towers, 200 meters away.  I at least got the SF SGT MAJ to get some local nationals out there and cut all that stuff down.  I never was able to convince them that the super secret SF/CIA base should have the same lights and wire on top of the exterior walls that the rest of the military base we were connected to had since the lack made us stand out as different from the rest of area.  The solution to that was to install FLIR camera with giant monitors in tower, you know to light up the interior of the towers at night so the enemy could tell exactly what towers were manned, at what times, and silhouette us for snipers.
Link Posted: 2/11/2018 9:23:47 AM EST
[#15]
Now in Contrast Camp Bondsteel in Kosovo, which was built by KBR in a very short time frame, had an outstanding perimeter.  The outer layer was triple strand concertina wire properly staked and wired, several meters behind that was a tall wire mesh fence topped with more c-wire.  Then an outer perimeter road, so Force Protection could check the fence for damage.  Behind the fences was a large berm with towers of varying height so they could see over any close terrain features and with other towers close enough to overlap observation.  There was an inner perimeter rode to move the guard force under cover of the berm both for changing shift without being observed and in case of incoming fire.  There were also vehicle fighting positions at important spots.  Everything important was far from the perimeter and there was plenty of cleared ground behind that line an enemy would have to cross after breaching the fencing/berm.  Lighting was set up to illuminate the whole perimeter and arranged so as not to blind tower guards or cameras.  The light extended out over 300 meters from the wire at night.

There were various electronic gadgets as well, but I will not comment on them since for the most part I didn't have anything to do with them.
Link Posted: 2/11/2018 9:37:03 AM EST
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I can’t remember if it was at NTC or where but someone had a USSR manual that featured how to make a fighting position. Everybody in the Army surely has seen this illustration https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/459941/11B43AE7-D5A7-4927-9AAE-7EF4D3C11062-447390.JPG
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In WW2 the Russians were masters of camouflage and it cost the Germans quite a bit.
Link Posted: 2/11/2018 9:58:40 AM EST
[#17]
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Quoted:
Wow.  Well said and sad too
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
After seeing so many different fortified positions built by other armies around the world, it became painfully obvious to me that this is one area where the US sucks completely at, for a number of reasons:

1.  Our officers don't know history, have never studied enough detailed military history to understand basic fortifications, camouflage discipline, and some of the age-old tactics used for fortified positions.

2.  We don't have any natural enemies on our borders who are a military threat to us.

3.  Our strategic and theater-level force posture is normally focused on air and naval dominance, supporting our allies, logistics, and maneuver if necessary.

4.  We historically have an on-again, off-again force mobilization trend that knee-jerks when we need to deploy for combat, then purges the experience from the ranks during peacetime and rewards sh*tbags and careerist morons who can't rub 2 brain cells together.  Those turds filling leader suits are then the next senior commanders and NCOs to take the new generation of young bloods into war to have the juniors re-learn lessons their older brothers also re-learned the hard way from the last overseas commitment that was conceived by that generation's morons.

There are bunker-trench complexes built in the 1940s that exceed the military understanding and capacity of our current climate by leaps and bounds.

US units are typically very undisciplined when it comes to basic fortifications on FOBs, especially when it comes to where to locate them, how to camouflage them, how to shape the structures, and how to defend them.

This should not be the case because we have volumes of institutional and historical knowledge to study and apply, with more logistics to build than any other nation with both hands tied behind our backs, with good initiative from some junior leaders.

Since the command climate and senior leadership development focus is so corrupted with careerists instead of true students of their craft, we continue to suck in this area.
Wow.  Well said and sad too
I think I would agree.  I was a Marine machine gunner.  It was most normal to be directed to put my MG in the wrong spot with no field of fire.   Sometimes some diplomatic suggestions got taken. Other times it was yea it sucks deal with it those our orders.

Years later I went through national guard OCS.  There wasn’t much training other than saying machine guns cover main approaches and a final protective line and mortars and grenadiers covered deadspace.   You were kind of on your own to envision a proper defense.   Granted I never served as officer let alone an infantry officer.   I hope infantry branch school was much better.
Link Posted: 2/11/2018 10:08:36 AM EST
[#18]
Link Posted: 2/11/2018 11:06:16 AM EST
[#19]
E-tools. Pfft.

Link Posted: 2/11/2018 11:15:26 AM EST
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
With your screen name I would have thought of a different way.
Link Posted: 2/11/2018 11:26:45 AM EST
[#21]
This thread makes me happy that I chose the right MOS.

We used a SEE UNIMOG for grunt work.

Not my pic.



We had people from different units coming out of the woodwork trading stuff to dig for them.

Medical, aviation,mail,cooks a few grunts.
Link Posted: 2/11/2018 12:32:04 PM EST
[#22]
Little appreciated in the role, a bored Malamois makes a handy entrenching tool.

Not my dog, or my backyard. Thank God.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 2/11/2018 2:08:40 PM EST
[#23]
Second Boer War



North Africa WWII

Link Posted: 2/11/2018 2:14:35 PM EST
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Little appreciated in the role, a bored Malamois makes a handy entrenching tool.

Not my dog, or my backyard. Thank God.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/457055/mal-448542.JPG
View Quote
Get a squad of dachshunds and you'll have your own trench system.

Link Posted: 2/11/2018 2:31:59 PM EST
[#25]
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Quoted:
With your screen name I would have thought of a different way.
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Gimme a M3A1, 40lbs CC, 2 blocks of M112, 12 feet of det cord, a M14 w/M81 and a M21. That will make my hole.
Link Posted: 2/11/2018 2:38:12 PM EST
[#26]
Somewhere in Kuwait (Desert Storm).

Link Posted: 2/11/2018 2:39:04 PM EST
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Gimme a M3A1, 40lbs CC, 2 blocks of M112, 12 feet of det cord, a M14 w/M81 and a M21. That will make my hole.
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That is a plan.
Link Posted: 2/11/2018 5:47:54 PM EST
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
That is a plan.
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Way too much effort. You're not problem solving this correctly.
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