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Link Posted: 4/23/2018 2:25:15 PM EDT
[#1]
Interesting discussion. I find also it interesting the Japanese already had this figured out in Naruto.

All joking aside a 3-4 person team that is loosely affiliated is the best option.

1. It's easier to form

2. Communication is easier and harder to detect.

3. Allows for complex ambush. But plans are still small and flexible.

In terms of insurgency imagination is key. Many attacks and ambushes can be made very effective with creative planning. When I was deployed it was often the biggest fear of most soldiers where attacks could be placed. Or how they could be carried out. We felt very lucky at times that ied's weren't placed with more care or patience.

In terms of against government. Not everyone is going to be an enemy. The key would be to blend and attack allies over direct contact with military forces. In other words against non-combatants that are in agreement with the government.

In terms of invasion. Soft targets like support assets. This worked well for the insurgency in Iraq and Afghanistan. Shoot cooks and fuelers. Never give the infantry a reason to dismount.

In disaster relief and societal collapse. Pliable movement and communication is key as well as extra eyes and arms for safety and rescue.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 2:39:43 PM EDT
[#2]
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A system of cells interlinked, within cells interlinked, within cells interlinked.

Within one stem.
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If you're thinking in terms of militias, squads and so on, and not cells, you've already lost.
A system of cells interlinked, within cells interlinked, within cells interlinked.

Within one stem.


Only half-joking. In the Information Age, something like that would probably be the most effective analogue to a militia. Cell-style organization, comprised of regular people well-trained with their own equipment, able to be sent in to bolster regular forces where needed or act as irregulars in domestic scenarios. And an enemy can’t just raid the local PD or Sheriff’s Office and knew who they all are and murder them.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 2:52:46 PM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:
American Law Enforcement took the role of militia you speak of. Uniformed, armed, with standards maintained by the states, with reporting to the Feds, etc....
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I strongly disagree, especially in the political context. The militia is a large mass of citizens who are only citizens when not in service. This is what allows it to serve as a check, since it cannot be used as a tool of oppression against the people at large and has the capacity to fight. LEAs are select organizations, much like standing armies, which is what the militia is intended both not to be and to counter, if necessary. LEAs are also, at least in the U.S., civilian organizations and do not serve military functions which are essential to the militia. The militia also brings manpower to the table which can take the strain off of civilian agencies, such as during something like the Dorner manhunt or a disaster scenario. It's functions are well outside of the scope of modern civilian LE.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 3:01:19 PM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:
Our last use of militia was the Span-Am with volunteer units like the Rough Riders. It was a cluster fuck and lead to the creation of the NG in 1903.
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That wasn't militia. Volunteer units are a different matter. What you're talking about is the volunteer system for raising armies used until the Dick Act, which was very inconsistent from a quality perspective. The NG system replaced that. The militia was already in substantial decline by that point. Some States retained their militias despite the creation of the NG, which during the world wars proved to be a very sound decision. Many States scrambled to reorganize their militias during this period, as the wars stripped them of all State military forces and they actually found that they needed to use them for a variety of purposes. After the wars, they adopted an all-volunteer SDF model, which is a proven failure as a model.

Also, the last combat use of the militia that I've heard of was on the border with Mexico during the 1910s fighting alongside the U.S. Army during a sizeable skirmish (Battle of Nogales, IIRC). Arizona State Militia.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 3:01:27 PM EDT
[#5]
Unless the militia was cooperating with our military to repel an invading force or something it would be guerilla tactics. IEDs ambushing small forces assasinations shooting motherfuckers in the face when they come to load you on the train. If the militia were cooperating with mil we would probably just have a draft.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 3:03:46 PM EDT
[#6]
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Most of human history had no value on life and war was fought all out. You invaded subjugate, loot, pillage, rape, and kill.

That is not approved of by the West at the moment.

Look at how we fight now. We won't target certain locations because it is a center of worship.
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Even using modern Western standards of conduct (post-Westphalian), which I largely agree with as a Christian, insurgencies have failed more often than not. The U.S. itself has fought many in the last century and defeated them all except the ongoing one in Afghanistan.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 3:07:01 PM EDT
[#7]
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First things first.
Bubba needs to drop about 50 to 80 pounds. Be able to sprint, run, and maneuver through adverse conditions and even in inclement weather.

Heavy 6 and the neck beard boys will have to ditch the little Debbie and snacks from the magazine pouches and replace with magazines.

That should come first and foremost, never mind assembling fire teams...
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Link Posted: 4/23/2018 3:31:09 PM EDT
[#8]
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The guys who have fantasies of being the Right Hand of God and slaying the enemy wholesale just crack me up.

Combat’s tough enough with a fit, organized and well trained military.

Go ahead Bubba, start flinging rounds down range without understanding small unit tactics, logistical support or CAS/arty/mortars, and reinforcements and see how long till you catch a bullet.
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your absolutely right however when comes to it what else should bubba do? bend knee? its not entirely impossible for militia to take on trained well equipped army, you will just pay a high cost.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 3:40:03 PM EDT
[#9]
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I can't remember who said it, but the summary is along the lines of:
 "Beginners think of tactics, more experienced people think of logistics."

I would think that logistics, and communication would be the first things that the local militia should consider.  Then onto things like table of organization and equipment, fire team, rifle squad, tactics and so on.

You fight with the equipment and people you have, not with the equipment and people you WISH you had. (again, I can't remember who said the original quotation of the preceding idea )
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Study Lettow-Vorbeck in WWI Africa to truly grasp logistics.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 3:51:48 PM EDT
[#10]
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You'll be under surveillance the entire time.  They rewind the footage, see where you came from, and SWAT Teams will have high risk warrants for your arrest within hours, to be executed ASAP, as they seal off the area with bearcats and orders for all the well-trained public school serfs to shelter in place while they deal with you.

The guys on the SWAT Teams actually work out and shoot regularly, run through shoot houses, and most full time teams have hundreds of warrants under their belts.

Your dynamic, inflict damage on the enemy with harassment and ambush fantasy will be over within 24 hours.
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Interesting how places with universal CCTV coverage like London have unsolved murders, terrorist attacks, just outrageous levels of crime in general.  Mind telling me what just happened in the news with their murder stats?  Say, in relation to a large city in the northeastern US?
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 3:52:08 PM EDT
[#11]
A militia shouldn't be ad hoc, it needs to be formed, organized and trained before the situation arises.

Due to the limited logistical capabilities, it should be limited to a narrowly defined geographical area. This will also enable the unit to make use of its knowledge of the terrain and demographics.

Each cell should be separate, preferably less than 6 men who know each other well. Family members are preferred.

Despite the division into cells, there needs to be a way to communicate intel within the organization. A small team still needs to take orders and relay information to a chain of command, at least at a regional level.

There needs to be a solid plan to evacuate the area if things go awry. The unit needs a safe space to regroup and reorganize, like Pakistan for the Taliban.

Objectives need to be kept simple; like "observe troop movements at intersection X" or "sabotage railways in sector X" or "execute collaborators in town X". Avoid complex plans or objectives that require a great deal of "chatter" in your lines of communication.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 4:04:08 PM EDT
[#12]
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Quoted:

Even using modern Western standards of conduct (post-Westphalian), which I largely agree with as a Christian, insurgencies have failed more often than not. The U.S. itself has fought many in the last century and defeated them all except the ongoing one in Afghanistan.
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Even using modern Western standards of conduct (post-Westphalian), which I largely agree with as a Christian, insurgencies have failed more often than not. The U.S. itself has fought many in the last century and defeated them all except the ongoing one in Afghanistan.
Did you just claim the US has won all of the insurgencies we've fought?  Ya, that explains a lot.  Care to explain how we won in Vietnam, Korea, and Iraq?

Quoted:
A militia shouldn't be ad hoc, it needs to be formed, organized and trained before the situation arises.

Due to the limited logistical capabilities, it should be limited to a narrowly defined geographical area. This will also enable the unit to make use of its knowledge of the terrain and demographics.

Each cell should be separate, preferably less than 6 men who know each other well. Family members are preferred.

Despite the division into cells, there needs to be a way to communicate intel within the organization. A small team still needs to take orders and relay information to a chain of command, at least at a regional level.

There needs to be a solid plan to evacuate the area if things go awry. The unit needs a safe space to regroup and reorganize, like Pakistan for the Taliban.

Objectives need to be kept simple; like "observe troop movements at intersection X" or "sabotage railways in sector X" or "execute collaborators in town X". Avoid complex plans or objectives that require a great deal of "chatter" in your lines of communication.
Again, that hierarchy and line of communication is exactly how the enemy will track and eliminate militia cells.  I get it, you're european so it's probably harder for you to grasp individualism.  But, no that is a guaranteed way to fail.  Or even be manipulated by the chain of command (if say the enemy infiltrates the upper echelons) to be ineffective.

Mil & LEO's can afford hierarchy cuz they got the logistics and tools to play that game.  Us plebs on the ground at risk from local gestapo types have a lot less infrastructure and defenses in place to CYA
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 4:12:29 PM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:
First things first.
Bubba needs to drop about 50 to 80 pounds. Be able to sprint, run, and maneuver through adverse conditions and even in inclement weather.

Heavy 6 and the neck beard boys will have to ditch the little Debbie and snacks from the magazine pouches and replace with magazines.

That should come first and foremost, never mind assembling fire teams...
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Heh! Quite true.

The guys with $2000 in XXL multicam and III% patches better be planning to fight in place. Their gear is writing checks their bodies can’t cash.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 4:15:02 PM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:

Did you just claim the US has won all of the insurgencies we've fought?  Ya, that explains a lot.  Care to explain how we won in Vietnam, Korea, and Iraq?

Again, that hierarchy and line of communication is exactly how the enemy will track and eliminate militia cells.  I get it, you're european so it's probably harder for you to grasp individualism.  But, no that is a guaranteed way to fail.  Or even be manipulated by the chain of command (if say the enemy infiltrates the upper echelons) to be ineffective.

Mil & LEO's can afford hierarchy cuz they got the logistics and tools to play that game.  Us plebs on the ground at risk from local gestapo types have a lot less infrastructure and defenses in place to CYA
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Militarily you can easily argue we won in Vietnam and Iraq.

Failing to support our ally in the former 2 years after we left and not actually having an ally in the later is what doomed us.

Korea was the defense of one country against the invasion of another.  Nothing insurgent about it.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 4:15:48 PM EDT
[#15]
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Neighborhood defense in times of need. That's about it.
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Neighborhood defense in times of need. That's about it.
Pretty much this. This role wouldn't be overly difficult to fill for like-minded neighbors who possess a moderate amount of common sense, self-reliance skills, and mindset.
Seriously, what other role do you think modern Americans will band together as part of an armed group to accomplish. Even that would be hard for some people to pull off well once they've had it thrust upon them.
For "some" people, yes. However, I think in most of rural or light suburban areas, there are at minimum 25% of residents who could pull off "neighborhood defense" competently. In that role, AR15s are the best firearms to have, IMO. After that, obviously pistols are necessary and a few people should be proficient in precision shooting from a distance as well.

Beyond that, having the support of most of the residents in that geographic area is a must, which helps with the logistical and intelligence gathering aspects too.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 4:21:44 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:
American Law Enforcement took the role of militia you speak of. Uniformed, armed, with standards maintained by the states, with reporting to the Feds, etc....
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In order decide how to best utilize a (the) militia, there needs to be at least some common understanding of certain expectations and limitations of such a force.  The  militia in the United States primarily having access to a relatively restricted set of arms by military standards necessitates that it is put to use with consideration of the limitations inherent to it.

I propose that a first step would be trying to identify and define the composition and makeup of a very basic building block- the rifle squad.

The mission of the Marine Corps rifle squad is to locate, close with and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver or to repel the enemy's assault by fire and close combat.

Can we realistic expect most militia forces, likely put together ad hoc in today's age, to be assigned the same mission statement? I greatly doubt it.

Does anyone have ideas on what an appropriate mission statement (Not to be confused with a tasking statement) for a militia rifle squad in the US should be?
If the militia is ad hoc, then we're already talking failure right there.  A militia needs to be organized, properly trained, have standards, have actual officers with real authority, be subject to military discipline, be properly armed and equipped, be uniformed, have common standards, have a chain of command, etc.

Swiss militia units have access to machine guns, grenades, artillery, combat aircraft, armoured vehicles, etc.  The just don't take that stuff home with them, but rather, they check it out at their unit's armoury when needed for service or training.  U.S. militia units in the past also tended to issue weapons from an armoury rather than be exclusively "run what ya' brung".  While there was a legal requirement to procure arms for service (which within decades became obsolete, since it was specific to flintlock smoothbores and pre-Minie ball flintlock rifles, and also called for bore sizes different from what soon became the U.S. standard), typically it was inadequate to rely upon that, and States maintained armouries for which to equip the militia, and they sent period reports to the Federal government regarding what they had.

If one is to actually bother with creating doctrine, there needs to be a militia worth a damn.  This means uniform Federal standards, with States raising organized militias of a useful size that are actually armed and which meet these standards, which should be of a sound nature.  In order to raise and maintain a suitable militia, conscription is required, as it almost always is when it comes to the militia, regardless of what country one is talking about.  The legal basis for such conscription already exists, fortunately.

What is this militia for?  Well, you have different core missions.  One is to act as a check against the Federal government if it were to engage in tyranny or usurpation of power (it already does, but let's say it is to deter something even more egregious); it can also form a basis for unofficial resistance if a State were to become tyrannical.  Being part of the domestic system of checks and balances, giving the public the means to engage in the ultima ratio is one of the most traditional functions in free countries for the militia, including the U.S. and colonies in the past.  This includes resistance to regular and reserve armed forces, as well as armed civilian organizations (such as LEAs).

Another core function is defence against foreign military threats acting against any of the United States or their colonies.

It also needs to be able to deal with internal armed threats, such as rebellion, insurrection, terrorism, etc.

Dealing with natural and man-made disasters (including firefighting), providing relief, search and rescue, maintaining law and order, etc. is also important.

Yet another mission is providing security for places, persons, and events (Alaska's militia, for example, is used to provide security for the Iditarod; California's militia helps provide security and MP functions for Los Alamitos AAF and the JTC).

Enforcement of civilian laws is also an important function, and this can include providing manpower or special capabilities to aid civilian LE, dealing with riots and unrest, dealing with civilian LE that are breaking the law, and more.  A great example of when they militia would be useful in this context is the Dorner incident.  Instead of depriving the area of large amounts of LE, making a bunch of LE work overtime at great public expense, etc., the militia could have been used to provide most of the manpower, with civilian LE simply taking the lead with a few personnel, with the rest of the LEOs continuing their usual jobs.  Also, the Constitution allows Congress to authorize the President to use the militia to enforce Federal laws.

Border security is yet another potential mission, to include coastal and air defence.

Guarding prisoners and dealing with prison riots and such that go beyong what civilian authorities can handle is another mission.

In the case of occupation, whether by domestic forces in a tyrannical context, foreign forces, or internal military threats which result in, say, rebels taking controul or territory, the militia can also engage in guerilla warfare and train other citizens to do the same.  Sabotage before it gets to this point is also a potential mission (the Swiss, for example task their militia with destroying things that could be of use to the enemy wer ethe enemy to seize an area).

In theory, if suitably trained, with safeguards to prevent excessive depletion, during a major war like WWII the militia could potentially also serve as the basis for raising an army if the NG and reserves are not sufficient, with minimal time and effort needed for training, allowing for rapid raising of such a force and without the inadequate training which led to much higher casualties than were necessary during WWII.  In essence, it could be a citizen army-in-being.

Older personnel could also take part in civil defence functions, maintain equipment, and such.

So the militia may have to deal with regular, reserve, and irregular troops; insurgents; terrorists; rebels; criminals; rioters; prisoners; armed civilian organizations; and disasters.  The rifle squad in infantry units should be equipped accordingly.  This does necessitate more than small arms.  It would probably be best to stick with the TO&E used by either the Army or Marine Corps for such a thing, unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise.  Non-infantry units should still have the capacity to act as infantry if necessary; the militia should, ideally, have a doctrine of "every man a rifleman" (like the Swiss do) and perhaps "everyman a grenadier" (such as by utilizing rifle grenades).

I do like the Swiss post-war model in use until they adopted the "Soldier 95" model in the 1990s, which radically altered the militia's character.  It, in turn, is an evolution of a model going back centuries.  War Secretary Knox and President Washington both supported Federal legislation making this model the basis for militia regulations in the U.S., but Congress was only willing to pass the Milita Act of 1792.  In this model, all able-bodied male citizens are potentially liable for service (the doctrine currently via the unorganized militia concept), and with today's population, a certain percentage would be required to serve in the militia from age 20-60 (for privates; officers and NCOs to 65); Knox and Washington proposed giving some credit for Federal military service, and past a certain point, removing any but emergency obligations from veterans, which has some merit.  Those 20-36 (and any volunteers under 20) would be in a first tier, those 36-49 in a second tier, and those 49-60 in the third tier, with officers and NCOs all being first tier but assigned as needed to the tiers of private soldiers. Main maneuver forces would be from the first tier, supporting forces that could be used for more static defence would be in the second tier, and forces engaged in rear support, civil defence, etc. would be drawn mostly from the third tier.

Upon being indoctrinated, a person would have to go to a recruit school, go to a specialist school for technical jobs, and then go through periodic refresher courses, which decrease in frequency and duration in each tier.  Technical jobs would go to recruits already trained or knowledgeable in those fields, or undergoing training or education in them, so that the militia would not need to train them except with regard to those things specific to militia service (the private sector essentially does the training).  No pensions, 401(k)s, etc.  No medical benefits outside of actual service.  Per diem pay for E-1 starts at about what jurors get today, going up based on rank.  Pay is supplemented by income loss insurance (or operating grants for business owners); those who do not experience income loss only get the base pay.  All of this massively reduces personnel costs, according to the Swiss experience.  Something that could be useful is transferring discharged NG personnel to the militia to incorporate their experience.  Providing for local and independent charters could also be useful, with locally chartered units being able to come under local authority (which is how it was done in Britain and to some extent in the colonies).  Small arms and equipment would be maintained at home.
American Law Enforcement took the role of militia you speak of. Uniformed, armed, with standards maintained by the states, with reporting to the Feds, etc....
You are quite right. Additionally, today's volunteer fire departments are a direct descendent of yesterday's Minute Men. They had full-time jobs they worked, but trained on the side with other neighbors and when the bell rang, they dropped what they were doing and responded immediately to the emergency/crisis.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 4:24:20 PM EDT
[#17]
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You are quite right. Additionally, today's volunteer fire departments are a direct descendent of yesterday's Minute Men. They had full-time jobs they worked, but trained on the side with other neighbors and when the bell rang, they dropped what they were doing and responded immediately to the emergency/crisis.
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not quite, minuteman reported and stayed.  vollys put out the fire and go home that night.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 4:31:47 PM EDT
[#18]
The concept of interlocking "cells", in my opinion, is the most manageable and probably the most effective.  However, I don't believe that three persons is sufficient to adequately accomplish most any task(s).  Each of these "cells" has to be capable, and available to conduct, support, most small unit missions.  When you're working in a 360° environment a little more self-sustainment would be required.  The numbers would be the same for any roll.

Cell Basic Organization –

Team Leader -
Leadership training/experience
Most competent
Able to direct assigned, follow-up, similar and sustained missions independently
Communications/Coordination with other teams/infrastructure
Logistics

2nd -
2nd most experienced
Best at hands-on
Shows best potential for further responsibilities
Capable to take over current assignment(s)

3rd -
Security/Overwatch/Intelligence
The “Gray Man”
Capable of accomplishing each cell task on their own with minimal supervision

4th -
Apprentice
Tethered to 2nd
Capable and willing to learn
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 4:40:46 PM EDT
[#19]
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Again, that hierarchy and line of communication is exactly how the enemy will track and eliminate militia cells.  I get it, you're european so it's probably harder for you to grasp individualism.  But, no that is a guaranteed way to fail.  Or even be manipulated by the chain of command (if say the enemy infiltrates the upper echelons) to be ineffective.

Mil & LEO's can afford hierarchy cuz they got the logistics and tools to play that game.  Us plebs on the ground at risk from local gestapo types have a lot less infrastructure and defenses in place to CYA
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The whole point of the stay behind movement was to have a hierarchy in place before the SHTF.

You're clueless.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 4:43:06 PM EDT
[#20]
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I'm not worried about a technological power (or Da Gummint).  I'm worried about looters, starving urbanites, and being unable to maintain food/water/shelter/meds.  Again, some people are thinking "Red Dawn", when they should be thinking "One Second After".

I'd much rather have a community-based organization of folks who can help maintain local security, order, and infrastructure, when 9-1-1 stops responding and the food trucks stop arriving at Publix...than any fantasy of stay behind guerrillas.
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The obvious answer is get both.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 4:45:37 PM EDT
[#21]
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https://cdn.division.zone/uploads/2014/08/the-division-shd-logo.jpg

Only half-joking. In the Information Age, something like that would probably be the most effective analogue to a militia. Cell-style organization, comprised of regular people well-trained with their own equipment, able to be sent in to bolster regular forces where needed or act as irregulars in domestic scenarios. And an enemy can’t just raid the local PD or Sheriff’s Office and knew who they all are and murder them.
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Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 4:55:37 PM EDT
[#22]
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Even using modern Western standards of conduct (post-Westphalian), which I largely agree with as a Christian, insurgencies have failed more often than not. The U.S. itself has fought many in the last century and defeated them all except the ongoing one in Afghanistan.
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Quoted:
Most of human history had no value on life and war was fought all out. You invaded subjugate, loot, pillage, rape, and kill.

That is not approved of by the West at the moment.

Look at how we fight now. We won't target certain locations because it is a center of worship.
Even using modern Western standards of conduct (post-Westphalian), which I largely agree with as a Christian, insurgencies have failed more often than not. The U.S. itself has fought many in the last century and defeated them all except the ongoing one in Afghanistan.
We haven't won shit. The last insurgency we won was the Philippine Insurrection because we neutralized them the same way we did the Indians. We lost every conflict with an insurgency even when the Viet Cong were crushed during Get because the NVA outright replaced them. We have not won in Iraq, Afghanistan, or Syria.

To win insurgencies you either have the populace join your side, which we did to a degree in the Philippines (other than brutally killing them) or you outright measure them by the linchpin and call it a day and wash your hands afterwards for dinner.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 5:02:28 PM EDT
[#23]
Think more along the lines of British WW2 "Auxiliary Units", a.k.a. Stay Behind Parties, the Home Front predecessors to the S.O.E.

Lie low, stay out of sight, observe the enemy, attack weak points, regroup, repeat, etc.

Face on frontal assault, no way Jose!!

Read books such as "War of the Flea" & "Total Resistance" (the Swiss Army book, to avoid confusion with similar titles)
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 5:04:43 PM EDT
[#24]
lol
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 5:08:25 PM EDT
[#25]
maybe this is irrelevant to OP's intent for the thread, but i'm not seeing anything about that which might be the most important component of the putative militia effort: information warfare, psyop, agitprop, etc.  shooters would be important, but only insofar as their action was persuasive.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 5:21:28 PM EDT
[#26]
@Sylvan

Where do the various militias that popped up in Ukraine after the Russkies made their move fit into all this? I know they were later Incorporated into the Ukrainian National Guard but that wasn't the case in the early days of the fighting.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 5:58:17 PM EDT
[#27]
We're in the middle of a huge and pervasive Information Operations campaign right now, and we are losing badly.

Militias aren't going to do us much good at this point, even if it were possible to get more than two or three overweight guys to stop bitching about 9mm vs. 45 or 1911 vs. Glock and get together long enough to train.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 6:00:23 PM EDT
[#28]
I thought the guys in Red Dawn did a good job of it.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 7:10:53 PM EDT
[#29]
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@Sylvan

Where do the various militias that popped up in Ukraine after the Russkies made their move fit into all this? I know they were later Incorporated into the Ukrainian National Guard but that wasn't the case in the early days of the fighting.
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I really don't know enough about that situation to have any sort of informed opinion.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 7:45:28 PM EDT
[#30]
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We haven't won shit. The last insurgency we won was the Philippine Insurrection because we neutralized them the same way we did the Indians. We lost every conflict with an insurgency even when the Viet Cong were crushed during Get because the NVA outright replaced them. We have not won in Iraq, Afghanistan, or Syria.

To win insurgencies you either have the populace join your side, which we did to a degree in the Philippines (other than brutally killing them) or you outright measure them by the linchpin and call it a day and wash your hands afterwards for dinner.
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Most of human history had no value on life and war was fought all out. You invaded subjugate, loot, pillage, rape, and kill.

That is not approved of by the West at the moment.

Look at how we fight now. We won't target certain locations because it is a center of worship.
Even using modern Western standards of conduct (post-Westphalian), which I largely agree with as a Christian, insurgencies have failed more often than not. The U.S. itself has fought many in the last century and defeated them all except the ongoing one in Afghanistan.
We haven't won shit. The last insurgency we won was the Philippine Insurrection because we neutralized them the same way we did the Indians. We lost every conflict with an insurgency even when the Viet Cong were crushed during Get because the NVA outright replaced them. We have not won in Iraq, Afghanistan, or Syria.

To win insurgencies you either have the populace join your side, which we did to a degree in the Philippines (other than brutally killing them) or you outright measure them by the linchpin and call it a day and wash your hands afterwards for dinner.
Thinking about that you could compare to what many are referring to in the way of insurgency here to how 20's gangsters carried out their activities (aside from the fame). I've read a few articles that say the downfall hinged on the loss of popular opinion.  Basically as long as the people are on your side they will help hide and protect you.  This also explains part of the reasoning of the left in demonizing the right.  If they succeed and the gunowner v gov scenario plays out.  Nobody will protect you if they think you are evil in your convictions.

For invasion scenarios this is a given that the insurgency will have public opinion on their side.  As long as they don't get carried away against countrymen.

This is part of the reason you could say things went in our favor in Iraq. They were shooting and intimidating their people; we were giving them stuff.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 8:07:09 PM EDT
[#31]
Think less "fire and manuever" and more "sugar in fuel tank".
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 8:48:10 PM EDT
[#32]
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When I think of modern American militia's purpose, this is what I envision. Most militia members would serve as an extra rifle where it's needed and not as door kickers.
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I ain’t standing guard for no fucking soldier. I might get shot and it’s boring as shit. -the militia
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 8:48:41 PM EDT
[#33]
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Cite?

I'm pretty sure we only started winning after a certain Prussian drilled the Continental Army into a professional fighting force.
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That makes for a super shitty national myth.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 9:03:44 PM EDT
[#34]
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You'll be under surveillance the entire time.  They rewind the footage, see where you came from, and SWAT Teams will have high risk warrants for your arrest within hours, to be executed ASAP, as they seal off the area with bearcats and orders for all the well-trained public school serfs to shelter in place while they deal with you.

The guys on the SWAT Teams actually work out and shoot regularly, run through shoot houses, and most full time teams have hundreds of warrants under their belts.

Your dynamic, inflict damage on the enemy with harassment and ambush fantasy will be over within 24 hours.
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Squad is too much.

Security is compromised.  12 yahoos running around?  Huge footprint.

The 3 man team is the core.

As for the misison;

"The mission of the team is to inflict maximum damage upon the enemy while minimizing risk to the team and community by means of harassment, ambush and decentralized action."
This appears to be a solid mission statement.
You'll be under surveillance the entire time.  They rewind the footage, see where you came from, and SWAT Teams will have high risk warrants for your arrest within hours, to be executed ASAP, as they seal off the area with bearcats and orders for all the well-trained public school serfs to shelter in place while they deal with you.

The guys on the SWAT Teams actually work out and shoot regularly, run through shoot houses, and most full time teams have hundreds of warrants under their belts.

Your dynamic, inflict damage on the enemy with harassment and ambush fantasy will be over within 24 hours.
you mean militia shouldn’t count on being able to drop their package bombs off at fedex like the Austin bomber? That sucks. Time for more beer and stories of grandeur.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 9:30:43 PM EDT
[#35]
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@Sylvan

Where do the various militias that popped up in Ukraine after the Russkies made their move fit into all this? I know they were later Incorporated into the Ukrainian National Guard but that wasn't the case in the early days of the fighting.
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@carlos87 how did the people’s militias of eastern Ukraine resist the soros backed Kiev?
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 9:47:25 PM EDT
[#36]
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@carlos87 how did the people’s militias of eastern Ukraine resist the soros backed Kiev?
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By being backed by Putin.

Allegedly.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 10:07:28 PM EDT
[#37]
Not that long ago I was having a similar conversation with some buddies of mine that were team guys and hey had some interesting things to say about it.

We all agreed the best use for a modern militia would be disaster first response and an auxiliary to LE/National Guard.
If done right, with a group of motivated guys that would actually devote the time and effort to train and learn could be a true asset to the community.

Having a well trained, capable civilian force could act as a force multiplier if a large scale terrorist attack ever happened or if a terrorist cell took advantage of a natural disaster.
A group that trains with law enforcement and assists from time to time and can also operate on their own would be ideal.

With the above said the problem, as I see it is:

The political environment around the word "militia" is toxic and needs to change. Also, getting law enforcement agencies to see the benefits of having trained, capable people is also difficult. I'd imagine most agencies would either be distrustful or feel threatened by such.

Egos. I looked into a group once and what I found was all the people involved were good guys and most had their hearts in the right place but leadership was either "empire building" and only cared about getting numbers so they had guys "under their command".

Most of the leaders had little or no training or skills and their above mentioned egos make them reluctant to allow real training because it would show the group how little the leader knew.
The number of guys that could actually get out and do something was small compared to the number of guys that wanted to sit around and bitch about the government and drink beer.

It's a real shame because I think there is still a place for a well regulated militia but there isn't one that I know of that isn't either a bunch of Bubbas or antigovernment.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 10:26:23 PM EDT
[#38]
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First things first.
Bubba needs to drop about 50 to 80 pounds. Be able to sprint, run, and maneuver through adverse conditions and even in inclement weather.

Heavy 6 and the neck beard boys will have to ditch the little Debbie and snacks from the magazine pouches and replace with magazines.

That should come first and foremost, never mind assembling fire teams...
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ROTFLMAO; And, yes, My fat ass needs to loose 50 Lbs., too!!
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 10:28:44 PM EDT
[#39]
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 10:42:49 PM EDT
[#40]
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Ya... no.  But we're done here.  If you don't get it, I'm not going to waste my time trying to change that unfortunate fact.  You have fun organizing your 'legit militia' and try not to get murdered in your sleep when the gestapo find all your names in a file at your Company Commanders house.  Which probably would fly a freakin "state militia flag" right out front lol.  Jesus
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Actually, they are roles that have throughout history been engaged in by militia.

In order to do what you propose they still need to be large enough, organized, trained, officered, well-equipped, disciplined, armed with more than small arms, etc.  The force needs to already exist and be capable.  Organizing it ad hoc once the crisis is underway is a recipe for failure; at best, it imposes many difficulties.
Ya... no.  But we're done here.  If you don't get it, I'm not going to waste my time trying to change that unfortunate fact.  You have fun organizing your 'legit militia' and try not to get murdered in your sleep when the gestapo find all your names in a file at your Company Commanders house.  Which probably would fly a freakin "state militia flag" right out front lol.  Jesus
The idea is to have the militia large enough where this sort of thing is not feasible.  Nationwide, it should be multiple times the size of the Federal ground forces, including regular, reserve, and NG components.  I'm not sure how you think you can make it effective as an institution in a fragmented, untrained, unofficial capacity.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 10:44:13 PM EDT
[#41]
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The whole point of the stay behind movement was to have a hierarchy in place before the SHTF.

You're clueless.
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Again, that hierarchy and line of communication is exactly how the enemy will track and eliminate militia cells.  I get it, you're european so it's probably harder for you to grasp individualism.  But, no that is a guaranteed way to fail.  Or even be manipulated by the chain of command (if say the enemy infiltrates the upper echelons) to be ineffective.

Mil & LEO's can afford hierarchy cuz they got the logistics and tools to play that game.  Us plebs on the ground at risk from local gestapo types have a lot less infrastructure and defenses in place to CYA
The whole point of the stay behind movement was to have a hierarchy in place before the SHTF.

You're clueless.
Because Swede's have 16 years of experience countering insurgencies with bleeding edge technology and doctrine. Oh, wait, no they don't.

The Irish in the 1990s had a grasp of the nature of insurgency against a technological foe. You've got about three decades of reality-based doctrine to catch up on.

But please, tell us more about NATO stay-behind forces based on 1960s doctrine and intended to fight against a non-technological foe.

The concepts that have evolved in conflicts against the British in Ireland, the Israeli government and the US in Afghanistan/ Iraq cannot be ignored. The technological assets available to forces involved in COIN completely change the nature of effective resistance.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 10:44:55 PM EDT
[#42]
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maybe this is irrelevant to OP's intent for the thread, but i'm not seeing anything about that which might be the most important component of the putative militia effort: information warfare, psyop, agitprop, etc.  shooters would be important, but only insofar as their action was persuasive.
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^This guy gets it^
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 10:45:31 PM EDT
[#43]
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This is why Bigstick's idea is asinine and guaranteed to fail.

You waiting around for a squad sized element to show up could take hours.  Thats plenty of time for whatever opportunity you were going to take advantage of to disappear, but it does present tons of time for .gov assets to get into the air and find you.  And then track you home and hellfire you or send in JBT's when you're asleep.

The fact that he thinks having this be some formal, legit organization shows how oblivious he is to the realities of how to actually fight an insurgency.

Formality requires organization and organization requires way more record keeping and meetups all of which present opportunities for enemies to gather your info and then, bam you dead.

How militia's worked in Europe/Britain before (or even after) our revolution is irrelevant.

From one latino to another, Amen baby!
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I'm never claimed that the militia was solely about insurgency.  Most of its functions have nothing to do with that.  It should be trained to turn itself into a guerilla force if necessary, but most of its functions are to do tasks like LE, disaster relief, event security, and things like that, and to act as a deterrent to situations that might warrant rebellion or insurrection, among other things.  You're too fixated on the insurgency aspect that you seem to think that's all anyone's talking about.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 10:54:36 PM EDT
[#44]
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Did you just claim the US has won all of the insurgencies we've fought?  Ya, that explains a lot.  Care to explain how we won in Vietnam, Korea, and Iraq?
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The VC were largely defeated in Vietnam.  It was regular troops invading with the U.S. standing by and doing nothing, not even providing logistical aid, which caused the South to be lost.  Korea was a conventional conflict.  The Sunni insurgency in Iraq was largely defeated.

But there are also the two Nicaraguan campaigns, the Dominican campaign, the two Haitian campaigns, dealing with insurgencies post-war in Greece and the Philippines, the earlier Philippine Insurrection and Moro Rebellion, and more such conflicts that most people don't seem to know much about which involved defeating insurgents.  We won all of those campaigns.  While I'm not sure that most of the Indian Wars count in this context (some, like at least one of the Seminole Wars, does, though), pretty much all resulted in U.S. victory.

But apparently I'm the one ignorant of history.  And, again, my comments on the militia only dealt with insurrection to a limited degree; the militia can, should, and has in the past and abroad served other functions, and some of those functions are more probable.  A few are even performed today by the puny little militias that currently exist under the SDF model (which, as I mentioned earlier, is not a good one).
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 10:57:06 PM EDT
[#45]
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We haven't won shit. The last insurgency we won was the Philippine Insurrection because we neutralized them the same way we did the Indians. We lost every conflict with an insurgency even when the Viet Cong were crushed during Get because the NVA outright replaced them. We have not won in Iraq, Afghanistan, or Syria.

To win insurgencies you either have the populace join your side, which we did to a degree in the Philippines (other than brutally killing them) or you outright measure them by the linchpin and call it a day and wash your hands afterwards for dinner.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Most of human history had no value on life and war was fought all out. You invaded subjugate, loot, pillage, rape, and kill.

That is not approved of by the West at the moment.

Look at how we fight now. We won't target certain locations because it is a center of worship.
Even using modern Western standards of conduct (post-Westphalian), which I largely agree with as a Christian, insurgencies have failed more often than not. The U.S. itself has fought many in the last century and defeated them all except the ongoing one in Afghanistan.
We haven't won shit. The last insurgency we won was the Philippine Insurrection because we neutralized them the same way we did the Indians. We lost every conflict with an insurgency even when the Viet Cong were crushed during Get because the NVA outright replaced them. We have not won in Iraq, Afghanistan, or Syria.

To win insurgencies you either have the populace join your side, which we did to a degree in the Philippines (other than brutally killing them) or you outright measure them by the linchpin and call it a day and wash your hands afterwards for dinner.
See my post above.  We've fought in a number of such campaigns between the Philippine Insurrection and Iraq.  Using the tactics you described, the VC were effectively dealt with in areas in which the USMC executed the CAP, which had the Marines living among the population in small units and leading and training local militia forces ("Popular Forces", or PFs).
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 11:07:02 PM EDT
[#46]
We might ought to define militia or at least get OP to say how he is using the word. In the abstract, the militia is all the people with the capability to fight. Historically, in practice, militias served as an adjunct of state or local government and usually consisted of those who mustered when called. I do not consider insurgencies, like the Forest Brothers for example, militias or loose bands of guerilla fighters militias. Others might.

If the militia was to be reformed in the U.S. along historical lines, beginning it with a pro-gun local government in a pro-gun state would be a good starting point. A mayor or commission member could be the captain. I could see this happening with a small town or county in perhaps Texas. It could grow from there, spreading to other towns and counties then to other states. Small  rural local  governments could be an ideal starting point.  Many operate quite loosely and effectively.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 11:07:19 PM EDT
[#47]
Neighborhood Watch?



Block Parties. Big barbecues.

CERT.

Appleseed.

FEMA preparedness presentations at City council meetings.

Volly church security.

Police ride-a-longs.

Patriotic observances.

This is where the real Militia is.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 11:11:22 PM EDT
[#48]
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Quoted:
Not that long ago I was having a similar conversation with some buddies of mine that were team guys and hey had some interesting things to say about it.

We all agreed the best use for a modern militia would be disaster first response and an auxiliary to LE/National Guard.
If done right, with a group of motivated guys that would actually devote the time and effort to train and learn could be a true asset to the community.

Having a well trained, capable civilian force could act as a force multiplier if a large scale terrorist attack ever happened or if a terrorist cell took advantage of a natural disaster.
A group that trains with law enforcement and assists from time to time and can also operate on their own would be ideal.

With the above said the problem, as I see it is:

The political environment around the word "militia" is toxic and needs to change. Also, getting law enforcement agencies to see the benefits of having trained, capable people is also difficult. I'd imagine most agencies would either be distrustful or feel threatened by such.

Egos. I looked into a group once and what I found was all the people involved were good guys and most had their hearts in the right place but leadership was either "empire building" and only cared about getting numbers so they had guys "under their command".

Most of the leaders had little or no training or skills and their above mentioned egos make them reluctant to allow real training because it would show the group how little the leader knew.
The number of guys that could actually get out and do something was small compared to the number of guys that wanted to sit around and bitch about the government and drink beer.

It's a real shame because I think there is still a place for a well regulated militia but there isn't one that I know of that isn't either a bunch of Bubbas or antigovernment.
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What part of Texas are you in? I've worked with a "legit" militia in Missouri for the last couple years and may be moving to Texas for work at the end of next month. I'd love to start putting together something similar down there. The organization I worked with has a good relationship with some county LE agencies, has actually assisted with real-world SAR operations, and gets out and trains several times a month. Our PT isn't where I'd like it to be, but all of our guys are a reasonable weight

There is a very difficult balance to strike, between an overly casual organization with no leadership, and an organization so driven by one or two authoritarians who want to COMMAND, damnit! that they drive out good people. Another challenge is keeping the kooks out. Nothing kills the morale of a sensible bunch of guys faster than a four-hundred-pound nutjob ranting about whatever Alex Jones said last week. Professionalism is essential, and tends to weed out the crazies once they realize we aren't buying their line of BS.

Assembling and maintaining a solid group of people is much more difficult than figuring out doctrine. Leadership is tough, and it's tougher when you're leading unpaid volunteers who can walk away at any time.

There's been some difference of opinion, between those who want to train as straight light infantry, and those who want to train more for MP/SAR/engineer work. I fall decidedly into the latter category. It's not as glamorous, but it's far more realistic. We've done SAR/engineer work for real.

We've had good results using the phrase "defense force" in place of "militia". Much less negative connotation, but I hate that that's even necessary.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 11:17:38 PM EDT
[#49]
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Militarily you can easily argue we won in Vietnam and Iraq.

Failing to support our ally in the former 2 years after we left and not actually having an ally in the later is what doomed us.

Korea was the defense of one country against the invasion of another.  Nothing insurgent about it.
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Militarily?  As in we killed more bad guys?

I guess you could also argue that militarily the Brits won the American Revolution since they undoubtedly killed a lot more of us than we did of them.

At the end of the day, we got our asses kicked in Vietnam for long enough that we lost public support for the war and thus we were forced to leave.  Sure, you can dress it up anyway you want but reality doesn't care about feelings.  And I'm not trying to disparage Vietnam or the guys who have been part of the modern conflicts.  I was part of OEF and my dad served in Vietnam.  I wouldn't call either a success story.
Link Posted: 4/23/2018 11:18:45 PM EDT
[#50]
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Quoted:

The whole point of the stay behind movement was to have a hierarchy in place before the SHTF.

You're clueless.
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Lol triggered
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