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Posted: 12/28/2018 6:31:45 AM EDT
[#1]
pretty sure kitchen FFL is pretty much a no go, have to have a store front.
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Posted: 12/28/2018 6:33:15 AM EDT
[#2]
Zoning laws kill it for most now I think
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Posted: 12/28/2018 6:34:13 AM EDT
[#3]
To do it legally, and I mostly mean tax wise, do the math.
Figure all license fees, FFL, state, if required. All local sales tax license, fees, etc. both city, county and state (whatever is applicable) Plus your time doing all the paperwork. My answer years ago, it wasn’t worth it. I gave up my FFL back in the 90’s when the FFL alone was only $30 for 3 years. By the time I had all the proper paperwork, tax numbers, etc in order to conduct business legally, it simply wasn’t worth it to me. And believe you me, the tax man will find you. 
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Posted: 12/28/2018 6:36:40 AM EDT
[#4]
zoning is the issue
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Posted: 12/28/2018 6:37:41 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Zoning laws kill it for most now I think |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 7:26:31 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Are kitchen counter FFL's pretty much dead? I live in a rural area with no FFL in the area, would be nice to have and do an occassional transfer. Is there any viable side income in the current economy? I already have a C&R FFL But, yeah, they still allow home-based FFLs, as long as zoning says its OK and you really are going to be "engaged in business." During the Obama years, the ATF put out a brochure titled "Do you need an FFL" (or something like that). I would read that and use the answers to study up for your interview. Personally, I wouldn't do it. The few upsides of having your own license are far out-weighed by all the ATF B.S., paperwork, inspections, etc. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 7:35:31 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not hard. It's almost the same form you filled out to get your C&R. The main difference is that you have to submit fingerprint cards for every "responsible person" on the license. There's also an interview stage. An ATF inspector actually comes out to see you and go over all the rules. You'll have to convince the inspector that you're doing this as a business and not just so you can buy guns for yourself. But, yeah, they still allow home-based FFLs, as long as zoning says its OK and you really are going to be "engaged in business." During the Obama years, the ATF put out a brochure titled "Do you need an FFL" (or something like that). I would read that and use the answers to study up for your interview. Personally, I wouldn't do it. The few upsides of having your own license are far out-weighed by all the ATF B.S., paperwork, inspections, etc. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Are kitchen counter FFL's pretty much dead? I live in a rural area with no FFL in the area, would be nice to have and do an occassional transfer. Is there any viable side income in the current economy? I already have a C&R FFL But, yeah, they still allow home-based FFLs, as long as zoning says its OK and you really are going to be "engaged in business." During the Obama years, the ATF put out a brochure titled "Do you need an FFL" (or something like that). I would read that and use the answers to study up for your interview. Personally, I wouldn't do it. The few upsides of having your own license are far out-weighed by all the ATF B.S., paperwork, inspections, etc. I am a home based FFL and the juice is certainly not worth the squeeze. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 7:52:52 AM EDT
[#8]
I have always heard it's more trouble than it's worth unless you plan on having a serious business. Years ago a friend of mine got one just because he was shooting competitively and thought it would save him money on gun purchases. He never seemed to have anything good to say about the BATFE from his experience.
At $10 per pop I have probably spent around $1000 with my local FFL over the past 3 years, but I doubt having the FFL would have been worth it. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 8:18:51 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have always heard it's more trouble than it's worth unless you plan on having a serious business. Years ago a friend of mine got one just because he was shooting competitively and thought it would save him money on gun purchases. He never seemed to have anything good to say about the BATFE from his experience. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 8:40:46 AM EDT
[#10]
I completed 99% of the process as a home-based 07 manufacturer (with the intention of adding my 02 SOT, which is just one more piece of paper), only to be thwarted by an HOA board (yup, HOA's are a form of local government and have to approve unless your covenants explicitly allow home businesses).
I'll say this - it was way faster than buying NFA gear as a civilian! 
The process is straightforward. How easy or difficult it is for you is going to depending on your location and the associated state/local laws that would impact any business or specifically an FFL. Fingerprints, background checks, paperwork, an interview with an agent to go over the rules, pretty simple on the BATFE side. Aside from the damn HOA, I live in an unincorporated part (outside city limits) of a county with no zoning or business laws, in a state that doesn't restrict FFL's. Only requirement would have been local sales tax permit and state business inventory taxes. Basically, the BATFE goes down their list of requirements, which is pretty short, and then on down to state and local (county, city, HOA) regulations that would impact their granting the FFL. They don't have the ability to deny you unless you don't meet the requirements, it's "shall issue" versus "may issue". The BATFE has no discretion in process. If you meet the requirements, you get your FFL. Actually making money as a home-based FFL..... is another matter, and one I decided I didn't have the time/willpower to pursue. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 8:51:37 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
pretty sure kitchen FFL is pretty much a no go, have to have a store front. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 8:52:08 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Zoning laws kill it for most now I think |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 8:56:40 AM EDT
[#13]
It wont be a reliable income source.
You might make a little bit at the end of the year when its all said and done, but the time investment would give you a better return if you found some other means to make a few dollars. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 9:02:19 AM EDT
[#14]
Should be pretty easy, no zoning where I live, I looked up the ffl list and there are a couple near me that I hadn't heard about
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Posted: 12/28/2018 9:02:32 AM EDT
[#15]
Much of “how hard” it will be depends on location, as in which BATFE field office handles your application.
Some of the offices/agents are cool and want to work with you. Some are very much not. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 9:03:25 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It wont be a reliable income source. You might make a little bit at the end of the year when its all said and done, but the time investment would give you a better return if you found some other means to make a few dollars. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 9:11:28 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My interest was partnering with an auction house, there are often times when they sell multiple firearms and need an ffl to handle the transfers Maybe if you catch them in a transition period where they've recently lost their previous FFL and are looking for a new one. The first post made it sound like this was a fairly rural area, low population density, etc. How many auction houses are in your area, and how many such transactions do they require an FFL for? Maybe do some research on your local market and what it can bear . I never got into estate stuff until a couple of years ago, and do it only rarely now. I don't even charge for those transfers, just as I don't charge for SAFE Act required private party transfers ( which NY capped the fee for at $10 in the actual legislation). People here often seem to think in threads of this sort that free $20 bills earned for no work will rain down on you, and that any fees higher than that regardless of the work involved are highway robbery, as is anything higher than paying wholesale price for any firearm. We live in interesting time. Like I said, it's usually not the great money-maker you might think it would be. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 9:35:32 AM EDT
[#18]
As a person who reviews a lot of property titles I have noticed that 90% of all covenants and restrictions contain a no firearms businesses clause. I've seen them revised, but only for large companies such as Cabelas or Dicks etc. This may not be an issue for OP, but it is a growing problem for any small FFL.
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Posted: 12/28/2018 9:40:54 AM EDT
[#19]
We have an FFL out of the house. Easy to get, as long as zoning, HOA allows. Very hard to make any money, markup on new guns is very small. We mostly do transfers. Will keep for another year or 2 and then done. Really not worth the time.
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Posted: 12/28/2018 10:02:23 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We have an FFL out of the house. Easy to get, as long as zoning, HOA allows. Very hard to make any money, markup on new guns is very small. We mostly do transfers. Will keep for another year or 2 and then done. Really not worth the time. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 10:13:55 AM EDT
[#21]
I'm waiting to see what comes out of Albany next year now that the Dems control the state Senate. The state Assembly has been passing a raft of anti-gun legislation every year, only to see it stopped by the Senate. Now that they control the whole shebang, I suspect that NY will really be trying to out-do CA for stupid new gun laws. After 25 years it may well be time to hang up the FFL gig for good, depending on how bad things get.
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Posted: 12/28/2018 10:15:58 AM EDT
[#22]
Zoning and you have to have hours at least a day a week scheduled to be open. It can be only a few hours
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Posted: 12/28/2018 10:18:31 AM EDT
[#23]
Not only can you still get a FFL in your home, there are a couple FFL's in apartment complexes I know of.
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Posted: 12/28/2018 10:23:49 AM EDT
[#24]
As an individual Let’s say I transfer 2 guns a month...24 a year and assume $20 per. No way in hell am I screwing around with bound books....ATF...file storage blah blah for that kind of money. But that’s just me
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Posted: 12/28/2018 10:33:32 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm waiting to see what comes out of Albany next year now that the Dems control the state Senate. The state Assembly has been passing a raft of anti-gun legislation every year, only to see it stopped by the Senate. Now that they control the whole shebang, I suspect that NY will really be trying to out-do CA for stupid new gun laws. After 25 years it may well be time to hang up the FFL gig for good, depending on how bad things get. does having a ffl in ny circumvent certain laws? like you can have certain items in your inventory that normies otherwise could not have? stuff like regular mags and ARs? |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 10:33:50 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As an individual Let’s say I transfer 2 guns a month...24 a year and assume $20 per. No way in hell am I screwing around with bound books....ATF...file storage blah blah for that kind of money. But that’s just me Quote HistoryQuoted:
As an individual Let’s say I transfer 2 guns a month...24 a year and assume $20 per. No way in hell am I screwing around with bound books....ATF...file storage blah blah for that kind of money. But that’s just me You'd have to be living in a low population area to only be doing two transfers a month. Which is entirely possible, if that's the sort of area that you live in. I've had bad months for sure over the years, but they're the outliers, not the norm. Deployments when I was in the Guard would cause me to lose some regulars, who would find a replacement while I was away. My transfers consist of customers broken down into roughly thirds: a third are LEOs, a third are regular collectors who are repeat customers, and a third are random people who find me on internet FFL search engines or through word of mouth. Some of those become regulars over time. If OP wants to drum up business, getting on lists of approved FFLs for places like Buds and various FFL search engines will get some foot traffic headed his way. Keeping some basic stuff in stock could also help him, as long as he doesn't tie up too much money into inventory that doesn't move. I keep ammo and a few accessories on hand for the regulars; I used to be located around the corner from the multi-agency county police range, and that drove some of those sales. Now its mainly stuff that guys want that they can't get quickly through mail order or from the traditional brick and mortar places.... I tell people up-front not to expect me to compete with WalMart or Dicks prices..... Quoted:
@tc556guy does having a ffl in ny circumvent certain laws? like you can have certain items in your inventory that normies otherwise could not have? stuff like regular mags and ARs? I keep quite a few standard capacity mags of various brands in stock for LEO sales. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 10:41:51 AM EDT
[#27]
There's no money to be had in just buying guns from a distributor to resell.
Many times I have told people to just check with Grabagun or Buds as their prices will likely be less than what I could sell it for, and I have to add sales tax on top of it. Accessories and things like that have some markup, but no matter what you have, someone will find it for less somewhere on the internet and expect you to match the price. To be honest, the only reason I keep my FFL is because I do Cerakote and laserings and if the gun is there overnight, you gotta have an FFL. We do also keep an SOT, and I do make a few bucks running cans through the business. Transfers are fine with me. Money I make without having to spend anything other than time is better than shelling out thousands a month to keep some things in stock that no one will buy at what I'd have to mark them to just break even. That's just my observation, your mileage may vary. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 10:50:44 AM EDT
[#28]
Zoning is where dreams go to die.
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Posted: 12/28/2018 10:51:04 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Zoning and you have to have hours at least a day a week scheduled to be open. It can be only a few hours |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 10:52:21 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
pretty sure kitchen FFL is pretty much a no go, have to have a store front. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 11:01:44 AM EDT
[#31]
You need a niche to make any money and it won’t be much. Where I find it to be of value is in gunsmithing. It facilitates the transfers and I get to write off my equipment I want for the shop.
In some states you’ll need a variance to operate a business from a residence. This isn’t that expensive or hard to get from your city or county. You’ll need your state tax ID, which isn’t hard to get either. Doing transfers for strangers? Terrible idea. You want a bunch of strangers coming to your house and knowing you have guns? Plus the transfers don’t pay shit. I do transfers or friends and family for free to avoid reporting to state sales tax. Thinking you’ll buy at dealer pricing and sell with low overhead? Not likely going to happen. The dealers only establish ties with commercial brick and mortar store fronts. The bound book is easy to maintain and document. I do the paperwork the same time the gun comes in or goes out. Easy peasy. Having a FFL is awesome though. I don’t have to go deal with the gun store commando or neckbeards. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 11:06:24 AM EDT
[#32]
You're 20 plus years late. Back in the 90s, we were all FFLs. Now you really need to make it a business.
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Posted: 12/28/2018 11:09:39 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I completed 99% of the process as a home-based 07 manufacturer (with the intention of adding my 02 SOT, which is just one more piece of paper), only to be thwarted by an HOA board (yup, HOA's are a form of local government and have to approve unless your covenants explicitly allow home businesses). I'll say this - it was way faster than buying NFA gear as a civilian!
The process is straightforward. How easy or difficult it is for you is going to depending on your location and the associated state/local laws that would impact any business or specifically an FFL. Fingerprints, background checks, paperwork, an interview with an agent to go over the rules, pretty simple on the BATFE side. Aside from the damn HOA, I live in an unincorporated part (outside city limits) of a county with no zoning or business laws, in a state that doesn't restrict FFL's. Only requirement would have been local sales tax permit and state business inventory taxes. Basically, the BATFE goes down their list of requirements, which is pretty short, and then on down to state and local (county, city, HOA) regulations that would impact their granting the FFL. They don't have the ability to deny you unless you don't meet the requirements, it's "shall issue" versus "may issue". The BATFE has no discretion in process. If you meet the requirements, you get your FFL. Actually making money as a home-based FFL..... is another matter, and one I decided I didn't have the time/willpower to pursue. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 11:14:33 AM EDT
[#34]
I have a type 7 that I run out of my house. A few things I have learned through the process:
1. The zoning has to be taken care of first, and this is FAR more difficult than the actual FFL. I had to have a special zoning hearing, and all of my neighbors basically showed up with pitchforks to fight it (although I ended up getting the permit anyway). 2. Once you have the zoning taken care of, the whole process with the ATF is a breeze. It's basically the same as submitting a form 1 or a form 4. 3. The ATF is generally helpful and polite. It's almost as if they WANT you to get an FFL. They were happy to process the application and answer any questions I had. 4. You do not need a storefront, a sign, any inventory, an alarm system, or even a safe. There are not many requirements at all, other than you can't be a prohibited person and you can't have the FFL just to enhance your personal collection. You have to have some sort of business plan, but it can be very basic. 5. The ATF cannot come and randomly search your house at any time. They can do an inspection up to once a year, but typically it is once every three years. The first visit (which is scheduled) counts as an inspection, so they wont be able to come out for at least another year. When they do come out, they will do it at the business hours that you list, which can be just a single hour per week if you want. I was prepared for the ATF to question my intentions and have to "convince" them to let me have an FFL, but that never happened. They were very easy to deal with. I'm not saying that the ATF is my favorite government entity (far from it) but in the case of getting an FFL I really couldn't see it going smoother. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 11:21:57 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a type 7 that I run out of my house. A few things I have learned through the process: 1. The zoning has to be taken care of first, and this is FAR more difficult than the actual FFL. I had to have a special zoning hearing, and all of my neighbors basically showed up with pitchforks to fight it (although I ended up getting the permit anyway). 2. Once you have the zoning taken care of, the whole process with the ATF is a breeze. It's basically the same as submitting a form 1 or a form 4. 3. The ATF is generally helpful and polite. It's almost as if they WANT you to get an FFL. They were happy to process the application and answer any questions I had. 4. You do not need a storefront, a sign, any inventory, an alarm system, or even a safe. There are not many requirements at all, other than you can't be a prohibited person and you can't have the FFL just to enhance your personal collection. You have to have some sort of business plan, but it can be very basic. 5. The ATF cannot come and randomly search your house at any time. They can do an inspection up to once a year, but typically it is once every three years. The first visit (which is scheduled) counts as an inspection, so they wont be able to come out for at least another year. When they do come out, they will do it at the business hours that you list, which can be just a single hour per week if you want. I was prepared for the ATF to question my intentions and have to "convince" them to let me have an FFL, but that never happened. They were very easy to deal with. I'm not saying that the ATF is my favorite government entity (far from it) but in the case of getting an FFL I really couldn't see it going smoother.  Thanks for the write up, that makes me feel better about the process.
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Posted: 12/28/2018 11:23:54 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is actually really good to know. I live in unincorporated BFE Wyoming, so zoning isn't an issue for me. The part that sticks in my craw is ITAR, but I can't really blame the ATF for that Thanks for the write up, that makes me feel better about the process. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 11:26:31 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
pretty sure kitchen FFL is pretty much a no go, have to have a store front. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 11:30:58 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, it doesn't really work like that these days. Quite often the promo prices from the online sellers are as cheap (or nearly so) as so-called "dealer price." |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 11:45:07 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
pretty sure kitchen FFL is pretty much a no go, have to have a store front. Apply for Type 01 / dealer to ATF on Form 7. Get EIN (if making an LLC, which I did - also make LLC). Get house rezoned for mixed use. (a few hours at the county office and $50, IIRC). State / Co / City business license (I'm in the county, so only state for me). Wait a few months. Have site visit with ATF IOI. Fix the application and go over signage and notification laws / requirements). Wait another month. Order A&D log book or software. Order 4473s from ATF along with a few other assorted forms (multiple sale, etc). Get license in mail. Send to Distributors Get told by about half that they won't do business with you because you aren't a brick and mortar store. F those guys. Establish accounts with those who will. Spread the word that you're in business. ??? Profit. Figure out that it's easier and more profitable to just charge $XX (I get $20) for transfers rather than keeping an inventory. Realize that you have over 50 receivers for TEOTWAWKI because the bottom fell out of the market and online retailers are selling AR receivers cheaper than you bought them 2 years ago. ETA: I have completely filled one of the blue and white A&D books from Brownell's in 3 years. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 11:47:05 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is actually really good to know. I live in unincorporated BFE Wyoming, so zoning isn't an issue for me. The part that sticks in my craw is ITAR, but I can't really blame the ATF for that Thanks for the write up, that makes me feel better about the process.Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have a type 7 that I run out of my house. A few things I have learned through the process: 1. The zoning has to be taken care of first, and this is FAR more difficult than the actual FFL. I had to have a special zoning hearing, and all of my neighbors basically showed up with pitchforks to fight it (although I ended up getting the permit anyway). 2. Once you have the zoning taken care of, the whole process with the ATF is a breeze. It's basically the same as submitting a form 1 or a form 4. 3. The ATF is generally helpful and polite. It's almost as if they WANT you to get an FFL. They were happy to process the application and answer any questions I had. 4. You do not need a storefront, a sign, any inventory, an alarm system, or even a safe. There are not many requirements at all, other than you can't be a prohibited person and you can't have the FFL just to enhance your personal collection. You have to have some sort of business plan, but it can be very basic. 5. The ATF cannot come and randomly search your house at any time. They can do an inspection up to once a year, but typically it is once every three years. The first visit (which is scheduled) counts as an inspection, so they wont be able to come out for at least another year. When they do come out, they will do it at the business hours that you list, which can be just a single hour per week if you want. I was prepared for the ATF to question my intentions and have to "convince" them to let me have an FFL, but that never happened. They were very easy to deal with. I'm not saying that the ATF is my favorite government entity (far from it) but in the case of getting an FFL I really couldn't see it going smoother. Thanks for the write up, that makes me feel better about the process.I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice - but every home/storage unit-based FFL I know completely ignores ITAR. It isn't the BATFE's job to enforce it, so they all just risk it and hope the State Department doesn't come knocking (which it isn't likely to do). |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 11:47:33 AM EDT
[#41]
25% of the FFLs in my city are home based. Some "commercial" locations don't even advertise that they hold a FFL. Machining, etc. It's a license to do business.
I've looked up the spreadsheets maintained by ATF by month and year and just perused a little bit in several states and it's clear that there are plenty of home based FFLs in the US. Even in CT, CA, etc. OP: If you were to explore the process to get a 01, I would recommend looking up your Preemption statute and see what it says. See what opinions your A.G. office holds as well. I've read opinions from (D) A.G. going back 20 years which were clearly favoring the 2A. OH has almost 3000 FFLs. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 12:42:32 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'll tell you this - if you are thinking you are going to be a kitchen table 07, ITAR will make it 100% a money losing venture. I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice - but every home/storage unit-based FFL I know completely ignores ITAR. It isn't the BATFE's job to enforce it, so they all just risk it and hope the State Department doesn't come knocking (which it isn't likely to do). ). That being said I'm sure I'll be subsidizing the FFL business from my other life as a programmer for a good while before it starts running in the black. The community I'm in has been losing local options for transfers as well, so I want to provide a low cost local transfer option- won't make money there, but I'd like to give something back to the community.
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Posted: 12/28/2018 8:22:23 PM EDT
[#43]
I assume the guns would have to be signed for when delivered. Does a home based FFL have to be home all day in case a firearm showed up from UPS? I would guess this would hinder most people with a day job from being an FFL.
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Posted: 12/28/2018 8:35:34 PM EDT
[#44]
There is a local gun shop near me that charges $5.00 transfers, so I figure why bother...
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Posted: 12/29/2018 1:34:46 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I assume the guns would have to be signed for when delivered. Does a home based FFL have to be home all day in case a firearm showed up from UPS? I would guess this would hinder most people with a day job from being an FFL. If it's something that there is no rush to receive, I'll sometimes just let the guy attempt delivery the next day. |
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Posted: 12/29/2018 3:11:06 AM EDT
[#46]
It’s doBle, but kind of a pain... People have described it.
I will tell you that a lot of the distributors won’t deal with you, some even want pictures of your store. We had a distributor cancel our account this year because were weren’t ordering enough from them, my ffl was livid. To be fair, prefers one distributor and I always order from another, so no loss. |
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