User Panel
Posted: 4/20/2023 11:35:06 AM EST
From a guy who has repeatedly gone at it with the ATF over firearms, who also happens to be a federal agent with another agency, please read the below and let it sink in. Internalize it.
I've been following this case closely since its beginning. I several times ordered FRT-15 triggers, and they were repeatedly "lost" by USPS before reaching me. I was hoping that I could get a few when I am back stateside. Well... Two days ago, the judge in the current case in the Eastern District of New York decided against transferring the case to a jurisdiction that would most certainly have been much more favorable for Rarebreed. Why? It was the judge's idea to transfer it to Texas in the first place...what gives? Well. Rare Breed previously testified to her court that New York had no personal jurisdiction because they had never sold FRT-15s or FRT-15 parts to anyone or any company in New York. They acknowledged that they had sent packages to New York, but stated the packages were from Rare Breed Firearms and that those packages just contained swag and the like. Except that the ATF then got the post office to provide shipping records, and went knocking on doors, and then presented the court with copies of receipt(s) for FRT-15 parts sent directly to New York, along with statements from Torys who told ATF they had purchased FRT-15s and received them in New York. The receipts, coupled with the USPS records, induced Rare Breed to silence on that issue. The judge was not happy. At all. So let's use this as a lesson for you all. If you ever want to, or are afraid you may involuntarily have to, go up against the government (or anyone, for that matter) in court... First, don't lie to the judge. Say this about 50 times. Don't lie to the judge. You can choose to remain silent. You can genuinely and honestly not remember something. Lying to the judge will make something that was leaning in your favor much harder to win, even if you are right about whatever the central issue is. Don't lie to the judge. Remain silent, or tell the truth, or tell part of the truth if your legal counsel recommends it. But don't tell something objectively not true to the judge. Second, despite popular belief, you can make a difference. But if you are going to put yourself out on the mat, make sure all your i's are dotted and t's crossed. If you're going to knowingly be the nail that is sticking up begging to be hammered down, don't have a bunch of dirty laundry in the closet that is going to be used against you and potentially turn your one legal fight/issue into many. Finally, never consent to someone entering your home. They can talk to you on the porch if someone shows up and wants to have a sit down chat. Unless you have war gamed and preplanned to enable a situation meant to allow them to mess up (here is looking at you, ATF dumb dumbs that showed up to confiscate stuff that I called in and talked about to you...knowing that you'd show up and overreact. We went to the same Criminal Investigator Training Program, remember?). Ultimately, going full circle back to Rare Breed- if you're going to do something that is going to get attention...it might be unpopular, and the .gov might hate it, but as long as you live squeaky clean, and leave no actual legitimate or even reasonably questionable cause for action against you, you're probably in pretty good shape. Also...for the record, I'm still in Rare Breed's corner, and I hope they win this. Though I expect it will be on appeal at this point. |
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Wait...
Are you providing legal advice to an attorney about not lying? Um.... that is like telling a duck it can't get in the water. |
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Why is this in NY? FAFT got to pick the venue?
Should that not upset the judge? |
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Quoted: Why is this in NY? FAFT got to pick the venue? Should that not upset the judge? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Did you even read the OP? Rare Breed previously testified to her court that New York had no personal jurisdiction because they had never sold FRT-15s or FRT-15 parts to anyone or any company in New York. They acknowledged that they had sent packages to New York, but stated the packages were from Rare Breed Firearms and that those packages just contained swag and the like. Except that the ATF then got the post office to provide shipping records, and went knocking on doors, and then presented the court with copies of receipt(s) for FRT-15 parts sent directly to New York, along with statements from Torys who told ATF they had purchased FRT-15s and received them in New York. |
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...as long as you live squeaky clean, and leave no actual legitimate or even reasonably questionable cause for action against you, you're probably in pretty good shape. View Quote Sadly I don't believe that anymore. There are so many laws on the books, and so many crooked prosecutors willing to purposefully misinterpret the spirit of the law, that no one is "clean". Show me the man and I'll show you the crime. Virginia is going after those guys at Charlottesville 5 years later for carrying tiki torches. They are using an old law that says "burning an object with intent to intimidate" that was intended for KKK burning crosses. |
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Quoted: Sadly I don't believe that anymore. There are so many laws on the books, and so many crooked prosecutors willing to purposefully misinterpret the spirit of the law, that no one is "clean". Show me the man and I'll show you the crime. Virginia is going after those guys at Charlottesville 5 years later for carrying tiki torches. They are using an old law that says "burning an object with intent to intimidate" that was intended for KKK burning crosses. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: ...as long as you live squeaky clean, and leave no actual legitimate or even reasonably questionable cause for action against you, you're probably in pretty good shape. Sadly I don't believe that anymore. There are so many laws on the books, and so many crooked prosecutors willing to purposefully misinterpret the spirit of the law, that no one is "clean". Show me the man and I'll show you the crime. Virginia is going after those guys at Charlottesville 5 years later for carrying tiki torches. They are using an old law that says "burning an object with intent to intimidate" that was intended for KKK burning crosses. I did say "Probably". There will always be a few loud mouths like me drawing most their fire. |
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Quoted: THey went judge shopping, then probably fount peeps who had recieved a spring or nut from rare breed to justify it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Why is this in NY? FAFT got to pick the venue? Should that not upset the judge? THey went judge shopping, then probably fount peeps who had recieved a spring or nut from rare breed to justify it. The judge wanted to move the case to a better venue, and went on record saying as much. Then reversed course after being lied to. Judges really don't like being lied to. |
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Quoted: THey went judge shopping, then probably found peeps who had recieved a spring or nut from rare breed to justify it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Why is this in NY? FAFT got to pick the venue? Should that not upset the judge? THey went judge shopping, then probably found peeps who had recieved a spring or nut from rare breed to justify it. Rare Breed knew they shouldn't sell to NY for this very reason and tried to hide this fact by lying to the judge, both were a poor strategic decision. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Why is this in NY? FAFT got to pick the venue? Should that not upset the judge? Did you even read the OP? Rare Breed previously testified to her court that New York had no personal jurisdiction because they had never sold FRT-15s or FRT-15 parts to anyone or any company in New York. They acknowledged that they had sent packages to New York, but stated the packages were from Rare Breed Firearms and that those packages just contained swag and the like. Except that the ATF then got the post office to provide shipping records, and went knocking on doors, and then presented the court with copies of receipt(s) for FRT-15 parts sent directly to New York, along with statements from Torys who told ATF they had purchased FRT-15s and received them in New York. He’s asking how it got there in the first case, not why it’s still there |
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Quoted: The judge wanted to move the case to a better venue, and went on record saying as much. Then reversed course after being lied to. Judges really don't like being lied to. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why is this in NY? FAFT got to pick the venue? Should that not upset the judge? THey went judge shopping, then probably fount peeps who had recieved a spring or nut from rare breed to justify it. The judge wanted to move the case to a better venue, and went on record saying as much. Then reversed course after being lied to. Judges really don't like being lied to. The judge wasn't going to move the case for no reason and any reason they gave the ATF would probably refute. The lie doesn't seemed to have actually changed anything. |
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That’s really unfortunate for them and me. I was wanting one of the dual mode ones.
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I heard the ATF hired Dylan Mulvaney as their new spokesperson
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Quoted: Interesting how many folks who work/worked for the government don't trust it. I worked directly for the feds for a bit over a decade. View Quote I may or may not have worked for Uncle Sugar. If I had, I'd probably say that the experience did nothing but bolster my opinion that government is nearly universally corrupt and terrible at everything it tries to do. |
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Quoted: The judge wasn't going to move the case for no reason and any reason they gave the ATF would probably refute. The lie doesn't seemed to have actually changed anything. View Quote This is what i was under the impression. Im pretty sure when this first started that judge was panned on this very forum for being an antigun leftist. An excuse was going to be found. And i still havent seen what rarebreed "sold" to newyorkers, but im willing to bet it wasnt a full-up trigger group sent to a ny address. Do we not recall how many legal specialists rb has employed, but poof, we lied to a judge? Yeah, no. Not buying it. |
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TLDR: Don't commit misdemeanors while committing felonies and get a lawyer when they knock on your door.
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Quoted: He’s asking how it got there in the first case, not why it’s still there View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why is this in NY? FAFT got to pick the venue? Should that not upset the judge? Did you even read the OP? Rare Breed previously testified to her court that New York had no personal jurisdiction because they had never sold FRT-15s or FRT-15 parts to anyone or any company in New York. They acknowledged that they had sent packages to New York, but stated the packages were from Rare Breed Firearms and that those packages just contained swag and the like. Except that the ATF then got the post office to provide shipping records, and went knocking on doors, and then presented the court with copies of receipt(s) for FRT-15 parts sent directly to New York, along with statements from Torys who told ATF they had purchased FRT-15s and received them in New York. He’s asking how it got there in the first case, not why it’s still there Which was answered, they sold stuff in NY then lied to the judge about it. |
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Quoted: That is interesting...since the judge denied ATFs request for their customer list. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: ATF has been sending out notices in northern Virginia. That is interesting...since the judge denied ATFs request for their customer list. USPS has probably given them everything they need. Even if people didn't get an FRT I bet they'll get a letter if they received anything from them. |
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Quoted: but as long as you live squeaky clean, and leave no actual legitimate or even reasonably questionable cause for action against you, you're probably in pretty good shape. View Quote |
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Don't lie is certainly the most important thing. I have a family member (not a citizen) who cannot come back to the United States, not because they may or may not have murdered someone, but because they lied on a visa application. The murder doesn't even factor into it.
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Quoted: Wait... Are you providing legal advice to an attorney about not lying? Um.... that is like telling a duck it can't get in the water. View Quote @UV18 Lying is such a dirty word, “reframing the argument in Better light to favor” is better “Your honor as a duck I had training or past experience to indicate that the substance in which I was bathing was infact …water” Or “To the best of my knowledge the lake I was in was not water but dihydrogen monoxide and thus permissible “ Or “Your honor I’m not a “duck” I self identify as a crow with a webbed feet birth defect; are you making fun of my Deformity?” |
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Quoted: This is what i was under the impression. Im pretty sure when this first started that judge was panned on this very forum for being an antigun leftist. An excuse was going to be found. And i still havent seen what rarebreed "sold" to newyorkers, but im willing to bet it wasnt a full-up trigger group sent to a ny address. Do we not recall how many legal specialists rb has employed, but poof, we lied to a judge? Yeah, no. Not buying it. View Quote Rare Breed choose to remain silent when the judge asked if they had lied...and would not comment on the evidence presented. |
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My memory would be a little hazy (on whether or not parts were sent to NY) if I didn’t keep any official records.
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Quoted: That is interesting...since the judge denied ATFs request for their customer list. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: ATF has been sending out notices in northern Virginia. That is interesting...since the judge denied ATFs request for their customer list. @Ben All mail is photographed/scanned, the from and to are kept. Pretty easy for the .gov to ask the .usps (also .gov) for “hey any packages from xyz address To NY state? Ok give me a list of all packages over 1 lb in an Excel file. “ “Great we also have letters from American Express to these addresses , suppeona American express for credit card statements for year of 2020 for that address…. Hey look rare breed charged123 Main Street, Rochester NY for $418(exact cost of a FRT plus shipping ) .. bob jokes at 123 Main Street Rochester is getting a visit.” |
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Quoted: @Ben All mail is photographed/scanned, the from and to are kept. Pretty easy for the .gov to ask the .usps (also .gov) for “hey any packages from xyz address To NY state? Ok give me a list of all packages over 1 lb in an Excel file. “ “Great we also have letters from American Express to these addresses , suppeona American express for credit card statements for year of 2020 for that address…. Hey look rare breed charged123 Main Street, Rochester NY for $418(exact cost of a FRT plus shipping ) .. bob jokes at 123 Main Street Rochester is getting a visit.” View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ATF has been sending out notices in northern Virginia. That is interesting...since the judge denied ATFs request for their customer list. @Ben All mail is photographed/scanned, the from and to are kept. Pretty easy for the .gov to ask the .usps (also .gov) for “hey any packages from xyz address To NY state? Ok give me a list of all packages over 1 lb in an Excel file. “ “Great we also have letters from American Express to these addresses , suppeona American express for credit card statements for year of 2020 for that address…. Hey look rare breed charged123 Main Street, Rochester NY for $418(exact cost of a FRT plus shipping ) .. bob jokes at 123 Main Street Rochester is getting a visit.” Tracking- just interesting that this is the first I've heard of letters going out other than onsie twosie. |
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Unless it's FISA/FISC then lie to the judge all you want and get rewarded for it...
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Quoted: Don't lie is certainly the most important thing. I have a family member (not a citizen) who cannot come back to the United States, not because they may or may not have murdered someone, but because they lied on a visa application. The murder doesn't even factor into it. View Quote why hasn't your family member simply walked across the southern border? |
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I can recall precious few times (in my own investigatory experience) where someone willingly speaking about their involvement in an alleged crime truly HELPED exonerate them. At best, I got both sides of the story and forwarded to the SAO, who decided upon reading the entire case file that trying the case was not worth their effort and round filed it.
Two lessons from said experience: 1. None of those times came from a courtroom, they were all on-site where the original call for service/crime was alleged to have occurred (or the roadside where the stop was made). 2. Federal agencies / prosecutors do not have the lesser budgets and time constraints that district state attorneys have to contend with - and if you are a nail begging to be hammered, they'll purposefully choose you over anyone else. |
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Quoted: That is interesting...since the judge denied ATFs request for their customer list. View Quote The judge denied the ATF's request for the customer list from the business, sure. Who does the business use for tracking their shipping labels and packages? Something like Stamps.com, I'm assuming. Doubt they would be unwilling to give up the list when pressured by ATF agents, especially because most normies think "machine guns" or "machine gun parts" should be illegal to own or use, regardless of whether they actually are illegal to own/use/possess under whatever specific circumstances (legal NFA weapons, post-samples, etc) |
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